Wizard Party!

[kingcheesepants]

So I saw a post in another thread mentioning that wizards are so versatile in 5e that you can make an entire party with them. I can't get the idea out of my head, so let's do it. Maybe they're a mages guild or maybe they're a research team or a group of student wizards in over their heads, but a team of all wizards makes a lot of thematic sense, now let's try We'll make a party entirely of wizards and try to fill as many roles as we can. All WotC published races and feats are fine(including Tasha's alt rules), but no multiclassing. If you want to outlie general strategies in each tier of play and what would be the strengths and weaknesses of such a party that's all the better.

Face: Half Elf Illusionist. Metamagic Adept, Prodigy, Telekinetic.

Tank: Hobgoblin Abjurer. Moderately Armored, Res Con, eldritch adept.

Striker: Winged Tiefling Evoker. Elemental Adept.

Support: Mark of Healing Halfling Transmuter. Bountiful Luck

They all like the same stats and any of them can take the usual Alert, Lucky feats if wanted. The team as a whole lacks any good way of dealing good damage without magic, if they get sent to an anti magic plane or fight a strong foe with anti magic field it'll be a problem. Perhaps summons can fix that? However being an all wizard team they can share their spellbooks and thus effectively learn 8 spells per level up. Money will most likely be tight and they'll all want a lot of the same items but overall I don't think the balance is too bad. The illusionist has a decent Cha, bonus proficiencies that let him pick up persuasion/deception and can use subtle spell when needed later he can pick up expertise in deception and then an invisible mage hand. The abjurer has armor and the feats needed to stand in the front lines and tank without losing concentration. He might also pick up eldritch adept for the free mage armor which would let him power his ward as much as he wanted. The striker is just your typical blaster wizard I like the ability to fly so that he can always have the best line of sight to hit who he needs to. The support has some healing spells through the mark and the transmuter abilities also synergize well with healing and support.

If you all have some ideas for making an even better all wizard team let me know.

[diplomancer]

Hmm, I like this idea, let's see:
1- Tank: Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer. If multi-classing is allowed, get 1 Artificer Level, preferably NOT at level 1.
2- Face: Yuan-ti Trueblood Enchanter
3- Support/Control: Mark of Healing Halfling Diviner, bountiful luck feat
4- control/illusions: V. Human (or Variant Ancestry, probably better because Darkvision, but slightly worse in levels 1-3) illusionist, get the Eldritch adept feat for Misty Visions

At least one of them (probably the face) should get the metamagic feat for Careful spell metamagic for when blasting is needed and you can't avoid hitting the tank.

[Mitchellnotes]

Oh! I like this idea. Is dipping allowed? I think an all wizard's party is interesting. This is a party that once it starts to get momentum is going to get ridiculous, but may have a bit of a tough start. Eventually, once planar binding, simulacrum, etc. come online, a cabal of wizards would just get ridiculous. That being said, in general, 4 wizards is going to have lots of control options, lots of utility options, lots of aoe options, but lack single target damage and recovery. since the strength of the wizard is really through their core class (spells), subclasses have a lot of flexibility. what may be most weird with this party is that it encourages specialists to actually not obtain spells in their schools on level up as it is cheaper to transcribe them later. Having someone pick up a bit of a cha score with face skills would be good, and having someone pick up thieves tools through background would also be important. I'm not going to go into specific detail about feats, but in general moving towards 20 int, picking up fey touched, res. constitution, and/or warcaster are all good options. Leadership could be good for the party face (probably the diviner? maybe conjurer?) to help shore up HP overall, but CHA won't in general be a priority. elemental adept for the evoker would also be helpful.

If dips are allowed (edit: whoops! missed that in the OP. leaving the basics of this but pulling thoughts into the true party below:

1) nuclear wizard (evoker with hexblade dip)
2) abjurer (iron wizard or mark of warding dwarf)
3) conjurer (with perhaps a dip in unity cleric)
4) diviner (mark of healing halfling?)

With the dip free version:

1) evoker (picking up hex through fey touched for use with scorching ray, etc) - this character is to help shore up single target damage. even if you don't buy the empowered evocation interaction with magic missile, hex and scorching ray can do good single target damage with little investment. using concentration for hex also is less painful since others in the party can use concentration for other things that you may want to use concentration on. between hex and scorching ray, or magic missile and empowered evocation (if you go for that sort of thing), this character should still be able to do very good single target damage. when single target damage isn't needed, becomes a great AoE user and area denier due to sculpting spells. also through magic missile can do damage through legendary resistances

2) abjurer (still likely iron wizard or mark of warding dwarf) - this character is meant to be able to take damage, and is the dedicated counterspell/dispel magic user. also provides strong support or general wizarding as needed, and can help mitigate damage spikes

3) conjuror (picking up at least medium armor through being dwarf or githyanki or something along those lines): this character is intended to help with positioning. benign transposition can help get another wizard out of a bad situation, and should have some defenses to help if they get caught in a tight place themselves. Don't forget, one can misty step after using benign transposition. can also help with tanking through summons.

4) diviner (still mark of healing halfling) - this character is designed to help with control, help make a save in a pinch, and help with recovery. anyone could really pick up the mark of healing items, but your evoker is better off saving slots for spike damage

If the marks aren't allowed, healing would be a struggle early on. Picking up a healer feat would be very beneficial in those circumstances.

Blade singer could also be utilized to help with damage and could either replace the evoker or diviner. Again, subclasses are really less important than a cohesive overall strategy. Dropping overlaying control/damage over time effects, playing well with multiple control spells, etc. You could drop a necromancer in there to clog up the battlefield, utilize an enchanter for control, etc. Many encounters could likely be mostly resolved with little spell slot investment, and even legendary resistance could be burnt through with a concerted effort or bypassed. The key would be to make sure everyone is on the same page. It wouldn't work for one person to be trying to punch through legendary resistance and have everyone else setting up their own situations.

I should note that I did not use an illusionist due to how impacted their effectiveness can be due to how illusions are ruled. If there is a liberal interpretation, having an illusionist could have a large impact on control overall.

[RogueJK]

Tank: Hobgoblin Abjurer. Moderately Armored, Res Con, eldritch adept.


I think a Bladesinger with the Tough feat would make a better Tank than a Hobgoblin Abjurer with the Moderately Armored feat.

Bladesingers eventually reach 23 AC while bladesinging (Mage Armor + 5 DEX + 5 INT), versus just the 19 of Medium Armor + 2 DEX + Shield. They also wouldn't need Resilient CON or Eldritch Adept, so you could have additional available ASIs compared to the Abjurer, to further boost your stats and/or take a Tank feat like Sentinel.

And they can put out more melee damage than an Abjurer thanks to being able to Attack+BB/GFB, rather than just BB/GFB. Especially when you start stacking on additional damage per hit from stuff like Shadow Blade.


With the Bladesinger taking the Tough feat, the Abjurer's Ward would only have 5 more max HP than the Bladesinger's personal HP. And if you choose Hill Dwarf, it's only 4 more. (Although the Abjurer could "heal" the Ward themselves, versus the Bladesinger having to be healed or rest in order to recover their HP.)


Mark of Warding Dwarf would be a good choice for race, for Armor of Agathys to make up for the missing 5 Ward HP, and free daily Mage Armor to free up a 1st level slot for an additional casting of Agathys/Shield/Absorb Elements each day.

Hill Dwarf also works, if Eberron content is off the table, for slightly higher HP all the time versus Armor of Agathys some of the time.

[LudicSavant]

I think a Bladesinger with the Tough feat would make a better Tank than a Hobgoblin Abjurer with the Moderately Armored feat.

Bladesingers eventually reach 23 AC while bladesinging (Mage Armor + DEX + INT), versus just the 19 of Medium Armor + DEX + Shield. They also wouldn't need Resilient CON or Eldritch Adept, so their stats could be higher at any given level than the Abjurer and/or you could take a Tank feat like Sentinel.

And they can put out more melee damage than an Abjurer thanks to being able to Attack+BB/GFB, rather than just BB/GFB. Especially when you start stacking on additional damage per hit from stuff like Shadow Blade.


With the Bladesinger taking the Tough feat, the Abjurer's Ward would only have 5 more max HP than the Bladesinger's personal HP. And if you choose Hill Dwarf, it's only 4 more. (Although the Abjurer could "heal" the Ward themselves, versus the Bladesinger having to be healed or rest in order to recover their HP.)


Mark of Warding Dwarf would be a good choice for race, for Armor of Agathys to make up for the missing 5 Ward HP, and free daily Mage Armor to free up a 1st level slot for an additional casting of Agathys/Shield/Absorb Elements each day.

Hill Dwarf also works, if Eberron content is off the table, for slightly higher HP all the time versus Armor of Agathys some of the time.

I have a few bullet points to add to this comparison, for your consideration.

First, with point buy, getting 20 Dex, 20 Int, and the Tough feat takes all of your ASIs (except for VHumans and CLs), and then 1 or more Mage Armor slots on top of that. The Abjurer isn't just trading in Tough for Moderately Armored, they're also trading in 2 Dex ASIs and whatever slots you spent on Mage Armor for whatever they want.

Second, Bladesong doesn't have 100% uptime. It's only (Prof) uses per day. But even if you have less encounters per day than your proficiency, it still doesn't have 100% uptime, because it's not active until you get your first turn and bonus action. It also can be interrupted by any effect that causes you to become incapacitated (stun, paralysis, or just getting yo-yoed off the death gate), leaving you with a low AC character stuck in a dangerous position, and eating further into your action economy and resources in order to recast it.

Third, an optimized Abjurer is getting a lot more out of their ward than just 5 extra hit points over Tough, especially at the point where we're talking about the Bladesinger actually having 23 AC + Tough (e.g. level 19). At that point they have not one but two infinitely regenerating wards (because their Simulacrum has one too, and they can share), Magic Resistance, improved counterspells, and tons of regen just as a side effect of normal casting of things they'd want to use anyways. I know you mentioned that they have ward regen, but I don't think you accounted for how big a deal this becomes -- it's a bigger factor than the original ward.

Fourth, moderately armored casters have an itemization advantage (in any game where there are magic items), simply by virtue of being able to equip shields, which not only can provide +X AC benefits but do so at a lower rarity tier than armors. Obviously, not relevant in all campaigns, but important in some.

[CTurbo]

Hobgoblin Abjurer - Int>Con>Dex. Max Int + Moderately Armored.
Halfling Diviner - Int>Dex>Con. Max Int + Bountiful Luck
High Elf Bladesinger - Dex>Int>Con. Max Dex then Int
Yuan-ti Enchanter - Int>Cha>Con. Max Int + either Skilled or Magic Initiate:Bard.

If there can be a 5th,

Vhuman Illusionist - Int>Con=Dex + Healer

[Grey Watcher]

My first 5E game was this exact premise! (Technically, it started out as Pathfinder and we converted to what was then D&D next.) We had eight players, though only 3-5 of us went on any given adventure. The premise was that we were all apprentices to a group if powerful wizards (one of each specialty) who went missing in an explosion.

Though, weirdly, the Half-Orc Evoker was our tankiest character and me, the Human Abjurer was the squishy wizard among squishy wizards.

It was really a lot of fun! I kinda want to do the same thing again but with other classes.

[mistajames]

This sounds awesome!


"The Trickster" - Variant Human Illusionist. VH Feat: Eldritch Adept (Misty Visions).
"The Duelist" - Stat-swapped Yuan-Ti Pureblood Bladesinger.
"The Blaster" - Variant Human Evoker - VH Feat: Fey Touched (Hex).
"The General" - Variant Human Necromancer. Feat: Inspiring Leader.
"The Seer" - Halfling Diviner, Feat: Bountiful Luck.

[Mitchellnotes]

I've been thinking about the single target damage aspect of this challenge, as it seems like the area that may be lacking (at least in my own mind). I wanted to explore just how "bad" it may be. I wanted to see just how many rounds it would take for a party of 4 wizards using just Magic Missile at the highest spell slots available to take down a monster of their challenge rating. Magic Missile being used as something that can't miss, utilizes a type of damage that is rarely resisted, and being a very middle of the road option that is available at all levels.

Now, it should be noted that there are going to be levels where there wouldn't be enough slots available to actually do this given the max number of highest level slots available at that level, and that this analysis is very, very basic, but the outcome being that even just doing magic missiles that the party wouldn't be that bad off to take down the 1 big bad (though utilizing the rarest resources to do so)

I'm terrible at html tables, but the columns should be CR, avg hp for monsters in mm for that challenge rating, max spell level available, avg magic missile damage for that spell slot, damage per round for the 4 wizards, and number of rounds to kill a monster using the max spell slots given their average health.

1/8 21 1 10.5 42 0.50
1/4 43 1 10.5 42 1.02
1/2 60 1 10.5 42 1.43
1 78 1 10.5 42 1.86
2 93 1 10.5 42 2.21
3 108 2 14 56 1.93
4 123 2 14 56 2.20
5 138 3 17.5 70 1.97
6 153 3 17.5 70 2.19
7 168 4 21 84 2.00
8 183 4 21 84 2.18
9 198 5 24.5 98 2.02
10 213 5 24.5 98 2.17
11 228 6 28 112 2.04
12 243 6 28 112 2.17
13 258 7 31.5 126 2.05
14 273 7 31.5 126 2.17
15 288 8 35 140 2.06
16 303 8 35 140 2.16
17 318 9 38.5 154 2.06
18 333 9 38.5 154 2.16
19 348 9 38.5 154 2.26
20 378 9 38.5 154 2.45
21 423 9 38.5 154 2.75
22 468 9 38.5 154 3.04
23 513 9 38.5 154 3.33
24 558 9 38.5 154 3.62
25 603 9 38.5 154 3.92

Now, this certainly doesn't stand up to classes designed to do specifically this (looking at you sharpshooter samurais and sorclocks), but overall isn't as bad as I thought using a very suboptimal approach

[mistajames]

I've been thinking about the single target damage aspect of this challenge, as it seems like the area that may be lacking (at least in my own mind). I wanted to explore just how "bad" it may be. I wanted to see just how many rounds it would take for a party of 4 wizards using just Magic Missile at the highest spell slots available to take down a monster of their challenge rating. Magic Missile being used as something that can't miss, utilizes a type of damage that is rarely resisted, and being a very middle of the road option that is available at all levels. (...)

With a little bit of op-fu, Magic Missile damage is very viable.

Base: 3*(1d4+1) [avg 10.5]

Hex (via Fey Touched feat or via Warlock 1) adds 1d6 to each missile. 3*(1d4+1d6+1) [avg 21]

Evoker 10 adds your Int to a single spell roll. MM is a single spell roll. 3*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 36]. Not bad for a level 1 spell. But we can do better. At level 5, it does 7*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 84].

Evoker 14 adds Overchannel. Level 5 MM does: 7*(4+6+1+5) [Total 112] We're in Meteor Swarm territory at this point.

Take it to its logical conclusion, Evoker 10/Artillerist 6/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2. Precast Hex and Hexblade's Curse and action surge. Level 9 Magic Missile. 11*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [214.5 avg] + 10*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [195 avg] Win initiative, kill Demogorgon, no save.

EDIT: Yikes, Hex indeed does not work with Magic Missile.

[LudicSavant]

With a little bit of op-fu, Magic Missile damage is very viable.

Base: 3*(1d4+1) [avg 10.5]

Hex (via Fey Touched feat or via Warlock 1) adds 1d6 to each missile. 3*(1d4+1d6+1) [avg 21]

Evoker 10 adds your Int to a single spell roll. MM is a single spell roll. 3*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 36]. Not bad for a level 1 spell. But we can do better. At level 5, it does 7*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 84].

Evoker 14 adds Overchannel. Level 5 MM does: 7*(4+6+1+5) [Total 112] We're in Meteor Swarm territory at this point.

Take it to its logical conclusion, Evoker 10/Artillerist 6/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2. Precast Hex and Hexblade's Curse and action surge. Level 9 Magic Missile. 11*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [214.5 avg] + 10*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [195 avg] Win initiative, kill Demogorgon, no save.

Note: Hex doesn't work with Magic Missile since it's not an Attack. But Hexblade's Curse does.

You'd be better off just going Hexblade 1 / Evoker 17 / Fighter 2 or Hexblade 1 / Evoker 19, because the higher level Wizard spells (like Simulacrum, Crown of Stars, Contingency, etc etc) can do more to up the ante on your combo than any of the extra multiclassing would.

[Gignere]

With a little bit of op-fu, Magic Missile damage is very viable.

Base: 3*(1d4+1) [avg 10.5]

Hex (via Fey Touched feat or via Warlock 1) adds 1d6 to each missile. 3*(1d4+1d6+1) [avg 21]

Evoker 10 adds your Int to a single spell roll. MM is a single spell roll. 3*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 36]. Not bad for a level 1 spell. But we can do better. At level 5, it does 7*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 84].

Evoker 14 adds Overchannel. Level 5 MM does: 7*(4+6+1+5) [Total 112] We're in Meteor Swarm territory at this point.

Take it to its logical conclusion, Evoker 10/Artillerist 6/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2. Precast Hex and Hexblade's Curse and action surge. Level 9 Magic Missile. 11*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [214.5 avg] + 10*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [195 avg] Win initiative, kill Demogorgon, no save.

Hex doesn’t work with MM. It only adds damage on an attack, MM is not an attack. The hexvoker is really only using hexblade’s curse and not hex to deal it’s nova damage with MM.

[Mitchellnotes]

With a little bit of op-fu, Magic Missile damage is very viable.

Base: 3*(1d4+1) [avg 10.5]

Hex (via Fey Touched feat or via Warlock 1) adds 1d6 to each missile. 3*(1d4+1d6+1) [avg 21]

Evoker 10 adds your Int to a single spell roll. MM is a single spell roll. 3*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 36]. Not bad for a level 1 spell. But we can do better. At level 5, it does 7*(1d4+1d6+1+5) [avg 84].

Evoker 14 adds Overchannel. Level 5 MM does: 7*(4+6+1+5) [Total 112] We're in Meteor Swarm territory at this point.

Take it to its logical conclusion, Evoker 10/Artillerist 6/Fighter 2/Hexblade 2. Precast Hex and Hexblade's Curse and action surge. Level 9 Magic Missile. 11*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [214.5 avg] + 10*(1d4+1d6+1d8+1+2+6) [195 avg] Win initiative, kill Demogorgon, no save.

Not to go on a tangent, but I don't think hex works with MM, esp if you stack evoker 10. MM is either 1 attack X number of times, or X attacks. the nuclear wiz uses the hexblade curse (which is why the "dipped" version of my party dips that way). There are those that dislike the MM damage stacking, esp with the evoker 10 ability (though, for what its worth, id let evoker 10 and hexblades curse work, but not hex). Hex and scorching ray can work well even if MM optimization is frowned upon.

EDIT: That's what I get for taking my time to respond!

[LudicSavant]

Just a few of the ways to deal more single target damage with Wizards (in addition to aforementioned Magic Missiles and Scorching Rays and such):

- Use all of your action economy. Familiars, pre-casts, Concentration, summons, bonus actions (like Crown of Stars), Contingency, @#$%ing Simulacrum, etc. That last one especially is a huge bump from 13+. But all of them are significant, and all of them are all-too-frequently overlooked by inexperienced Wizards.
- Use the class features designed to enhance it. Evoker is the most obvious choice here, but you also have stuff like Necromancer.
- Use sources of repeating damage, like hazard combos. Basically, stuff that gets extra damage from an "enters" clause that can be applied multiple times (usually once a turn, but multiple times a round). There are a lot of ways to make them reliably proc repeatedly, and these can stack up damage really fast. Particularly if multiple mages are doing it. There's also stuff like, say, locking someone inside a Wall with a Sickening Radiance or something.
- Retributive damage. Contingency, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, Hellish Rebuke, and the like can make it rather suicidal to actually hit you with a melee attack. Warcaster can make OAs hit unusually hard for tanky or retributive mages that you don't want to attack, too.

[kingcheesepants]

Just a few of the ways to deal more single target damage with Wizards (in addition to aforementioned Magic Missiles and Scorching Rays and such):

- Use all of your action economy. Familiars, pre-casts, Concentration, summons, bonus actions (like Crown of Stars), Contingency, @#$%ing Simulacrum, etc. That last one especially is a huge bump from 13+. But all of them are significant, and all of them are all-too-frequently overlooked by inexperienced Wizards.
- Use the class features designed to enhance it. Evoker is the most obvious choice here, but you also have stuff like Necromancer.
- Use sources of repeating damage, like hazard combos. Basically, stuff that gets extra damage from an "enters" clause that can be applied multiple times (usually once a turn, but multiple times a round). There are a lot of ways to make them reliably proc repeatedly, and these can stack up damage really fast. Particularly if multiple mages are doing it. There's also stuff like, say, locking someone inside a Wall with a Sickening Radiance or something.
- Retributive damage. Contingency, Armor of Agathys, Fire Shield, Hellish Rebuke, and the like can make it rather suicidal to actually hit you with a melee attack. Warcaster can make OAs hit unusually hard for tanky or retributive mages that you don't want to attack, too.

Yep, damage isn't really a problem when you can set up kill zones and prepare things beforehand and with multiple sources of control and hazard generation a wizard team can be even more effective than a regular balanced team. BTW ludic it was one of your comments that inspired me to post this thread.

[Ir0ns0ul]

I would try to do something more well-rounded:

- Tank: Mark of Warding Dwarf Abjurer (AoA + Arcane Ward)
- Striker: Hobgoblin Evoker (following the Iron Wizard guidelines; good AC and saves can make you position more aggressively in order to increase AoE blasting effectiveness)
- Control: Goblin Enchanter (with Shadow Touched, leveraging Invisibility, Nimble Escape and Hypnotic Gaze)
- Support: Mark of Healing Halfling Diviner (with Lucky)