Were We Just Making This Up?

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

Hey all,

For as long as I can remember, the various gaming groups I've played with have imposed a -2 penalty to Swim checks for each 5 lbs. of gear worn or carried by the character. To me, this makes sense. Those two five pound sack of sling bullets isn't going to help you much when you fall into a river.

I never paid much attention to Swim, since I always had other places to put my skill points, and avoided the water out of habit, since Bad Things tend to live in it.

Fast forward to the last time I rolled up a new character. I rolled straight down the line and ended up with a high intelligence for my fighter, which meant that I had plenty of skill points to spend. I maxed out all those skill I usually neglect, including Climb, Jump and Swim. Suddenly, every mud puddle looks like a swimming pool, every rock a thing to climb and every set of stairs an excuse to jump down them five at a time. Since I intended to use these skills, I decided to make sure I had all my bonuses and penalties factored into my skill checks properly. When I checked, however, I could find no mention of the -2 per 5 lbs. of gear carried rule I've always played with, only the rule that encumberance and armor check penalties are doubled when making swim checks.

Thus my question: Is this a real rule, or did we just make it up? If we made it up, is it just such a common house-rule that no one ever mentioned it, or are the groups I've played with just weird like that?

Any answers to my quandry would be most appeciated,
-Blue

[Yuki Akuma]

You just made it up, I've never heard of it, and -2 for every five pounds of gear sounds rather harsh.

[rankrath]

it's not in the rules, but it makes sense, ever tried to swim while lugging around a brick or two? not fun, not fun at all.

[Yuki Akuma]

it's not in the rules, but it makes sense, ever tried to swim while lugging around a brick or two? not fun, not fun at all.

That would be more due to the fact that you need to use your hands to hold them, and they don't make good paddles.

[Dhavaer]

You weren't making it up. It's a 3.0 rule that was removed in 3.5.

[Catch]

Swim checks have double the normal armor check and encumbrance penalties, but no, there's nothing additional in the PHB or SRD about penalties for weight.

Edit: Okay, so I don't know 3.0 like I thought I did.

[Seffbasilisk]

You made it up. And it IS excessivly harsh. Strong men could swim in fullplate. Assuming masterwork, that's a -10 to a swim check...doable. Under your system it would be a -30....if that's all he had. Just fullplate armor, no weapon. That's basically impossible for most mortals. Level 20's would have trouble with that.

[Kantolin]

Yanking out my old 3.0 PHB, I see that that's the old ruling there: 5lbs = -1 penalty on swim checks. That's probably where you got the rule.

In 3.5, you simply add double the armour check penalty given by either a medium/heavy load or your armour, whichever is worse.

[The Unborne]

Actually, it was a rule in the 3.0 Player's Handbook. For every five pounds of gear you carried you got a -1 to your swim check, instead of using an armor check penalty.

EDIT: Too slow.

[Kantolin]

Yigads, when you guys Simu-ninja someone, you don't play around.

[Deepblue706]

Jump was also -1 per 10 lbs, I think.

[The_Blue_Sorceress]

Thanks for all the help, folks. -1 for 5 lbs. makes more sense than -2, but can still see why they scrapped it after the update.

*Gets ready to go fo a swim*

Thanks again,
-Blue

[Stormcrow]

You made it up. And it IS excessivly harsh. Strong men could swim in fullplate. Assuming masterwork, that's a -10 to a swim check...doable. Under your system it would be a -30....if that's all he had. Just fullplate armor, no weapon. That's basically impossible for most mortals. Level 20's would have trouble with that.

Are you aware that Saladin the Crusading Hero fellah drowned jumping into water in his armour? The career soldier, in the prime of his life. Walking in armour is hard, swimming in armour is a deathwish. Let alone 40-50lbs of steel that limits your movements, covers your body and fills with water.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Yeah it's not harsh at all and I find it to be an appropriate penalty.

Living in Grand Junction, Co, we had two big rivers, and there were more than a few times some idiot wearing combat boots, lugging equipment, would drown trying to swim in his "soldier gear".

[Goff]

Are you aware that Saladin the Crusading Hero fellah drowned jumping into water in his armour? The career soldier, in the prime of his life. Walking in armour is hard, swimming in armour is a deathwish. Let alone 40-50lbs of steel that limits your movements, covers your body and fills with water.

Saladin was about 55 when he died, and the only accounts I have seen of his death say he died of a fever.
Not that I think one could swim in armour without great difficulty, but Saladin isn't a great example because he was past his physical prime, and doesn't appear to have died by drowning anyway...

[Neon Knight]

Are you aware that Saladin the Crusading Hero fellah drowned jumping into water in his armour? The career soldier, in the prime of his life. Walking in armour is hard, swimming in armour is a deathwish. Let alone 40-50lbs of steel that limits your movements, covers your body and fills with water.

You're thinking of Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor. Saladin was a Saracen lord.

[Blanks]

I took the necessary diploma to be a lifeguard once, and has been swimming competitions previously. Im a fairly good swimmer, certainly the best of all my friends, relatives and co workers.

I once tried to see how many training dolls for lifeguard training i could lift up from the bottom of a pool to the surface (3 meters).
1 was easy.
2 was doable
3 i got a mouthfull of air and sank like a stone.

those dolls are something like 5-10 kilo on dry land and are easy to carry due to size. Full plate would be impossible for mortals.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I took the necessary diploma to be a lifeguard once, and has been swimming competitions previously. Im a fairly good swimmer, certainly the best of all my friends, relatives and co workers.

I once tried to see how many training dolls for lifeguard training i could lift up from the bottom of a pool to the surface (3 meters).
1 was easy.
2 was doable
3 i got a mouthfull of air and sank like a stone.

those dolls are something like 5-10 kilo on dry land and are easy to carry due to size. Full plate would be impossible for mortals.

Quite - the mass of what one is carrying is vitally important when considering swimming.

Me, I've stuck with 3.0's -1 per 5lb for swimming while trying to stay at the surface, but for underwater adventuring I use the double-armour-check rule.
I know that's not realistic (you'd still sink like a bag of spanners), but it makes for a more playable game.

[CrazedGoblin]

Full plate would be impossible for mortals.

mortals you say, THIS IS DND!:smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

[Mike_Lemmer]

Having everything in the backpack get soaked the moment they enter water is also realistic. It'd also play havoc on wizards & any class that uses scrolls. I prefer the "waterproofed backpacks" explanation and leave it at that, else any trip underwater would be more "GM screwing over players" than "exciting adventures in exotic locales!"

If AC went up with level, I wouldn't have a problem with the -1 per 5 lbs ruling. But since most melee fighters' AC depends on heavy armor, penalizing weight that much would turn any sea battle into "damned if you do & damned if you don't".

[Dausuul]

I took the necessary diploma to be a lifeguard once, and has been swimming competitions previously. Im a fairly good swimmer, certainly the best of all my friends, relatives and co workers.

I once tried to see how many training dolls for lifeguard training i could lift up from the bottom of a pool to the surface (3 meters).
1 was easy.
2 was doable
3 i got a mouthfull of air and sank like a stone.

those dolls are something like 5-10 kilo on dry land and are easy to carry due to size. Full plate would be impossible for mortals.

5-10 kilos is 11-22 pounds. And armor should certainly be no harder to carry for its weight than a training doll, since it's strapped to your body. So what you're saying is that, for a strong and well-trained swimmer, it was easy with a weight of [11 or 22 pounds], doable with a weight of [22 or 44 pounds], and impossible with a weight of [33 or 66 pounds].

Full plate as described in the PHB is 50 pounds. So, depending on whether the dolls were 5 or 10 kilos, it might actually be feasible to swim, albeit badly, in plate.

For what it's worth, the Wikipedia entry on full plate claims that "modern re-enactment activity has proven it is even possible to swim in armour," but no source is given and I haven't been able to find any first-hand evidence.


mortals you say, THIS IS DND!:smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

Too true. A guy who can reliably walk away from a 200-foot fall and jump 40 feet or more should not have trouble swimming in armor. :smallbiggrin:

[Fax Celestis]

mortals you say, THIS IS DND!:smallbiggrin: :smalltongue:

You forgot to kick someone down a well as you said that.

[Rad]

Please observe one minute of silence for the catgirls dead along this thread... :smallfrown:

[Blanks]

I know that's not realistic (you'd still sink like a bag of spanners), but it makes for a more playable game.
I agree completely that playability is very important, just promise me that none of you guys will attempt to swim in full plate any time soon :smalleek:


Full plate as described in the PHB is 50 pounds. So, depending on whether the dolls were 5 or 10 kilos, it might actually be feasible to swim, albeit badly, in plate.
I didnt swim with them. I managed, barely, to jump from the bottom of a pool, and hold myself at the surface to a couple of minutes (2 dolls). With 3 dolls i held my head above water for something like 2 seconds :smallredface:

Most people don't realize that boots, jeans and a jacket are more than enough wait to kill you :smallfrown:


Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazedGoblin
mortals you say, THIS IS DND!

Too true. A guy who can reliably walk away from a 200-foot fall and jump 40 feet or more should not have trouble swimming in armor.
Your level 20 character gets to swim in full plate. Your level 5 is no longer thirsty :smalltongue:


EDIT:
The catgirl isn't dead, just wounded ;)

[rankrath]

Your level 20 character gets to swim in full plate. Your level 5 is no longer thirsty :smalltongue:


EDIT:
The catgirl isn't dead, just wounded ;)

no, your lv 20 character wins the olympics in full plate.

I put the catgirl out of her misery.

[Altair_the_Vexed]

I agree completely that playability is very important, just promise me that none of you guys will attempt to swim in full plate any time soon :smalleek:


I didnt swim with them. I managed, barely, to jump from the bottom of a pool, and hold myself at the surface to a couple of minutes (2 dolls). With 3 dolls i held my head above water for something like 2 seconds :smallredface:

Most people don't realize that boots, jeans and a jacket are more than enough wait to kill you :smallfrown:


Your level 20 character gets to swim in full plate. Your level 5 is no longer thirsty :smalltongue:


EDIT:
The catgirl isn't dead, just wounded ;)

Hey, I found it really hard to swim in my pyjamas when we did that bit of training at school, so no, I'm not about to jump into the water in my bike leathers, let along a suit of chainmail. You won't need those lifeguard skills for me just yet!

Aside from the sheer mass of armour, the biggest issue I can think of is trying to carry your equipment.
Wearing a full rucksack and trying to swim? You have to be kidding. I've retained the -1 per 5lb penalty for equipment.

[JadedDM]

That's interesting to see how things have changed. Back in 2E, the rule was that anyone with Light encumbrance (or worse) just sank automatically. This meant, however, that if you had a STR of at least 17 and no other gear, you could theoretically swim in full plate mail.

[Dausuul]

...Y'know, it just occurred to me to wonder about these supposed re-enactors swimming in full plate. Seems awfully risky. What if they discovered they couldn't do it? Not exactly easy to get that stuff off in a hurry, nor for a lifeguard to haul you out.

I suppose they could have had ropes tied to them, though.

[rankrath]

aye. I would try it however, if a few rescue divers were in the water aswell, all I'd have to do is open the visor to get air. and yes, before you ask, I'm crazy.

[MrEdwardNigma]

You made it up. And it IS excessivly harsh. Strong men could swim in fullplate. Assuming masterwork, that's a -10 to a swim check...doable. Under your system it would be a -30....if that's all he had. Just fullplate armor, no weapon. That's basically impossible for most mortals. Level 20's would have trouble with that.

And that makes sense too, doesn't it? No-one was ever able to swim wearing armor. It's just can't be done, except maybe for a couple of meters, but otherwise, no.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

That's interesting to see how things have changed. Back in 2E, the rule was that anyone with Light encumbrance (or worse) just sank automatically. This meant, however, that if you had a STR of at least 17 and no other gear, you could theoretically swim in full plate mail.

actually pages 120/121 PHB have some pretty detailed rules for swimming in 2nd edition. You needed to have movement reduced to 1/3rd or less before you sink. So I guess it would really be between moderate and heavy to sink like a stone (my math brain just blew a gasket here, I'm a bit tired).

There are some more detailed rules concerning constitution and swim time.

[JadedDM]

You know, you're right. I completely misread that. It says 'reduced to 1/3' and I thought it said 'reduced by 1/3'.

So anyone with heavy encumbrance or worse would sink instantly.

[Dausuul]

aye. I would try it however, if a few rescue divers were in the water aswell, all I'd have to do is open the visor to get air. and yes, before you ask, I'm crazy.

Er... if the reason you can't get air is that you're underwater and weighted down by 50 pounds of steel, opening the visor will not help you.

[Matthew]

You're thinking of Frederick Barbarossa, Holy Roman Emperor. Saladin was a Saracen lord.

Indeed, and he was 60+. The exact circumstances of his death are somewhat sketchy.

[John Campbell]

Are you aware that Saladin the Crusading Hero fellah drowned jumping into water in his armour? The career soldier, in the prime of his life. Walking in armour is hard,
Uh, no. No, it isn't. Walking in armor is easy. Sprinting in armor is easy, though it'll tire you out more quickly than without armor. Getting up after being knocked down in armor is easy. Doing somersaults in armor is easy. Doing chin-ups in armor... hard, but possible.

Trust me on this; I've done them all.


swimming in armour is a deathwish. Let alone 40-50lbs of steel that limits your movements, covers your body and fills with water.
There are mentions in the sagas of people swimming rivers in mail hauberks. This should be taken with a pinch of salt, because they're sagas, not pure historical accounts - at the very least, these were exceptional people.

I've been meaning one of these days to try swimming in my hauberk myself, see how plausible those saga accounts really are, but haven't gotten around to it. (Don't worry, lifeguards; I'm not dumb enough to try it anywhere that I can't easily get back to the surface by other means if it turns out that I can't.) I've heard that other re-enactor types have been able to do it, but I've never heard an account that was closer than third-hand, so I don't know if there's any truth in them.

But, in any case, D&D characters are more like those saga heros than they are like ordinary people.

[Copacetic]

This is actually a difficult subject. Some full plate armor could weigh up to 250 pounds. (See Battle of Agincourt. The French knights fell over, and couldn't get up fast enough to stop the English from stabbing them.) You really couldn't even run in that stuff, though. It was just for show and noble-on-noble tournaments where they whacked at each other with really long broadswords without moving their feet.

Actual foot infantry armor wouldn't weigh that much. A five or ten pound brick is pretty hard to swim with. The only chainmail I've ever worn weighed a good 10-15 pounds.

My verdict: -1 per 5 pounds of weight is pretty harsh, but also realistic. However, beyond sixth level, nearly any dnd character is superhuman. Not even counting the whole bendingbreaking-the-laws-of-physics magic issue.

Swimming relies on bouyancy a lot, and is helped by the fact that people float in water. It's possible to keep your nose above water without moving, it's just a little tricky. Added metal really weighs a lot. Now that I think about it, maybe -1 per 5 pounds of metal or other heavy stuff, and no penalty for stuff like backpacks, which are pretty close to neutrally bouyant if filled with books.

[Matthew]

This is actually a difficult subject. Some full plate armor could weigh up to 250 pounds. (See Battle of Agincourt. The French knights fell over, and couldn't get up fast enough to stop the English from stabbing them.) You really couldn't even run in that stuff, though. It was just for show and noble-on-noble tournaments where they whacked at each other with really long broadswords without moving their feet.

Are you sure about that? I've never heard of a harness being that heavy.

[Skjaldbakka]

Strong men could swim in fullplate.

A claim like this requires a cited source, and one more credible than wikipedia. Otherwise your talking out of your ***.

[TheDarkOne]

One thing to consider for the realism of swimming in armor vs. carrying weights is the idea that it's possible that the distribution of weight around you body is significant to you ability to swim. Ie someone with 10 pound weights strapped to his hands and feed would probably find it harder to swim then someone who had 40 pound distributed evenly over his body. Of course I'm not saying that you should take stuff like this into account in D&d. I'm just pointing out that just because you couldn't swim while carrying 50 pounds of weight distributed around your body in one given way doesn't necessarily mean you couldn't swim with the weight distributed differently around your body.

(Actually, if anyone knows at what rate they accelerate upwards while swimming that would give you a good estimate on how much extra weigh you could add and still be able to at least maintain your current position in the water.)