Build Challenge: Level 10 Paladin Barbarian Druid

[Omni-Centrist]

Give me your best Level 10 Pissed Off Heaven Bear Build aka Brother Bear 2: Smiting Beargaloo

[CheddarChampion]

If you can get special heavy armor that's not made of metal and if you can smite with natural attacks,
Standard human for 15/10/13/10/16/14
Ancients Paladin 3/Moon Druid 7. Resilient (Constitution) at Druid 4 to bring Con up to 14.

You can cast a spell then turn into something, or turn into a Giant Elk (which can speak) and cast verbal component only spells afterwards.

Compelled Duel, Faerie Fire, Ensnaring Strike, Healing Word, Searing Smite, Thunderous Smite, Wrathful Smite, Earthbound, Warding Wind, Guardian of Nature
Another option is to go with 15/10/13/10/14/16 instead, and take Ancients Paladin 7/Moon Druid 3. I forget if it works, but the idea is that Extra Attack boosts your Wildshape damage output. The Auras make you tankier.

[JediMaster]

2 Paladin/1 Barbarian/ 7 Moon Druid. Take the minimum to get smites and rage then the rest Druid.

[Lord Ruby34]

2 Paladin/1 Barbarian/ 7 Moon Druid. Take the minimum to get smites and rage then the rest Druid.

Agreed. The worst part of the build is hitting 13 STR/CHA to legally multiclass. It works much better if you roll well or are allowed a higher than usual point buy.

Under a standard point buy system you'll want something like 13/13/13/8/14/13. Under Tasha's any race with a +2/+1 statline could work too start with a sixteen in wisdom and a fourteen constitution. Take one level in barbarian, fried to at least two, and Paladin when you want it. The odd shoes can be evened out later.

A non-varient human could also work. Start with 12/13/13/8/15/12 before modifiers and get +5 relevant stat mods.

[shipiaozi]

1 Paladin/1 Barbarian/8 Druid is the best choice, so he could cast summon spells like a level 8 Druid while lost as less as possible in multiclass. Divine smite is useless for druid at level 8.

7 Paladin/2 Barbarian/1 Druid is also fine, get extra attack, lv7 aura, rage and advantage, multiclass into Druid lost about one feat compare to sorcerer but maybe character get a powerful druid item...

[JediMaster]

1 Paladin/1 Barbarian/8 Druid is the best choice, so he could cast summon spells like a level 8 Druid while lost as less as possible in multiclass. Divine smite is useless for druid at level 8.

7 Paladin/2 Barbarian/1 Druid is also fine, get extra attack, lv7 aura, rage and advantage, multiclass into Druid lost about one feat compare to sorcerer but maybe character get a powerful druid item...

Smites work while wildshaped.

[Hytheter]

1 Paladin/1 Barbarian/8 Druid is the best choice, so he could cast summon spells like a level 8 Druid while lost as less as possible in multiclass. Divine smite is useless for druid at level 8.

If you're not using smite you might as well just drop paladin, it earns you nothing. That said, I fail to see how being able to drop a couple of high-level smites with a bear's multiattack is useless.


You can cast a spell then turn into something, or turn into a Giant Elk (which can speak) and cast verbal component only spells afterwards.

Components aren't the issue. Wild shape specifies that you can't cast spells, straight up. Turning into a giant elk doesn't make that go away.

[RogueJK]

Something to consider is that any multiclass levels seriously cramp the Moon Druid's primary ability of Combat Wildshape, with any non-Moon Druid levels putting you behind the narrow viable Wild Shape power curve at certain levels. Plus single-classed Moon Druids already start to lag a little bit in Wild Shape combat effectiveness from Level 7ish until Level 10 when Elemental Wild Shape comes online and they get a big power boost.

So while a Barbarian 1/Paladin 2/Moon Druid 7 is the most viable option to achieve what you're wanting (a Raging Smiting Wild Shaped Druid), your Wild Shape is going to suffer even more than usual, since you're smack dab in the middle of this "lag period", and it is now going to last up through Character Level 13 so it'll be even more noticeable. Rage and Smite are not going to be able to make up for that. So outside of the occasional Smite nova damage, you're going to be objectively worse than just a Level 10 Moon Druid in an Elemental form as far as fighting in Wild Shape goes.

A 1 level multiclass dip doesn't hurt nearly as much, and can potentially be worth it in some situations. So something like a Barbarian 1/Moon Druid 9 (or especially a Monk 1/Moon Druid 9) would be more viable over the course of a campaign, though still worse than a Moon Druid 10 at specifically Level 10 due to the lack of Elemental Wild Shape. (The difference at Level 9 or Level 11 wouldn't be nearly as noticeable.)



You can cast a spell then turn into something, or turn into a Giant Elk (which can speak) and cast verbal component only spells afterwards.

Wild Shaped Druids cannot cast spells, period. It's not just that they can't speak in nearly all Animal forms, in which case Giant Elk would have been a workaround, as would something like having access to Subtle Spell. But that is not the case. The Wild Shape ability specifically says that you can't cast spells:


While you are transformed, the following rules apply:

You can’t cast spells, and your ability to speak or take any action that requires hands is limited to the capabilities of your beast form. Transforming doesn’t break your concentration on a spell you’ve already cast, however, or prevent you from taking actions that are part of a spell, such as call lightning, that you’ve already cast.

So while the rules allow for a Druid Wild Shaped into a Giant Elk to speak, and a Druid Wild Shaped into an Ape to use handheld tools, spellcasting is right out, no matter what.

Same with a Raging Barbarian. No matter what, they can't cast spells, even if you have something like Subtle Spell. It's a specific limitation tied to the class ability, not something that hinges on spell components.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Ancients Paladin 3/Moon Druid 7. Resilient (Constitution) at Druid 4 to bring Con up to 14.

I'm curious - why Ancients? Wouldn't Vengeance work better? The channel divinity bonus action advantage seems like a better synergy than anything ancients brings to the table (unless you're later taking paladin to 7). And both appeal to the theme of the build in different ways. Or is it just the congestion of too many bonus actions?

[shipiaozi]

Smites work while wildshaped.

If you're not using smite you might as well just drop paladin, it earns you nothing. That said, I fail to see how being able to drop a couple of high-level smites with a bear's multiattack is useless.

I know smite works with wild shape, but on level 8 wild shape should be used on summon familiar, in addition druid have no spell slots for smite.
Druid/paladin is a really bad choice, but OP said the character should be Paladin Barbarian Druid. In that case, Pal 1/Druid 8 lost less than Pal 2/Druid 7, smite don't worth a feat for Druid.

[RogueJK]

in addition druid have no spell slots for smite.


... A multiclass Paladin 2/Druid X has more spell slots for Smiting than a single classed Paladin. A Paladin 10 has 4/3/2 spell slots. A Paladin 2/Druid 8 has 4/3/3/3/1 spell slots. That's an extra 3rd level slot, plus 3x 4th level slots and 1x 5th level slot that the Paladin doesn't have yet.

You can use any spell slots for Divine Smite, not just those gained from Paladin levels specifically.

This is why things like Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock or Paladin/Bard builds are so popular. Paladin levels to unlock the Divine Smite ability, and then full spellcaster progression for more higher level spell slots to burn on Smites than a Paladin would have otherwise.


Just like a Wizard 2/Druid 8 could use their higher level 2nd/3rd/4th/5th level spell slots they gained from the Druid levels to upcast their 1st level Wizard spells known. A spell slot is a spell slot, and can be spent on anything that requires spending a spell slot, regardless of which class it comes from.

(With a handful of specific exceptions, notably some of the Warlock Invocations which specify that you have to burn specifically a Warlock Pact Magic slot for the effect, so these Invocations can't be used with spell slots from other spellcasting classes.)

[CheddarChampion]

Components aren't the issue. Wild shape specifies that you can't cast spells, straight up. Turning into a giant elk doesn't make that go away.


Wild Shaped Druids cannot cast spells, period. It's not just that they can't speak in nearly all Animal forms, in which case Giant Elk would have been a workaround, as would something like having access to Subtle Spell. But that is not the case. The Wild Shape ability specifically says that you can't cast spells:

Ah. Good to know!


I'm curious - why Ancients? Wouldn't Vengeance work better? The channel divinity bonus action advantage seems like a better synergy than anything ancients brings to the table (unless you're later taking paladin to 7). And both appeal to the theme of the build in different ways. Or is it just the congestion of too many bonus actions?

Somehow I missed the Barbarian part. I agree Vengeance also fits the theme.
With that in mind, the main reason to choose Ancients is for the level 7 aura. If Vengeance is taken instead, a 6/4 split is probably better: one more level for spell slots and one more feat/ASI.

[shipiaozi]

... A multiclass Paladin 2/Druid X has more spell slots for Smiting than a single classed Paladin. A Paladin 10 has 4/3/2 spell slots. A Paladin 2/Druid 8 has 4/3/3/3/1 spell slots. That's an extra 3rd level slot, plus 3x 4th level slots and 1x 5th level slot that the Paladin doesn't have yet.

You can use any spell slots for Divine Smite, not just those gained from Paladin levels specifically.

This is why things like Paladin/Sorcerer or Paladin/Warlock or Paladin/Bard builds are so popular. Paladin levels to unlock the Divine Smite ability, and then full spellcaster progression for more higher level spell slots to burn on Smites than a Paladin would have otherwise.


Just like a Wizard 2/Druid 8 could use their higher level 2nd/3rd/4th/5th level spell slots they gained from the Druid levels to upcast their 1st level Wizard spells known. A spell slot is a spell slot, and can be spent on anything that requires spending a spell slot, regardless of which class it comes from.

(With a handful of specific exceptions, notably some of the Warlock Invocations which specify that you have to burn specifically a Warlock Pact Magic slot for the effect, so these Invocations can't be used with spell slots from other spellcasting classes.)

Druid should use every 3+ level spell slots for summon spells, divine smite are no match for them. In addition he probably should use some 1 or 2 lv spells slots to heal, so he probably would have no spell slots to use divine smite at that level.

BTW divine smite isn't a very powerful ability and massively overused, and there are so many weak builds related to it like Sorcerer X/Paladin 2.

[arnin77]

Druid should use every 3+ level spell slots for summon spells, divine smite are no match for them. In addition he probably should use some 1 or 2 lv spells slots to heal, so he probably would have no spell slots to use divine smite at that level.

BTW divine smite isn't a very powerful ability and massively overused, and there are so many weak builds related to it like Sorcerer X/Paladin 2.

Sigh.

I’ll play along with the OP and try to help him instead of basically telling him his build is useless.... also, to the OP - I’m pretty sure the person above is playing a different game than everyone else.

I think someone said this before but Pal 2/Barb2/Druid 6 might be the way to go. You could reckless attack, rage and divine smite in wild shape. Probably be more of a front liner druid.

I went with half-elf for 16/10/14/8/14/14. If you hit with a claw attack recklessly you’re more likely to crit and you’d have more smites available plus some rage damage. Against an undead it’s even better, with a 4th level crit smite vs undead adding 12d8 damage on one hit.

I think your idea would be fun to play although take a while to “get there”.

Play what you want to play, how you want to play. That’s the main point of 5e. Don’t listen to people who say there’s only one way to play something and everything else is wrong. It’s idiotic.

[Guy Lombard-O]

Somehow I missed the Barbarian part. I agree Vengeance also fits the theme.
With that in mind, the main reason to choose Ancients is for the level 7 aura. If Vengeance is taken instead, a 6/4 split is probably better: one more level for spell slots and one more feat/ASI.

Fair.

And I've got to admit, I'm pretty amused by the thought of a raging Giant Elk muttering a prayer to his rage-god vowing enmity against the target of its ire, before charging back into battle and trampling a fool!

[Civis Mundi]

Somehow I missed the Barbarian part. I agree Vengeance also fits the theme.
With that in mind, the main reason to choose Ancients is for the level 7 aura. If Vengeance is taken instead, a 6/4 split is probably better: one more level for spell slots and one more feat/ASI.

Unfortunately, as others have pointed out, the more levels outside of Druid you take, the worse your Wild Shapes are going to be. Moon Druids experience a strange power curve (more like a zigzag) as they approach the next level that ups their CR. Even with minimal multiclassing (Barbarian 1/Paladin 2), you'll always be 1 CR behind where you should be. It'll be all to easy to just pop you out of Wild Shape with sufficient damage and such low AC. With 6 or 7 levels out of Druid, you're unlikely to last more than a round or two, and the whole combo falls apart.

I'd go with Jedi Master's suggestion (Barb 1/Paladin 2/Moon Druid 2+), or better yet, drop Barbarian altogether. You don't need an ability called Rage to be a raging bear. I like Wildhunt Shifter for this build, and their racial ability could be a great rage-approximate.

[Kemev]

I think someone said this before but Pal 2/Barb2/Druid 6 might be the way to go. You could reckless attack, rage and divine smite in wild shape. Probably be more of a front liner druid.

I went with half-elf for 16/10/14/8/14/14. If you hit with a claw attack recklessly you’re more likely to crit and you’d have more smites available plus some rage damage. Against an undead it’s even better, with a 4th level crit smite vs undead adding 12d8 damage on one hit.

Actually, I think you're the first person to mention it. I agree though... Pal 2 / Barb 2 / Moon Druid 6 is the way to go. Using Reckless Attack to give advantage to set up potentially lethal smites is what makes the build shine.

I'd probably distribute ability scores differently (unless I'm misreading something). If you're going to be raging in wildshape most of the time in combat, spending points on physical ability scores doesn't seem helpful. You don't even really need Con... usually it's important for Druids for maintaining concentration on spells, but if you're raging you can't do that anyway.

Assuming the new Tasha's rules are available, and a standard point buy, I'd rather start with Str 13, Dex 10, Con 10, Int 8, Wis 15, Cha 15. Pick half-orc for race to get Relentless Endurance and Savage Attacks, adding the +2 to Wis and +1 to Cha. Start Barbarian 1, then for background, pick something with a couple extra social skills. For the ASI at Druid 4, take Resilient (Wisdom) or maybe one of the Tasha's half-feats with +1 wisdom. If you advance to level 12, I'd take the Prodigy feat for Druid ASI 8, giving expertise to whichever social skill I was using most. For spells, I'd take a couple ranged attack options and focus on utility/exploration effects (note that druids get decent Charm/Dominate options, which can avoid combat entirely).

Net result is a character that is an actual beast in combat for a couple encounters per day, plus a helpful leader and explorer who can solve puzzles and potentially avoid combats entirely.

Also, if UA is on the table, the Blessed Warrior fighting style for Paladin is clutch. Most of the other styles are useless if you're not wearing armor or wielding a weapon, so grab a couple free cantrips (probably Guidance and Resistance) to free up picks for your druid cantrips (probably something damage dealing and another utility effect... I'm partial to Thorn Whip and Druidcraft).

[RogueJK]

Blessed Warrior isn't UA any more. It's official, in Tasha's.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

I will go paladin 2/barbarian 2/moon druid 6.
Fuel my bear smites.

You can go paladin 6/7(if ancients) later for the extra attack in case you want to wildshape into a single strong attack beast instead of a multi attack one.
Can also consider barbarian 3 for bear totem.

I think the more druid you are the better the building is.


Multiattack. The bear makes two attacks: one with its bite and one with its claws.

Bite. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 8 (1d8 + 4) piercing damage.

Claws. Melee Weapon Attack: +6 to hit, reach 5 ft., one target. Hit: 11 (2d6 + 4) slashing damage.

It looks to me like the bite and the claws are melee weapons attacks.



Divine Smite
Starting at 2nd level, when you hit a creature with a melee weapon attack, you can expend one spell slot to deal radiant damage to the target, in addition to the weapon’s damage. The extra damage is 2d8 for a 1st-level spell slot, plus 1d8 for each spell level higher than 1st, to a maximum of 5d8. The damage increases by 1d8 if the target is an undead or a fiend, to a maximum of 6d8.
BTW, 13 cha, the rest to wis and con. Little str.

[Gignere]

I will go paladin 2/barbarian 2/moon druid 6.
Fuel my bear smites.

You can go paladin 6/7(if ancients) later for the extra attack in case you want to wildshape into a single strong attack beast instead of a multi attack one.
Can also consider barbarian 3 for bear totem.

I think the more druid you are the better the building is.



It looks to me like the bite and the claws are melee weapons attacks.



BTW, 13 cha, the rest to wis and con. Little str.

But is it a melee weapon? Look at the part of divine smite that said the damage is added to the weapon damage. If the DM rules natural attacks are not weapon smite will not work also. However beast barbarian does specifically call out their natural weapons as simple weapons. Maybe an argument cab be made that animal natural weapons should be similar.

Also will need 13 str to multi in out of Paladin and barbarian.

[RogueJK]

They have to be making specifically melee weapon attacks to allow for Divine Smite. The bear's natural weapons make melee weapon attacks (as opposed to melee spell attacks, or ranged weapon/spell attacks). It's even spelled out right there in the bear's stat block, next to each attack type: "Melee weapon attack".


In addition, a bear's natural weapons are specifically weapons. It's not just in the name (natural weapon), it's even laid out in the Monster Manual:

"The most common actions that a monster will take in combat are melee and ranged attacks. These can be spell attacks or weapon attack, where the "weapon" might be a manufactured item or a natural weapon such as a claw or tail spike."