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View Full Version : Rules Q&A Disintegrate on an Intelligent Riverine Weapon: What Happens?



Doctor Despair
2020-12-21, 08:33 AM
A riverine weapons has this quality:


Being enclosed in magical force, it is immune to all damage and is unaffected by most spells. However, disintegrate immediately destroys an item made of riverine, as does a rod of cancellation, a sphere of annihilation, or a Mordenkainen’s disjunction spell, causing the water to spill out in a sudden rush.

That seems rather unambiguous; it somewhat follows the description of how the disintegrate spell works, too:


A thin, green ray springs from your pointing finger. You must make a successful ranged touch attack to hit. Any creature struck by the ray takes 2d6 points of damage per caster level (to a maximum of 40d6). Any creature reduced to 0 or fewer hit points by this spell is entirely disintegrated, leaving behind only a trace of fine dust. A disintegrated creature’s equipment is unaffected.

When used against an object, the ray simply disintegrates as much as one 10-foot cube of nonliving matter. Thus, the spell disintegrates only part of any very large object or structure targeted. The ray affects even objects constructed entirely of force, such as forceful hand or a wall of force, but not magical effects such as a globe of invulnerability or an antimagic field.

A creature or object that makes a successful Fortitude save is partially affected, taking only 5d6 points of damage. If this damage reduces the creature or object to 0 or fewer hit points, it is entirely disintegrated.

Only the first creature or object struck can be affected; that is, the ray affects only one target per casting.

The spell seems to suggest that an object (or perhaps only an attended object?) would be entitled to a save to avoid the full effects of the spell. Is it therefore a unique effect of riverine that it would not receive a save, or is it that, as it is immune to damage normally, even partial damage is enough to destroy it?

Also, what about an intelligent item?


Intelligent items can actually be considered creatures because they have Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores. Treat them as constructs.

An intelligent item is not an object, but a creature. Does that change how we should read the interaction between disintegrate and riverine?

I asked in the RAW thread about a possible workaround I'm considering. If the weapon has the spellblade property, it may be able to circumvent the disintegrate effect; failing that, a fiend of possession becomes part of the object or creature it possesses, so if a fiend of possession wields a spellblade and possesses a riverine sword, intelligent or otherwise, that should cover it. I'm hopeful a second weapon won't be necessary, however.

inuyasha
2020-12-21, 10:51 AM
I would rule that they can be considered as creatures in certain situations, but that does not mean that they are creatures, as they lack some of the important things that creatures have, namely Hit Dice [or the ability to take class levels]. Just as there is no special note declaring intelligent items immune to shatter or rusting grasp/rust monsters, I'd say that a disintegrate spell will do the trick to make an intelligent riverine object disappear, but with a lot more emotional trauma for those witnessing.

Heck, since it's sentient, and the disintegrate is specifically for the force shell and not the water within, throw in a dramatic death scene for the item. A sputtering voice like a drowning man gasping for air, a final gut wrenching bloop as the water bubbles and splashes of its own accord for just a moment, and then a heavy silence.

And then watch as the players are a little bit devastated by the loss of the fighter's cool sword, and not just for monetary reasons. :))

Vaern
2020-12-21, 02:55 PM
I'm in agreement that the specific rule for the material trumps the text of the spell. Even partial damage on a successful saving throw means that the item is affected by the spell and is therefore instantly destroyed.

Falontani
2020-12-21, 05:06 PM
All creatures have HD.

According to the Monster Manual

Wisdom: Any creature that can perceive its environment in any fashion has at least 1 point of Wisdom.
Anything with no Wisdom score is an object, not a creature.
Anything without a Wisdom score also has no Charisma score.
Charisma: Any creature capable of telling the difference between itself and things that are not itself has at least 1 point of Charisma.
Anything with no Charisma score is an object, not a creature.
Anything without a Charisma score also has no Wisdom score.

A sentient object has a wisdom score and has a charisma score. Ergo it can be qualified as a creature. The DMG remains silent on whether a sentient item is a creature or not, however it does state that Sentient Items can take actions, another feature that creatures possess, and objects do not. The RAW is muddy and voices no clear answer one way or another, so ask your DM. If you however are the DM, I suggest that a sentient item is considered a creature, thus gains 1 Construct HD, possesses HP according to it's HD or its enchantments/material (whichever is greater) hardness as an object (seen in Psicrystals), and gains 1 feat. The feat should be relevant to the purpose that the object serves, such as Skill Focus: Spot for a sentient pair of glasses. Its saving throws will always be as an item.

So in this example a Sentient Riverine item will have HP based on it's HD, but hardness (infinite). It is impossible to damage except through disintegration, but if it suffers from a disintegration it must make a saving throw as a creature, and takes damage as a creature. If the damage is enough to drop it (more than likely, but a low CL disintegration or an extremely low roll might save it).

As it is a construct you could allow the construct to be advanced, probably the same way as a character may advance a golem, further enchanting, Craft Construct, and a lot of gold.

Rijan_Sai
2020-12-21, 06:10 PM
https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/reincarnation/images/d/da/Reincarnation---a-demon-s-day-out_img0.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20150224214040

:smalleek:
And I thought "Inuyasha" was supposed to be one of the good guys... :smallbiggrin: