Should a Vampire be a CR 13 Creature?

[Thunderous Mojo]

Unoriginal's Tactical challenge thread, drew me to consider again if CR 13 is the correct challenge assessment for a 5e Vampire.

Now the Vampire is difficult to assess by the DMG Monster chart...due to it's Charm Power, Mist Form, and the difficulty in killing a vampire so that it never arises again.

The MM Vampire has the AC of a CR 8 creature.
The vampire has the Effective Hit Points of a CR 10 creature.

A Vampire has an attack modifier equal to a CR 16 creature.
Due to bounded accuracy, this is only a +1 away from a CR 11 creature.

A Vampire that uses all their actions to make Unarmed Strikes does damage on par with a CR 4 creature. If the vamp is lucky and does maximum damage on each hit, the damage is comparable to a CR 10 creature.

A Vampire that is able to make 2 Unarmed Strikes and 2 Bite attacks
is dealing DPR in the range of a CR 7 creature. If the Vampire does maximum damage on all hits, this is equivalent to a CR 16 creature.

The Save DC for the Vampire's Charm power is at the expected challenge level for a CR 11 creature.

Now the DMG chart has 'issues'. In a Flatland style battle in a huge, flat,
empty room...the Vampire is dealing less damage than a CR 8 Young Green Dragon. The Vampire, also, has a lower AC score than the young green dragon.

Legendary Resistance, Regeneration and Mist Form certainly should be factored in. Allowing for these abilities alone to count as 3 CR boost...brings a Vampire closer to being a CR 11 creature.

What do others think?

[Amnestic]

I plugged the vampire's stats into a 5e CR calculator tool (not sure if I can link it?) and it came out with CR13, so they seem to have hit the nail on the head.

It didn't account for the rat/bat swarm/wolf summon ability either, which the vampire will probably have every time you encounter them, or near enough, and it didn't have the legendary actions, so it might even be under CR. Probably not though, it's probably about right.

[RogueJK]

Also, IIRC, the CR calculations don't take into account magical weapons, because in 5E magic items are optional, so it's not assumed that the party will have access to magic items by a certain level like in prior editions.

So if your party is decked out in magic gear, that could make it easier, versus having to expend resources to overcome the B/P/S Resistance.

[da newt]

The calculation is made even more difficult as defeating a vampire in combat is very different from killing one permanently.

Do you earn XP if it drops to 0 hp and then just goes off to heal up ...

[Unoriginal]

The calculation is made even more difficult as defeating a vampire in combat is very different from killing one permanently.

Do you earn XP if it drops to 0 hp and then just goes off to heal up ...

You get XP for defeating the challenge, not for killing people.

At least in principle. Some DMs rule differently.

[Silly Name]

Do you earn XP if it drops to 0 hp and then just goes off to heal up ...

Yes. XP is the reward for winning/solving an encounter, no matter how. If you rout the orc warband by killing the leader, you still get the full XP for the encounter even if the other ten orcs are alive and well and healing up.

[Ding]

I'm inclined to agree that CR 13 might be slightly high for a vampire. In a campaign I played a while back, our party was split and my Vengeance Paladin 9 and one other PC (a moon druid, I think?) were able to take one out 2v1 in a close quarters battle. Pretty easily, actually. Granted, our Wisdom save bonuses were both at least +9, I had most of my smites left to counter his regeneration, and the druid had wildshape, but I think any monster that can be handily defeated by two level 9 PCs is hard to sell as CR 13. Even factoring in the difficulty in permanently killing a vampire, I'd also put it around CR 11 if it was up to me. The Misty Escape feature makes for a great recurring villain, but in a single encounter (which to me is what CR should generally reflect) it doesn't make much of a difference.

I'm not hating on the vampire, though. It's one of my favorite baddies.

[Unoriginal]

I'm inclined to agree that CR 13 might be slightly high for a vampire. In a campaign I played a while back, our party was split and my Vengeance Paladin 9 and one other PC (a moon druid, I think?) were able to take one out 2v1 in a close quarters battle. Pretty easily, actually. Granted, our Wisdom save bonuses were both at least +9, I had most of my smites left to counter his regeneration, and the druid had wildshape, but I think any monster that can be handily defeated by two level 9 PCs is hard to sell as CR 13. Even factoring in the difficulty in permanently killing a vampire, I'd also put it around CR 11 if it was up to me. The Misty Escape feature makes for a great recurring villain, but in a single encounter (which to me is what CR should generally reflect) it doesn't make much of a difference.

I'm not hating on the vampire, though. It's one of my favorite baddies.

Having a Paladin in the team make fighting a vampire much easier.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Having a Paladin in the team make fighting a vampire much easier.
Any reliable source of Radiant Damage is a significant threat. Lightbringer, a +1 mace, that adds a 1d6 Radiant damage, and is found in Wave Echo Cave, (Starter Set or Essentials Set), also stops a vamp's Regeneration.


Also, IIRC, the CR calculations don't take into account magical weapons, because in 5E magic items are optional, so it's not assumed that the party will have access to magic items by a certain level like in prior editions.


While the above is true, it is also misleading. By 6th or 7th level, in most
WOTC products, I would estimate at least 3 ensorcelled weapons will have been discovered by the party.

In most home games, I think it reasonable to assume that most martial characters, will either have a means of making their attacks count as magical, have access to the Magic Weapon or other spells, or just have a magic weapon by 7th or 8th level.

Not every game will be like this, some may even have no magic nor spells, but no magic games like that will be quite exceptional.

Magic Resistance is flavor text, essentially. 🧛🏻*♀️

[Amnestic]

Magic Resistance is flavor text, essentially.

One thing is that (relative) scarcity of magic weapons makes hirelings less effective at higher levels. You might be able to hire 50 dudes, but you can't always equip them with 50 +1 crossbows.

[Thunderous Mojo]

While true, leading a troop of soldiers against a vampire is probably doomed to failure.

Just like Dracula, on the ship to England, the vampire will just start picking off troops. Soldiers, Veterans, even a gladiator, have a 75% of becoming charmed by a vampire.

Any Hirelings one takes are most likely going to be spellcasters. Folks able to cast Prot from Good/Evil on the party, and then sit safely inside a Daern's Instant Fortress.😀

[Greywander]

Now the Vampire is difficult to assess by the DMG Monster chart...due to it's Charm Power, Mist Form, and the difficulty in killing a vampire so that it never arises again.

The calculation is made even more difficult as defeating a vampire in combat is very different from killing one permanently.
IMO, it's a mistake to think of CR as purely a measure of how strong a monster is. That's reading more into CR than you're meant to. The purpose of CR, as I understand it, is purely in terms of how hard it is to fight them. Imagine you're going through a dungeon, you walk into a room and a vampire is there. You kill the vampire and never see them again. They were nothing more than just another monster you needed to fight to get through the dungeon. How hard was that fight? That's what CR is measuring.

There are a lot of other factors that won't figure in to CR that can make a monster stronger or weaker. Non-combat abilities like charm, or the ability to come back to life when killed. There are many such abilities. This can allow a lower CR monster to serve as a much greater threat than their CR would suggest, not because they're hard to defeat in a fight, but because they have other abilities that aren't used in combat that make them more broadly dangerous in an RP sense.

An intellect devourer is a classic example of a demonic spider (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicSpiders), making them a pain to deal with in combat, but how much more dangerous can they be when they start stealing the bodies of major NPCs and allies? That's not figured into their CR. You could easily have an intellect devourer as a BBEG who just keeps stealing the bodies of important NPCs and then manipulating people (including the party) to do their bidding. Once cornered, it wouldn't be too difficult to defeat in combat, but cornering it in the first place would be exceedingly tricky.

So, I think CR is really only meant for one-off encounters, where you fight the monster and then never see them again. If the monster is a recurring character, that's going to change how powerful they are, as they'll have more opportunity to use their non-combat abilities. There's also a difference between randomly encountering a monster in a dungeon, and meeting a monster who is properly integrated into the plot. For example, a vampire will likely have several NPCs who are charmed by them, making it difficult to attack the vampire without making these NPCs hostile to you. The vampire might even be a well-liked pillar of the community, so even without charm it would still make a lot of people angry at you if you attack them. And that's assuming that you've already figured out that they're a vampire, which might take some time and require overcoming some challenges.

All this to say that a vampire might be more dangerous in an RP sense than their CR suggests, and non-combat abilities probably shouldn't be figured into their CR. CR should really only be a measure of how hard they are to fight, because anything beyond that is going to be hugely subjective and dependent on how the DM uses them.

[Unoriginal]

IMO, it's a mistake to think of CR as purely a measure of how strong a monster is. That's reading more into CR than you're meant to. The purpose of CR, as I understand it, is purely in terms of how hard it is to fight them. Imagine you're going through a dungeon, you walk into a room and a vampire is there. You kill the vampire and never see them again. They were nothing more than just another monster you needed to fight to get through the dungeon. How hard was that fight? That's what CR is measuring.

There are a lot of other factors that won't figure in to CR that can make a monster stronger or weaker. Non-combat abilities like charm, or the ability to come back to life when killed. There are many such abilities. This can allow a lower CR monster to serve as a much greater threat than their CR would suggest, not because they're hard to defeat in a fight, but because they have other abilities that aren't used in combat that make them more broadly dangerous in an RP sense.

An intellect devourer is a classic example of a demonic spider (https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/DemonicSpiders), making them a pain to deal with in combat, but how much more dangerous can they be when they start stealing the bodies of major NPCs and allies? That's not figured into their CR. You could easily have an intellect devourer as a BBEG who just keeps stealing the bodies of important NPCs and then manipulating people (including the party) to do their bidding. Once cornered, it wouldn't be too difficult to defeat in combat, but cornering it in the first place would be exceedingly tricky.

So, I think CR is really only meant for one-off encounters, where you fight the monster and then never see them again. If the monster is a recurring character, that's going to change how powerful they are, as they'll have more opportunity to use their non-combat abilities. There's also a difference between randomly encountering a monster in a dungeon, and meeting a monster who is properly integrated into the plot. For example, a vampire will likely have several NPCs who are charmed by them, making it difficult to attack the vampire without making these NPCs hostile to you. The vampire might even be a well-liked pillar of the community, so even without charm it would still make a lot of people angry at you if you attack them. And that's assuming that you've already figured out that they're a vampire, which might take some time and require overcoming some challenges.

All this to say that a vampire might be more dangerous in an RP sense than their CR suggests, and non-combat abilities probably shouldn't be figured into their CR. CR should really only be a measure of how hard they are to fight, because anything beyond that is going to be hugely subjective and dependent on how the DM uses them.

CR is mostly the average of how much damage the creature can inflict and of how much damage it can take, with very little impact from anything else. Tactical and thematic concerns, as well as powers that aren't related to combat, are not covered by it (at least on the individual level).

For example, the Devil variants which can summon other Devils have the same CR as the Devils who can't do that.

Another example, as you mentioned, the Intellect Devourer. While its abilities make it an extremely nasty ambusher and can make it an even nastier battle if it can take over a strong being, in a straight fight against 4 lvl 2 PCs it will likely get shredded quickly, possibly hurting one PC's INT score.

[PhoenixPhyre]

By the book, the vampire has the following values:

Base HP: 144
HP Adjustment : 186 (120 from regeneration + 30 from Legendary Resistance + 1/4 of base HP from resistances in tier 3)
AC: 16
Total Defensive CR: 17.5 (18 adjusted downward for low AC)

Base DPR: 50 (bite + unarmed + LA bite + LA unarmed)
ATK: +9
Offensive CR: 8.5 (7 adjusted upward to 8.5 by higher ATK).

Total CR = (17.5 + 8.5)/2 = 13.

And for a baseline party, that is exactly right. Tough, but not a particular HP threat at level 10-11 or so (they're boss monsters, so figure CR ~ Level + 2-3). Their threat is more from the charm/etc.

Remember what CR is designed for and what it isn't. The further you depart from the baseline, the less it has meaning. On purpose, as intended. It's a floor, acting as a first-pass "hey, will this thing obliterate my party or get obliterated by my party" check. That's all its designed for, and it fits that bill pretty well.

[Dork_Forge]

It's hard to judge any creature in isolation but CR13 seems about right, my party fought against a vampire at levels 10 and 11 (I think?) and both times they obliterated it, with the hp, ac and to hit/damage of the Vamp cranked up. They were a 3 PC party of a Paladin, Glamour Bard and Barbarian/Rogue with plenty of magical weaponry.

However, if you swap out the Paladin for a Fighter or Ranger? Very different story, same as if you reduce the magic items they have. Now they're a very buff level 12 and I tend to look for creatures by CR=level +1/+2 and then typically tweak things so that the fights feel meaningful.

Table context: They go through between 1-3 combats per day, but often expend some resources in social/exploration encounters too

[Kemev]

empty room...the Vampire is dealing less damage than a CR 8 Young Green Dragon. The Vampire, also, has a lower AC score than the young green dragon.

Dragons are a rough comparison... they tend to be very strong for their CR.

I feel like vampires have a swing-y power level. If the party starts failing saves vs Charm, the encounter can go really badly really quickly. This is especially true if the vampire's in a location where it can use its mobility and 120-ft darkvision to best effect (ie, trying the charm someone, then using legendary actions + Spider Climb to retreat out of sight or reach).

But like other people have said, if the party has plenty of magic weapons, ready access to radiant damage, etc., then it goes pretty quickly against the vampire.

I'd also throw out there that it's meant to be a boss encounter; the party probably shouldn't get to fight it directly (at least, not at first). It makes more sense both mechanically in terms of encounter building and thematically in terms of session building to put it as the capstone to the adventuring day... the party has to get past some charmed villagers, a crypt crawl with traps and lesser undead, some vampire spawn, and then the vampire in its lair with its swarms of pets for the climax fight. So if you're the DM, hopefully your players aren't showing up with full resources (unless they've been especially clever/lucky).

[Thunderous Mojo]

Dragons are a rough comparison... they tend to be very strong for their CR.


I don't disagree with this, but that is actually why I used the comparison to the young green dragon.

A Vampire has an Offensive CR of 8. The young green damage has a higher DPR output.

This conforms to expectations.

My contention is that a vampires's ample defensive array, is not worth 5 levels of CR adjustment.

Anecdotal evidence seems to be converging on level 10 being the sweetspot for the appropriate balance of tension and risk/reward when facing vampires.

Many people run 5e CR erroneously like 3e's CR system.
They believe, the CR is a level gate for when the monster should appear. They mistakenly, believe a CR 13 creature is a challenge for the whole 13th level party, and cry "5e is easy mode".

[Valmark]

I don't disagree with this, but that is actually why I used the comparison to the young green dragon.

A Vampire has an Offensive CR of 8. The young green damage has a higher DPR output.

This conforms to expectations.

My contention is that a vampires's ample defensive array, is not worth 5 levels of CR adjustment.

Anecdotal evidence seems to be converging on level 10 being the sweetspot for the appropriate balance of tension and risk/reward when facing vampires.

Many people run 5e CR erroneously like 3e's CR system.
They believe, the CR is a level gate for when the monster should appear. They mistakenly, believe a CR 13 creature is a challenge for the whole 13th level party, and cry "5e is easy mode".

Well, to be fair if people think CR 13 is a challenge for a 13th level party it's on them, not the vampire. CR equal to the party's level means that it should consume a few resources and that's it.

A vampire can accomplish that.

[MaxWilson]

They believe, the CR is a level gate for when the monster should appear. They mistakenly, believe a CR 13 creature is a challenge for the whole 13th level party, and cry "5e is easy mode".

It is easy mode because 5E discourages players (and DMs) from throwing a level 13 party at four CR 13 vampires for an actual challenge. The DMG tells you that you're 4x over the Deadly Threshold at that point, and at 148% of your total daily XP budget in one encounter, and somehow people get the idea that you shouldn't do stuff like that even if you play the vampires straightforwardly instead of Tucker's Vampires, but in reality you totally can and it's fine and Harry Dresden faces worse all the time. (For a Harry Dresden experience make it five vampires and Drakul.)

And 5E also makes sure that whatever consequences do arise, like death, are easily and cheaply reversible with no long-term consequences.

Edit: also, the DMG warns you against using CR 13 monsters against PCs under level 13, but again, best to ignore that warning, especially after Tier 1.

[MrStabby]

You get XP for defeating the challenge, not for killing people.

At least in principle. Some DMs rule differently.

I would question if this is defeaing the vampire. If the vampire is attacking and counting on regeneration as part of it's strategy, and you force it to follow its strategy and don't really cost it anything - can it be called a victory? If there is no purpose to being left holding possession of the battleground, what have you won?






In general my experience is tht vampires are tough in unexpected... a bit of a cakewalk if expected. Shadowy figure in the ruins accosted as if an ordinary footpad... ouch. No sunlight effects prepared, just normal amounts of radiant damage, no effects to stop it escaping and regenerating and returning... it's going to be tough to win. The Vampire using hit and run attacks harrying the party through the wreckage, charming as needed, summoning support when the opportunity for an ambush presents itself... an unprepared party is pretty doomed. With shapechange, spiderclimb, legendary saves, regeneration, legendary action moves and so on the vampire is hard to pin down in a fair fight. And it is likely to spot the party before the party spots it with 120ft darkvision.

The capacity of a well run vampire to dismantle a party should not be underestimated if it can pick the battleground.



On the other hand, if the party knows they are facing a vampire and come prepared with a source of sunlight, a plan for stopping them getting a way, a way to protect the party from the charm effect and they have prepared some contingency spells like restoration effects and kept back some spell slots... then yeah, the raw stats of the Vampire are not enough to make it that much of a fight.

[Unoriginal]

I would question if this is defeaing the vampire. If the vampire is attacking and counting on regeneration as part of it's strategy, and you force it to follow its strategy and don't really cost it anything - can it be called a victory? If there is no purpose to being left holding possession of the battleground, what have you won?

A vampire who want to flee in mist form can do so on their first turn. A vampire who stays and fight has a reason to do it. It may be as simple as "the PCs pissed them off", or "they're protecting something they don't want the PCs to reach", or "the vampire can't afford to not beat the PCs right now if they want their plans to succeed". Regardless, managing to foil the vampire is a victory for the PCs and a defeat for the vampire.




In general my experience is tht vampires are tough in unexpected... a bit of a cakewalk if expected. Shadowy figure in the ruins accosted as if an ordinary footpad... ouch. No sunlight effects prepared, just normal amounts of radiant damage, no effects to stop it escaping and regenerating and returning... it's going to be tough to win. The Vampire using hit and run attacks harrying the party through the wreckage, charming as needed, summoning support when the opportunity for an ambush presents itself... an unprepared party is pretty doomed. With shapechange, spiderclimb, legendary saves, regeneration, legendary action moves and so on the vampire is hard to pin down in a fair fight. And it is likely to spot the party before the party spots it with 120ft darkvision.

The capacity of a well run vampire to dismantle a party should not be underestimated if it can pick the battleground.



On the other hand, if the party knows they are facing a vampire and come prepared with a source of sunlight, a plan for stopping them getting a way, a way to protect the party from the charm effect and they have prepared some contingency spells like restoration effects and kept back some spell slots... then yeah, the raw stats of the Vampire are not enough to make it that much of a fight.

That is quite true. CR is not impacted by that kind of tactical considerations, though.

[MrStabby]

A vampire who want to flee in mist form can do so on their first turn. A vampire who stays and fight has a reason to do it. It may be as simple as "the PCs pissed them off", or "they're protecting something they don't want the PCs to reach", or "the vampire can't afford to not beat the PCs right now if they want their plans to succeed". Regardless, managing to foil the vampire is a victory for the PCs and a defeat for the vampire.


But the reason the vampire might be fighting now, is to drain resources. I mean if the vampire is trying to stop the party pushing further into its lair by forcing them to pull back, an encounter that the vampire survives to regenerate from and that consumes party resources is a victory for the vampire. Each encounter like this increases the odds that the party wont make it to the end. The party playing I to the Vampires plan should not count as a victory.

[Unoriginal]

But the reason the vampire might be fighting now, is to drain resources. I mean if the vampire is trying to stop the party pushing further into its lair by forcing them to pull back, an encounter that the vampire survives to regenerate from and that consumes party resources is a victory for the vampire. Each encounter like this increases the odds that the party wont make it to the end. The party playing I to the Vampires plan should not count as a victory.

If the vampire is brought to 0 HPs and leave to regenerate in their grave, it is a victory for the PCs. No matter what the vampire has planned being forced to stay put and regenerate in a vulnerable state is not a victory for the vampire(at least not a battlefield victory).

If the vampire flees to avoid the above scenario and avoid picking a fight with the PCs afterward, then it is also a victory for the PCs.

If the vampire is *choosing* to leave when they could still have fought more and come back to harass the party, then yeah, it's not a victory for the PCs, because the encounter isn't over.

[Thunderous Mojo]

Well, to be fair if people think CR 13 is a challenge for a 13th level party it's on them, not the vampire. CR equal to the party's level means that it should consume a few resources and that's it.

A vampire can accomplish that.

Any creature or trap can accomplish depleting a PC group's resources.

That is a low bar. Ravenloft was created as a response to a random vampire encounter in a dungeon, that underwhelmed Tracy Hickman.
5 wraiths is worth nearly the same amount of XP as a Vampire.

Valmark, I think you might be overestimating how many people read game books cover to cover. My experience is that most people, do not read RPG books cover to cover.

(My experience is also once people get older and have kids and other restraints on time this becomes exacerbated)


The capacity of a well run vampire to dismantle a party should not be underestimated if it can pick the battleground.


That is true for every creature, even a swarm of flumphs.

Vampires have always been fairly weak in brute combat terms. What kept vampires as monsters that any sane adventuring group would run from if ill prepared, was the two character level drain that the vamp inflicted.

A 10 point reduction to one's maximum hit points per bite isn't the most frightening aspect of the 5e vampire, the charm power is. The DC of the charm power is also, the aspect that makes it most difficult to use it with 5th level groups.

Now if a vampire's bite also inflicted a level of exhaustion, then the vampire is closer to CR 13.

[Kemev]

My contention is that a vampires's ample defensive array, is not worth 5 levels of CR adjustment.

Ok, but so far I don't think anyone's arguing that it's the defensive abilities that are worth +5 CR (unless I missed it?). The consensus ability that makes vampires dangerous is their Charm attack (which has a relatively high DC at 17 -- the odds are against most characters without proficiency in Wis saving throws making it), coupled with its mobility and minion swarms. These aren't just defensive abilities; they actively harm the party.



Anecdotal evidence seems to be converging on level 10 being the sweetspot for the appropriate balance of tension and risk/reward when facing vampires.

Yes, the vampire is a deadly encounter (ie, the party risks defeat) for a 4 person party of level 10 characters. That's not just an anecdote; that's literally the encounter building table in the DMG. Or if you prefer the XGE encounter building table, a CR 13 monster is a satisfying encounter for a 5-player party of level 10 characters, or a 4-player party of level 11 characters.



Many people run 5e CR erroneously like 3e's CR system.

Sales data suggests that most D&D players have never played 3e, so I'm not how that could be true.

[MaxWilson]

Yes, the vampire is a deadly encounter (ie, the party risks defeat) for a 4 person party of level 10 characters. That's not just an anecdote; that's literally the encounter building table in the DMG.

AFB so trusting Kobold.club, but I believe that the encounter building table in the DMG says that a level 10 party of four has a Hard threshold of 7600 adjusted XP and a Deadly threshold of 11,200 adjusted XP, making a 10,000 XP vampire a Hard encounter, not a Deadly one. Maybe you're thinking of a level 9 party?

[Thunderous Mojo]

Sales data suggests that most D&D players have never played 3e, so I'm not how that could be true.

Read this board.😀 Just the other day someone made a post where it was clear that they were under the impression that a CR 4 creature was meant to be a challenge for 4 PCs.

Wether or not the person played 3e, is irrelevant to the fact, that is how 3e's CR chart worked, and a misunderstanding of how 5e's CR system works.

I have no quibble if you want to change the name I bestowed upon a phenomenon that is easily seen on this board, Reddit, and many other spaces.

If you are instead stating that there is no such phenomenon of persons misinterpreting 5e's CR nomenclature as an indicator for a group challenge, then alas I do have a quibble with that.

Again, the internet abounds with examples of precisely, this exact misunderstanding.

So do you believe that the vampire's Charm Ability is worth 5 levels of CR increase?
If so, Why?

[Valmark]

Any creature or trap can accomplish depleting a PC group's resources.

That is a low bar. Ravenloft was created as a response to a random vampire encounter in a dungeon, that underwhelmed Tracy Hickman.
5 wraiths is worth nearly the same amount of XP as a Vampire.

Valmark, I think you might be overestimating how many people read game books cover to cover. My experience is that most people, do not read RPG books cover to cover.

(My experience is also once people get older and have kids and other restraints on time this becomes exacerbated)

Tbh, I don't do that either unless I need to know everything about some detail (and even then I just search for keywords). Besides, Gamebooks that I red were... Notably bad at making encounters anyway.

It's not that low. Weak threats will have an hard time scratching such a party and will need tactical thinking and whatnot- a vampire charging in swinging might just put in serious damage with some luck and not many tactics.

Of course it's also not an high bar- we ARE talking about a medium encounter. They are not supposed to meet high expectations by design.

Read this board.😀 Just the other day someone made a post where it was clear that they were under the impression that a CR 4 creature was meant to be a challenge for 4 PCs.

Wether or not the person played 3e, is irrelevant to the fact, that is how 3e's CR chart worked, and a misunderstanding of how 5e's CR system works.

I have no quibble if you want to change the name I bestowed upon a phenomenon that is easily seen on this board, Reddit, and many other spaces.

If you are instead stating that there is no such phenomenon of persons misinterpreting 5e's CR nomenclature as an indicator for a group challenge, then alas I do have a quibble with that.

Again, the internet abounds with examples of precisely, this exact misunderstanding.

So do you believe that the vampire's Charm Ability is worth 5 levels of CR increase?
If so, Why?

Should probably point out that Kemev mentioned two more abilities, not just Charm.

[Kemev]

AFB so trusting Kobold.club, but I believe that the encounter building table in the DMG says that a level 10 party of four has a Hard threshold of 7600 adjusted XP and a Deadly threshold of 11,200 adjusted XP, making a 10,000 XP vampire a Hard encounter, not a Deadly one. Maybe you're thinking of a level 9 party?

Yes, you're correct; it would be hard, not deadly (I rounded up instead of down, oops). I think the point still stands though; the vampire could kill a party member, and is on-point for XGE's encounter building rules.

@OP at this point I'm not sure where you're going with this argument. If you're saying that players will make rules mistakes, that's true, but they could do that regardless of what the CR is listed at.

As far as the charm action, I'm not sure where you're getting +5 to CR. Your first post that says a vampire's DPR + defenses should make for a CR 11 creature. Many characters are unlikely to make the save vs. charm, which may take them out of the fight, or worse, turn them against the party. So yeah, I think that jump from CR 11 to CR 13 is reasonable.

[Thunderous Mojo]

The damage output of a Vampire is at a CR 8 level. So 8 + 5 = 13.
I have stated I think a Vampire is closer to a CR 10 challenge.

People's assessment of what the Charm power is worth, is interesting.

As for the question for my motivations for this thread:
-Primarily it was just to spark a conversation, as I stated in my initial post.
-Secondarily, I am looking for distraction. I have nearly a dozen close friends, with elderly parents that are ill with Covid 19. Covid 19 and 70 year olds = grim.

It is even grimmer when ICU capacity in SoCal is 0.

Sorry, for referencing, unpleasant topics...just want to make clear, that I have no agenda greater than seeking solace, in discussing a hobby I love.

[PhoenixPhyre]

The damage output of a Vampire is at a CR 8 level. So 8 + 5 = 13.


I'm not sure where this is coming from. Yes, the offensive CR of a vampire is 8. But overall CR is (oCR + dCR)/2, and the dCR of a vampire (by the book) is 18. (8 + 18)/2 = 13. Straight up, not even accounting for charm.

Most monsters have oCR =/= dCR. That's normal. You don't have to "make up" any ground here--CR is definitionally an average of defensive and offensive capabilities.

[KorvinStarmast]

So do you believe that the vampire's Charm Ability is worth 5 levels of CR increase?
If so, Why? Consider the Vampire who charms a level 9 Fighter, and convinces him to defend the Vampire against these three other level 9 characters.
A level 9 fighter is worth about a CR 4 or 5 Monster, if I am to believe the charts in XGtE. The charm ability of the original vampire (original game) was at a -2 to save, and charm person in that version of the game was a lot more powerful. (more like current dominate spells). The vampire's use of charm is a key factor in playing them within narrative tradition of the monster in question.

Changing the Odds from 4 to 1 to 3 to 2 is a non trivial tactical swing.

And as noted above isn't quite accounted for in the CR calculation tables. When they summon minions, the action economy can also get kind of sticky.

[Asisreo1]

The damage output of a Vampire is at a CR 8 level. So 8 + 5 = 13.
I have stated I think a Vampire is closer to a CR 10 challenge.

People's assessment of what the Charm power is worth, is interesting.

As for the question for my motivations for this thread:
-Primarily it was just to spark a conversation, as I stated in my initial post.
-Secondarily, I am looking for distraction. I have nearly a dozen close friends, with elderly parents that are ill with Covid 19. Covid 19 and 70 year olds = grim.

It is even grimmer when ICU capacity in SoCal is 0.

Sorry, for referencing, unpleasant topics...just want to make clear, that I have no agenda greater than seeking solace, in discussing a hobby I love.
I think you're focusing too much on the Charm effect and thinking it does something to CR when it doesn't.

The Charm action of the Vampire does absolutely nothing offensively or defensively for a charm. It's an indeterminate and therefore left out of CR altogether.

CR is more about the average of their Offense and Defense. Their Charm action isn't worth the +5 to Offensive CR but their extensive defensive abilities are.

Altogether, their HP, LR, AC, Regen, Saves, and Resistances altogether account for the +5 CR that you're referencing.

[Unoriginal]

I think you're focusing too much on the Charm effect and thinking it does something to CR when it doesn't.

The Charm action of the Vampire does absolutely nothing offensively or defensively for a charm. It's an indeterminate and therefore left out of CR altogether.

CR is more about the average of their Offense and Defense. Their Charm action isn't worth the +5 to Offensive CR but their extensive defensive abilities are.

Altogether, their HP, LR, AC, Regen, Saves, and Resistances altogether account for the +5 CR that you're referencing.

Well defensively it does remove an enemy from the fight whenever it works.

[MaxWilson]

I'm not sure where this is coming from. Yes, the offensive CR of a vampire is 8. But overall CR is (oCR + dCR)/2, and the dCR of a vampire (by the book) is 18. (8 + 18)/2 = 13. Straight up, not even accounting for charm.

Most monsters have oCR =/= dCR. That's normal. You don't have to "make up" any ground here--CR is definitionally an average of defensive and offensive capabilities.

Agreeing and adding more detail:

Actual HP: 144
Actual AC: 16

Resistant to normal weapons = +25% effective HP = 144 * 1.25 = 180 effective HP, base
3 Saving throw proficiencies (Dex, Wis, Cha) = effective +2 to AC
3 Legendary Resistances = effective 3 * 30 HP = +90 effective HP
Regeneration 20 HP/round = effective 3 * 20 HP = +60 effective HP

Effective HP: 330 (17d8+68)
Effective AC: 18

Attack Bonus: +9
Average Damage Per Round: 42.5 (5 x d8+4 from the ability to use all legendary resistances to attack, if desired)

The chart says 330 HP fits in the CR 18 range (326-340 HP, AC 19), and effective AC 18 is within 1 point of AC 19 so no adjustment needed. Defensive CR is 18.

The chart also says that 39-44 damage per round is CR 6 and +6 to attack. Since the vampire has +9 to attack, that bumps offensive CR up from CR 6 to CR 7.

That gives the vampire a CR of (7+18)/2 = 12.5, modified by the final step of the DMG CR calculation process (tweak according to DM judgment). I don't think the DMG says which way to round but in this case they clearly rounded up, maybe because of charm or maybe because of swarm summoning or maybe because of the "doesn't immediately die on 0 HP" thing or maybe from the synergies between all of the above (e.g. charm and then move without provoking opportunity attacks and then regenerate and try again).

[Asisreo1]

That gives the vampire a CR of (7+18)/2 = 12.5, modified by the final step of the DMG CR calculation process (tweak according to DM judgment). I don't think the DMG says which way to round but in this case they clearly rounded up, maybe because of charm or maybe because of swarm summoning or maybe because of the "doesn't immediately die on 0 HP" thing or maybe from the synergies between all of the above (e.g. charm and then move without provoking opportunity attacks and then regenerate and try again).
You just round to the nearest CR, which between 12 and 13 makes it 13 since 12.5 rounded to closest usually means 5's go up.