Why Cast Haste?

[ByzantiumBhuka]

Haste seems to be a very popular spell here, and that makes sense-- who could say no to a second action? For a 3rd-level spell slot, though, it's decidedly lackluster.

From a pure damage perspective, imagine the spell on the party fighter, so that they have an extra action. A single weapon attack would normally have a cap of 2d6+5, or roughly 12 damage; even if 3/4 of those attacks hit, you're going to have only about 36 damage over four rounds of combat. Compare that to Fireball, where if you can get 3 targets in the AoE, that's ~42 damage even if everyone makes their save, and up to ~84 damage if everyone fails it. The +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves for one combat really doesn't seem enough to make up for that much damage.

Of course, there is the other option in which the target effectively gets a Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide). If you want maneuverability, though, there's already Expeditious Retreat or Fly; if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a rogue; and if you care so much about getting an extra Disengage, you probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place.

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.

[RogueJK]

Disregard.

[Quietus]

Double that. You get an extra Action, not an extra attack. For a 5th level Fighter, an Action is 2x attacks. (And the party has to be at least 5th level before the caster could be casting 3rd Level Haste anyway).

So that's 8 additional attacks over 4 round. If 3/4 of those (6) hit, that's an additional 72 average damage. After Level 11, that's be an additional 108 damage from the Fighter now getting 3x attacks per additional Action, still assuming only 3/4 of them (9) hit.

And that's not counting any other source of additional damage available on those besides just Greatsword+STR.

Then factor in the defensive bonuses.


Better than a Fireball.

Haste explicitly limits you to a single additional attack. It's best used on individuals who have significant damage per hit - Rogues are one of the best targets, as they can use Haste to attack, and if they hit, can use their main action to ready an attack on someone else's turn, getting a second sneak attack.

[RogueJK]

You're right. I was going off memory.

Still, you can leverage it into higher damage through other means, including using the Action for casting an additional spell or cantrip (especially a BB/GFB cantrip + weapon attack), or by making that lone extra Attack with an additional source of weapon damage (GWM, Smite, Hunter's Mark, etc.)

And yes, using it to Ready an off-turn Sneak Attack is a good option. One of the few ways for Rogues to double their Sneak Attacks output in a round. (Other options include Battlemaster's Commander's Strike, or a Rogue/Battlemaster's Riposte, or Order Cleric's Voice of Authority.)

[Kane0]

Haste is great not because it does one thing extremely well but because it does multiple things notably well. It provides extra mobility, defense and action economy/damage output all for one spell known and slot.
Which means a caster choked for decisions like the Sorc love it for being a multipurpose spell as well as being easily metamagicked.
You can also potentially cheese by casting it on a foe then dropping concentration on purpose.

An extra action is not automatically one attack, thats just one option. Using an item, dodging, retreating or repositioning, etc are all options.

Also, a fighter is about the worst martial to give one extra attack to. Barbarians, rogues, paladins and even rangers often pull off more damage per hit. Monk would be about as bad since both increase their damage output by number of attacks rather than the individual strength of them (plus extra speed is sort of wasted on a monk)

[RogueJK]

You can also potentially cheese by casting it on a foe then dropping concentration on purpose.

That'd be hard to pull off, because it requires the target to be a willing creature.

So you'd have to be planning an ambush on a friendly (or at least non-hostile) target, and convince them to let you Haste them willingly, before springing the trap.



Monk would be about as bad since both increase their damage output by number of attacks rather than the individual strength of them (plus extra speed is sort of wasted on a monk)

Unless you're fighting a medium-sized group of moderately powerful enemies, the Monk is flush with Ki, and you want them to be able to Stun one extra enemy per round.

[Necromas]

I think the main advantage to haste is that it has a wide range of benefits that are useful in a variety of situations. You're always getting multiple defensive and offensive perks so you can always find a way to take advantage of the spell. Ya it's not stronger than the best level 3 defense spells or the best level 3 offense spells, but fireball won't turn a giants greataxe swing into a miss or help you save against a dragons breath. And Fly won't help you take enemies out of the fight.

Even just looking at damage and comparing it to fireball, there are going to be a lot of adventuring days where you're just not going to get more chances to get a good fireball off than you have spell slots to use it with. You also have to take into account that fireball spreads it's damage out wide, even if you do a lot of damage to multiple targets, if none of them dies that round then it might not have been better than doing less damage but taking down one specific target. And 2d6+5 is a good baseline but haste attacks can also be big nova hits, if you have someone that can reliably hit with great weapon master, or has the opportunity to use it to trigger a smite or extra sneak attack, than those numbers go up pretty quick and you can more easily take an enemy down before they can fight back.

You can also cast it before a fight starts if you know there are enemies in the next room or something. So if you've got the spell slots you can use haste *and* throw fireballs without losing action economy. And twin spell makes it so much better.

[RogueJK]

Also, Sorcerers can Twin Haste, for twice the goodness. (They can't twin Fireball.)

[MaxWilson]

Haste seems to be a very popular spell here, and that makes sense-- who could say no to a second action? For a 3rd-level spell slot, though, it's decidedly lackluster.

From a pure damage perspective, imagine the spell on the party fighter, so that they have an extra action. A single weapon attack would normally have a cap of 2d6+5, or roughly 12 damage; even if 3/4 of those attacks hit, you're going to have only about 36 damage over four rounds of combat. Compare that to Fireball, where if you can get 3 targets in the AoE, that's ~42 damage even if everyone makes their save, and up to ~84 damage if everyone fails it. The +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves for one combat really doesn't seem enough to make up for that much damage.

Of course, there is the other option in which the target effectively gets a Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide). If you want maneuverability, though, there's already Expeditious Retreat or Fly; if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a rogue; and if you care so much about getting an extra Disengage, you probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place.

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.

Haste for another weapon attack is a fairly poor use of a spell, even if you do something good like throw a net to give yourself and your team advantage on other attacks this round, or have a Rogue Ready an attack after his turn to get two Sneak Attacks in the same round.

However, mobility is very powerful in 5E, and Haste for increased movement and a free Dash/Disengage/Hide isn't bad at all, despite the risk. Unlike Expeditious Retreat it doesn't eat up your bonus action, and it increases your base movement speed too--if you want to do something like grapple an enemy and drag them across Spike Growth repeatedly, you get 2x to 4x the speed increase out of Haste that you would out of Expeditious Retreat. And it's definitely not true that "if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a Rogue," because if you're casting Haste you're a spellcaster, and most spellcasters don't multiclass to Rogue. E.g. you don't see people going Warlock 2/Rogue 2/Sorc X, and yet a Warlock 2/Sorc X can cast Haste and can use the Hide option anytime he's obscured from the enemy (e.g. behind total cover or beyond Darkvision range thanks to Hasted movement), or he can give it to someone else, or both via Twin Haste. More to the point, he can do that AND still cast his normal complement of spells like Fireball.

You definitely want Stealth proficiency to make this useful, but of course you can get that via background on any PC, along with Perception.

[Omni-Centrist]

As others have pointed out, theres not a occasion for fireball all the time. If you're a sorcerer, you can twin it and assist from.the backlines. That definitely helps if the fight is against one really tough enemy like a giant, do two of your buddies with a GWM or SS build can seriously put out the hurt.

[LudicSavant]

Haste seems to be a very popular spell here, and that makes sense-- who could say no to a second action? For a 3rd-level spell slot, though, it's decidedly lackluster.

From a pure damage perspective, imagine the spell on the party fighter, so that they have an extra action. A single weapon attack would normally have a cap of 2d6+5, or roughly 12 damage; even if 3/4 of those attacks hit, you're going to have only about 36 damage over four rounds of combat. Compare that to Fireball, where if you can get 3 targets in the AoE, that's ~42 damage even if everyone makes their save, and up to ~84 damage if everyone fails it. The +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves for one combat really doesn't seem enough to make up for that much damage.

Of course, there is the other option in which the target effectively gets a Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide). If you want maneuverability, though, there's already Expeditious Retreat or Fly; if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a rogue; and if you care so much about getting an extra Disengage, you probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place.

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.

When deciding what buffs to take, you should always be considering who your allies are and what mechanics synergize with them best.

Relative to other martials, Fighters tend to have a high number of attacks but low damage per attack. This means that things like Holy Sword will be unusually effective on them, because the benefit will be multiplied by their high number of attacks. Whereas Haste will be unusually ineffective on them, because the benefit will by multiplied by their (relatively) low damage per attack. By contrast, someone like a Rogue can get a larger proportional damage benefit out of Haste (via readying an attack to get off-turn sneak attack damage, for instance).

That said Haste does several things at once. It grants a lot of mobility (which gets to be a bigger and bigger deal the higher the tactical level of the table is), it grants some defense, and it grants an extra action (only one of the options for which is 'one extra weapon attack'). It's potent in a lot of situations. It is, however, also a fundamentally risky choice; Haste has much greater consequences for getting interrupted than most spells. You not only lose some or all of the benefit of your Action and spell slot, but an ally's turn as well. Twinned Haste is even riskier in this regard.

It's a good spell that must be used with care, with a mind for both who you're casting it on, how much benefit they're likely to get out of it in the current situation, and how capable the enemy is of interrupting you.

[Yakk]

You cast it on the barbarian 5 with a gwm flaming sword who hits for 29 per swing.

You cast it on the rogue assassin 7 who hits for 24 damage per shot.

You cast it on the bladesinger 6 booming blader.

You drop it on the dual lance pegasus mounted swords bard who has tenser's transformation up.

Fireball scales with # of foes. Haste with allies' charop.

[Asisreo1]

Oops, absolutely mistaken. Could have sworn Dodge was in Haste even as I was staring at the spell. Disengage, Dash, and Hide are absolutely great uses of the spell, though.

[StoneSeraph]

You cast it on the barbarian 5 with a gwm flaming sword who hits for 29 per swing.

You cast it on the rogue assassin 7 who hits for 24 damage per shot.

You cast it on the bladesinger 6 booming blader.

You drop it on the dual lance pegasus mounted swords bard who has tenser's transformation up.

Fireball scales with # of foes. Haste with allies' charop.

See also: the paladin who wants to pour as many smites as he can into the BBEG in one turn, then better survive into the next turn and pour even more into it if it's still not dead.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

In 5 campaigns I don't think we've ever used it. Yes it's probably worth it on a Rogue. Twinning by a Sorc: I always figured it was one of the most likely ways to end up with a TPK through one bad roll.

[Gignere]

See also: the paladin who wants to pour as many smites as he can into the BBEG in one turn, then better survive into the next turn and pour even more into it if it's still not dead.

Sometimes you and your buddies are fighting stuff with higher movement and can kite the melee that will be a great time to cast haste especially if the target has legendary resistances and or magic resistance so it’s hard to land a save or suck.

[StoneSeraph]

Sometimes you and your buddies are fighting stuff with higher movement and can kite the melee that will be a great time to cast haste especially if the target has legendary resistances and or magic resistance so it’s hard to land a save or suck.

At which point it would be great on a monk that doesn't mind burning Ki. When you absolutely need the boss to stop killing everyone, an extra hasted swing coupled with Stunning Strike might force out that last Legendary Resistance.

[ByzantiumBhuka]

So what I'm getting from this is that the versatility of the spell, along with the potential for much higher individual damage rolls, can indeed make the spell worthwhile. Thanks for the clarification!

[Gignere]

So what I'm getting from this is that the versatility of the spell, along with the potential for much higher individual damage rolls, can indeed make the spell worthwhile. Thanks for the clarification!

Also +2 AC along with using dodge action and attacking with the haste action may allow a tank to basically become unhittable and can hold a door / entrance where only one or two enemies may fit at a time.

[diplomancer]

One benefit of the extra Attack action that has not been pointed out yet; though it's limited to only one weapon attack (boo! hiss!), it is, indeed, the Attack action; which means that you can do something else with your regular action and still trigger any bonus action that requires you taking the Attack action, like PAM, TWF, or Shield Master. So, for instance, a Paladin could, in a pinch, lay on hands to get a lot of hit points back while only giving up some of his offense for the turn, not all of it.

[Frogreaver]

I’ve never been a huge fan of haste.

That said it’s biggest benefit is mobility as it can allow your melee warriors to not waste turns closing on ranged enemies or your ranged allies to more effectively kite. The AC benefit is nice.

The extra attack is probably the worst reason to use the spell.

[stoutstien]

Haste seems to be a very popular spell here, and that makes sense-- who could say no to a second action? For a 3rd-level spell slot, though, it's decidedly lackluster.

From a pure damage perspective, imagine the spell on the party fighter, so that they have an extra action. A single weapon attack would normally have a cap of 2d6+5, or roughly 12 damage; even if 3/4 of those attacks hit, you're going to have only about 36 damage over four rounds of combat. Compare that to Fireball, where if you can get 3 targets in the AoE, that's ~42 damage even if everyone makes their save, and up to ~84 damage if everyone fails it. The +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves for one combat really doesn't seem enough to make up for that much damage.

Of course, there is the other option in which the target effectively gets a Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide). If you want maneuverability, though, there's already Expeditious Retreat or Fly; if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a rogue; and if you care so much about getting an extra Disengage, you probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place.

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.

I'm not the biggest fan of haste but it does what it says on the label and it does it well. As long as you you can address the safety concerns of losing concentration prematurely and dispel threats it is one of the better spells for the slot.

[Mr Adventurer]

One benefit of the extra Attack action that has not been pointed out yet; though it's limited to only one weapon attack (boo! hiss!), it is, indeed, the Attack action; which means that you can do something else with your regular action and still trigger any bonus action that requires you taking the Attack action, like PAM, TWF, or Shield Master. So, for instance, a Paladin could, in a pinch, lay on hands to get a lot of hit points back while only giving up some of his offense for the turn, not all of it.

This is a good point. Flurry of Blows, also.

[Guy Lombard-O]

One benefit of the extra Attack action that has not been pointed out yet; though it's limited to only one weapon attack (boo! hiss!), it is, indeed, the Attack action; which means that you can do something else with your regular action and still trigger any bonus action that requires you taking the Attack action, like PAM, TWF, or Shield Master. So, for instance, a Paladin could, in a pinch, lay on hands to get a lot of hit points back while only giving up some of his offense for the turn, not all of it.

Or that one extra attack could be a shove prone action, letting all your regular attacks (and those of your allies) score advantage.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

The thing is, to make it worth casting, haste doesn't just have to be a better option than other 3rd level spells; it has to be a better option than every other concentration spell in your arsenal. So not only are we talking about Slow and Hypnotic Pattern, but every other option from levels 1-4 for a 7th level caster. Even something like Web can be really impactful in a dungeon situation, or if you are a MC Cleric (as our last Transmuter was), upcast Bless to 2nd level and give every member of a 4 person party a +2.5 to all saves and attacks. Now, I would argue this is better than Haste, but even if it's a saw off, the 2nd level spell leaves you the 3rd level slot to cast Fireball or what have you. If we are comparing to the 4th level options, Banish (particularly with portent) or Polymorph, it's not close.

[J-H]

Last night, the level 13 monk (hasted) cleared 440' of distance in a single round (move+haste move+dash+step of the wind). It was an important part of the party's plan to punch into an enemy fort really, really quickly.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I rarely prepare and even select Haste, but it is definitely one of the first spells I try to acquire through Scrolls — it’s my go-to contingency plan against monsters with spell resistance.

[SharkForce]

one other point in haste's favour is that it is pretty much always useful. it may not frequently be the absolute best thing you could be doing, but it is relatively easy to know how effective it will be before you take the action, and it is almost never going to be useless since you only really need one person around who can do something useful for it to have value.

it works in fights against rakshasas, creatures with resistance or immunity to magic damage, creatures with high saving throw modifiers, magic resistance, or legendary saving throws, creatures you otherwise weren't prepared to fight

but yeah, there are definitely better situations to use it than giving a fighter one extra attack, and if that's all you expect out of it I wouldn't cast it (and if you don't have potential superior options, I might not prepare or even know it at all).

but for example if you have a moon druid or another caster that often uses polymorph, that can boost the value a lot; an extra 1d8+7 damage from a sword-and-board fighter isn't much, but an extra 7d7+6 coming from a giant ape throwing a boulder is far more impressive (and also ranged, if that matters). a fire elemental that can dash and disengage while charging through all your enemies isn't half bad either, or you could grant a summoned, mind controlled, or otherwise allied monster an extra attack that has a nice rider (poison, grapple/restrain, paralyzing touch, etc) (with the added benefit that if the enemy knocks them out of the fight for a turn, at least it wasn't a PC). as noted, it can give "once per turn" damage boosts (particularly from rogues) another use per round, and if the mobility is important that can be a big deal as well, if you don't have another option for it.

so, all in all, it is a very reliable spell. you can get a pretty good idea of what you're going to get out of it before you cast it, and what it does will usually be at least decent, and may actually be quite good depending on who you have available to cast it on.

I would rarely consider it to be plan A, and if people are suggesting that it should frequently be your best option I disagree strongly. but it makes a pretty good all-purpose plan B that stands a fair chance of doing well even when your other options don't look good.

[Bilbron]

Haste seems to be a very popular spell here, and that makes sense-- who could say no to a second action? For a 3rd-level spell slot, though, it's decidedly lackluster.

From a pure damage perspective, imagine the spell on the party fighter, so that they have an extra action. A single weapon attack would normally have a cap of 2d6+5, or roughly 12 damage; even if 3/4 of those attacks hit, you're going to have only about 36 damage over four rounds of combat. Compare that to Fireball, where if you can get 3 targets in the AoE, that's ~42 damage even if everyone makes their save, and up to ~84 damage if everyone fails it. The +2 to AC and advantage on Dex saves for one combat really doesn't seem enough to make up for that much damage.

Of course, there is the other option in which the target effectively gets a Cunning Action (Dash, Disengage, Hide). If you want maneuverability, though, there's already Expeditious Retreat or Fly; if Hide is actually helpful, you're probably already a rogue; and if you care so much about getting an extra Disengage, you probably shouldn't be in melee in the first place.

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.When I cast it, it's on my party's Conquest Paladin and I say to myself "yeah, baby, I bumped up his AC to base 26, and he's fast enough to run people down and gets a free Disengage! Oh, and I guess he does a little extra damage too."

[Delph]

Last night, the level 13 monk (hasted) cleared 440' of distance in a single round (move+haste move+dash+step of the wind). It was an important part of the party's plan to punch into an enemy fort really, really quickly.

that's not much...

I have Tabaxi Monk on 2nd lvl and I can do 320 ft. On 4th lvl it will be 400 ft (by mobile feat) and on fifth it will be 800 ft if I get haste... :D

[diplomancer]

One other aspect that's not been mentioned yet; because it works best as a "buff your martial buddy" spell, it's fun, and increases party cohesiveness. When you cast Fireball, you feel awesome (at least on levels 5-7); when you cast Haste, your fellow player feels awesome (and you are happy for providing that feeling). It's a buff that remains relevant for all levels, and unlike many other 3rd/4th level spells, actually increases in power as the game progresses.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you cast Haste on your Fighter, then lose concentration so that they suffer the penalty of their own lost turn, could they use their Action Surge to take an action on that turn anyway?

[stoutstien]

If you cast Haste on your Fighter, then lose concentration so that they suffer the penalty of their own lost turn, could they use their Action Surge to take an action on that turn anyway?

Action surge adds an action not a turn.

[Mr Adventurer]

Action surge adds an action not a turn.

Yes, I know.

God, you made me look it up myself. Haste says "the target can't move or take actions until after its next turn".

I suppose this might technically mean a Fighter couldn't take the action granted by Action Surge, either. I could potentially see a DM ruling otherwise, though.

[stoutstien]

Yes, I know.

God, you made me look it up myself. Haste says "the target can't move or take actions until after its next turn".

I suppose this might technically mean a Fighter couldn't take the action granted by Action Surge, either. I could potentially see a DM ruling otherwise, though.
Lol. Or the fighter could action surge but it would do absolutely nothing because they can't take the action granted.

[Mr Adventurer]

Lol. Or the fighter could action surge but it would do absolutely nothing because they can't take the action granted.

That's what I said wasn't it?

[stoutstien]

That's what I said wasn't it?

Maybe? IDK 😐. Just flipped sleep schedule so atm I'm not even sure what day it is.
*Rereading it you are correct and my comment is redundant.

[Mr Adventurer]

Maybe? IDK 😐. Just flipped sleep schedule so atm I'm not even sure what day it is.
*Rereading it you are correct and my comment is redundant.

No probs, take care dude!

[Sindal]

Sometimes, instead of blowing something up with a bomb, you want to turn a party member into a missile and watch them launch

[Bloodcloud]

The wizard in my campaign often ended up using it on the paladin, and not so much for the extra attack but to get him in smite range a turn early.

My BBEGs haven't lasted very long so far...

[diplomancer]

Sometimes, instead of blowing something up with a bomb, you want to turn a party member into a missile and watch them launch


The wizard in my campaign often ended up using it on the paladin, and not so much for the extra attack but to get him in smite range a turn early.

My BBEGs haven't lasted very long so far...

I love the juxtaposition of these two posts; as a matter of fact, "launching a missile" was how the wizard in my campaign described it when he cast Haste on my Paladin.

[mistajames]

I admit, I usually don't take Haste unless I'm playing a Sorcerer. That said, I think it's a good spell and well worth taking. There are some upsides to Haste over other spells:


Sorcerers can Twin it. This alone is a massive benefit - twinned Haste does bonkers levels of damage.
Eldritch Knights don't have a better pre-fight buffing option until Improved Invisibility. In fact, it's worth casting for most of the non-full casters that can get it.
Rogues can trigger sneak attack twice a round with haste. Use their free Haste action on their turn to attack, triggering Sneak Attack. Then hold their main action to go off on the next turn, triggering sneak attack a second time.
Buffs are 100% reliable. There is no save, the benefits start applying right away.
The secondary effects are very relevant. Doubling speed on most reach or ranged character basically means they'll never get attacked. Each added point of AC is mathematically more valuable than the last (in that each added point of AC increases your effective HP, or eHP more than the last).
The Haste attack can qualify a character to attack with an off-hand weapon, effectively adding 2 additional attacks per round instead of 1. This is very important for some builds which use dual wielding and GFB/BB.
Damage riders on your buff target (BB/GFB, Class Features, Magic Items, Feats) stack with Haste bonus attacks. It's very hard to ramp up Fireball's damage by comparison.

[heavyfuel]

The thing that gets me about Haste is the awfully punishing penalty for breaking Concentration.

Why does it have that!?

I'm usually careful enough with my positioning that keeping Concentration isn't a huge a problem, but if I do lose it, my friend has to eat dirt for an entire round.

I feel like as a 3rd level Concentration spell it'd be par for the level. Good, but not great. I recently made a post doubting Fireball's usefulness, and I think Haste-sans-penalty would be even more niche than Fireball.

Either the penalty should go away or the spell should be buffed. As it stands, I don't think I'd ever take it again.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

There have been several references to GFB and BB on this thread. My understanding of Haste is that you cannot use these cantrips with the extra attack provided by Haste. In order to use GFB and BB you need to cast a spell (which you cannot do with the bonus action) and the weapon attack is part of the cantrip. Pretty sure these posters are wrong.

[SharkForce]

One other aspect that's not been mentioned yet; because it works best as a "buff your martial buddy" spell, it's fun, and increases party cohesiveness. When you cast Fireball, you feel awesome (at least on levels 5-7); when you cast Haste, your fellow player feels awesome (and you are happy for providing that feeling). It's a buff that remains relevant for all levels, and unlike many other 3rd/4th level spells, actually increases in power as the game progresses.

eh, that isn't unusual at all. increasing spell DCs mean that debuffs work more reliably, or that they work equally reliably but on more dangerous targets, generally speaking. likewise, most buffs are working on a more powerful ally in exactly the same way haste is. fireball doesn't stay as good, but direct damage is more like the exception than the rule.


There have been several references to GFB and BB on this thread. My understanding of Haste is that you cannot use these cantrips with the extra attack provided by Haste. In order to use GFB and BB you need to cast a spell (which you cannot do with the bonus action) and the weapon attack is part of the cantrip. Pretty sure these posters are wrong.

so far, they've either been in the context of bladesinger (which has a special ability in the newest version that may or may not work with haste) or in using the attack action to trigger something that occurs on said attack action, like two-weapon fighting... so, for example, you use your standard action to cast a weapon cantrip, then you use the extra action from haste to make the attack action, which in turn allows your bonus action off-hand attack (or polearm mastery bonus action attack, or whatever else it may be).

[StoneSeraph]

The thing that gets me about Haste is the awfully punishing penalty for breaking Concentration.

Why does it have that!?

I'm usually careful enough with my positioning that keeping Concentration isn't a huge a problem, but if I do lose it, my friend has to eat dirt for an entire round.

I feel like as a 3rd level Concentration spell it'd be par for the level. Good, but not great. I recently made a post doubting Fireball's usefulness, and I think Haste-sans-penalty would be even more niche than Fireball.

Either the penalty should go away or the spell should be buffed. As it stands, I don't think I'd ever take it again.

Maybe you just hate 3rd-level spells. :smallwink:

Joking aside, say you have a paladin in your party who knows you have haste and is more than excited to burn all of their smites on a BBEG in a fight; they understand the risks, but they want to give it a whirl anyway, trusting your ability to maintain Concentration. Out of curiosity, what 3rd-level (or lower) Concentration spell would you choose for such an encounter instead, and how would you sell that idea to the paladin?

Bonus points if you can make the sell with the "... and we don't have to worry about Legendary Resistances" kicker.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Maybe you just hate 3rd-level spells. :smallwink:

Joking aside, say you have a paladin in your party who knows you have haste and is more than excited to burn all of their smites on a BBEG in a fight; they understand the risks, but they want to give it a whirl anyway, trusting your ability to maintain Concentration. Out of curiosity, what 3rd-level (or lower) Concentration spell would you choose for such an encounter instead, and how would you sell that idea to the paladin?

Bonus points if you can make the sell with the "... and we don't have to worry about Legendary Resistances" kicker.

The player controlling our Wizard 13/ Cleric 1 came away from the fight with Tiamat saying he'd have been better off to cast Bless on the 5 of us than everything else he tried. Of course you'd have to be multi-classed, have a feat, or be a Divine Sorc to do this. If you have the option, +2.5 to everyone's saves and attacks are better than a marginal benefit to one character that could result in a big downside on a failed Con save.

[diplomancer]

eh, that isn't unusual at all. increasing spell DCs mean that debuffs work more reliably, or that they work equally reliably but on more dangerous targets, generally speaking. likewise, most buffs are working on a more powerful ally in exactly the same way haste is. fireball doesn't stay as good, but direct damage is more like the exception than the rule

I'm not so sure of that. Let's consider the two iconic 4th level buffs: Polymorph scales terribly; awesome at level 7, pretty bad at level 15. Greater invisibility gets less and less useful as more enemies start having extra senses that allow them to perceive you. Haste is always relevant.

As to debuffs, though they scale well, the fact that condition immunities become more frequent as you go up in level means that many times they will simply not work at all. My Bard, with an instrument of the Bards, LOVES Hypnotic Pattern; it's an "I win" button, what with the disadvantage to saves. But as we are now in tier 3, I realized I'd better get Confusion as well for a more versatile (but weaker) debuff, as more and more enemies appear with immunity to the Charmed condition.

[Contrast]

My problem with Haste has never been what it does. While the additional action gets all the attention, the package of bonus movement, AC and the action (which itself enables a load of extra mobility) is really attractive.

My problem with Haste is - why the huge downside of losing a turn if concentration goes down? Its just such a huge potential liability and I'm really not convinced the spell would be OP without it. If the spell was identical but without that caveat I still don't see that Haste would be totally off the power scale for a 3rd level spell.

[diplomancer]

My problem with Haste has never been what it does. While the additional action gets all the attention, the package of bonus movement, AC and the action (which itself enables a load of extra mobility) is really attractive.

My problem with Haste is - why the huge downside of losing a turn if concentration goes down? Its just such a huge potential liability and I'm really not convinced the spell would be OP without it. If the spell was identical but without that caveat I still don't see that Haste would be totally off the power scale for a 3rd level spell.

I think the downside is a "tradition" thing, not necessarily a "balance" thing. In 2nd edition, Haste would age you 1 year (and there were age-related ability score adjustments- and the rules specifically stated that if your aging was magical, you'd get the physical downsides, but not the mental upsides). I don't know if there were downsides on subsequent editions, though I would suspect that there were.

That said, once Haste starts being really good compared to other 3rd level options(i.e, around tier 3), Casters usually have their Concentration very well protected, making that downside relatively rare. The only times it happened to me, it was because the 1' duration expired (which means that I took full advantage of the spell, making the downside a worthwhile cost- specially considering my Greater Steed could take me out of harm's way for that 1 round)

[Mr Adventurer]

I think the downside is a "tradition" thing, not necessarily a "balance" thing. In 2nd edition, Haste would age you 1 year! I don't know if there were downsides on subsequent editions, though I would suspect that there were.

That said, once Haste starts being really good compared to other 3rd level options(i.e, around tier 3), Casters usually have their Concentration very well protected, making that downside relatively rare. The only times it happened to me, it was because the 1' duration expired (which means that I took full advantage of the spell, making the downside a worthwhile cost- specially considering my Greater Steed could take me out of harm's way for that 1 round)

There was no downside to Haste in 3rd ed.

[Tanarii]

My problem with Haste is - why the huge downside of losing a turn if concentration goes down? Its just such a huge potential liability and I'm really not convinced the spell would be OP without it. If the spell was identical but without that caveat I still don't see that Haste would be totally off the power scale for a 3rd level spell.
Yup. Personally I'd never use it, and I'd be angry with another player that had their PC cast it on my PC. On par with fireballing my PC without prior understanding that it was going to be that kind of game.

[shipiaozi]

As I wrote in my guide, haste is a pretty bad spell, only viable(not good) when twinned.
+1 extra attack for someone with 3 attacks roughly equals to +3-4 Attack roll, speed and +2AC roughly equals to +3-4AC, about half of the effect of bless.

[heavyfuel]

Maybe you just hate 3rd-level spells. :smallwink:

Joking aside, say you have a paladin in your party who knows you have haste and is more than excited to burn all of their smites on a BBEG in a fight; they understand the risks, but they want to give it a whirl anyway, trusting your ability to maintain Concentration. Out of curiosity, what 3rd-level (or lower) Concentration spell would you choose for such an encounter instead, and how would you sell that idea to the paladin?

Bonus points if you can make the sell with the "... and we don't have to worry about Legendary Resistances" kicker.

The whole "Haste is good because it gets better with levels" is a terrible argument. You don't have to deal with Legendary Resistances at level 5, and by the level you do start having to worry about them, there are far better spells for you to be concentrating on.

By level 9, against an enemy with LR, I'd much rather be concentrating on a Wall of Force or Animate Objects or Polymorph.

By level 5, since no enemy will have LR, Concentration is better spent on stuff like Hypnotic Pattern or Web. Any of these spells are better than Haste if you're fighting 3 or more enemies (since at least one is bound to fail their save). Against one or two big enemies, the Summon X spells (from Tasha's) are better since you're very unlikely to break Concentration and you just gave your party a massive bonus to Action Economy instead of a single extra attack per round.

[diplomancer]

The whole "Haste is good because it gets better with levels" is a terrible argument. You don't have to deal with Legendary Resistances at level 5, and by the level you do start having to worry about them, there are far better spells for you to be concentrating on.

By level 9, against an enemy with LR, I'd much rather be concentrating on a Wall of Force or Animate Objects or Polymorph.

By level 5, since no enemy will have LR, Concentration is better spent on stuff like Hypnotic Pattern or Web. Any of these spells are better than Haste if you're fighting 3 or more enemies (since at least one is bound to fail their save). Against one or two big enemies, the Summon X spells (from Tasha's) are better since you're very unlikely to break Concentration and you just gave your party a massive bonus to Action Economy instead of a single extra attack per round.

Saying "haste is bad because at higher levels you can concentrate on more powerful spells" is a fallacy. Sure, you could do that all the time, if you had unlimited higher level slots. On a game where you actually have to decide how much power to bring to an encounter because you can run out later, being able to use a 3rd level slot to potentialize the power of a 13th level character in an average/hard encounter is very good. Polymorphing a 13th level character? Only in a "break glass in case of emergency" situation, when you are willing to diminish a party member's capabilities to keep him up and running. Honestly, I don't think it's worth even preparing Polymorph on those higher levels.

[DwarfFighter]

So why should you cast Haste? It's effectively outclassed by all the other options on the table.

It is a single spell that lets you do a wide selection of more stuff on your turn, as opposed to specialized spells that let you do very specific things. Get Hasted and decide from round to round how to use it.

[heavyfuel]

Saying "haste is bad because at higher levels you can concentrate on more powerful spells" is a fallacy. Sure, you could do that all the time, if you had unlimited higher level slots. On a game where you actually have to decide how much power to bring to an encounter because you can run out later, being able to use a 3rd level slot to potentialize the power of a 13th level character in an average/hard encounter is very good. Polymorphing a 13th level character? Only in a "break glass in case of emergency" situation, when you are willing to diminish a party member's capabilities to keep him up and running. Honestly, I don't think it's worth even preparing Polymorph on those higher levels.

Wait, are we dealing with multiple encounters where enemies spot Legendary Resistances in Tier 2? Cuz I'm assuming that if the party meets an enemy with LR in Tier 2, it's the kind of encounter where you don't wanna pull punches.

Casting Haste if you meet an enemy with LR is only the best strategy if you are level 5, in which case I assume Haste's main job is the increased movement speed so that you can run the hell away from this encounter.

By level 13, Polymorphing isn't exactly "break the glass in case of emergency". Level 13 emergencies call for Forcecages.

Yeah, Haste is great if you are:
1 - high level;
2 - fighting an easy encounter where you don't want to spend your high level spells;
3 - you cannot take enemies out of the fight using other lower/same level spells like Web or Hypnotic Pattern.

You need all 3 for Haste to be good.

That's super niche.

People are always going to find niche uses for spells, just like in that discussion about Jump.

If a spell is good only if X, Y and Z happen simultaneously, then it's a niche spell. And you can't afford many niche spells with the few preparation slots 5e gives.

[Asisreo1]

As I wrote in my guide, haste is a pretty bad spell, only viable(not good) when twinned.
+1 extra attack for someone with 3 attacks roughly equals to +3-4 Attack roll, speed and +2AC roughly equals to +3-4AC, about half of the effect of bless.
Bless doesn't give any AC bonus (or attack roll penalties).

+2 AC is already a massive boost in AC. It's roughly equivalent to a +2 Armor, which is Very Rare and shouldn't even be seen until roughly tier 3.

The advantage to dex saves is roughly the same as Bless but the single spell of haste allows a character to evade most damage.

[heavyfuel]

Bless doesn't give any AC bonus (or attack roll penalties).

+2 AC is already a massive boost in AC. It's roughly equivalent to a +2 Armor, which is Very Rare and shouldn't even be seen until roughly tier 3.

The advantage to dex saves is roughly the same as Bless but the single spell of haste allows a character to evade most damage.

True, but Bless affects 5 people. In a party with 4+ members, it's better than Haste unless you really need that movement speed bonus.

[Segev]

True, but Bless affects 5 people. In a party with 4+ members, it's better than Haste unless you really need that movement speed bonus.

Here’s the thing, though: the cleric can cast Bless...and the wizard can cast Haste. In the same combat, it needs be.

[diplomancer]

Here’s the thing, though: the cleric can cast Bless...and the wizard can cast Haste. In the same combat, it needs be.

Or, even better, the Paladin casts Bless while the Cleric casts Spirit Guardians.

[Contrast]

That said, once Haste starts being really good compared to other 3rd level options(i.e, around tier 3), Casters usually have their Concentration very well protected, making that downside relatively rare. The only times it happened to me, it was because the 1' duration expired (which means that I took full advantage of the spell, making the downside a worthwhile cost- specially considering my Greater Steed could take me out of harm's way for that 1 round)

Even if you can pass DC10 Con saves all day, everyone is vulnerable to being incapacitated. If the enemy wizards see the sorc Twin Haste, you best believe they're gonna hit you with a Hold Person and you can roll that +0 wisdom save.

[mistajames]

Yeah, Haste is great if you are:
1 - high level;
2 - fighting an easy encounter where you don't want to spend your high level spells;
3 - you cannot take enemies out of the fight using other lower/same level spells like Web or Hypnotic Pattern.

You need all 3 for Haste to be good.

Or you drop a Haste on your GWM Barbarian party member at level 5 to allow him to close on the squishy caster BBEG (80ft movement) and drop an extra reckless power attack on them every round. Or to allow your Rogue to drop another 1d8+4+3d6 sneak attack. Or it allows your L6 Moon Druid ally to get a Charge + Hooves attack in Giant Elk form for an added 4d8+4 damage, or to force multiple 4d8+5 Gore attacks in Rhino form.

If the extra movement allows your ally to attack the enemy backline where they wouldn't otherwise be able to, then this should be factored into how you assess the spell. Personally, I've never been in a position where I've regretted casting Haste.

[SharkForce]

I'm not so sure of that. Let's consider the two iconic 4th level buffs: Polymorph scales terribly; awesome at level 7, pretty bad at level 15. Greater invisibility gets less and less useful as more enemies start having extra senses that allow them to perceive you. Haste is always relevant.

As to debuffs, though they scale well, the fact that condition immunities become more frequent as you go up in level means that many times they will simply not work at all. My Bard, with an instrument of the Bards, LOVES Hypnotic Pattern; it's an "I win" button, what with the disadvantage to saves. But as we are now in tier 3, I realized I'd better get Confusion as well for a more versatile (but weaker) debuff, as more and more enemies appear with immunity to the Charmed condition.

yes, polymorph doesn't scale well (or rather, it scales just fine, the only problem being that you run out of sufficiently high CR beasts to polymorph into... if you use a 3rd party book to gain access to new beasts - some of which are AL-legal, for example - it continues to scale quite nicely. and of course, it continues to pack its full punch as a debuff spell). but by and large, other buff spells do. your ability to find *one* buff that doesn't scale doesn't say much.

and while there are certainly a few more enemies that can see invisible creatures at high levels, it certainly isn't all *that* common. neither is charm immunity. if you're facing more and more enemies with charm immunity, I suspect it has more to do with the specific adventure you're in rather than charm immunity being more common (for reference, undead and mindless or controlled creatures are the main things that have charm immunity, although extremely powerful celestials seem to feature it a lot as well... but even if you *are* in a campaign where you're up against celestials, the typical fight should probably not be against half a dozen solars or planetars anyways).

[mistajames]

yes, polymorph doesn't scale well (or rather, it scales just fine, the only problem being that you run out of sufficiently high CR beasts to polymorph into... if you use a 3rd party book to gain access to new beasts - some of which are AL-legal, for example - it continues to scale quite nicely. and of course, it continues to pack its full punch as a debuff spell). but by and large, other buff spells do. your ability to find *one* buff that doesn't scale doesn't say much.

Even if you stick to the Giant Ape, you can take a low-HP ally and give them 157 disposable HP. Even if it takes a CR20 baddie 2 rounds to chew through the ape's HP, that's 2 rounds that they're not focusing on the rest of the party for a low-level slot. 2x 3d10+6 fist attacks is hardly gamebreaking, but it's not terrible.

I remember in one really tough fight in my high-level campaign, I repeatedly cast Polymorph on one of my front-liner so that they could eat attacks from the CR30 BBEG that we were fighting, only to cancel my concentration after the BBEG took his turn. Absorbed hundreds of HP worth of damage for a few L4 slots. Can't underestimate the value of a good HP cushion.

IMO, Polymorph should really only allow forms at 1/2 the target's CR or level anyways. Kind of busted as-is.

[heavyfuel]

Here’s the thing, though: the cleric can cast Bless...and the wizard can cast Haste. In the same combat, it needs be.

True that. My post was in reference to a Wizard who had dipped Cleric, so they had to chose one or the other.


Or you drop a Haste on your GWM Barbarian party member at level 5 to allow him to close on the squishy caster BBEG (80ft movement) and drop an extra reckless power attack on them every round. Or to allow your Rogue to drop another 1d8+4+3d6 sneak attack. Or it allows your L6 Moon Druid ally to get a Charge + Hooves attack in Giant Elk form for an added 4d8+4 damage, or to force multiple 4d8+5 Gore attacks in Rhino form.

If the extra movement allows your ally to attack the enemy backline where they wouldn't otherwise be able to, then this should be factored into how you assess the spell. Personally, I've never been in a position where I've regretted casting Haste.

All of this is great, but is any of this worth a 3rd level slot + Concentration + potentially screwing your teammate?

For a 3rd level slot + Concentration you can probably take out the squishy caster AND some of his friends yourself by forcing a Wis save. Unless they are a Cleric or Druid, they are unlikely to make their save. It's not like the Barbarian couldn't Dash to reach the caster. How many spells have a range greater than 80ft?

If you happen to have a spell that blocks vision, you can also drop one on top of the caster and that either takes them out of the fight of forces them to come close, so you also accomplish the same.

[Pondincherry]

You cast it on the barbarian 5 with a gwm flaming sword who hits for 29 per swing.

You cast it on the rogue assassin 7 who hits for 24 damage per shot.

You cast it on the bladesinger 6 booming blader.

You drop it on the dual lance pegasus mounted swords bard who has tenser's transformation up.

Fireball scales with # of foes. Haste with allies' charop.

A Potion of Speed has been one of the best purchases of my pegasus-mounted Paladin/Swords Bard with a homebrew damage-doubling Artifact Lance of Pelor and Tenser's Transformation.

[BloodSnake'sCha]

The two times speed and armour bonus is the tastiest part of haste IMO.
The extra action for extra mobility flexibility is great.

Also most of the time haste attack is more than 2d6+5.
Sometimes it is 2d6+15 or 1d8+stunning strike or extra chance to get SA for the rogue.

The fact you can cast it with only one action and have it in effect for multiple turns make it better than fireball 42 damage IMO.
Fireball is nice but it is just damage for a spell slot, looks like waste to me(unless you have a wand of fireballs and a free action and atonement slut).

[SharkForce]

IMO, Polymorph should really only allow forms at 1/2 the target's CR or level anyways. Kind of busted as-is.

my preferred solution is to cap it at the spell slot in CR. so 4 by default, but you could use a level 5 slot to turn someone into a CR 5 creature, a level 7 spell slot for a CR 7 creature, etc. my method does mean you can technically turn a CR 1/8 commoner ally into a much more powerful creature, but I'm not particularly sure I really care since you could summon a CR 4 creature with a spell anyways. that does somewhat nerf the combat buff aspect of polymorph, but frankly I'm pretty ok with that too, since it lets your party actually play their own character without sacrificing combat effectiveness, and also because it was pretty overpowered in the first place. elephant is not more powerful than a level 7 fighter, while a giant ape probably has more raw power (though potentially less cool stuff to do, depending on fighter subclass).

[diplomancer]

Even if you stick to the Giant Ape, you can take a low-HP ally and give them 157 disposable HP. Even if it takes a CR20 baddie 2 rounds to chew through the ape's HP, that's 2 rounds that they're not focusing on the rest of the party for a low-level slot. 2x 3d10+6 fist attacks is hardly gamebreaking, but it's not terrible.

I remember in one really tough fight in my high-level campaign, I repeatedly cast Polymorph on one of my front-liner so that they could eat attacks from the CR30 BBEG that we were fighting, only to cancel my concentration after the BBEG took his turn. Absorbed hundreds of HP worth of damage for a few L4 slots. Can't underestimate the value of a good HP cushion.

IMO, Polymorph should really only allow forms at 1/2 the target's CR or level anyways. Kind of busted as-is.

And why was the BBEG attacking what was, to him, a minor threat (assuming it was a threat at all, I'm surprised a CR30 monster is not simply immune to nonmagical attacks) instead of going after you, or other party members that were NOT polymorphed? I suppose the Giant Ape was grappling the BBEG, but at 40% odds of success (assuming a +9 vs a + 10) with one chance per round (multiattack does not allow for multiple grapple attempts), I'm surprised this tactic worked for several rounds, even assuming that the BBEG does not have ways of simply breaking the grapple with some of his legendary actions.


yes, polymorph doesn't scale well (or rather, it scales just fine, the only problem being that you run out of sufficiently high CR beasts to polymorph into... if you use a 3rd party book to gain access to new beasts - some of which are AL-legal, for example - it continues to scale quite nicely. and of course, it continues to pack its full punch as a debuff spell). but by and large, other buff spells do. your ability to find *one* buff that doesn't scale doesn't say much.

and while there are certainly a few more enemies that can see invisible creatures at high levels, it certainly isn't all *that* common. neither is charm immunity. if you're facing more and more enemies with charm immunity, I suspect it has more to do with the specific adventure you're in rather than charm immunity being more common (for reference, undead and mindless or controlled creatures are the main things that have charm immunity, although extremely powerful celestials seem to feature it a lot as well... but even if you *are* in a campaign where you're up against celestials, the typical fight should probably not be against half a dozen solars or planetars anyways).

I wasn't trying to "find a buff that doesn't scale well"; I was comparing Haste with the 2 iconic 4th level buffs, pointing out that Haste, while less powerful than they at the level you get it, does not lose its advantages as the game progresses. I can say it was, by far, the most frequent buff spell used on a campaign that went all the way to 20th level.

Between blindsight, truesight and tremorsense, about 2/3 of monsters with CR above 15 can detect invisible creatures. I would call that pretty common. Ways of getting Advantage also become more common as the game progresses, so Greater Invisibility becomes more and more a good, albeit situational, defensive buff, losing some of its offensive capability.

Now about debuffs; ok, let's say charm immunity is not that common. Now add to that creatures with magic resistance or fey ancestry (I'm not going to add legendary resistances because a mass debuff like Hypnotic Pattern is not a spell you use on the BBEG). Note, I am still NOT claiming that Haste is better than Hypnotic Pattern, it isn't for most situations. But there are still enough situations where Hypnotic Pattern will not be "the right tool for the job" and Haste might well be; a good spell for a Wizard to add to his spellbook, or, possibly, for a Sorcerer to replace Fireball with as he advances in level.

[mistajames]

And why was the BBEG attacking what was, to him, a minor threat (assuming it was a threat at all, I'm surprised a CR30 monster is not simply immune to nonmagical attacks) instead of going after you, or other party members that were NOT polymorphed? I suppose the Giant Ape was grappling the BBEG, but at 40% odds of success (assuming a +9 vs a + 10) with one chance per round (multiattack does not allow for multiple grapple attempts), I'm surprised this tactic worked for several rounds, even assuming that the BBEG does not have ways of simply breaking the grapple with some of his legendary actions.

This was about two years ago. I was an 18+ illusionist (simulacrum, summons, magic items, the works) at a decent range, and the guy was mostly a melee bruiser (IIRC he was a souped-up death knight). He had no way to reasonably get to me and attack in a turn. If he tried, he'd be triggering opportunity attacks. Also, I only kept the polymorph up as a HP cushion - I kept my concentration up during the death knight's turn, and dropped concentration before my ally took his turn (so he would get all his attacks off). It was a while ago... I might have held an action to cast the spell on whoever the death knight attacked? Knowing that game, there may have been other shenanigans involved (i.e. - Glyph of Warding + Magic Circle). Don't remember 100%.

At the time, I was mostly focused on keeping our damage dealers alive so that we could put this guy down without losing half the party. Kind of cheesy I know, but the BBEG was dropping like 150+ damage/turn and I was low on spells.


All of this is great, but is any of this worth a 3rd level slot + Concentration + potentially screwing your teammate?

For a 3rd level slot + Concentration you can probably take out the squishy caster AND some of his friends yourself by forcing a Wis save. Unless they are a Cleric or Druid, they are unlikely to make their save. It's not like the Barbarian couldn't Dash to reach the caster. How many spells have a range greater than 80ft?

If you happen to have a spell that blocks vision, you can also drop one on top of the caster and that either takes them out of the fight of forces them to come close, so you also accomplish the same.

The chance of screwing your teammate is pretty low if you're doing it right. Typical conservative caster stuff - cast the buff, stay out of range, stay behind the BSF. You also typically take War Caster/Resilient to keep up Concentration, especially at higher levels.

I wouldn't roll with Haste if I'm maximizing my primary casting stat ASAP, but there are some builds which don't do this. So you just focus on ritual, buffs, walls, and summons.

As I said, I like Haste, but I usually don't take it unless I'm playing a Sorcerer. There is so much good/essential stuff to take at L3 that I often just don't have room for it. On a Wizard, I figure I need Counterspell, Hypnotic Pattern/Fear/Slow and Tiny Hut, which only leaves 1 additional level 3 selection by level 6.

Still, if I find a scroll or spellbook or a caster willing to teach the spell, there's a good chance I'm preparing it sometimes.

[SharkForce]

I wasn't trying to "find a buff that doesn't scale well"; I was comparing Haste with the 2 iconic 4th level buffs, pointing out that Haste, while less powerful than they at the level you get it, does not lose its advantages as the game progresses. I can say it was, by far, the most frequent buff spell used on a campaign that went all the way to 20th level.

Between blindsight, truesight and tremorsense, about 2/3 of monsters with CR above 15 can detect invisible creatures. I would call that pretty common. Ways of getting Advantage also become more common as the game progresses, so Greater Invisibility becomes more and more a good, albeit situational, defensive buff, losing some of its offensive capability.

maybe your group uses adult dragons and the generals of hell as trash mobs. I'd hazard a guess that most people don't (personally, from my perspective that stat block should be considered as more of a starting point; you never face "a balor", you're facing an enemy with a name, a history, and a bunch of minions, and it is entirely possible - probable even - that a given balor will have at least some minor difference from that stat block, though not necessarily something relevant to combat). I'd also hazard a guess that for most people, when they meet such beings, neither haste nor greater invisibility are at the top of the list of spells they're thinking might be appropriate for the situation. but sure, if you're fighting a marilith or an ancient dragon, haste is marginally superior to greater invisibility. unless your extremely intelligent, highly-mobile foe with millenia of experience recognizes that you are concentrating on haste and figures out that they can go after you to break your concentration *and* hurt someone else in your party at the same time.

[cutlery]

If you're an eldritch knight (or ranger or paladin with access; and you'd probably plan on war caster or res:con for them if you were using any concentration spells), it's a general combat utility spell. Some defenses, some movement, and an extra attack.

It probably not better at one thing than many other options, but it does a lot of things.

It is a 3rd level slot, and I can imagine times when I'd reach for it instead of shadow blade (particularly with no dim light advantage) or spirit shroud. I don't know if I'd reach for it over greater invis, but I'd hate to find out after using g. invis that an important enemy can see through it.

[diplomancer]

maybe your group uses adult dragons and the generals of hell as trash mobs. I'd hazard a guess that most people don't (personally, from my perspective that stat block should be considered as more of a starting point; you never face "a balor", you're facing an enemy with a name, a history, and a bunch of minions, and it is entirely possible - probable even - that a given balor will have at least some minor difference from that stat block, though not necessarily something relevant to combat). I'd also hazard a guess that for most people, when they meet such beings, neither haste nor greater invisibility are at the top of the list of spells they're thinking might be appropriate for the situation. but sure, if you're fighting a marilith or an ancient dragon, haste is marginally superior to greater invisibility. unless your extremely intelligent, highly-mobile foe with millenia of experience recognizes that you are concentrating on haste and figures out that they can go after you to break your concentration *and* hurt someone else in your party at the same time.

I specifically made the argument about how haste scales well in the late, high-tier, game while other 3rd/4th level buffs don't (even mentioning how, by that level, the odds of the penalty actually happening are fairly small, as casters will always have, by then, at least one of Res-Con/Warcaster, maybe both). So, yes, a CR 15+ monster is more or less what I was thinking about, they usually start appearing at the beginning of tier 3. For that matter, if you make the same analysis with CR10+, it's still more than half of the monsters with the senses I've mentioned. Is that low enough to be relevant to the claim I've made? Haste was definitely far more often used, starting from tier 3, than Gr. Invisibility/Polymorph, in my experience.

[5eNeedsDarksun]

As much as I've been one of the posters on this thread that don't love Haste, I do like the idea of leveraging a Bonus Action as well. This has me thinking of a Fighter/Wizard that uses Haste regularly. Fighter 1 gets me Armor and a Pole Arm and PAM gets me at least 2 attacks per round (sometimes 3) on top of casting spells once I have Wizard 5. I tend to like Fighter Mages and this seems to make a viable character. Also, something like GFB becomes decent in moderate encounters with a character like this.