Does being a god kinda suck in OotS?

[mashlagoo1982]

As the title says, does being a god in the OotS universe kinda suck?

Sure, you have all your godly powers and the ability of creation on your own to a limited degree.

However, to accomplish anything of lasting value you need to work with other gods.
That isn't bad by itself, but the imposed rules seem like a pain.
We saw a small amount of that during the godsmoot, and all that just seemed tedious imo.

Even if all the above wasn't an issue, you still have the caveat where belief can shape your being.
Not your own belief though... the belief of other creatures that basically act as a source to sustain your existence.

I imagine this as walking through a grocery store and passing near some corn.
Suddenly my toes turn into corn kernels.
That seems like scary movie material.
I can't think of an upside that would negate that horror too me.

I feel like there is an internet joke/comparison that can be made... but I am stuck on corn kernel toes.

[littlebum2002]

Whats to stop a deity from creating a race of people who think of them as the most powerful deity in the world? would that belief eventually turn into more power for them?

[Ionathus]

Hmm, I'd guess it probably does suck in some ways! But there are also certainly advantages like infinite memory (Thor: "I remember everyone who's ever worshipped me"), literally godlike stats, and the power to shape the raw threads of creation.

As far as the Godsmoot and similar procedures go, I'd probably compare it to legislatures and courts. Sure, there are a lot of procedures and red tape, and you have to dot all the "i"s and cross all the "t"s, but in the end, a lot of people in those roles still seem to get things done and enjoy their jobs.

The way Thor & Loki talk about the belief stuff (and how Odin behaves because of it) has led me to suspect that belief has a strong impact, but can't change your core self. It's more like a passing mood or, in Odin's case, temporary delirium. And the changes would be slow, because it usually takes a long time for entire demographics of mortals to change their beliefs.

Even still, I agree it would be very unnerving to have these traits and moods put upon me by the people who supposedly worship me. I can picture a reluctant god, kept divine by followers they didn't want. Fairly certain there's an SCP for that...

Edit: ninja


Whats to stop a deity from creating a race of people who think of them as the most powerful deity in the world? would that belief eventually turn into more power for them?

I figure because the other pantheons have to collaborate to create mortals, a single god can't "go rogue" and create their own. Which is why gods like Hel have to twist the rules and circumstances to manufacture a condition that can tilt the balance of souls in their favor.

[The Pilgrim]

As a God, you still have your demiplane full of servants to do whatever you feel like with it. And clerics to spread the belief about yourself that you exactly like.

The cleric system to spread belief is not a perfect plan, but it beats being a peasant and dying out of famine because of a random drought.

And heck, if it were so important for Thor to be a redhead instead of a blonde, he would have instructed his clerics to burn anyone depicting him as a blonde at the stake.

[mashlagoo1982]

The way Thor & Loki talk about the belief stuff (and how Odin behaves because of it) has led me to suspect that belief has a strong impact, but can't change your core self. It's more like a passing mood or, in Odin's case, temporary delirium. And the changes would be slow, because it usually takes a long time for entire demographics of mortals to change their beliefs.

Even still, I agree it would be very unnerving to have these traits and moods put upon me by the people who supposedly worship me. I can picture a reluctant god, kept divine by followers they didn't want. Fairly certain there's an SCP for that...



This is exactly what I was thinking about when the idea of belief shaping reality horrified me (Odin incident).

Now I want to know what SCP you are referencing.

[Ionathus]

Now I want to know what SCP you are referencing.

Me, too. I'm positive it exists! But where...

[mashlagoo1982]

Me, too. I'm positive it exists! But where...

If there isn't already, there needs to be one now.

[Metastachydium]

I figure because the other pantheons have to collaborate to create mortals, a single god can't "go rogue" and create their own. Which is why gods like Hel have to twist the rules and circumstances to manufacture a condition that can tilt the balance of souls in their favor.

Yeah, I never quite understood how and why the rest of the panthgeon let the Hel–Thor bet through.

[Silly Name]

Whats to stop a deity from creating a race of people who think of them as the most powerful deity in the world? would that belief eventually turn into more power for them?

Thor explained (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1141.html) that when a god creates something on their own, that thing is basically an illusion, ephemeral and dependant on the whims of the creator. Mortals, created by gods pooling their different quiddities together, are real and stable and indipendent. And only real, stable mortals can generate belief and devotion.


Yeah, I never quite understood how and why the rest of the panthgeon let the Hel–Thor bet through.

I mean, the bet probably didn't look that harmful to the rest of the gods, in the sense that it didn't seem like it'd bring harm to any of them individually. If Hel agrees, of her own free will, to handicap herself, why should Freja or Baldr care? Loki looks like to be the only god of the Northern pantheon who genuinely cares for Hel, and he has made it clear that if what started as a divine prank ends up killing his daughter, he will take it out on Thor.

[RatElemental]

I'm pretty sure "my god is the best god!" is a thing literally every mortal who has chosen a patron deity thinks, so even if the beliefs of mere mortals could affect the power a god possesses (and opposed to, say, raw number of souls that pass to them) it's kind of a wash: every believer believes their god is the best god, or they'd have picked a different god.

[Ionathus]

I mean, the bet probably didn't look that harmful to the rest of the gods, in the sense that it didn't seem like it'd bring harm to any of them individually. If Hel agrees, of her own free will, to handicap herself, why should Freja or Baldr care? Loki looks like to be the only god of the Northern pantheon who genuinely cares for Hel, and he has made it clear that if what started as a divine prank ends up killing his daughter, he will take it out on Thor.

Maybe they didn't get involved because it was Hel's turn, Hel's choice (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0274.html)?

[hungrycrow]

I mean, the bet probably didn't look that harmful to the rest of the gods, in the sense that it didn't seem like it'd bring harm to any of them individually. If Hel agrees, of her own free will, to handicap herself, why should Freja or Baldr care? Loki looks like to be the only god of the Northern pantheon who genuinely cares for Hel, and he has made it clear that if what started as a divine prank ends up killing his daughter, he will take it out on Thor.

Giving Hel default dominion over an entire race would have been pretty unbalanced in Hel's favor, though. I guess all the other gods just assumed she'd lose the bet, and didn't think about what would happen when the world inevitably ended?

[Anymage]

Giving Hel default dominion over an entire race would have been pretty unbalanced in Hel's favor, though. I guess all the other gods just assumed she'd lose the bet, and didn't think about what would happen when the world inevitably ended?

With three big names in the pantheon signing onto it plus the honor loophole (which I'd guess many gods saw would get heavy use), I could see many of them not thinking it was worth the effort for one race out of many. Although yeah, they did probably have a big blind spot for what would probably happen if/when they had to pull the plug on the world. If I had to justify that, the last world got snarled hard and most of the gods were thinking of that when they all okayed the deal. Conditional default dominion is less of an issue if there is no end-of-the-world windfall for everyone.

More generally on topic, gods generally have enough influence over their own flocks to generally maintain whatever concepts they consider core to themselves, plus general ideological inertia. You aren't going to find a version of Loki who cannot lie in any reasonable timescale. (On an unreasonable timescale? Maybe, sure. Any being who had to exist through countless eons would likely change due to the sheer amount of experience, so it wouldn't just be different strains of belief changing the god.) Do you occasionally get a sucky outcome like Odin, where followers of the rest of the pantheon will see you in a way you dislike? Sure. Humans can also be degraded due to either accident or malice. Societies and governments can be undermined through accidents or malice. Nobody says that any of these organizations, or life as a human, are intrinsically sucky because they can be affected by outside forces.

[The Pilgrim]

Giving Hel default dominion over an entire race would have been pretty unbalanced in Hel's favor, though. I guess all the other gods just assumed she'd lose the bet, and didn't think about what would happen when the world inevitably ended?

Guess that all the other Gods just realized that not being able to make clerics among the living was a very bad idea.

[Dr.Zero]

I suppose it does, a bit.
Anyway, like Tarquin would say, you can't concentrate on the negatives.
If you don't need to work, don't get sick, spend all the day drinking, LARPing battles against Loki and Surtur, pawning Sif, and knocking up fertility goddesses now and then, you're golden, in my book.

[Silly Name]

Giving Hel default dominion over an entire race would have been pretty unbalanced in Hel's favor, though. I guess all the other gods just assumed she'd lose the bet, and didn't think about what would happen when the world inevitably ended?

As has been mentioned, Hel also gave up on making clerics for this world - which, still going by what Thor explained (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1144.html), does mean she gets basically no Worship: "She's been filling up on empty Dedications without any fresh Worship".

I expect most other gods realised this and this is why the bet wasn't contested. Loki himself (https://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots1177.html) thought this was just going to spice things up, and didn't foresee the possibility of Hel claiming every dwarf who would die in the event of the gods destroying the world, thus gaining a bunch of power - but he's still worried she may not make it to the next world if the Snarl is released.

[KorvinStarmast]

However, to accomplish anything of lasting value you need to work with other gods. And? how is that a bad thing?

That isn't bad by itself, but the imposed rules seem like a pain. Getting good grades in 'gets along well with others' would seem to be necessary for a god in this structure to be successful.

This makes them a lot like any pantheon of gods in a wide variety of deital structures. I don't see the issue. The greatest curse of being an OoTS god is (1) immortality and (2) living with the fact that they are destroyable (which makes them a lot like Tolkien's elves) and (3) living with the fact that they, the gods, screwed up and created the mechanism of their own demise: the Snarl.

There are about six dozen Real Life parallels I can shoehorn that into, but I won't as we have forum rules. Put another way, being Thor or Marduk is still better than being Oona, Minrah, Roy, Haley, etcetera.

[Finagle]

I always looked at being a god like being root on a computer. You can do anything you like, within the bounds of your metaphysics and reality. The lives of individual processes don't really concern you, but you can and do get very interested in the lives of a few processes. You can and will kill processes when they annoy you, start them up again, and think nothing of it. Or not start them up again and think nothing of that, either.

But if you don't have your processes running, you don't have much of a system to lord over, do you? The whole shebang exists only to serve your interests, and if it doesn't you can reformat and reinstall a new system (destroy the world and start over). But nonetheless you are still bound by rules beyond your control, even if you are a system programmer. I think it's a good metaphor that goes a long way to explaining what a god must be like.

[Emanick]

I always looked at being a god like being root on a computer. You can do anything you like, within the bounds of your metaphysics and reality. The lives of individual processes don't really concern you, but you can and do get very interested in the lives of a few processes. You can and will kill processes when they annoy you, start them up again, and think nothing of it. Or not start them up again and think nothing of that, either.

But if you don't have your processes running, you don't have much of a system to lord over, do you? The whole shebang exists only to serve your interests, and if it doesn't you can reformat and reinstall a new system (destroy the world and start over). But nonetheless you are still bound by rules beyond your control, even if you are a system programmer. I think it's a good metaphor that goes a long way to explaining what a god must be like.

Sounds like a pretty good analogy to me. In principle, you might be able to reformulate the rules that govern how you are bound. But if you like the way they are set, you’re probably not going to tinker with them again, and so you reach an equilibrium where, even if in principle you are capable of changing your nature and abilities and the rules that govern it/them, in practice you see no need to, so those rules de facto restrict you from doing certain things.