"Filler": I do not think that word means what you think it means

[SPoD]

this one seemed like a filler episode.

Filler, but cute.

his felt more like "filler" than "moving".

Meh. Pretty much filler.

Huh... very... filler.

OK, a nice enough comic and all, but this does seem to be nothing but filler.

Now THAT was filler =P

The 500 sucked filler

but it was really just filler.

Why does at least one person refer to the latest OOTS strip--no matter what happens in it--as "filler"?

Anything that explains any part of the plot is not filler. Anything that sheds light on one or more character's motivations or personality is not filler. Anything that explains why something did or didn't happen off-screen is not filler. And in a comedy, anything that is funny is also not filler.

Filler is what happens when the artist can't do a strip and posts something like a sketch instead. (See also, "Megatokyo".) To my knowledge, the only OOTS strips that actually qualifies as filler are #301 (the intermision strip) and the 3 letter column strips. In fact, the connotation of filler is that it "fills in" for something that would have taken more work--but I've seen three-page strips given the label around here!

If you don't like a strip, if you find it boring or stupid or wordy--fine, those are legitimate criticisms sometimes. I'm certainly not saying the comic is 100% perfect. But calling a comic "filler" makes no sense at all. What you mean to say is, "I didn't like this strip."

Can anyone explain to me what the heck calling a comic "filler" is supposed to mean? What is it filling in???

[Emanick]

Why, filling in part of the plot, of course! :smallbiggrin:

[Porthos]

*STANDING APPLAUSE*

The last few strips have seen: Roy finally shed his desire to change his father.
We have seen what has happened to the Rag Tag Fleet.
We have seen two beloved (albeit minor) characters get married.
We got a great Thor/Loki gag.
We've seen more Elan character development.
We've seen Hinjo start to grow as a leader.
We've gotten clarification as to what Cloister does.
And we got a great eye-patch gag.

Plus we've gotten backstory on how Rich's World works (you need to be able to scry to see what's going on in the Mortal Realm) and glimpses of other cultures.

If these strips are filler, then I shudder what people expect "plot heavy" strips to be.

No we haven't seen/heard Xykon's latest plans, nor have we seen Haley and Belkar. So what? Well get them in good time. I mean, it's not like this strip isn't well known for taking it's time telling a story. Besides, each of these strips are one or two pages at a time. And if you want time to flesh out your characters, then that is going to take time for them to develop.

Don't forget the war took 45 strips to resolve itself. And that's not counting the strips leading up to the war (9 - 17 depending on how you count) nor the 18 strips after the war.

Face it, this strip takes its time to tell its story. If you find the pacing to be that disruptive either wait for the books to come out, or read it in two month chunks. :smallwink:

[Twisted Otaku]

I posted this is the new comic sticky thread but it was totally made for this one : p


I hate it when people complain that it's 'filler'. If you think about it, without filler, you have no context for the awesome moments in the comic. I mean you can't tell me that Miko dying would have been nearly as satisfying if we hadn't seen what a (female dog) she was in alot of those 'filler' comics. Same goes for the rest of the characters. The awesome moments in the comic may be what we remember but it's these 'filler' comics that give purpose to those memories

Emanick is right, it is filling in the plot. And it seems that some people look upon that negatively like it is boring or what-have-you. If you just want to see a bunch of stick characters fighting and don't care about why or who their fighitng for... http://www.stickdeath.com/ ... enjoy

[Twisted Otaku]

We've gotten clarification as to what Cloister does.


had to lol at this : p

[NikkTheTrick]

It seems to a lot of people that episodes are "fillers" (word they, as the OP said, misuse) because the Asure city battle and especially the ending have been quite "emotionally heavy" - OotS was broken, Roy and miko dead and fate of one of the nicest characters (Haley) looks extremely grim, which also makes Elan's fate look grim.

People don't realize that not all episodes can possibly like those. There are heavy ones and there are the light ones. Once again, "heavy" and "light" are in emotional sence.

When story arc is drawing to a close, the episodes get heavy. The beginning of a story arc has to be light so that readers do not het lost. Therefore, the recent episodes are exactly the way they should be. We will have a number of strips dealing with passage of 4 months.

[SPoD]

Emanick is right, it is filling in the plot. And it seems that some people look upon that negatively like it is boring or what-have-you.

Frankly, saying, "I found this comic boring," would make a lot more sense than calling it filler. "Filler" somehow implies that there is absolutely no purpose to the comic whatsoever, which seems a lot like presuming to know what is going on in Rich's head. The purpose of a particular comic might not become clear until several strips later, if not dozens of strips later.

For example, some called the revelation about Roy's brother filler, but after #500, we see Roy making a deal with Eugene for Eugene to stay away from Sara's house--effectively barring him from seeing Eric ever again. Since this promise was contingent on Roy beating Xykon, we now have another layer of motivation for Roy to come back from the dead: he needs to ensure Xykon's defeat to protect his little brother from Eugene.

So if you thought #496 was boring, OK. If you thought it was filler, it wasn't.

[Twisted Otaku]

It seems to a lot of people that episodes are "fillers" (word they, as the OP said, misuse) because the Asure city battle and especially the ending have been quite "emotionally heavy" - OotS was broken, Roy and miko dead and fate of one of the nicest characters (Haley) looks extremely grim, which also makes Elan's fate look grim.

People don't realize that not all episodes can possibly like those. There are heavy ones and there are the light ones. Once again, "heavy" and "light" are in emotional sence.

When story arc is drawing to a close, the episodes get heavy. The beginning of a story arc has to be light so that readers do not het lost. Therefore, the recent episodes are exactly the way they should be. We will have a number of strips dealing with passage of 4 months.


That's good story telling though. You can't just have drama all the time or else you'd have General Hospital or As the World Turns : p moments of lightheartednes, comedy and exposition are needed so that those dramatic periods stay dramatic whenever you reread them. Instead of every comic trying to outdo the last one in awesomeness

[Twisted Otaku]

Frankly, saying, "I found this comic boring," would make a lot more sense than calling it filler. "Filler" somehow implies that there is absolutely no purpose to the comic whatsoever, which seems a lot like presuming to know what is going on in Rich's head. The purpose of a particular comic might not become clear until several strips later, if not dozens of strips later.

For example, some called the revelation about Roy's brother filler, but after #500, we see Roy making a deal with Eugene for Eugene to stay away from Sara's house--effectively barring him from seeing Eric ever again. Since this promise was contingent on Roy beating Xykon, we now have another layer of motivation for Roy to come back from the dead: he needs to ensure Xykon's defeat to protect his little brother.

Yeah I guess that's just something people miss or don't have the attention span or attention to detail for. Sometimes the peices are kind of hard to put together, but when you get them all assembled you find that each piece servers it's own unique and, in it's own way, entertaining purpose.

[Setra]

Well put SPoD.

[Mr Teufel]

I just want to applaud this thread.

[Balathustrius]

I hadn't realized how annoying that was until I read this thread. Is there a petition or something I can sign?

[NikkTheTrick]

That's good story telling though. You can't just have drama all the time or else you'd have General Hospital or As the World Turns : p moments of lightheartednes, comedy and exposition are needed so that those dramatic periods stay dramatic whenever you reread them. Instead of every comic trying to outdo the last one in awesomeness
Which is exactly the point of my post.

Some strips are heavy (like the AC battle and its immediate aftermath). So, "light" strips (post - September 17) are needed.

The strips we are having right now are more joke-heavy and less story-heavy. We are being eased into seing what happened to Haley in those 4 months :smalleek:

[kpenguin]

I think SPoD deserves one of those classic single claps that slowly evolves into a thunderous applause.

[Porthos]

You know what I think a lot of the problem was? A lot of people were expecting Roy to be resurrected in 500, and when he wasn't, the strip was immediately classified as "filler". And since we haven't even seen any progress toward the Reunification of the OotS, then those strips are "filler" as well.

Of course, there are a ton of things going on in these strips, but since the Roy Gets Resurrected And/Or the Order of the Stick Gets Reunified Plotlines aren't moving forward (at least in their eyes), then the strips are "filler".

It's silly, but there you are. :smallamused:

[Jayabalard]

Can anyone explain to me what the heck calling a comic "filler" is supposed to mean? If I were to guess, I would say that they mean that most of these strips are filler. Filler is content that exist solely to take up space, without adding much, if anything, that is meaningful to the story. Taking 10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline means that you've added 8 strips worth of filler.

Quite a bit of the end of the last arc and the beginning of the current one is filler.


The purpose of a particular comic might not become clear until several strips later, if not dozens of strips later.That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

[Balathustrius]

Quite a bit of the end of the last arc and the beginning of the current one is filler.

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

Shun the nonbeliever! Shunnnnnnnn!

[monty]

If I were to guess, I would say that they mean that most of these strips are filler. Filler is content that exist solely to take up space, without adding much, if anything, that is meaningful to the story. Taking 10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline means that you've added 8 strips worth of filler.

Quite a bit of the end of the last arc and the beginning of the current one is filler.

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

Your definition of "filler" might be true for, say, The Great Gatsby (gods, I hated that book), but simply extending the plot for dramatic effect or, in the case of a comic, more jokes, is good storytelling. If everything resolved in a few strips, Rich would probably start running out of ideas.

[Twisted Otaku]

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

So what then you you say about Eugenes message to Roy in the first dungeon?

[Kreistor]

Character development (what Roy has been going through) and the explanation of people's activites after a time skip are not filler.

[Jawajoey]

Amen, SPoD. I don't usually read the specific discussion threads, so I didn't realize people were calling strips filler.

I guess they don't realize that "filler," in the webcomic world, already has a meaning that is explicitly distinct from anything we've seen in OOTS. It's impossible to have an actual full comic strip that is "filler."

If someone wants to complain about the story not advancing enough, then two things: One, use a different word, because filler is the wrong one. Two, you're wrong and stupid. It doesn't make sense to criticize a full comic as filler just because it wasn't as relevant as a story heavy strip. The last scene of the new King Kong was way overextended and boring as hell, but calling it "filler"... is just plain inaccurate. And nothing in OOTS even compares to that.

[Twisted Otaku]

Character development (what Roy has been going through) and the explanation of people's activites after a time skip are not filler.

exactly, it's like telling the story just out of order or something : p

[Porthos]

What I don't get is the fact that this strip has had "filler" in it since Day 1 (or at least Strip 13 when the main plot was introduced).

I mean, is it really a case that people are just figuring out that Rich likes to take time telling his story? :smalltongue: After all, look how long the Bandit Quest took. And if that's not enough, Xykon's Army was introduced waaaaaaaaaaay back in Comic 197. And it didn't do anything except mobilize and move around until Comic 423. That's over 225 strips, people.

So why people are seriously complaing about "filler" now, when this entire strip is based around it, really baffles me. :smallconfused:

[Twisted Otaku]

What I don't get is the fact that this strip has had "filler" in it since Day 1 (or at least Strip 13 when the main plot was introduced).

I mean, is it really a case that people are just figuring out that Rich likes to take time telling his story? :smalltongue: After all, look how long the Bandit Quest took. And if that's not enough, Xykon's Army was introduced waaaaaaaaaaay back in Comic 197. And it didn't do anything except mobilize and move around until Comic 423. That's over 225 strips, people.

So why people are seriously complaing about "filler" now, when this entire strip is based around it, really baffles me. :smallconfused:


I know right? This 'filler' is the actual 'meat' of the story. Maybe people are in a rush to see Roy back in action already but seriously? That would just quell all the emotion we've spent on his death. I say let Rich have his fun because the strips he puts out between now and Roys eventual (hopefully :smalleek: ) ressurection are going to be awesome... I can almost smell it

[Felixaar]

I think some people referr to strips of late as filler because they haven;t been as completely fast paced as we all expected from the way the third story arc ended. They arent really filler, they're just a slower paced catch up than we expected.

[Spiky]

Are you guys just noticing the general (low) level of thinking ability here?

[Caractacus]

Thank the gods for this thread - I've been getting to the point where I actually lecture my monitor in sheer grumpiness when people say 'Filler' for no reason (other than misunderstanding what filler is). Or perhaps to demonstrate that they are independent thinkers who don't have to like every strip...

There were some egregious examples recently where we found out major things about Roy and his family, and yet we were told that it was filler simply because we were not seeing what was happening with Haley and co., Elan and co., or even Xykon and co. :smallsigh:

This is particulary aggravating when it seems highly probable that even the smaller points that being introduced (let alone the larger ones) will likely either have a role to play in the future or serve immediately in some form: e.g. Roy's having a fine time with the great members of his family in his LG paradise show us what it really takes to put it all aside and try to get back down to the Prime Material and all its suffering...

A great thread, SPoD. Thank you for saving me the trouble, and thank you for doing it better than I would have done. :smallcool:

[Twisted Otaku]

Are you guys just noticing the general (low) level of thinking ability here?

Confused... do you mean this thread or most people that post on the forums? ^_^;;;

[Jayabalard]

If everything resolved in a few strips, Rich would probably start running out of ideas.While resoliving things slowly and filling up the comic with strips that don't advance the story means that he doesn't have enough ideas, which is why people are referring to recent strips as filler...


Character development (what Roy has been going through) and the explanation of people's activites after a time skip are not filler.If they aren't advancing whatever someone considers "the main storyline" then they are indeed correct in labeling it as "filler".

[Twisted Otaku]

While resoliving things slowly and filling up the comic with strips that don't advance the story means that he doesn't have enough ideas, which is why people are referring to recent strips as filler...

If they aren't advancing whatever someone considers "the main storyline" then they are indeed correct in labeling it as "filler".

I think you're thinking of these 'filler' strips too much in the vein of Main quest's relationship to Side Quest. How does it not advance the story line (the most recent comic that is) when it answers so many questions? And no, I'm not talking about the damn eyepatch! : p

[SPoD]

Filler is content that exist solely to take up space, without adding much, if anything, that is meaningful to the story.

Who defines what is meaningful to the story? And how can anything be said to "take up space" on the web, where page count is unlimited?


Taking 10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline means that you've added 8 strips worth of filler.

Again, who determines what constitutes 2 strips of storyline, though? The author obviously felt it needed 10. Since there is no objective unit of plot measurement, how is your assessment somehow more accurate than his?


Quite a bit of the end of the last arc and the beginning of the current one is filler.

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

Yes, but the context of the current strips was ALSO called filler. #500 followed 4 strips after #496, and both were called filler. So if the definition of filler is, "is not meaningful to the current context", how can you call an entire arc filler?? Isn't the arc, by definition, meaningful to itself?

All of the strips in Roy's heaven arc influenced #500, so in retrospect, none of them were filler by your definitition.

[SPoD]

If they aren't advancing whatever someone considers "the main storyline" then they are indeed correct in labeling it as "filler".

Ah, so, stories are not allowed to have subplots anymore. Got it.

[Jimorian]

All I can add is my personal experience with the fantasy novel I'm working on. For the longest time while working on the first draft, I had a string of important battles as my main bits of outline, and I worked toward each one with great anticipation. "Now I have to get my characters from here to there so I can get to the action, cool!"

But as I "filled" in these middle bits, I very slowly started to realize that I was having more fun and getting better scenes out of the "small moments" than I was out of the kick-ass fight scenes. When I finally did get to the battles, it was much harder to motivate myself to come up with the details, because I *now* wanted to get back to the journey between them. One of the most important scenes in my book now is a time when my protagonist takes time out from the war to play with some toy animals (sound familiar?).

Later, when I started editing a fantasy fiction webzine, I would read a LOT of stories with massively cool concepts and big ideas, but as I discovered over the course of reading hundreds of manuscripts, what drew me was the stories that captured the hearts and souls of the characters -- sometimes that was in one of these kick-ass scenerios, sometimes it was in very simple stories about simple ideas.

Rich Burlew knows *exactly* what he's doing as a storyteller, as an artist, and as a humorist. There's as little waste in effort in what he's doing now as I've seen in ANY media. And while individual episodes may vary in the response the garner from me or anybody else (they simply can't all be "the greatest ever!"), there is no point in calling any of it filler for reasons previously stated quite elegantly by other posters.

If OOTS in itself isn't proof enough, the detail and care in his gaming articles are something I highly recommend reading, particularly for anybody who wishes to advance their own storytelling skills.

[Porthos]

While resolving things slowly and filling up the comic with strips that don't advance the story means that he doesn't have enough ideas, which is why people are referring to recent strips as filler...

If they aren't advancing whatever someone considers "the main storyline" then they are indeed correct in labeling it as "filler".

Not if you consider character development to be a desirable thing in and of itself. :smallsmile:

Let's compare this strip to Lost for a moment. There is a lot of wailing and gnashing of teeth in Lost fandom over episodes that don't advance "the main plot". But, IMO, that fails to grasp the point that the whole point about Lost IS the study and examination of the characters on the show. People wouldn't care nearly the same about the show if it was all about smoke monsters, strange EMPs, and mysterious hatches. While the uberstoryline is important, it wouldn't be nearly as compelling if it weren't for the characters.

And the way that you get people to care for characters is to develop them.

Consider this: What is more important on a journey? Getting somewhere or the journey itself? For some people its the actual destination. But for other people, like say myself, it's the journey that is important. That is all of the little things that make me care about these characters and make me log in to the forum 20 times a day, not only to see if the comic is updated, but to discuss the actual comic.

So I can honestly say that I wouldn't care if it takes 5, 25, or 225 strips for a plotline to resolve itself as long as I am enjoying the trip. And I will enjoy the strip as long as there is humor, character development (regardless on its impact on the strip over all), the opportunity to meet cool characters and situations (even if for only for a few strips), and the chance to get dramatic happenings. These, obviously, don't have to be all in the same strip, or even the same arc. In other words if the comic either brings the funny, the character, or the drama, then I can't possibly see it as filler.

Heck, even the closest thing this strip has ever had to filler (the mail call strips) has been outrageously funny.

[Kreistor]

If they aren't advancing whatever someone considers "the main storyline" then they are indeed correct in labeling it as "filler".

First, describing the activities of the characters during a time jump is in fact main storyline. By describing them in synopsis format, they take fewer strips and are therefore the opposite of filler: compressing lots of important information into as small a package as possible instead of adding useless bits to make the strip longer.

Second, character development is often the entire point of a work of literature. This story may be more plot driven, but character development has taken a central stage. Haley's speech problems, Belkar's MoJ, Elan's imprisonment and escape -- all of these involve character development. These characters change, and always have changed. If character development is secondary to plot in OotS, it's not secondary by very much.

So, Roy's discovery's about himself are relevant to his development, which makes them not filler. And the exposition of what Elan, Durkon, and V have been up to are storyline. So neither are filler.

Just so that you know exactly what filler is: this is filler.

33 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

The last twenty strips have not been filler.

[Twisted Otaku]

But as I "filled" in these middle bits, I very slowly started to realize that I was having more fun and getting better scenes out of the "small moments" than I was out of the kick-ass fight scenes. When I finally did get to the battles, it was much harder to motivate myself to come up with the details, because I *now* wanted to get back to the journey between them. One of the most important scenes in my book now is a time when my protagonist takes time out from the war to play with some toy animals (sound familiar?).



"Life is a journey, not a destination" -Skeletor of Eternia

It's true, while the 'climaxes' of any story hold huge important to the story itself, everything inbetween gives us reasons to care about getting there in the first place : p

P.S. Good luck on your novel!

[Shatteredtower]

The purpose of a particular comic might not become clear until several strips later, if not dozens of strips later.Good grief. It's a "Midnight on the Firing Line" set-up! Well played, Mr. Burlew.

[Twisted Otaku]

Just so that you know exactly what filler is: this is filler.

33 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)

The last twenty strips have not been filler.

Heh, Haley called it! Wow, that's just awesome : p

[Eogan]

Filler - noun

1. part of a story that serves no purpose in advancing the plot through creating resolution or tension, character development, fore-shadowing, or any other noticable means.

2. slang: any part of a story that doesn't immediately and sufficiently slake the reader's desire to have all the plot points currently of interest to the reader resolved, ie. any part of the story in which the author does not appear to be slavishly devoted to sating the reader's curiousity. (SEE ALSO whining.)

[David Argall]

The last few strips have seen:
Roy finally shed his desire to change his father.
As near as I can tell, this strip was the first time he had tried in at least 10 years. Up to now, Roy seems to have been quite content to have a [preferably very] long distance relationship with his dad, not to reform him.


We've seen more Elan character development.
Elan is still very much Elan, and this so-called character development is simply his current insanity.


We've seen Hinjo start to grow as a leader.
No. Refusing to rescue Haley was a decision made back in 483. He has merely stuck to it.


If these strips are filler, then I shudder what people expect "plot heavy" strips to be.
Actually, let's look at 502. When you come down to it, it looks like the writer had the final gag in mind from the start and largely just filled up the space to get to it. Some of the material may seem like exposition, but it will likely have to be done again,and can be done better, later. To some extent, the material works to give us a Hinjo that is getting more and more annoyed until he snaps, but it still means a lot of space of little value no matter how we define value.

Or 500. It's 3 1/3 pages and reads like 4 or more. Contrast with 200 which is 4 pages that read like 3 or less.

Gramps is almost entirely removable, and can certainly be reduced without loss.


If you find the pacing to be that disruptive either wait for the books to come out,
It will be worse when the book comes out. On a strip basis, there is almost always some aspect to to make the reading great, but in the book form, the filler pages will be more obvious.

[The Extinguisher]

Quick question. How many of you people who are complaining about the so-called 'filler' would claim yourselves to be fans of the saga fantasy genre of novels?

I rest my case.

Not really though. We have no idea on the intentions of the writer. For all we know, Roy's arguement with his father (in which he finally decides that he just doesn't need to put up with his crap) might be the most important thing in the last 500 strips. It seemed fairly important to me.

Also, character development ≠ "look at how dynamic the characters are!!!"

[kriebly]

Are you guys just noticing the general (low) level of thinking ability here?
I probably would have, but I feel really full right now.

[Baidas Kebante]

It will be worse when the book comes out. On a strip basis, there is almost always some aspect to to make the reading great, but in the book form, the filler pages will be more obvious.

Structurally, it's been several pages since we've last seen these characters. Story-wise, it's been even longer and there are many possible changes that could have occurred in the several months that have passed. Regardless of how much or little they have each changed, it is important from a narrative context to establish exactly who and where they are before you move on with the story. It's not filler - it's a necessary step to allow readers a sense of where they are.

Part of this is the narration that Hinjo gave to catch readers up. But another important aspect is to establish each character's personality and motive in the story. Even if it's to either state the obvious or restate/remind what has already been established before, it needs to be done. And because it needs to be done, it can't be filler by definition.

What you are suggesting is simply reducing a fully fleshed out story into specific plot points - the kind of storytelling technique you'd expect at a dinner table in order to explain a book you've been reading to a friend. In other words, enough to keep your friend interested but not nearly enough to really explain what makes the story interesting to you.

[Mr Wizard]

I attribute the use of the word "filler" by the anime community. I dont mean that in a criticizing way, when I have seen it used to describe an anime episode, it is usually correct. However, I notice that some even in my own local "anime enthusiast" club, where they start over using the word filler. This phenomena is caused by the differences in American television programming and Japanese television. In the case of Japanese television, each eisode is much like a comic of OotS, where each show is not so much self contained but interconnected. Since the show is telling a story through the course of a season, and when that story is complete, they create another story in the same universe or let the franchise sit, complete.

American sitcoms are different, they are designed to run as long as the show is profitable, therefore every adventure is compressed into one episode. When a Japanese Anime is translated and imported (or even entirely made here, from graphic novels), an American Television company wants to keep that show on the air for as long as it's profitable to do so. So, they could take original footage and do some editing to extend a fight scene, or draw an entirely new episode that was nonexistant in the original.Very Enthusiastic Anime fans have appropriately dubbed these episodes "filler".

Now, that isnt to say that all anime filler is fightscenes without lines. Quite the opposite, sometimes filler rehashes plotpoints, maybe a minor foreshadow, that was already pretty obvious. Anime fans see that in their favorite shows, where they werent in the original works, they get angry. The problem is they start seeing everything as filler, especially if there is no true source material.

This isnt to say that Anime fans are the only source, the same thing could apply to graphic novels fans, where some filler is used to pad the thin storylines. Video games are another example, where convoluted storylines are too often an excuse to increase the playtime of the game. However, it is a good example of how the corruption and abuse of the word has developed.

Since I have written enough I'll just get to the point. With all the information above about how filler is used in these cases, an obvious problem arises when applied to OotS, without even having to consider the content of the stories.

Its a free comic, and therefore extending the number of comics really serves no purpose. There arent even advertisements that might require click-through quota's and the like. The size of the book doesnt really matter, Its Rich's story and he's telling it at the pace he wants to, with no one but rabid fans telling him he should make it faster.

Considering the content, the number of subplots in the story, a story that probably isnt planned that far ahead in advance. I dont mean that as a criticism, very few people could write that well of story basically by the seat of their pants and make anything of quality. All of these are supported without advertising, based on the merits of the story, and its ability to make buying the book and accompanying merchandise desirable. The story is its own advertising campaign, and it would not be possible unless the story was very good. Which it is.

[pjackson]

Gramps is almost entirely removable, and can certainly be reduced without loss.


Rubbish.

The scenes with Roy and his grandfather explain a lot about Roy and Eugene's characters and their relationship.
Since Roy is the main character of the story loosing gramps would be a great loss.

[Ceaon]

Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html)

Any strip other than those is not filler. They may contain little story or character development or no action, or may even be written around a single joke, but they are not filler.

[maxon]

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

Bollocks .... yup, bollocks.

You have clearly never written a (readable) story.

@ Jimor - sounds like you are genuinely developing as a writer. Good for you.
@ Eogan :smallbiggrin:

[Jayabalard]

Who defines what is meaningful to the story? And how can anything be said to "take up space" on the web, where page count is unlimited?The individual reading it.


Again, who determines what constitutes 2 strips of storyline, though? The author obviously felt it needed 10. Since there is no objective unit of plot measurement, how is your assessment somehow more accurate than his?The individual reading it; Neither person is more accurate than the other.


Yes, but the context of the current strips was ALSO called filler. #500 followed 4 strips after #496, and both were called filler. So if the definition of filler is, "is not meaningful to the current context", how can you call an entire arc filler?? Isn't the arc, by definition, meaningful to itself? Yes, you can have a complete filler arc (it's not uncommon in certain types of anime), which is pretty likely why some people have been calling the current comic "filler" ... because to them, the entire arc is coming across as a filler arc.


All of the strips in Roy's heaven arc influenced #500, so in retrospect, none of them were filler by your definitition.irrelevant, since the entire heaven arc is being called filler.


Bollocks .... yup, bollocks.

You have clearly never written a (readable) story.I don't see what relevance this is supposed to have...Whether I'vce written a readable story before, or not has nothing to do with whether I can identify what people are calling filler in a webcomic.

[Lord Zentei]

If I were to guess, I would say that they mean that most of these strips are filler. Filler is content that exist solely to take up space, without adding much, if anything, that is meaningful to the story. Taking 10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline means that you've added 8 strips worth of filler.

Quite a bit of the end of the last arc and the beginning of the current one is filler.

That sounds like filler to me; it's not meaningful in the current context of the story, and won't be for dozens of strips (if at all) ... yup, filler.

That is not what "filler" means. If there is character development and events that advance the plot, it is not "filler". Filler is extra stuff that is not part of the main storyline, it is a placeholder while the artist slacks off so he won't have to leave the fans hanging with no update at all.

And "10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline" -- how do you figure that? :smallconfused:



I think SPoD deserves one of those classic single claps that slowly evolves into a thunderous applause.

Amen to that.

[Jayabalard]

Ah, so, stories are not allowed to have subplots anymore. Got it.I don't recall making a disparaging remark about filler in and of itself...

The problem is when you have too much filler, which is really what people seem to be complaining about.


That is not what "filler" means. If there is character development and events that advance the plot, it is not "filler". Filler is extra stuff that is not part of the main storyline, it is a placeholder while the artist slacks off so he won't have to leave the fans hanging with no update at all.Yes, that's what filler means. It's possible to have some character development and events that advance the plot in a strip that is mostly filler. A strip that is mostly filler is going to be called filler by people, because that's what it is.


And "10 strips to go through 2 strips worth of storyline" -- how do you figure that? :smallconfused:I don't understand the question... it seems self explanatory. That example would be: you have 2 strips worth of storyline, and use it to take up 10 strips instead of 2. That gives you 8 strips worth of filler, even though every comic advanced the plot in some way or had some sort of character development.

[Lord Zentei]

The individual reading it.

That is nonetheless not what filler means. That's a pacing issue, which is another matter entirely.


The individual reading it; Neither person is more accurate than the other.

Well, going by that, you're full of it. :smallwink:


Yes, you can have a complete filler arc (it's not uncommon in certain types of anime), which is pretty likely why some people have been calling the current comic "filler" ... because to them, the entire arc is coming across as a filler arc.

That is because they don't know how to use the term.


irrelevant, since the entire heaven arc is being called filler.

Meaningless: the heaven arc has already affected what follows through keeping Eugene away from Eric, and establishing the fact that the OOTS have been split and without Roy for months -- moreover that they are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

[Jayabalard]

That is nonetheless not what filler means. That's a pacing issue, which is another matter entirely.Yup, that's what filler means. Pacing is highly relevant to whether something is filler; when you use a slow enough pacing, the content becomes mostly filler (which is probably the cause of the current strips being called filler).


Well, going by that, you're full of it. :smallwink: In what way?


That is because they don't know how to use the term less specifically than I do.Fixed that for you.


Meaningless: the heaven arc has already affected what follows through keeping Eugene away from Eric1, and establishing the fact that the OOTS have been split and without Roy for months2 -- moreover that they are likely to remain so for the foreseeable future.

May or may not be meaningful long term; I'm sure that some would say that if that entire plot element was left out, nothing would be lost, which makes it meaningless to them even if the strip lasts long enough to revisit that point.
I'm pretty sure that some people feel that this could have been established without creating an entire story arc for it, which is what makes much of the current comic filler.



Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0121.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0259.html)
Filler. (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0301.html)

Any strip other than those is not filler. They may contain little story or character development or no action, or may even be written around a single joke, but they are not filler.It's all about the ratio between content and filler; a strip that is mostly filler is a filler strip. There are people who, quite obviously, feel that the majority of the recent comics fit this description.

[Lord Zentei]

Yes, that's what filler means. It's possible to have some character development and events that advance the plot in a strip that is mostly filler. A strip that is mostly filler is going to be called filler by people, because that's what it is.

<APPEND>

Yup, that's what filler means. Pacing is highly relevant to whether something is filler; when you use a slow enough pacing, the content becomes mostly filler (which is probably the cause of the current strips being called filler).

Incorrect. A "filler" is something that is not a proper part of the story. See the book On the Origin of PCs: the "filler" strips are in the back, as a bonus, not in the storyline part of the book proper. Filler and pacing are NOT the same thing by any measure.


In what way?

If no one is more accurate than the other, then it is perfectly legitimate for us to claim that you are wrong.


Fixed that for you.

No: you distorted it. See point #1. This is simply a matter of correct use of language.


It's all about the ratio between content and filler; a strip that is mostly filler is a filler strip. There are people who, quite obviously, feel that the majority of the recent comics fit this description.

A strip that is "mostly filler"? :smallsigh:

A strip is either filler or not filler.

[yoshi927]

Christ, guys. If it doesn't advance the plot in any way, it's a filler, because it's there to fill space. In that way, alot of them aren't, and some of them are.

[Twisted Otaku]

irrelevant, since the entire heaven arc is being called filler.


Which is kinda stupid, and would be bad story telling if we didn't see where Roy has gone and what he was doing. People would be up in arms if Rich had just left Roy with his dad up in the clouds.



I don't see what relevance this is supposed to have...Whether I'vce written a readable story before, or not has nothing to do with whether I can identify what people are calling filler in a webcomic.

Hmm, I get the feeling you're playing the Devil's advocate here : p

[Lord Zentei]

Christ, guys. If it doesn't advance the plot in any way, it's a filler, because it's there to fill space. In that way, alot of them aren't, and some of them are.

It seems there are more than Jayabalard who don't know what the term means. Well, whatever.

And you seemingly missed the part where the fact that the heaven strips do in fact advance the plot, albeit at a slower pace than the battle strips, was explained. In fact, as far as character development was concerned, these strips are arguably more important to Roy than much of the battle was (i.e. up to the point where he was killed), so even with this bizarre definition, it's still not "filler".

[Twisted Otaku]

Christ, guys. If it doesn't advance the plot in any way, it's a filler, because it's there to fill space. In that way, alot of them aren't, and some of them are.

But this comic does -_-;;; Sure maybe some of the Banjo comics were not neccesary at all, but they entertained. And if something doesn't make you laugh or feel sad, but still delivers information about what the heck has been happening for 4 months! then it really shouldn't be called filler. I realize that trying to right this is an effort in futility but I guess some of us have just had enough. Go back and reread OoTS and you realize how many comics fit the current definition for filler. Then realize how much you love those strips for what they are. Finally, stop using to word filler for every comic that comes up that you can't bust a nut over.

[Rethorn]

The best way to enjoy OOTS, I've found, is to avoid the forums entirely. I've been reading this comic for a looong time, and more and more these days, when I visit the forums (I generally try to avoid them) there always seems to be a large group of people who have registered in the past 6 months telling everyone else what is a good comic and what isn't, and generally thumbing their noses at the comic.

I'm not mentioning these things as a way of saying "I've been here longer, so I know more about the comic than you." Simply mentioning that the phenomena I've seen, because it seems to have happened only recently. What precisely is causing these attitudes among Rich's fan base as of late? It seems as if they're almost saying the comic is never good enough unless its a climax, but logic alone should tell you that if you just have climaxes back to back, you're building a plateau in terms of the story.

Case in point, the comics since 500. Filler? Roy finally stood up to his dad. Thats a major plot point, and I can see that DEFINITELY coming up again in the form of an emotional moment with Eugene where he decides not to be such a ****. We know what happened with Kazumi and Diago, and we know that not only are they married but they're also the new Azure City nobility. This, again, has huge potential down the line. Not to mention that 501-502 was a neat summary of what happened in the past 4 months while we've been following Roy.

If its not a dramatic plot moment, people cry filler. If its not a hilarious strip, people cry that the comic is "losing its roots" or some nonsense and focuses too much on plot.

Edit:

Here is an example of what I mean. Back when I first posted here, people would debate over what they would do with the belt of masculinity/femininity. They wouldn't scream about how it was a "ZOMG FILLER STRIP!!!!" Thats the trend I'm talking about, and its incredibly obnoxious. It actually makes me miss the days of the endless pointless arguments, like V's gender or Belkar's alignment.

[WuanAnselm]

I use filler when It means "Random" like 497.

[yoshi927]

But this comic does -_-;;; Sure maybe some of the Banjo comics were not neccesary at all, but they entertained. And if something doesn't make you laugh or feel sad, but still delivers information about what the heck has been happening for 4 months! then it really shouldn't be called filler. I realize that trying to right this is an effort in futility but I guess some of us have just had enough. Go back and reread OoTS and you realize how many comics fit the current definition for filler. Then realize how much you love those strips for what they are. Finally, stop using to word filler for every comic that comes up that you can't bust a nut over.

It's a fairly simple concept. If it "fills" it is a "filler". :smallannoyed: I probably should've stayed away from this board, because no real arguments happen here. There you go already with the thinly veiled insult. Bah.

[Twisted Otaku]

If its not a dramatic plot moment, people cry filler. If its not a hilarious strip, people cry that the comic is "losing its roots" or some nonsense and focuses too much on plot.




So in short, not everybody is going to be enjoying the newest strip universally. That's easy enough to swallow, hell it's expected. I agree with everything you said though. Honestly I've made more posts in the last 10 hours than ever on this board before. I like to think most were insightful. And the fact that I'm no longer a pixie makes me happy.

[Twisted Otaku]

It's a fairly simple concept. If it "fills" it is a "filler". :smallannoyed: I probably should've stayed away from this board, because no real arguments happen here. There you go already with the thinly veiled insult. Bah.

The problem isn't just that people are calling it filler, because honestly, I know that that's what exists between climaxes, which we just got through with. The problem is that people use the word in a whiney and dissatisfied way that seems to insinuate that Rich isn't meeting par. That happens to be something that I disagree with entirely.

[Rethorn]

So in short, not everybody is going to be enjoying the newest strip universally. That's easy enough to swallow, hell it's expected. I agree with everything you said though. Honestly I've made more posts in the last 10 hours than ever on this board before. I like to think most were insightful. And the fact that I'm no longer a pixie makes me happy.

No no, it goes beyond that. If they were just saying "I prefer strips with more story" or "I prefer strips with more humor" it would be fine, because its at least respectful. As of late, though, it seems to be some incredibly obnoxious passive aggressive comment.

[Twisted Otaku]

No no, it goes beyond that. If they were just saying "I prefer strips with more story" or "I prefer strips with more humor" it would be fine, because its at least respectful. As of late, though, it seems to be some incredibly obnoxious passive aggressive comment.

I know what you mean. I hope it dies down though. I think people are riding the high from the climax of the arc, which is perfectly reasonable because it was an amazing ending! I just wish they'd have some perspective and realize that beggings can't be as chaotic as climaxes tend to be.

[monty]

While resoliving things slowly and filling up the comic with strips that don't advance the story means that he doesn't have enough ideas, which is why people are referring to recent strips as filler...

What I meant was that adding a major plot point every comic or whatever people are expecting would burn through the overall plot fairly rapidly and get to whatever end Rich has planned much sooner.

[Kdansky]

I liked this comic. Still, I understand why people call it a filler (and it seems you don't):

Nothing happens.

Not in the sense of "nothing important", but in the sense of "nothing that we did not know anyway". It's a (good) eyepatch joke with a dozen pictures before which do NOT tell anything. We knew that Haley wasn't contacted (and telling that the characters don't know why they failed doesn't tell the reader anything at all), we knew that Elan would miss her, it was obvious that he would ask Hinjo to return etc etc. There's not a single line there which I could not have written myself. That's the reason people call it a filler, because they also feel that they could have written this comic themselves. That really rarely happens in OOTS, even in former "filler" comics something happens where characters have a choice and Rich makes that choice for the characters. Here there are no choices, due to the characters view of the world. And there is no mentioning of what will happen now. It's completely finished in itself.
Image this strip missing. Nothing changes, the reader can skip it without even a second thought. That really rarely happens in OOTS as far as I remember. How the "Roy has a baby brother"-Strips can be called filler is rather ridiculous though, I was baffled.

So, there you have an explanation ;)

[Lord Zentei]

I liked this comic. Still, I understand why people call it a filler (and it seems you don't):

Nothing happens.

Not in the sense of "nothing important", but in the sense of "nothing that we did not know anyway".

Not really, since we didn't know how the situation had changed in the last 3 months. This is exposition. Exposition is not filler. :smallwink:

[Twisted Otaku]

How the "Roy has a baby brother"-Strips can be called filler is rather ridiculous though, I was baffled.

Yeah, I think alot of us are just tired of seeing the cursed word in almost every discussion thread since the finale. Granted, I know a lot doesn't happen in this comic (the background does not change once!) But it is still important in moving the plot forward. I think we get a better feel for Hinjo; sympatbetic to Elan but responsible about his position, and we see Elan's dynamic of filling in Roy's shoes (boots?) while he's 'gone', which, to me at least, was very touching.

[Rethorn]

I liked this comic. Still, I understand why people call it a filler (and it seems you don't):

Nothing happens.

Not in the sense of "nothing important", but in the sense of "nothing that we did not know anyway". It's a (good) eyepatch joke with a dozen pictures before which do NOT tell anything. We knew that Haley wasn't contacted (and telling that the characters don't know why they failed doesn't tell the reader anything at all), we knew that Elan would miss her, it was obvious that he would ask Hinjo to return etc etc. There's not a single line there which I could not have written myself. That's the reason people call it a filler, because they also feel that they could have written this comic themselves. That really rarely happens in OOTS, even in former "filler" comics something happens where characters have a choice and Rich makes that choice for the characters. Here there are no choices, due to the characters view of the world. And there is no mentioning of what will happen now. It's completely finished in itself.
Image this strip missing. Nothing changes, the reader can skip it without even a second thought. That really rarely happens in OOTS as far as I remember. How the "Roy has a baby brother"-Strips can be called filler is rather ridiculous though, I was baffled.

So, there you have an explanation ;)

How do you know it tells nothing? The Gender Bender Belt told nothing immediately, yet people knew it would be an important plot point because they had faith in Rich as a writer. Down the line it provided to be a fairly important plot point. Yet every week, almost like a morning cartoon, people expect the protagonist (Rich) to make a mistake and not link the plot events to other comics down the road. And then time and time again, he proves them wrong, but they never change.

I can almost see some of the people who complain sitting there, saying some cliche villain line :P "Curse you, Rich Burlew! You and your precious comic have not seen the last of me!" Then next week they return, and start it again. "Aha! THIS one is filler! My plan will not be foiled this time!"

In the end, though. the people who cry filler come off as (at least, to me) lacking creativity, and obnoxious. Lacking creativity, because they can't think of any way for the strip to be relevant to the storyline, and obnoxious because they so loudly decry it as filler due to their lack of creativity.

[Baidas Kebante]

There are only two definitions of "filler" that matter for this story. The first is the comic book definition, because this story is intended to become one. The second is an online comic because that's the format that is being presented right now. Both definitions come from the creator's and the editor's perspective because both are editorial choices. The reader can scream "filler" all day long but the opinion doesn't matter.

1) For comic books, there is never a set creation team for one single book. Often, one team of writer and artist would have a 2-year contract and then move on to another comic book. In between the change-over there would often be one or two issues that couldn't be covered by either the old or new team because contracts dictated when each team would start and end. To fill in the gaps between contracts, lesser known creative teams would write short, one-issue stories as "filler" in order to keep the book going while the new team was settling in. But this definition doesn't fit because we only have one creative team on this story here.

The negative connotation of "filler" for comic books started when it was decided some time ago that more money could be made by selling trade paperback novels than individual comic books themselves. Thus, it was an editorial decision to mandate all comic story arcs had to be six issues long to make it easier to convert to a trade paperback. All trades would be the same length and without a need to cut or edit, it would be simple to just pack the six issues together into one single book.

This caused a problem when writers had to change to this storytelling structure because they were accustomed to having freedom to write as much as the story itself needed. If an arc was short and simple, it would only last 3 - 4 issues. A longer arc would take 6 - 8 issues to finish and major story arcs would last 12 issues long. Being set at 6 issues meant that narratives for long story arcs needed to be cut short while shorter arcs needed extra story bits to extend the arc and fit the mandate.

These extra bits were "filler" issues needed to help pad the stories and fit the 6-issue limit. Because they were completely unnecessary and often took away from a tight, well plotted-story they were very unpopular (and while rarer today, they still pop up from time to time and hated by all comic fans alike). But this definition of filler also doesn't fit, because there is no set mandate for this story and Rich sets his own pacing. He also doesn't need to worry about six "issues" for one trade because he self-publishes and decides himself how long and short each trade will be.

2) There are several stories online that do not fall under the "joke-a-day" structure most are familiar with. For these online comics, the creator is sometimes unable to maintain a regular updating schedule for personal reasons. Some creators then choose to ask others to step in to write guest comics or add a simple poster-styled art piece to keep readers from feeling the lag of update and still have something to see. Because these extra comics are not part of the main storyline, they are referred to as filler. But again, this doesn't fit the current situation because there hasn't been any appearances of such recently.

Since none of these real definitions of filler don't apply to this situation at all, calling them filler would be incorrect. And again, it's not for readers to decide what is filler and what isn't - having "filler" is an editorial decision to fit policies and schedules that the creators are unwilling to break.

[Kdansky]

How I know that there is nothing that could get important?
All things in the comic fall into these categories:

A: We know it already (like Elan and Haley are in love)
B: Concluded in that strip (eyepatch)
C: Not explained, but obvious (they cannot contact haley)

Nothing in D: Stuff that is a mystery.

There's no item, no unexplicable action, no nothing.

The gender belt could have been just a joke, I was rather surprised when it turned up again. Do you exspect the eyepatch to turn up again? That's a conclusion of a mystery from before, and not a very interesting one, it just saves the comic from being pointless.

I await the next one eagerly :D

[Freelance Henchman]

Or, those people might just be trolling. I wouldn't discount that entirely, for some of them at least.

[Lord Zentei]

How I know that there is nothing that could get important?
All things in the comic fall into these categories:

A: We know it already (like Elan and Haley are in love)
B: Concluded in that strip (eyepatch)
C: Not explained, but obvious (they cannot contact haley)

Nothing in D: Stuff that is a mystery.

There's no item, no unexplicable action, no nothing.

The gender belt could have been just a joke, I was rather surprised when it turned up again. Do you exspect the eyepatch to turn up again? That's a conclusion of a mystery from before, and not a very interesting one, it just saves the comic from being pointless.

I await the next one eagerly :D

Again: 3 months had passed. Expoistion was required to see what had happened. Recounting the fact that they cannot contact Haley is important and not at all obvious. And regardless, this is part of the main story, therefore not "filler" like the Intermission strip was.

[Baidas Kebante]

How I know that there is nothing that could get important?
All things in the comic fall into these categories:

A: We know it already (like Elan and Haley are in love)
B: Concluded in that strip (eyepatch)
C: Not explained, but obvious (they cannot contact haley)

Nothing in D: Stuff that is a mystery.

A, B and C are all important. As I mentioned before in one of my previous posts in this thread, good narrative technique requires that Rich establish where we are in the story, especially if it restates things we already know or found obvious. Story-wise and structurally, these characters have been missing for some time. Having a few pages to explain exactly how these characters have and have not changed is already less than some other famous (and considered structurally sound by literary theorists) narratives.

In fact, not establishing these so-called "fillers" would be a sign of Rich not being an effective storyteller.


Edit: Hmmm... Lord Zentei said what I was saying, but more efficiently and sooner. I guess that makes my post filler. :smallwink:

[Twisted Otaku]

Edit: Hmmm... Lord Zentei said what I was saying, but more efficiently and sooner. I guess that makes my post filler. :smallwink:

Zing! : p Well at least like the Giant you delivered it in a timely manner : p

[Anealen]

After a long lurking period, my first post.

I've the impression that for some of you the entire story could be shrunk in one strip:


Elan summing up everything in one of his songs.
Roy. Xykon. Sbang! Fizz! Swoosh!
End


Actually, I prefer the Giant's way.. Don't you? :smallamused:

[Twisted Otaku]

After a long lurking period, my first post.

I've the impression that for some of you the entire story could be shrunk in one strip:


Elan summing up everything in one of his songs.
Roy. Xykon. Sbang! Fizz! Swoosh!
End


Actually, I prefer the Giant's way.. Don't you? :smallamused:



not much I can say to that other than welcome to the forums!

[Jimorian]

Again: 3 months had passed. Expoistion was required to see what had happened. Recounting the fact that they cannot contact Haley is important and not at all obvious. And regardless, this is part of the main story, therefore not "filler" like the Intermission strip was.

Actually, I think this is the first time that it was confirmed what some of the effects of "Cloister" really were (no scrying, no magical communication at bare minimum). It may have been something we guessed a long time ago, but as a writer, you can't just get lazy and say "well, they figured it out in the forums, so I don't need to tell it in the story now."

[Maratanos]

Oh my gosh! I'm an individual reading OotS!

Therefore, I shall define filler.

I define these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) as filler.

All of you must bow before my definitions!





Grow up, guys.

[Coffee_Dragon]

This is such a filler thread. When will we get some content on the forum again? I propose we create a buffer of 2-4 threads so that if no one can come up with any content, there won't be a delay.

[Baidas Kebante]

Oh my gosh! I'm an individual reading OotS!

Therefore, I shall define filler.

I define these (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0443.html) three (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0114.html) strips (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0393.html) as filler.

All of you must bow before my definitions!





Grow up, guys.


XD

And some other letters, too.

[Freelance Henchman]

This is such a filler thread. When will we get some content on the forum again? I propose we create a buffer of 2-4 threads so that if no one can come up with any content, there won't be a delay.

That was such a filler post. When will we get some content on this thread again? I propose you create a buffer of 2-4 posts so that if you can not come up with any content, there won't be a delay.

[Coffee_Dragon]

I'd quit my day job, but you people don't buy enough T-shirts!

[chibibar]

I think the problem is that we get 3 comics a week and thus some people feel that it is a bit "slow" in terms of action, but I like it since it is a change of pace and we get more background story of what is going on. I don't know about you, but when I got my OoTS books. I finish reading them in less than an hour or so :)

[Calemyr]

This has been an increasingly annoying trait the more time I spend reading this comic. It's gotten to the point that I am severely tempted to make this my new signature.

A Word About Filler:

This (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=071022)is filler.
This (http://www.egscomics.com/Filler/d/20071031.html)is filler.
This (http://http://www.gpf-comics.com/d/19991210.html)is filler.
This (http://www.aliendice.com/archive.php?day=20071030)is filler.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)is filler.
This (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2006-11-24)is filler.
This (http://zapinspace.com/d/20070524.html) is filler.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) is NOT filler.
If you are so spoiled by thus comic that you feel justified to call legitimate content 'filler' just because it isn't of particular interest you, I really don't want to hear about it. Thank you.


What do you think?

[chibibar]

This has been an increasingly annoying trait the more time I spend reading this comic. It's gotten to the point that I am severely tempted to make this my new signature.

A Word About Filler:

This (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=071022)is filler.
This (http://www.egscomics.com/Filler/d/20071031.html)is filler.
This (http://http://www.gpf-comics.com/d/19991210.html)is filler.
This (http://www.aliendice.com/archive.php?day=20071030)is filler.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)is filler.
This (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2006-11-24)is filler.
This (http://zapinspace.com/d/20070524.html) is filler.

This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) is NOT filler.
If you are so spoiled by thus comic that you feel justified to call legitimate content 'filler' just because it isn't of particular interest you, I really don't want to hear about it. Thank you.


What do you think?


good one :)

[Twisted Otaku]

I like it but it might be a little long, but then again I suppose that's why you had it in the spoiler hidey thing. When I say long I'm only speaking to how you listed the filler links instead of doing

a
b
c
d

maybe do a, b, c, d etc etc : p

[Ampersand]

Well, since I was quoted (and proving that I never learn)...

I called 496 a filler for several reasons. First, I fail to see the relevance to the overall plot (though I guess that makes me uncreative)...unless the Giant plans to rip off Advent Children (and other stories too numerous to mention) and do a "my dead friends and relatives all give me power to smite the Big Bad with," Eric Greenhilt adds absolutely nothing to the story except another avenue to bash Eugene (based on the testimony of a very biased source, I might add, which has nonetheless been taken as gospel). Eric's revealed role in the story, to advance the timeline three months, could have easily been served by...I dunno, a one-panel game of bad mitten that Roy got caught up in.

Second, it seemed to be an attempt to inject cheap sentiment into the strip. Nothing brings out the canned "Awwww" like a deceased child, after all. I saw it as a transparent attempt at emotional manipulation...which sadly is difficult to separate from fiction. Far too many authors attempt to dictate how the audience should feel rather than presenting a situation and allowing them to come to their own conclusions, which is my preferred method of storytelling.

Last, I strongly suspect that Eric's entire purpose for being included was to cover up a plot hole introduced in 113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html). I believe that, at the time, the Giant intended the child in panel 7 to be Julia, and then later scripted (and posted) the Cliffport arc without realizing it. An understandable mistake, really...one panel versus a couple hundred comics at that point. At this point I am obligated to admit that I have only my suspicions and no actual proof.

So think what you will of that.

Incidentally, I also consider the second "page" of 468 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) to be filler.

[chibibar]

Well, since I was quoted (and proving that I never learn)...

I called 496 a filler for several reasons. First, I fail to see the relevance to the overall plot (though I guess that makes me uncreative)...unless the Giant plans to rip off Advent Children (and other stories too numerous to mention) and do a "my dead friends and relatives all give me power to smite the Big Bad with," Eric Greenhilt adds absolutely nothing to the story except another avenue to bash Eugene (based on the testimony of a very biased source, I might add, which has nonetheless been taken as gospel). Eric's revealed role in the story, to advance the timeline three months, could have easily been served by...I dunno, a one-panel game of bad mitten that Roy got caught up in.

Second, it seemed to be an attempt to inject cheap sentiment into the strip. Nothing brings out the canned "Awwww" like a deceased child, after all. I saw it as a transparent attempt at emotional manipulation...which sadly is difficult to separate from fiction. Far too many authors attempt to dictate how the audience should feel rather than presenting a situation and allowing them to come to their own conclusions, which is my preferred method of storytelling.

Last, I strongly suspect that Eric's entire purpose for being included was to cover up a plot hole introduced in 113 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0113.html). I believe that, at the time, the Giant intended the child in panel 7 to be Julia, and then later scripted (and posted) the Cliffport arc without realizing it. An understandable mistake, really...one panel versus a couple hundred comics at that point. At this point I am obligated to admit that I have only my suspicions and no actual proof.

So think what you will of that.

Incidentally, I also consider the second "page" of 468 (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0468.html) to be filler.

I think also Eric's 2nd purpose to show maybe WHY Roy is pissed at his dad also. Note that Roy mention about not having to watch the parent. I bet it is something that Eugene did cause Eric to die. There are some resolve to that have you thought about that? ;)

You are right that our view of Eugene is one sided (Roy). Roy has this major animosity against Eugene from the get go (from what we read) We know one of the major thing is that Roy is a fighter and Eugene is a mage...... and neither one respect each other.

Horace introduction shows that the relationship between Horace and Eugene is almost similar with Eugene and Roy....... what goes around comes around huh?

Also This shows that Roy DOES have a kinder gentler side. He loved his brother very much and miss him dearly. This is a good character development for Roy (hence not much of a filler)

Some of us see fillers to be more of nothing relate to the story at all... like outtakes, everyone sitting at "director's chair" waiting to be call upon or something like that.

[Calemyr]

Please tell me you're kidding. Eric and Horace are valuable clues to Roy's mentality:

First, Horace. Roy has been hand fed tales of his grandfather's might and valor since he was little kid beating stuffed dragons with toy swords. The Greenhilt family sword, HORACE's sword, has been a major factor in Roy's life. In the end, it was HORACE's career Roy chose to follow, not Eugene's. This is the man who's life has been a cornerstone of childhood, young adulthood, and even into adulthood, quite probably the single most important soul in in helping Roy define himself, and he'd never met the man even once! And you would have me believe that this man is of no narrative consequence? If that is not a joke, I shudder to imagine imagine an example of a story you feel has no filler...

Second, Eric. Seriously... wow. Is there any indication in Roy's entire upbringing of where he got his sense of responsibility? His father is a freaking joke when it comes to responsibility, swearing a blood oath and then kicking it to the curb when it no longer interested him, then dropping it on his son when he realized it was going to cost him in the long run... His mother is something of an unknown, but between her afterlife performance and her daughter, there's little hope to believe anything more than she could have potentially balanced her husband's influence out. Yet Roy's sense of responsibility is remarkable in spite of its unremarkable role models. Why? Because he failed - because his little brother died and because he could have done something. It's probably unreasonable to blame him for Eric's demise, but Roy did, because he did nothing even though he knew his father was doing something wrong. Inaction bred death, and so he has favored action ever since, even when it technically wasn't his responsibility.

Everything cool that Roy is, he is because of these two people (except for being smart and sarcastic - Eugene did contribute those, at least). To suggest for even a second that they are irrelevant to a story that is centered so largely on Roy is... well... so ludicrous it wouldn't even make a good joke. Next you'll tell me that Ben Parker adds nothing to Spiderman's story...

As for the "second page of filler", #468... what? They broke the freaking party up in that comic. They sundered the order and gave justification for why each person went the way they did, and then they showed a little of the eagerly anticipated payoff of a long-standing romantic sub-plot. And if you're labelling it "filler" because of the budding romance between the guards... well, you DO realize you're throwing out an entire strip for 3 frames in a double length strip, right?

Just because something doesn't interest you, it is not automatically a "filler" strip.

[David Argall]

A Word About Filler:
This (http://sluggy.com/daily.php?date=071022)is filler.
This (http://www.egscomics.com/Filler/d/20071031.html)is filler.
This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0033.html)is filler.
Now the computer expression "It's not a bug. It's a feature." may apply here. The wisdom of having these in the comic may be debatable, but they are not fillers. They are special bonus[?] events assumed to improve the comic in some way.


This (http://www.aliendice.com/archive.php?day=20071030)is filler.
This (http://dominic-deegan.com/view.php?date=2006-11-24)is filler.
These at least have the possibility of being filler, but it seems likely they are writer ego stroking rather than filler. Filler involves watering the booze, giving the reader half a strip padded into a full one. This isn't always dishonest [possibly not even commonly]. A lot of things are effectively just empty space, but it won't do to have empty space there. Just about anything you fill the space with will do. But it is just space filler.


This (http://zapinspace.com/d/20070524.html) is filler.
And this too does not fit the definition of filler. It looks to be more of a chapter title page, which is often a waste of space, true, but it still does not take the role of filler.


This (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0500.html) is NOT filler.

In total? No. In substantial part? Yes, it is filler. Roy's dealing with his dad could be cut in half, maybe 2/3, without loss.



Please tell me you're kidding. Eric and Horace are valuable clues to Roy's mentality:

Roy has been hand fed tales of his grandfather's might and valor since he was little kid beating stuffed dragons with toy swords.
This is what Roy remembers as important. That is not a measure of his childhood imputs. Given we have a report that Ma wanted him to be a mage, we must question any idea she was hand feeding him tales. Much more likely she was responding to his desired of what sort of tale he wanted to hear.


quite probably the single most important soul in in helping Roy define himself, and he'd never met the man even once! And you would have me believe that this man is of no narrative consequence?
Now the very fact he had never seen him means he was not the most important soul in shaping Roy. Somebody, presumably Ma, told him everything he knew about Harold and thus did the shaping, to the extent Roy didn't shape himself.
Harold might have been of narrative consequence if he had been sharply different from what Roy had been told. But as a confirmation, he was not needed.


Second, Eric. Seriously... wow. Is there any indication in Roy's entire upbringing of where he got his sense of responsibility? Yet Roy's sense of responsibility is remarkable in spite of its unremarkable role models. Why? Because he failed - because his little brother died and because he could have done something.
Now the idea that one's character is shaped by a dramatic event may be popular, but it is mostly nonsense. In the version of the story we have, Roy is already showing a sense of responsibility before the event. And we don't see all that much of a sense of responsibility in the first 260 or so strips. Roy is willing to leave Elan to the bandits. He cons party members into his side quest. He sides with Miko because he thinks her hot and then dumps her. Roy may have a strong sense of responsibility now, but he seems to have acquired it recently.

[Pip]

In Homer Simpson's voice:

Mmmmmm... Filler .... Ahhhhh......

:smalltongue:

[Porthos]

Honest Question Time: Why Do Stories Need To Be Told In The Minimum Amount Of Time?

Seriously.

I hear this "Oh, we could have said X in 3 strips instead of 7 strips," all of the time, and I don't understand it. Surely there is room for introspection and room to let characters "breathe".

This isn't a case of Trapped in the Closet, or a case of a 300 page book being expanded to 1000 pages. This is a case of a story where there are multiple storylines and character arcs. We don't need to run to the finish line as quickly as possible in this comic. This is a comic that has had side plots and diversions from almost Day One.

Or to put it another way, this comic serves several purposes: It tells of the overall tale to stop Xykon
It looks deeply in to the motivations and the happenings of its characters.
It salutes and mocks in equal measure gaming and gaming cliches
It tells random jokes because random jokes are funny
It makes sure to flesh out random sideplots

In other words, this comic isn't just about the tale of stopping Xykon. It is also a tale about the characters involved and RPGs in general. As well as "bringing teh funny." So if a strip either A) advances the main storyline, B) spends time examining one of the main characters, C) advances a sideplot, or D) makes a stand alone joke (related to gaming or not) it can not be filler in regards to OotS because OotS is not exclusively devoted to the plot of stopping Xykon.

It never has been, and it never will be (as far as I can tell).

So I guess that just means you will have to put up with what you consider to be filler, coz it ain't going away.

[chibibar]

In total? No. In substantial part? Yes, it is filler. Roy's dealing with his dad could be cut in half, maybe 2/3, without loss.

I will have to disagree on this, but before I disagree we have to see what kind of people we are. I am personally like to see the depth of a character. Especially the main character gotta have a life of its own. It will reflect in the future/past/ and present stories of what the character will do or the possibilities of what he/she can do.

Now..... The 500# comic shows a lot of psychological makeup of Roy and Eugene. Sure it could have been cut down (I doubt it personally but you think so) but it won't have the same picture in the end. We notice how Roy and Eugene actually LOVE to banter each other just cast. This may not be hate at all. This may actually reflect that the things that Eugene does to Roy is not consider Evil because this is how this family Father-Son communicate. BUT Roy has develop into a better person. Roy does not wish to pursue their current father-son relation as is. He wants to improve it. After Roy seeing his little brother, mother and his grandfather (basically his personal hero) Roy realize there is more to life than just useless argument.

The moment Roy STOP arguing with his father, notice how Eugene change and actually help Roy. I am guessing that Eugene was gonna help Roy anyways but want to have their usual banter before they got started. Character development as a whole, this strip shows a lot of growth between two characters (Eugene and Roy) I personally think that cutting some part of it out would reduce that effect (IMO)

[Lord Zentei]

Now the computer expression "It's not a bug. It's a feature." may apply here. The wisdom of having these in the comic may be debatable, but they are not fillers. They are special bonus[?] events assumed to improve the comic in some way.

"It's not a bug, it's a feature" is widely considered bullcrap invented by sales departments. :smalltongue:

If you can accept those as not-filler that "improve the comic in some way" and reject the same for the OOTS comics that actually relate something of the story, then I honestly don't know what to say. Hell, the El Goonish Shive one is even classified as filler by the artist himself!


These at least have the possibility of being filler, but it seems likely they are writer ego stroking rather than filler. Filler involves watering the booze, giving the reader half a strip padded into a full one. This isn't always dishonest [possibly not even commonly]. A lot of things are effectively just empty space, but it won't do to have empty space there. Just about anything you fill the space with will do. But it is just space filler.

And what is writer ego stroking, if not filler? If it is a part of the story, it is not "filler" -- otherwise just about everything an artist posts can be considered "filler", making the phrase meaningless.


And this too does not fit the definition of filler. It looks to be more of a chapter title page, which is often a waste of space, true, but it still does not take the role of filler.

Only it's not a chapter title page. It's a place holder for an actual story strip so the readers won't simply see a blank page or last week's installment when they go to the webpage. It's in the middle of a godsdamned action scene.



In total? No. In substantial part? Yes, it is filler. Roy's dealing with his dad could be cut in half, maybe 2/3, without loss.

You consider several pages of actual storytelling to be "filler" and all the previous examples of not-storytelling not to be?

Then what is what you consider the definition of "filler"? "Watering down the booze?" That definition is dependent on you knowing what is intended for the story -- which is not a given. How about this definition: "serving water when you promised to serve booze?" Sort of when you are in the middle of a scene, and the artist is too damn lazy to post a story page, so he posts a scetch instead, resulting in an experience for the reader not unlike hitting a hole in the road when on a pleasure cruise, or tuning in to some serial or other, only to see that the studio doesn't have anything ready, so it broadcasts promotional garbage or "behind the scenes" crap instead.

All the above fit that; the OOTS strips do not.

[Faramir]

I think SPoD deserves one of those classic single claps that slowly evolves into a thunderous applause.


Well said!

[Calemyr]

I agree with you 100% Chibibar. When 500 came out, I posted something similar, suggesting that this was the way Eugene relates to his son and that the only thing that even remotely scares him is the thought of losing Roy, so much so that he'd willingly make an ass of himself by intentionally mistaking Roy's words for reverse psychology. Unfortunately, the only thing they have all that much in common are their quick wits and sharp tongues: as far as Eugene is concerned, their verbal sparring is the closest thing he can manage to a bear hug.

Well, that was my take on events, at least.

[Freelance Henchman]

Then what is what you consider the definition of "filler"?

Don't bother, he calls just about everything filler. I think there's at least one person a week who asks him what the hell is NOT filler for him.

EDIT: forgot the NOT

[Hood]

If you say filler is anything that doesn't advance the plot or characters in any way, than... well, you wouldn't really have a comic strip anymore.

The point of the strip is to be entertaining and not a drama-fest, while still advancing the story. Funny moments like Elan's eye patch and the planeshifting evil party don't advance the story or develop the characters more, but if you don't have them, then that's not a comic strip. That's a summary. You could argure EVERYTHING but the bare bones (they fight Xykon. They win because Roy gets mad over Xykon breaking his sword. Everything besides that was filler.), but it'd make for a dull story.

Making a fleshed-out story with humor and developed characters is different than a story with pointless "filler."

However, I think "filler" does apply when there's TOO much unnecessary detail that distracts from the story- something that does not happen in the comic.

If you want filler, read Robert Jordan's books. If you want a story with interesting nuances, read oots.