Can An Item Have Multiple Ego Scores?

[Doctor Despair]

There are many means to give an ego score to an item, not least of which is just crafting it to have one (I believe the DMG has reference to a flat 1,000gp cost for this). Suppose a legacy weapon (WoL) was also an item familiar (UA). The item can gain an ego score as a result of either system. There's no mechanism suggesting the mental scores would add together, but would the item gain separate ego scores (sort of like a split personality)? Or would the better of the two scores apply? Or would the newer/older score apply? I'm having a little trouble finding how the ego scores would interact.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't get it. Do the mentioned sources use different formulas to determine the Ego score?

I would assume both use the same formula and thus you should only have a single ego score (without stacking).

[Morty_Jhones]

No.... well mabie, but you wouldn't want to anyway

You cant' give an Item multiple ego scores , for the simple resion that anything that you could add to give an ego would automaticaly add it to the original ego. since ego is simply power+power

HOWEVER...

the personality of the magic item is dependant on the personality of the maker...... so at a strech if the maker was a sever scizofrenic down to the point of have 2 charicter sheets two, you could strech things and sy that any intelagent item he makes would inherit this cronic flaw, meaing 2 special perposes to sets of special powers and so 2 diferant IDs and there resultant alinment and ego score. however I would think that such 2 devergant pesonas would be diametricaly opossed to each other

pricing and costing for this would of corse go on whichever Ego was more powerfull

But as you can see it would mean drawing such a weapon/item would be a coin flip away from causing some sort of desaster.

[Particle_Man]

Maybe make it a double weapon and have each head enchanted separately with their own ego scores and their own personalities. Usually intelligent items are not wild about each other but a double weapon head is kind of stuck with the opposing head. They might bicker like an ettin though.

[Gruftzwerg]

Maybe make it a double weapon and have each head enchanted separately with their own ego scores and their own personalities. Usually intelligent items are not wild about each other but a double weapon head is kind of stuck with the opposing head. They might bicker like an ettin though.

It's not a regular "+X enhancement" for the magic item/weapon. Thus you can't enhance the separate heads of a doubleweapon, you enhance the entire thing as intelligent item.


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The sole way to have multiple ego scores is when you have a discernible separate creature/object (by the rules). You could start with an intelligent item and add a symbiont to it. Now you have 2 creatures in one "body" and thus can have two ego scores.

[Particle_Man]

It's not a regular "+X enhancement" for the magic item/weapon. Thus you can't enhance the separate heads of a doubleweapon, you enhance the entire thing as intelligent item.


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The sole way to have multiple ego scores is when you have a discernible separate creature/object (by the rules). You could start with an intelligent item and add a symbiont to it. Now you have 2 creatures in one "body" and thus can have two ego scores.

“Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.“ https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons

So yes you can have a double weapon with the two heads each treated as a separate weapon and thus each capable of being separately enchanted. There is nothing that says that intelligent magic items are an exception to this rule. Thus you can have a double weapon that has two separate personalities, intelligences and ego scores.

[Gruftzwerg]

“Creating magic double-headed weapons is treated as creating two weapons when determining cost, time, XP, and special abilities.“ https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/creatingMagicItems.htm#creatingMagicWeapons

So yes you can have a double weapon with the two heads each treated as a separate weapon and thus each capable of being separately enchanted. There is nothing that says that intelligent magic items are an exception to this rule. Thus you can have a double weapon that has two separate personalities, intelligences and ego scores.

The rule you are referring to is for the "Table: Melee Weapon Special Abilities" and flat "+X" bonuses. The "Intelligent Item"-property doesn't fall under this category.

The double weapon is still a single weapon/item and thus can only have a single "intelligent item" ego score. Having two different heads to enhance/enchant doesn't change that by the rules.

[the_tick_rules]

A holy avenger could, I think. It's gains additional powers when held by a paladin. If it were sentient the extra properties would boost it's ego score right?

[Gruftzwerg]

A holy avenger could, I think. It's gains additional powers when held by a paladin. If it were sentient the extra properties would boost it's ego score right?

Boosting the ego score is not the problem and not the question asked here (and yeah you can push the ego score legally by the rules).

The question is, can an item have multiple Ego Scores = multiple personalities. And as far as I see it, you can't (as mentioned above).

[Particle_Man]

The ego table notes that he ego of the item is calculated by “each +1 of item’s enhancement bonus”. A double headed weapon can have two separate enhancement bonuses. Since the table doesn’t say “each +1 of item’s enhancement bonuses” you only add the singular enhancement bonus. A +2/+1 double weapon is not a +3 weapon - it has two enhancement bonuses not one. Thus you calculate two different ego scores, one for each bonus.

The Holy Avenger is an interesting case, as is the Sword of the Planes or the Sun Blade. I think I would go with an ego score that varies as the sword’s plus varies but this wouldn’t be a problem usually as the ego is only an issue when the sword is engaged in a personality conflict with its user.

[Crake]

Boosting the ego score is not the problem and not the question asked here (and yeah you can push the ego score legally by the rules).

The question is, can an item have multiple Ego Scores = multiple personalities. And as far as I see it, you can't (as mentioned above).

Using the "combining magical items" rule, I see no reason why you couldn't enchant a magic item with multiple personalities, ego scores, and abilities. If you're doing this as a DM, you also don't need to justify it with rules, since you make the rules. If you're doing this as a player, then just ask your DM if they're down with the idea. In my experience, unless the DM thinks you're trying to game the system and be a munchkin, they'll usually say yes.

[Gruftzwerg]

The ego table notes that he ego of the item is calculated by “each +1 of item’s enhancement bonus”. A double headed weapon can have two separate enhancement bonuses. Since the table doesn’t say “each +1 of item’s enhancement bonuses” you only add the singular enhancement bonus. A +2/+1 double weapon is not a +3 weapon - it has two enhancement bonuses not one. Thus you calculate two different ego scores, one for each bonus.

The Holy Avenger is an interesting case, as is the Sword of the Planes or the Sun Blade. I think I would go with an ego score that varies as the sword’s plus varies but this wouldn’t be a problem usually as the ego is only an issue when the sword is engaged in a personality conflict with its user.
Even if I would follow your assumption of calculating two different ego scores, that doesn't give the permission to stack 2 "intelligent item" on one as per the rules. If you have 2 values of the same score/variable in 3.5, you take the better one and ignore the other (unless it is an exception that can present/refer to stacking rules).

On Holy Avenger I'm totally in line with you. Adding/Subtracting extra abilities will change the ego score in the moment of that change.



Using the "combining magical items" rule, I see no reason why you couldn't enchant a magic item with multiple personalities, ego scores, and abilities. If you're doing this as a DM, you also don't need to justify it with rules, since you make the rules. If you're doing this as a player, then just ask your DM if they're down with the idea. In my experience, unless the DM thinks you're trying to game the system and be a munchkin, they'll usually say yes.

Sure a DM can always rule everything as he sees fit. But we know that this should be always the last option. If we have rules that can cover something up, it would be nice to use em. No one is forced to do at his table (as DM).

If the opening post doesn't set specific rules (RAW / RAI / Homebrew), the most common strategy in the forum is (imho):

1. RAW solution if possible
2. if not a RAI point of view might help
3. DM decision / houserule-joker

I mean, I have seen enough post of you to assume that you follow this priority system yourself if I'm not mistaken?^^

back to Combined Magic Item rules:
I'm aware of that rule. And IIRC it is an optional rule that requires DM approval. And imho that is a chase by chase thing. Otherwise you end up with weapons/armors stacking "fix cost"-abilities multiple times which is not the intention of that rule.
I can't say that I'm convinced that this option is 100% legal, but imho it is still a good approach to solve the situation.

[Particle_Man]

Another option would be an intelligent weapon crystal put into an intelligent magic weapon, although both would likely hate the idea.

[Jay R]

Ask your DM. Here's my take on it. Your DM could approach it differently and there's nothing wrong with that.

Different egos are different entities. One could theoretically give each end of a double-ended weapon a different personality, perhaps, just like a ettin can have more than one, with possibly different WIS and INT scores.

If one of my players wanted to do this, I'd need a long description of what actual effect he expected it to have during play before I could begin to consider whether to allow it.

[Crake]

Sure a DM can always rule everything as he sees fit. But we know that this should be always the last option. If we have rules that can cover something up, it would be nice to use em. No one is forced to do at his table (as DM).

If the opening post doesn't set specific rules (RAW / RAI / Homebrew), the most common strategy in the forum is (imho):

1. RAW solution if possible
2. if not a RAI point of view might help
3. DM decision / houserule-joker

I mean, I have seen enough post of you to assume that you follow this priority system yourself if I'm not mistaken?^^

back to Combined Magic Item rules:
I'm aware of that rule. And IIRC it is an optional rule that requires DM approval. And imho that is a chase by chase thing. Otherwise you end up with weapons/armors stacking "fix cost"-abilities multiple times which is not the intention of that rule.
I can't say that I'm convinced that this option is 100% legal, but imho it is still a good approach to solve the situation.

Except the thing about custom magic items is: There's no such thing as hard rules. They're all guidelines. The RAW is "ask your DM".

[Noxangelo]

not multiple ego scores per se, but you can give an item multiple intelligences/personalities.

-the "flying weapon" enhancement from OA turns a weapon into an animated object with int:- wis:1 cha:1
- you can, obviously, make the item intelligent.
- the spell "create minor servitor" from SS not only animates an object but also gives int:-3d6 cha:1d3 (consider maximising and empowering this.)
- "hauntshift" an intelligent undead monster into the item, not technically intelligent itself but an undead with a high enough wis can animate the object.

[Anthrowhale]

According to the Crit handbook (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1Ex0HMTfZFb8Ra8-Js-sTioUACEx1rGr3HvUXJI_MYpM/edit#)

Ettin Axe of Uruth (Waterdeep), Orc Double Axe, icy burst/fiery burst weapon. Intelligent with two sentiences, Ur and Krypt in either end.

[unseenmage]

If you are playing Pathfinder you could enchant an AI infused tech item with Intelligent Magic Item ego.

Theoretically one could achieve the same in 3.x by using Ravenloft Devices or gnome artificer devices as well.



From what I'm seeing two Egos in one item would both have the ability to control the item's superpowers, though how you determine which ego does what is anyone's guess.
As hey both count as NPCs they could both just get their own Initiative. In which case they could abuse the action economy by doubling the number of actions the Intelligent Magic Item construct can take.

Depending on how one interprets how ego scores are generated having both egos in one item could change the ego score calculation itself as well.

EDIT
My favorite version of multiple.minds in one item is an Intelligent Magic Item Figurine of Wondrous Power.
The consensus at our IRL table is that the tra formation changes the mind as well as the form so.the magic item intelligence takes a back seat to the figurine's animal form mind for the duration.