Fighter build (extra feat at EVERY level + free exotic weapons proficiency)

[Mykerinos]

Hi guys,

In our new campaign, the GM introduced some modifications in an attempt to balance the power level of the different classes better and make the game a bit more low fantasy. Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

The fighter, on the other hand, will benefit from some improvements:

- 1 extra fighter feat at EVERY level (instead of every two levels)
- free exotic weapon proficiency for all exotic weapons
- 4 instead of 2 skills points

I imagine, it should be possible to build a pretty powerful fighter with those additional feats and skill points, even only using the PHB.

I was thinking archer/fighter, perhaps with the added ability to trip.

Any thoughts or recommendations are highly appreciated!

Thank you.

[Falontani]

20 fighter bonus feats, free exotic weapon proficiencies, and 4+int skills (albeit with an abysmal skill list) core only.... uhhhh. Fighter is better than Barbarian most definitely, probably better than rogue, and monk is so far behind. But. I don't think that core only you'll actually do anything other than fight at all decently, and even then... The sorcerer is still probably better than you...

[Twurps]

So you get 20 fighter feats, 6 regular feats, and 1 bonus if you go human. (phb only, so why wouldn't you.) for a total of 27 feats out of a very restricted list.
After picking a fighting style (ranged/melee), doesn't that just mean: pick 'm all?

[MaxiDuRaritry]

But how many fighter feats are actually worth taking in Core?

[Elves]

Bad fix. Fighter already gets a lot of feats. Adding more distends it in that area without addressing the things it lacks. To fix something you should fill in its absences instead of amping the part it's already the best at.

[sleepyphoenixx]

There aren't enough fighter bonus feats worth taking even for a normal fighter, especially in core-only. All this buff does is bloat your character sheet.

Any melee character benefits vastly more from expanded book access, but fighters especially so. And that goes double for archers of any kind. Core-only sucks for archers.
I'd suggest at least looking at the Complete's and Dungeonscape before going for ill-thought-out homebrew.

Also D&D is not very suitable for low magic games.
The pre-statted enemies assume that the party has access to certain effects at certain levels and baseline stats that are nearly impossible to meet without access to abundant magic and magic items.
You'd have to rebalance pretty much everything if you want to play low magic beyond the lowest levels, and even then it's unlikely to work very well.
It's simply not worth the effort compared to just finding a more suitable system.

[bean illus]

Hi guys,

In our new campaign, the GM introduced some modifications in an attempt to balance the power level of the different classes better and make the game a bit more low fantasy. Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

The fighter, on the other hand, will benefit from some improvements:

- 1 extra fighter feat at EVERY level (instead of every two levels)
- free exotic weapon proficiency for all exotic weapons
- 4 instead of 2 skills points

I imagine, it should be possible to build a pretty powerful fighter with those additional feats and skill points, even only using the PHB.

I was thinking archer/fighter, perhaps with the added ability to trip.

Any thoughts or recommendations are highly appreciated!

Thank you.

It sounds like a core game where nobody shows wizard.

Play cleric.

What i mean is, cleric is the best archer in core. Giving a fighter more core fighter feats won't change that.

What would help?

We can build a core archer / tripper with those guidelines, and explain why it's good, if that's what you want.

What levels do you anticipate playing?

If you want a feat heavy core fighter experience I suggest ...

Human feat
1 Fighter ff, feat
2 Cleric
3 Fighter ff, feat
4 Cleric
5 Fighter ff
6 Cleric feat

Do that until you decide you've got enough fighter, then finish cleric. Three should be enough, but you'll know when you get there.

[Saintheart]

Others have already commented, but in particular free EWP for all exotic weapons is nowhere near as generous as it sounds, mainly because
(1) you generally don't use more than one weapon at a time, and
(2) there are precious few exotic weapons actually worth using, especially in the PHB. Basically it comes down to Spiked Chain if you want to trip and bastard sword if you want to sword-and-board it, and what, you've saved yourself a whole feat in a progression where you have 20+ to work with and likely not even 20 feats that actually can work for Fighter.

On top of that is that while you might be proficient with all those weapons, stuff like Weapon Focus and similar (and things like Lightning Mace or Tormtor School) only works on one weapon at a time (unless you're a Warblade, which you're not because it's PHB-only, or you have an Aptitude weapon, which you don't, because it's PHB-only.)

[AvatarVecna]

I took a few passes at it. Unless you go TWF so that you can tack all the normal melee stuff onto TWF feats, you just straight-up run out of fighter feats to take that don't conflict with your starting style. Did you know that Toughness isn't actually a fighter bonus feat? I didn't.

[Melcar]

Hi guys,

In our new campaign, the GM introduced some modifications in an attempt to balance the power level of the different classes better and make the game a bit more low fantasy. Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

The fighter, on the other hand, will benefit from some improvements:

- 1 extra fighter feat at EVERY level (instead of every two levels)
- free exotic weapon proficiency for all exotic weapons
- 4 instead of 2 skills points

I imagine, it should be possible to build a pretty powerful fighter with those additional feats and skill points, even only using the PHB.

I was thinking archer/fighter, perhaps with the added ability to trip.

Any thoughts or recommendations are highly appreciated!

Thank you.

Its a huge nerf for the fighter to only have access to phb... im not sure your dm knows what he's doing sorry!

[liquidformat]

Echoing everyone else here, going phb is already a massive nerf for fighter and letting you have even more feats doesn't do anything to help since you don't have access to any good feats. Might as well take leadership and get a cleric as your cohort at least your cohort will be useful. Similarly giving fighters more skill points doesn't help the fact that their skill choices suck.

[Melcar]

Echoing everyone else here, going phb is already a massive nerf for fighter and letting you have even more feats doesn't do anything to help since you don't have access to any good feats. Might as well take leadership and get a cleric as your cohort at least your cohort will be useful. Similarly giving fighters more skill points doesn't help the fact that their skill choices suck.

Indeed... for such limited fighter-options, I too would suggest leadership, and make your followers capable of doing all the things your character canÂ’t, due to only having access to phb. Just to clarify, there are about 100 books for 3.x, using only 1% seems weird to me... and the lover the tier, the more that character needs further options! At this point it wouldn't matter if you had access to every feat in PHB, because PHB hasn't any good options for fighter...

Ypu should at least ask if your DM will allow you to gestalt your character... either with monk (which won't help alot, but give you some better saves, and some further options with better skills), or rogue...

That way, you'll have some options out of combat, and still be reasonably capable within combat... not so much with the monk, but with the rogue... Again, you DM is tricking you into thinking that he's giving you a boon, when in fact he's nerfing your fighter more than nerfing the spellcasters... For you to have a boon, you need to be able to execute the same actions as spellcasters... like fly, invisibility, stun enemies, open locked doors, cure hp damage, stuff like that... is really doesn't matter than you can swing a blade a 100 times, if you can't see or reach your enemy... the lack of options in a fighters repertoire is the main reason the class suckes compared to spellcaster... because you can do everything with magic.

I'm getting annoyed on your behalf... sorry!

[Mykerinos]

Thank you all for your input and explaining why fighter isn't a good choice despite the bonuses. That was really very helpful.

Cleric was mentioned several times and indeed it would normally have been my first choice, but the nerfs envisaged by our GM are massive.

Except for specific clerics of war deities, clerics are downgraded to a d6 hit die and may only use light armor. Also, the GM announced that its deity will regularly assign the cleric appropriate tasks.

Moreover, clerics only have access to limited spell lists/spheres that depend on the deity worshipped. In the GM's world, there are stronger and weaker deities. Clerics of stronger deities have more spell lists. Everyone gets the sphere "all" and between 2 and 6 added spheres. I can take a deity that gives me 6 added spheres. The specific spheres available depend on the deity.

No changes have been made to cleric domains.

Do you think cleric remains a viable option despite all the changes?

The spell lists are as follows:

1. All
Purify Food and Drink (Level 0): Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Bless (Level 1): Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M (Level 1): Makes holy water.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Align Weapon (Level 2): Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Atonement F X (Level 5): Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Hallow M (Level 5): Designates location as holy.
Unhallow M (Level 5): Designates location as unholy.
Miracle X (Level 9): Requests a deity’s intercession.

2. Animal
Calm Animals (Level 1): Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals (Level 1): Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger (Level 2): Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance (Level 2): Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal (Level 2): Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal (Level 2): Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Swarm (Level 3): Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Giant Vermin (Level 4): Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Animal Growth (Level 5): One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Tier]
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Creeping Doom (Level 7): Swarms of centipedes attack at your command.
Animal Shapes (Level 8): One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I (Level 1): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally II (Level 2): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally III (Level 3): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Level 4): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally V (Level 5): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (Level 6): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VII (Level 7): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Level 8): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX (Level 9): Calls creature to fight.

3. Astral
Planar Ally, Lesser X (Level 4): Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Plane Shift F (Level 5): As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Planar Ally X (Level 6): As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Ethereal Jaunt (Level 7): You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Planar Ally, Greater X (Level 8): As lesser planar ally, but up to 18 HD.
Astral Projection M (Level 9): Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Etherealness (Level 9): Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X (Level 9): Connects two planes for travel or summoning.

4. Charm
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Command (Level 1): One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Remove Fear (Level 1): Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per
four levels.
Calm Emotions (Level 2): Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Enthrall (Level 2): Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Hold Person (Level 2): Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Zone of Truth (Level 2): Subjects within range cannot lie.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Imbue with Spell Ability (Level 4): Transfer spells to subject.
Command, Greater (Level 5): As command, but affects one subject/level.
Geas/Quest (Level 6): As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Antipathy (Level 9): Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Sympathy M (Lebel 9): Object or location attracts certain creatures.

5. Combat
Guidance (Level 0): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Divine Favor (Level 1): You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Stone (Level 1): Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon (Level 1): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Bear’s Endurance (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Eagle’s Splendor (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Owl’s Wisdom (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Spiritual Weapon (Level 2): Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Prayer (Level 3): Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Divine Power (Level 4): You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Magic Weapon, Greater (Level 4): +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Flame Strike (Level 5): Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Righteous Might (Level 5): Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass (Level 6): As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass (Level 6): As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass (Level 6): As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass (Level 6): As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Holy Word (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.

6. Creation
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Create Food and Water (Level 3): Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Animate Objects (Level 6): Objects attack your foes.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Heroes’ Feast (Level 6): Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.

7. Divination
Detect Magic (Level 0): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison (Level 0): Detects poison in one creature or object.
Know Direction (Level 0): You discern north.
Read Magic (Level 0): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Comprehend Languages (Level 1): You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Undead (Level 1): Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Snares and Pits (Level 1): Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Augury M F (Level 2): Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Find Traps (Level 2): Notice traps as a rogue does.
Status (Level 2): Monitors condition, position of allies.
Locate Object (Level 3): Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Speak with Dead (Level 3): Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Discern Lies (Level 4): Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Divination M (Level 4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Sending (Level 4): Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues (Level 4): Speak any language.
Commune X (Level 5): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Scrying F (Level 5): Spies on subject from a distance.
True Seeing M (Level 5): Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path (Level 6): Shows most direct way to a location.
Scrying, Greater (Level 7): As scrying, but faster and longer.
Discern Location (Level 8): Reveals exact location of creature or object.

8. Elemental
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Mending (Level 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Produce Flame (Level 1): 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown.
Make Whole (Level 2): Repairs an object.
Fire Trap M (Level 2): Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level damage.
Flame Blade (Level 2): Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage.
Flaming Sphere (Level 2): Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Heat Metal (Level 2): Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Shatter (Level 2): Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Sound Burst (Level 2): Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Meld into Stone (Level 3): You and your gear merge with stone.
Stone Shape (Level 3): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Water Breathing (Level 3): Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk (Level 3): Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall (Level 3): Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Air Walk (Level 4): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Freedom of Movement (Level 4): Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Spike Stones (Level 4): Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Transmute Mud to Rock (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Wall of Fire (Level 5): Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall
deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Stone (Level 5): Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Move Earth (Level 6): Digs trenches and builds hills.
Wind Walk (Level 6): You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Fire Storm (Level 7): Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Earthquake (Level 8): Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Swarm (Level 9): Summons multiple elementals.
Implosion (Level 9): Kills one creature/round.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

9. Guardian
Silence (Level 2): Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
Glyph of Warding M (Level 3): Inscription harms those who pass it.
Symbol of Pain M (Level 5): Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep M (Level 5): Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Glyph of Warding, Greater (Level 6): As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Symbol of Fear M (Level 6): Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion M (Level 6): Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Symbol of Stunning M (Level 7): Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of Weakness M (Level 7): Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Symbol of Death M (Level 8): Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
Symbol of Insanity M (Level 8): Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.

10. Healing
Cure Minor Wounds (Level 0): Cures 1 point of damage.
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Cure Serious Wounds (Level 3): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Cure Critical Wounds (Level 4): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal, Mass (Level 9): As heal, but with several subjects.
True Resurrection M (Level 9): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

11. Necromantic
Inflict Minor Wounds (Level 0): Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Virtue (Level 0): Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Curse Water M (Level 1): Makes unholy water.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1): Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Deathwatch (Level 1): Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Aid (Level 2): +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Death Knell (Level 2): Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Desecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Gentle Repose (Level 2): Preserves one corpse.
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Animate Dead M (Level 3): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Contagion (Level 3): Infects subject with chosen disease.
Inflict Serious Wounds (Level 3): Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max+15).
Inflict Critical Wounds (Level 4): Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max+20).
Poison (Level 4): Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Reincarnate (Level 4): Brings dead subject back in a random body.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M (Level 5): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Slay Living (Level 5): Touch attack kills subject.
Create Undead (Level 6): Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Harm (Level 6): Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Create Greater Undead M (Level 8): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Energy Drain (Level 9): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind (Level 9): Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.

12. Plant
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Entangle (Level 1): Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius.
Goodberry (Level 1): 2d4 berries each cure 1 hp (max 8 hp/24 hours).
Pass without Trace (Level 1): One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Shillelagh (Level 1): Cudgel or quarterstaff becomes +1 weapon (1d10 damage) for 1 min./level.
Tree Shape (Level 2): You look exactly like a tree for 1 hour/level.
Warp Wood (Level 2): Bends wood (shaft, handle, door, plank).
Wood Shape (Level 2): Rearranges wooden objects to suit you.
Diminish Plants (Level 3): Reduces size or blights growth of normal plants.
Plant Growth (Level 3): Grows vegetation, improves crops.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Spike Growth (Level 3): Creatures in area take 1d4 damage, may be slowed.
Antiplant Shell (Level 4): Keeps animated plants at bay.
Blight (Level 4): Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Baum]
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Tree Stride (Level 5): Step from one tree to another far away.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Ironwood (Level 6): Magic wood is strong as steel.
Liveoak (Level 6): Oak becomes treant guardian.
Repel Wood (Level 6): Pushes away wooden objects.
Transport via Plants (Level 6): Move instantly from one plant to another of the same kind.
Animate Plants (Level 7): One or more plants animate and fight for you.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.
Control Plants (Level 8): Control actions of one or more plant creatures.
Shambler (Level 9): Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.

13. Protection
Resistance (Level 0): Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Endure Elements (Level 1): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield (Level 1): Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge
out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary (Level 1): Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith (Level 1): Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Remove Paralysis (Level 2): Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy (Level 2): Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2): Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other F (Level 2): You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2): Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Dispel Magic (Level 3): Cancels spells and magical effects.
Invisibility Purge (Level 3): Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Vestment (Level 3): Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 3): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10
min./level.
Obscure Object (Level 3): Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Energy (Level 3): Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Curse (Level 3): Frees object or person from curse.
Death Ward (Level 4): Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dismissal (Level 4): Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity (Level 4): Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Break Enchantment (Level 5): Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrifica-
tion.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 5): +4 bonus against attacks.
Spell Resistance (Level 5): Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antilife Shell (Level 6): 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment (Level 6): Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater (Level 6): As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M (Level 6): Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Repulsion (Level 7): Creatures can’t approach you.
Antimagic Field (Level 8): Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Dimensional Lock (Level 8): Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Holy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Shield of Law F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater (Level 8): As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.

14. Summoning
Summon Monster I (Level 1): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster II (Level 2): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster III (Level 3): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IV (Level 4): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster V (Level 5): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VI (Level 6): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VII (Level 7): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VIII (Level 8): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IX (Level 9): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Helping Hand (Level 3): Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Word of Recall (Level 6): Teleports you back to designated place.

15. Sun
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Consecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Darkness (Level 2): 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Continual Flame M (Level 3): Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Daylight (Level 3): 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness (Level 3): Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Searing Light (Level 3): Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Disrupting Weapon (Level 5): Melee weapon destroys undead.
Undeath to Death M (Level 6): Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Sunbeam (Level 7): Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
Sunburst (Level 8): Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.

16. Weather
Faerie Fire (Level 1): Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Obscuring Mist (Level 1): Fog surrounds you.
Fog Cloud (Level 2): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (Level 2): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Call Lightning (Level 3): Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky.
Control Water (Level 4): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Call Lightning Storm (Level 5): As call lightning, but 5d6 damage per bolt.
Control Winds (Level 5): Change wind direction and speed.
Control Weather (Level 7): Changes weather in local area.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

17. Curse
Bane (Level 1): Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Cause Fear (Level 1): One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Doom (Level 1): One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Bestow Curse (Level 3): –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance
of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Dimensional Anchor (Level 4): Bars extradimensional movement.
Baleful Polymorph (Level 5): Transforms subject into harmless animal.
Mark of Justice (Level 5): Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Blasphemy (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
Destruction F (Level 7): Kills subject and destroys remains.
Dictum (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Refuge M (Level 7): Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Word of Chaos (Level 7): Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects.

[Melcar]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'd even want to play in his game, but that's not very helpful... I'd probably be playing a rogue in your case focusing on stealth, so screw combat... take feats that increase your stealth and infiltration and exfiltration... Do that and let others worry about combat... make your own fun in the game, by avoiding combat and ghost your way around guards and locked doors... use your skills primarily before combat and during downtime. Steal items for your party, and get the jump on your enemies by stalking them... play a race that can see in the dark... this way, you won't feel the limitations so much and rogues are in a reasonably good place - stealth wise - using only phb...

and no, I would not want to play a cleric in that game!

[AvatarVecna]

To be perfectly honest, I'm not sure I'd even want to play in his game, but that's not very helpful... I'd probably be playing a rogue in your case focusing on stealth, so screw combat... take feats that increase your stealth and infiltration and exfiltration... Do that and let others worry about combat... make your own fun in the game, by avoiding combat and ghost your way around guards and locked doors... use your skills primarily before combat and during downtime. Steal items for your party, and get the jump on your enemies by stalking them... play a race that can see in the dark... this way, you won't feel the limitations so much and rogues are in a reasonably good place - stealth wise - using only phb...

and no, I would not want to play a cleric in that game!

No Darkstalker means that a guard dog catches you immediately.

[Melcar]

No Darkstalker means that a guard dog catches you immediately.

Ahhh. crap, yes forgot about that!

[sleepyphoenixx]

No Darkstalker means that a guard dog catches you immediately.

Only if you get within 15-60ft of it, depending on wind direction. Even then it can only pinpoint you if it gets within 5ft.
It's also easily countered with a simply Hide from Animals.

[Mykerinos]

Thanks for the assessment of the cleric and the further suggestions.

So you feel rouge is a class that works okay with just the PHB. I will look into that.

What about the further options: barbarian, monk, ranger and paladin? Is the barbarian or the ranger any good with just the PHB to draw from?

There is also the nerfed sorcerer.
Changes to that class include:

Availability of spells (PHB only):
Always available: Divination and the 5 universal spells
Additionally available:
EITHER
2 schools out of the following: Abjuration, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantement
OR
1 school out of the following: Conjuration, Evocation oder Transmutation

In addition, there are some minor changes (inconveniences) regarding the components needed for casting, especially those for damage spells. I will spare you the details.

However, there are also buffs to that class. The combat-related skills are replaced by those of the bard (better hit die, better Saves/BAB, better weapon/armor proficiencies, 4 skill points/level, some additional class skills).

My core interest is determining which of the available class (unmodified and modified ones) is the strongest with only PHB to draw from.

The GM generally wants to scale down the power level. This won't only apply to the players but also to the environment. Like someone mentioned earlier, it may be questionable whether a low magic D&D setting makes any sense - but I will have to make the best of it, I guess.

Thank you for your help.

[holbita]

Instead of free exotic proficiency we like using the Weapon Groups variant rule from UA in our games. It allows for good BAB classes to get "free" exotic proficiencies and to not be completely screwed whenever they lose a specific weapon. I find it's a very elegant way to boost martial classes and gives some amount of character personalization even if you are not. The only ones that get nerfed are classes like the wizard... and honestly I am okay with that, it even gives you a reason to choose sorcerer over wizard even if a very small one.

[sleepyphoenixx]

All the martial classes are kind of lame in core-only, but rangers and paladins especially so.
They don't offer much in core-only and benefit massively from expanded book access, both through feats and ACF's.
While barbarians also benefit from more books they're probably the best off.
Monks are always trash even with all the books. In core-only they're a buff commoner with some party tricks.

A lot of this also depends on your combat style. Archery, TWF and sword & board suck in core because of the lack of available bonus damage.
You basically need to be a rogue (for sneak attack) to make archery or TWF viable.
Basically if you want to be a viable mundane character in core-only you'll be a str-based THF melee with Power Attack or a rogue. Since neither paladin nor ranger offer anything to support that you'll probably be best off as a barbarian with an optional fighter dip.

If i played in a campaign like that at all i'd probably go for a sorcerer, depending on how annoying those inconveniences are. Damage spells suck anyway, go for summoning or BFC.
You can make a viable sorc with divination + conjuration and wouldn't have the spells known for massive versatility anyway.

A cleric would work too but i'd be too annoyed at the nerfs (specifically the limited spell list) to enjoy it.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Monks are always trash even with all the books. In core-only they're a buff commoner with some party tricks.Core monks do, indeed, suck, although a dip here and there can grant some defensive and offensive boosts to certain characters.

With a greatly expanded source list, however, monks have a ridiculously high ceiling compared to their likewise ridiculously low floor, but it requires a LOT of optimization to get there (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863).

[bean illus]

Thank you all for your input and explaining why fighter isn't a good choice despite the bonuses. That was really very helpful.

Cleric was mentioned several times and indeed it would normally have been my first choice, but the nerfs envisaged by our GM are massive.

Except for specific clerics of war deities, clerics are downgraded to a d6 hit die and may only use light armor. Also, the GM announced that its deity will regularly assign the cleric appropriate tasks.

Moreover, clerics only have access to limited spell lists/spheres that depend on the deity worshipped. In the GM's world, there are stronger and weaker deities. Clerics of stronger deities have more spell lists. Everyone gets the sphere "all" and between 2 and 6 added spheres. I can take a deity that gives me 6 added spheres. The specific spheres available depend on the deity.

No changes have been made to cleric domains.

Do you think cleric remains a viable option despite all the changes?

The spell lists are as follows:


1. All
Purify Food and Drink (Level 0): Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Bless (Level 1): Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M (Level 1): Makes holy water.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Align Weapon (Level 2): Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Atonement F X (Level 5): Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Hallow M (Level 5): Designates location as holy.
Unhallow M (Level 5): Designates location as unholy.
Miracle X (Level 9): Requests a deity’s intercession.

2. Animal
Calm Animals (Level 1): Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals (Level 1): Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger (Level 2): Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance (Level 2): Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal (Level 2): Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal (Level 2): Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Swarm (Level 3): Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Giant Vermin (Level 4): Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Animal Growth (Level 5): One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Tier]
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Creeping Doom (Level 7): Swarms of centipedes attack at your command.
Animal Shapes (Level 8): One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I (Level 1): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally II (Level 2): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally III (Level 3): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Level 4): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally V (Level 5): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (Level 6): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VII (Level 7): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Level 8): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX (Level 9): Calls creature to fight.

3. Astral
Planar Ally, Lesser X (Level 4): Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Plane Shift F (Level 5): As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Planar Ally X (Level 6): As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Ethereal Jaunt (Level 7): You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Planar Ally, Greater X (Level 8): As lesser planar ally, but up to 18 HD.
Astral Projection M (Level 9): Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Etherealness (Level 9): Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X (Level 9): Connects two planes for travel or summoning.

4. Charm
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Command (Level 1): One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Remove Fear (Level 1): Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per
four levels.
Calm Emotions (Level 2): Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Enthrall (Level 2): Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Hold Person (Level 2): Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Zone of Truth (Level 2): Subjects within range cannot lie.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Imbue with Spell Ability (Level 4): Transfer spells to subject.
Command, Greater (Level 5): As command, but affects one subject/level.
Geas/Quest (Level 6): As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Antipathy (Level 9): Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Sympathy M (Lebel 9): Object or location attracts certain creatures.

5. Combat
Guidance (Level 0): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Divine Favor (Level 1): You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Stone (Level 1): Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon (Level 1): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Bear’s Endurance (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Eagle’s Splendor (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Owl’s Wisdom (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Spiritual Weapon (Level 2): Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Prayer (Level 3): Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Divine Power (Level 4): You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Magic Weapon, Greater (Level 4): +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Flame Strike (Level 5): Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Righteous Might (Level 5): Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass (Level 6): As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass (Level 6): As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass (Level 6): As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass (Level 6): As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Holy Word (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.

6. Creation
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Create Food and Water (Level 3): Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Animate Objects (Level 6): Objects attack your foes.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Heroes’ Feast (Level 6): Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.

7. Divination
Detect Magic (Level 0): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison (Level 0): Detects poison in one creature or object.
Know Direction (Level 0): You discern north.
Read Magic (Level 0): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Comprehend Languages (Level 1): You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Undead (Level 1): Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Snares and Pits (Level 1): Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Augury M F (Level 2): Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Find Traps (Level 2): Notice traps as a rogue does.
Status (Level 2): Monitors condition, position of allies.
Locate Object (Level 3): Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Speak with Dead (Level 3): Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Discern Lies (Level 4): Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Divination M (Level 4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Sending (Level 4): Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues (Level 4): Speak any language.
Commune X (Level 5): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Scrying F (Level 5): Spies on subject from a distance.
True Seeing M (Level 5): Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path (Level 6): Shows most direct way to a location.
Scrying, Greater (Level 7): As scrying, but faster and longer.
Discern Location (Level 8): Reveals exact location of creature or object.

8. Elemental
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Mending (Level 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Produce Flame (Level 1): 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown.
Make Whole (Level 2): Repairs an object.
Fire Trap M (Level 2): Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level damage.
Flame Blade (Level 2): Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage.
Flaming Sphere (Level 2): Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Heat Metal (Level 2): Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Shatter (Level 2): Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Sound Burst (Level 2): Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Meld into Stone (Level 3): You and your gear merge with stone.
Stone Shape (Level 3): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Water Breathing (Level 3): Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk (Level 3): Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall (Level 3): Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Air Walk (Level 4): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Freedom of Movement (Level 4): Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Spike Stones (Level 4): Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Transmute Mud to Rock (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Wall of Fire (Level 5): Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall
deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Stone (Level 5): Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Move Earth (Level 6): Digs trenches and builds hills.
Wind Walk (Level 6): You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Fire Storm (Level 7): Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Earthquake (Level 8): Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Swarm (Level 9): Summons multiple elementals.
Implosion (Level 9): Kills one creature/round.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

9. Guardian
Silence (Level 2): Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
Glyph of Warding M (Level 3): Inscription harms those who pass it.
Symbol of Pain M (Level 5): Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep M (Level 5): Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Glyph of Warding, Greater (Level 6): As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Symbol of Fear M (Level 6): Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion M (Level 6): Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Symbol of Stunning M (Level 7): Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of Weakness M (Level 7): Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Symbol of Death M (Level 8): Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
Symbol of Insanity M (Level 8): Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.

10. Healing
Cure Minor Wounds (Level 0): Cures 1 point of damage.
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Cure Serious Wounds (Level 3): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Cure Critical Wounds (Level 4): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal, Mass (Level 9): As heal, but with several subjects.
True Resurrection M (Level 9): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

11. Necromantic
Inflict Minor Wounds (Level 0): Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Virtue (Level 0): Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Curse Water M (Level 1): Makes unholy water.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1): Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Deathwatch (Level 1): Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Aid (Level 2): +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Death Knell (Level 2): Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Desecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Gentle Repose (Level 2): Preserves one corpse.
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Animate Dead M (Level 3): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Contagion (Level 3): Infects subject with chosen disease.
Inflict Serious Wounds (Level 3): Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max+15).
Inflict Critical Wounds (Level 4): Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max+20).
Poison (Level 4): Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Reincarnate (Level 4): Brings dead subject back in a random body.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M (Level 5): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Slay Living (Level 5): Touch attack kills subject.
Create Undead (Level 6): Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Harm (Level 6): Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Create Greater Undead M (Level 8): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Energy Drain (Level 9): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind (Level 9): Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.

12. Plant
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Entangle (Level 1): Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius.
Goodberry (Level 1): 2d4 berries each cure 1 hp (max 8 hp/24 hours).
Pass without Trace (Level 1): One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Shillelagh (Level 1): Cudgel or quarterstaff becomes +1 weapon (1d10 damage) for 1 min./level.
Tree Shape (Level 2): You look exactly like a tree for 1 hour/level.
Warp Wood (Level 2): Bends wood (shaft, handle, door, plank).
Wood Shape (Level 2): Rearranges wooden objects to suit you.
Diminish Plants (Level 3): Reduces size or blights growth of normal plants.
Plant Growth (Level 3): Grows vegetation, improves crops.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Spike Growth (Level 3): Creatures in area take 1d4 damage, may be slowed.
Antiplant Shell (Level 4): Keeps animated plants at bay.
Blight (Level 4): Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Baum]
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Tree Stride (Level 5): Step from one tree to another far away.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Ironwood (Level 6): Magic wood is strong as steel.
Liveoak (Level 6): Oak becomes treant guardian.
Repel Wood (Level 6): Pushes away wooden objects.
Transport via Plants (Level 6): Move instantly from one plant to another of the same kind.
Animate Plants (Level 7): One or more plants animate and fight for you.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.
Control Plants (Level 8): Control actions of one or more plant creatures.
Shambler (Level 9): Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.

13. Protection
Resistance (Level 0): Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Endure Elements (Level 1): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield (Level 1): Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge
out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary (Level 1): Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith (Level 1): Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Remove Paralysis (Level 2): Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy (Level 2): Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2): Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other F (Level 2): You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2): Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Dispel Magic (Level 3): Cancels spells and magical effects.
Invisibility Purge (Level 3): Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Vestment (Level 3): Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 3): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10
min./level.
Obscure Object (Level 3): Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Energy (Level 3): Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Curse (Level 3): Frees object or person from curse.
Death Ward (Level 4): Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dismissal (Level 4): Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity (Level 4): Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Break Enchantment (Level 5): Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrifica-
tion.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 5): +4 bonus against attacks.
Spell Resistance (Level 5): Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antilife Shell (Level 6): 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment (Level 6): Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater (Level 6): As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M (Level 6): Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Repulsion (Level 7): Creatures can’t approach you.
Antimagic Field (Level 8): Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Dimensional Lock (Level 8): Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Holy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Shield of Law F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater (Level 8): As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.

14. Summoning
Summon Monster I (Level 1): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster II (Level 2): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster III (Level 3): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IV (Level 4): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster V (Level 5): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VI (Level 6): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VII (Level 7): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VIII (Level 8): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IX (Level 9): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Helping Hand (Level 3): Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Word of Recall (Level 6): Teleports you back to designated place.

15. Sun
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Consecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Darkness (Level 2): 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Continual Flame M (Level 3): Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Daylight (Level 3): 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness (Level 3): Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Searing Light (Level 3): Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Disrupting Weapon (Level 5): Melee weapon destroys undead.
Undeath to Death M (Level 6): Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Sunbeam (Level 7): Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
Sunburst (Level 8): Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.

16. Weather
Faerie Fire (Level 1): Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Obscuring Mist (Level 1): Fog surrounds you.
Fog Cloud (Level 2): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (Level 2): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Call Lightning (Level 3): Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky.
Control Water (Level 4): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Call Lightning Storm (Level 5): As call lightning, but 5d6 damage per bolt.
Control Winds (Level 5): Change wind direction and speed.
Control Weather (Level 7): Changes weather in local area.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

17. Curse
Bane (Level 1): Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Cause Fear (Level 1): One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Doom (Level 1): One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Bestow Curse (Level 3): –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance
of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Dimensional Anchor (Level 4): Bars extradimensional movement.
Baleful Polymorph (Level 5): Transforms subject into harmless animal.
Mark of Justice (Level 5): Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Blasphemy (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
Destruction F (Level 7): Kills subject and destroys remains.
Dictum (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Refuge M (Level 7): Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Word of Chaos (Level 7): Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects.
So, at the beginning of a block of info, you can write ...

[ spoiler=Spell List]
Remove the space before the word "spoiler".
At the he end of the block, write ...
[ /spoiler].

Oh, and it's important to know what levels you're likely to play though.


If you want a fighter/cleric archer you can do that.

Don't worry about the d6 hp cleric thing. It'll only put you a bit behind, as you'll have fighter levels.

Make sure to get the combat sphere. You'll want guidance, divine favor, prayer, greater magic weapon, divine power, righteous might.
Depending on if there is a healer, or healing items, you might consider healing. An archer who can't pull his bow is in trouble.

[Anthrowhale]

For the party, it sounds like you need:
(a) A cleric with "healing" and "protection". There are important unique effects for the whole party here, and a party without access to those two will invariably suffer.
(b) A sorcerer with access to Conjuration. Teleportation is essential at higher levels and the BFC/summons are excellent/critical ancillary benefits.
(c) A sorcerer with access to Transmutation. This is essential for flight, but it also provides dramatic versatility via the polymorph line.

On the other hand, it sounds like sorcerer has been buffed in terms of basic combat stats.

Given all this, my inclination would be to pick one of a-c so an essential role is covered and then plan things out to cover more roles as possible. For example, it sounds like a transmutation specialist sorcerer could make a potent gish and perhaps it's natural for the conjuration specialist sorcerer to take a party face role? I'm also unclear on what sets of specialties are available to clerics with access to healing and protection.

[Troacctid]

I don't think you ever said what level the campaign is starting at. That makes a HUGE difference. If you're starting at level 1, fighter is absolutely 100% viable and will probably perform great! If you're starting at level 15, fighter is pure garbage and should be thrown directly into the nearest dumpster.

[Elves]

Core monks do, indeed, suck, although a dip here and there can grant some defensive and offensive boosts to certain characters.

With a greatly expanded source list, however, monks have a ridiculously high ceiling compared to their likewise ridiculously low floor, but it requires a LOT of optimization to get there (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial/page25&p=15474863#post15474863).

That build has some cool tricks, but the feats chapter is not primary source for what class features classes get (which includes feats and proficiencies), so the old "swap out armor proficiency feats" trick is not RAW. That puts it down like 10 feats.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

That build has some cool tricks, but the feats chapter is not primary source for what class features classes get (which includes feats and proficiencies), so the old "swap out armor proficiency feats" trick is not RAW. That puts it down like 10 feats.So the feats chapter isn't primary source for feats. Gotcha.

[Elves]

It's primary for feats, but not for classes and class features. If Power Attack said "wizards automatically get this as a bonus feat" but there was no mention of that in the wizard class text, they don't get it. This is the same.

[liquidformat]

Yeah starting level and expected ending level are both very useful to know for the game as well as what your party is playing. I am surprised the 'Healing domain' isn't combined with all as that domain seems like it should be given to all clerics. Besides that it sounds like there is a monstrous swing in power level of clerics depending on deity choice. Even ignoring deities that have less than 6 domains there is a pretty huge power swing depending on which 6 domains are chosen. Just seeing what your DM has chosen I fear for your game as they clearly don't seem to have a very good grasp of it....

Anyways, here are some build thoughts.

If you are going Rogue two weapon fighting or ranged a single level dip of Barbarian does wonders for your power level as rage is very good. If you find your dm likes to have more than one encounter a day then 4 levels of barbarian can be helpful. I would also include some fighter levels to get more feats. Fighter is a better choice than Ranger for you.

As said before sorcerer conjurer is probably your best choice and it would be rather important for your party to have a sorcerer conjurer in the party. Transmuter works very well as a gish, but is more of a second sorcerer role. Illusion plus any of the other schools is a pretty good choice as well and would round things out nicely as a secondary sorcerer for the party.

Let us know what deities have which domains but optimally you want a cleric that has Healing and Protection; Combat is a great third choice and so is divination if you don't have a sorcerer in the party. Animal is better than summoning, astral is only good at level 7 plus but is quite good, creation kind of sucks, and the rest really depend on what you are trying to do.

[Mykerinos]

Thanks a lot for the excellent input.

Regarding the campaign level:
We will start at character level 1 and probably go up to around level 13. At least that's how it was in the last campaign.

Info regarding cleric:
The GM hasn't fleshed them out yet. Currently, I only have the following very limited information (he will provide more information upon request):

[NB: Domains are as usual. The nerf is that in terms of regular spells clerics are now restricted to certain spheres, which are distinct from the domains, even if they overlap in terms of content. It's a bit of a strange approach. But that's how my GM wants it.]

Lanfear:
Domains: order, evil, healing, trickery
Spheres (partial means that there is a spell level cap):
All (full)
• Charm (full)
• Healing (full)
• Divination (partial – Level 0-3)
• Protection (partial – Level 0-3)

Toveine:
Domains: destruction , fire, war, evil
Spheres:
no information available yet

Generally in terms of domains, I like trickery and travel. I played a cleric before and found the domain spells quite useful.

As for spheres, thanks for the input on that. I will have a closer look and let you know once the GM has provided more information on the deities. I asked him for information on the greater deities, which grant access to 6 spheres.

Regarding the suggestions made so far:

1. Rouge/fighter/barbarian sounds good. However, I suspect my GM will not allow rage in combination with sneak attack. So that route may not be available. Accordingly, should I perhaps leave rouge out and go for barbarian/fighter with THW + power attack + archery (even though PHB lacks the feats to make that viable, as I understood from your comments). Are the bonus feats (1 extra feat/level) sufficient for that? And would I be able to get the tripping feats on top of that?
As I understand from your comments, fighter might be a valid option, since the campaign will be low level (and low magic).

2. Sorcerer is my favorite option at the moment. I think I would go for conjuring. I played a conjurer before and enjoyed it. On the other hand, I could take 2 schools if I go for the "lesser" schools. Apart from illusion, which other lesser schools are recommendable? NB: I will only have access to PHB spells.

3. Cleric might still be an option. If I go for a greater deity, I can access 6 spheres, and if I opt for a war deity, I might even get around the hit die nerf and the armor restriction.

Thanks again to everyone!

[Silly Name]

1. Rouge/fighter/barbarian sounds good. However, I suspect my GM will not allow rage in combination with sneak attack. So that route may not be available. Accordingly, should I perhaps leave rouge out and go for barbarian/fighter with THW + power attack + archery (even though PHB lacks the feats to make that viable, as I understood from your comments). Are the bonus feats (1 extra feat/level) sufficient for that? And would I be able to get the tripping feats on top of that?
As I understand from your comments, fighter might be a valid option, since the campaign will be low level (and low magic).

In core, there are exactly four feats for tripping: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain) and Combat Reflexes. And Combat Expertise is there only because it's a requisite for Improved Trip. With your DM's homebrew, you could finish the entire Power Attack chain with just 4 levels of fighter, and that's just because Great Cleave requires BaB +4.

Since you already get free proficiency with all exotic weapons, you only need three feats - which you can all get at level 1 if you start as a Human Fighter. At second level you can pick Power Attack, and at third level you get two other feats (I'd recommend Improved Initiative & Blind-fight)

Archery isn't a terribly powerful fighting style in Core-only, but since you get so many bonus feats you may as well use them to round out your options - I guess it'll be nice to not feel useless if you end up fighting enemies out of your melee reach.

Honestly, I'd just make a Horizon Tripper (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?80415-The-Horizon-Tripper-(Core-Melee-Build)): Fighter 1/Barbarian 1/Ranger 3/Horizon Walker X, and choose whether you want to go guisarme/spiked gauntlet or embrace the silliness of the spiked chain. Choose archery as your ranger combat style.

[Anthrowhale]

By level 13, I expect that you'll feel the difference between a fighter-type character and a spellcaster quite strongly. I'd estimate that a transformation sorcerer would be weaker than a fighter-type character at a melee role from levels 1-3, reach parity over levels 4-7 (Alter Self, Fly, Haste, GMW), and pull away at levels 8+ (Polymorph!). If the party cooperates well, the fighter type could still be useful as a buff target over those levels.

For sorcerer, Abjuration is a good generally useful school which is mostly redundant with and generally inferior to the protection sphere over those levels. Enchantment is like Illusion in that it can be powerful or fall flat depending on the opponents. Both tend to fall flat more often as you go up in level. Necromancy tends to be weak at lower levels, but it picks up if you exploit Magic Jar effectively.

[Kayblis]

Monks are always trash even with all the books. In core-only they're a buff commoner with some party tricks.


How wrong you are my friend. A Monk with access to all books has so much to give... Chaos Monk allows Barb dips, Martial Monk gives all Fighter feats as bonus feat choices, Invisible Fist has invisibility and Blink, and between your class features and Intuitive Attack you can make a killer Wis-based monk with all sources. I'm talking from experience.

But to reply to OP, your DM really doesn't seem to want to play D&D. It looks like he wants a Conan RPG game. As things look, you won't be able to have fun the standard way, so you have few options: Pick a Sorcerer that has Conjuration, pick a War Cleric with the most lists you can gather, or pick a Rogue and multiclass with Fighter for a few extra feats. Buy a pack of dogs to flank with. You don't have many options if you don't want to suck.

[Troacctid]

Yeah, I think fighter would be totally fine. You'll do well at low levels, and if you ever die later on, you can switch to a more backloaded class.

I'd want to be an orc for the Strength boost, but it's PHB only, so it'll have to be half-orc (or dwarf, if the point buy isn't high enough to get Combat Expertise with an Int penalty). Lead with Power Attack and Cleave, which are powerful tools if you're the party's main DPR. Then grab Combat Reflexes at level 2, followed by Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at level 3, opening up the tripping option. Next, you can look at Quick Draw, Far Shot, Point Blank Shot, and Precise Shot to start messing with thrown weapons, including the option for nets and bolas for longer-range disruption; Two-Weapon Fighting and its ilk to get in extra armor spike attacks, or even audible to a double weapon like a dire flail; Improved Unarmed Strike and Improved Grapple to open up grappling (and maybe Deflect Arrows while you're at it); or Improved Disarm, which I personally think is a bit underrated.

At some point, it wouldn't be a bad idea to multiclass as a barbarian. Grab a single level, then take Extra Rage. The Strength boost will do a lot of work.

[sleepyphoenixx]

How wrong you are my friend. A Monk with access to all books has so much to give... Chaos Monk allows Barb dips, Martial Monk gives all Fighter feats as bonus feat choices, Invisible Fist has invisibility and Blink, and between your class features and Intuitive Attack you can make a killer Wis-based monk with all sources. I'm talking from experience.

A monk with access to all books is still worse than any other class at the same level of optimization. Well, except NPC classes and Truenamer.
You're always behind what most other classes would achieve with a similar level of effort.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's primary for feats, but not for classes and class features. If Power Attack said "wizards automatically get this as a bonus feat" but there was no mention of that in the wizard class text, they don't get it. This is the same.The feat itself gives itself to you if you take classes other than the ones mentioned. The classes themselves don't have to say anything.

Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?

[Troacctid]

The feat itself gives itself to you if you take classes other than the ones mentioned. The classes themselves don't have to say anything.

Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?
It's a pretty poor monk build in general, though. In Iron Chef, it would be maaaybe like a 12/20 at best. Most of the tricks are either highly suspect or flat-out don't work at all, so you're tanking elegance on top of losing a lot of power points once you account for DM adjudication. The presentation is also garbled and messy, making it hard to read, and it relies heavily on items and WBL, which is sure to hurt you in UotSI. There are some FTQ problems in the sequencing, and even if your DM allows DCFS, you don't have any native access to it, nor do you have the UMD to cast it from a scroll, and as an 8th-level spell, any given metropolis has only about a 20% chance to contain a cleric capable of offering it as a spellcasting service. And due to some faulty math, the items used exceed the available WBL for a 20th-level character. Altogether, it's mostly smoke and mirrors: a pile of questionable tricks that are poorly justified, poorly presented, and largely independent of monk as a class. I wouldn't give it any more credence than the infamous partially charged wand monk. At least UMD clearly works in the rules.

[gijoemike]

A monk with access to all books is still worse than any other class at the same level of optimization. Well, except NPC classes and Truenamer.
You're always behind what most other classes would achieve with a similar level of effort.

A monk can make certain concepts work though. I agree with you on the same amount of optimization has been performed a monk will not outperform any class. But if only a bit of optimization has occurred to a fighter or rogue a multi-classed monk can shine brightly with non standard abilities and make for an interesting and fun character to play.

Sadly wizard, sorc, cleric, and even bard with 1/2 applied optimization will out pace even the best designed monk. I really like monks too. I just play swordsage and fluff it back as a monk. Works much better.

[bean illus]

I was thinking archer/fighter, perhaps with the added ability to trip.

... .



Cleric ... indeed it would normally have been my first choice, ...



It seems as if, first you need to decide if you are going to choose your classes according to your other party members, or just build what you want.

Then, you may need to choose between cleric and sorcerer (most will advise to have some spells. I'll use cleric). If you can get healing, protection, and combat spheres, you're golden.
If not, you may want to check with the other party members, and see if one of them has that covered.

Then, if you're still considering an Archer Tripper, it's not that hard. (I wonder if you fully understand the limits of archery, and how to overcome them).
* You would need 3 archery feats, and 3 tripping feats, and possibly some salt and pepper.

Meanwhile, spells become less useful the later you get them. Benchmark for a fighter cleric is 4th level spells by about level 9-10.

Human is easiest. With three feats at first level a fighter can pick up either the entire core archery or tripping line.


Human: point blank shot
1 Fighter: precise shot, rapid shot
2 Fighter: combat reflexes
3 Fighter: combat expertise, improved trip
4 Cleric:
5 Cleric:
6 Cleric: feat


At level 13, a fighter 3/ cleric 10 would get 5th level spells, while a sorcerer 13 would get 6th level spells, or a cleric 13 just reach 7ths.

** Looking at your spell spheres, I see that healing might be open to a workaround. The heal domain supplies enough spells at the campaign level, that perhaps the heal sphere can be given up.


The protection sphere supplies lesser restoration, ... so these are the spells you'd be missing (scrolls? potions?). Many are 7ths, and would never be needed 12 level campaign, but would be sorely missed in a 15 level campaign.

Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.

Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.

Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.

Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.


Potions for three 1-3rd level spells, scrolls for two 4th level spells, and viola!
You're two levels away from the end of the campaign. You can buy those final spells in town, if you need them because someone happens to die at the beginning of 13th level, and you don't have a cleric 13 in the party.

Can you find a deity with the spheres protection and combat, then take the heal domain? Tell the DM that, and see if he falls for it.

* Get with the DM about the craft skill?
Fighter and cleric both have it.

By level 8-9 you'll easily make the dc 15 for crafting masterwork hammers and tools, that will then boost your armor crafting.

If you take craft Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation] as your 9th level feat, then you and your partners can team up to create and upgrade custom armor for your party. Your DM and your crew might love the idea, or hate it. Ask them.

[Elves]

Unless you can't get spells outside of Core if you're wizard, cleric, druid, bard, or paladin, because they're not on your PHB spell list, since that's your primary source?
Adding more options to an extant class feature =/= adding a new class feature. You'll realize it has to be this way because it doesn't make sense that, eg, some feat printed in a random other sourcebook could say "x class gets this as a bonus feat" and modify the class just because that feat was the primary source on itself.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

It's not a class feature, though. It's a feat that gives itself to everyone but the classes listed in the feat itself. It's kinda hard to misread.

[Elves]

A bonus feat is a class feature. The feat is primary text for itself but not for classes. It doesn't have jurisdiction over what bonus feats they do or don't receive. Another example, imagine Stunning Fist said monks could choose it as a bonus feat at 3rd level, but the class text said they could choose it at 1st level. The feat would be wrong. It's cut and dry.

By contrast, Martial Monk exploit for evading prereqs is skeevy as it's an obvious oversight, but is technically raw

[MaxiDuRaritry]

A bonus feat is a class feature. The feat is primary text for itself but not for classes. It doesn't have jurisdiction over what bonus feats they do or don't receive. Another example, imagine Stunning Fist said monks could choose it as a bonus feat at 3rd level, but the class text said they could choose it at 1st level. The feat would be wrong. It's cut and dry.There's a lot wrong with what you just said. Bonus feats are NOT class features, as they can also be granted by race, by magic items, by rituals, by magical locations, by money, by symbiotes, by grafts, by spells and powers, or even by other feats. If a feat such as Psicrystal Affinity can grant Alertness, I don't see why a feat can't grant itself if it explicitly says it can. Which Light Armor Proficiency does. Specific overrides general, and Light Armor Proficiency specifically grants itself to any class not otherwise barred from getting it. The others can take the feat manually if they want, but everyone else gets it automatically.

[Elves]

There's a lot wrong with what you just said. Bonus feats are NOT class features.
In this case they're being granted as class attributes. Precedent agrees -- many other PHB feats, like the monk and ranger ones, include a note of classes that gain them as bonus feats, while there's a severe dearth of self-granting feats there or elsewhere. I'd be interested if you could find another place where the feat is the only source for granting itself. (Which is different from a feat that grants another feat as part of or as a result of its effect, like Psicrystal.)

And again, would it make sense if in some random sourcebook you could have a feat that said "wizards automatically have this as a bonus feat"? Doesn't make structural sense, and it's weird legalese to claim that it is not being granted as a class bonus feat when it's taking levels in the class that grants you it.

The error here is obvious and we have the primary source rule exactly for that sort of error. As exploits go this one doesn't hold up.

[Mykerinos]

Many thanks everyone for the input and sorry for replying late.

I have some further information from my GM regarding the cleric option:

If I play a war deity, I can retain the d8 hit die and the ability to wear heavy armor.
To compensate for that benefit, I would be limited to 4 spheres with full access and 4 spheres with limited access (spell levels 0-3). If I give up the higher hit die and heavy armor, I get 6 full and 6 limited spheres. Which option makes more sense, in your opinion?

The campaign will start on Saturday. So I will have to make a decision soon.

Thanks for your help!

[illyahr]

I created a mod for fighters that I have had good feedback from. The vanguard gets some class-specific abilities and gets the Weapon Focus tree for free. It's in my sig, if you want to take a look.

[Anthrowhale]

If I play a war deity, I can retain the d8 hit die and the ability to wear heavy armor.
To compensate for that benefit, I would be limited to 4 spheres with full access and 4 spheres with limited access (spell levels 0-3). If I give up the higher hit die and heavy armor, I get 6 full and 6 limited spheres. Which option makes more sense, in your opinion?

It really depends on the party, but if the party needs a front-liner, 4 is plenty good. Something like {Healing, Combat, Protection, Summoning} would go a long ways. (Summoning is a back-door way to get access to many other spell effects.)

Other good spheres look like Animal, Astral, Divination, Elemental, Plant.

If on the other hand, the party needs a caster and has plenty of front-liners, then 6 seems fine as well.

[Gruftzwerg]

while I also think that core fighter is not the best choice, I'll still try to make the most of it as test. Lets see where we get:

Half-Ork
1: Combat Expertise; Improved Trip
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Dodge; Mobility
4: Spring Attack
5: Whirlwind Attack
6: Mounted Combat; Ride-by-Attack
7: Spirited Charge
8: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
9: Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
10: Power Attack
11: Improved Initiative
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
13: Blind-Fight
14: Quick Draw (to have a full-round action to charge in the first round when you haven't your weapon drawn out yet)
15: Improved Unarmed Strike; Stunning Fist
16: Improved Grapple (more as defense because the +4 bonus also counts when being grappled by others^^)
17: Deflect Arrows
18: Iron Will; Lightning Reflexes
19: Greater Fortitude
20: Diehard

As you can see, till lvl 12 we can get somewhat decent feats with going pure fighter.

The regular attack routine looks like this:
Mounted Charge + Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge or Trip + Whirlwind Attack (+Power Attack optional)
Note that "turning at the end of your movement" doesn't break the "line" Ride-by-Attack limits your movement to. This way you are prepared to face the enemies in the next round to charge again.

I would still suggest to to go for up to 8 lvls in Barbarian (maybe even more) instead of going straight 20 lvl of fighter. Other than that, I would say it looks like a decent PHB only build.

[Mykerinos]

It really depends on the party, but if the party needs a front-liner, 4 is plenty good. Something like {Healing, Combat, Protection, Summoning} would go a long ways. (Summoning is a back-door way to get access to many other spell effects.)

Other good spheres look like Animal, Astral, Divination, Elemental, Plant.

If on the other hand, the party needs a caster and has plenty of front-liners, then 6 seems fine as well.

The party currently consists of a fighter, a monk, a rouge and a sorcerer (illusion + another school yet unknown). So I guess both - front-liner and caster - are valid options. I like the war cleric option a bit better but haven't completely made up my mind yet.

My concern is the choice of domains I have if I go for war cleric. There is only one deity option for that, and its domains are mostly sub-par: Destruction, Fire, War, Evil. War is especially bad and moreover, has a considerable overlap with the combat sphere, which I would like to take. I can't get around War however to get the d8 hit die and heavy armor. The really useful domains of trickery, travel, luck etc. are not available unfortunately. If I play a war cleric, I would thus probably take War and Fire. For domains, I would follow your suggestions and take: Healing, Combat, Protection and Summoning. Animal, plant and Astral are great, too. But the former two are not availabe for my deity and the latter mostly has high level spells, which will probably only become available towards the very end of the campaign or not at all. I also have the choice of 4 partial spheres (only level 1 - 3 available). Here, I plan to pick Divination, Elemental, Charm and Weather. These domains seem to have solid L1-3 spells. The only spell on my wish list that I will not get like this is "Air walk", which in L4 Elemental.

As for attributes I am thinking:

Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wisdom 18
Charisma 8

Our GM gives us 75 points for distribution (min. 3, max. 18)

Race: Human

Which feats should I take at L1? I will get Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus from the War domain. Would Power Attack be a good choice - and perhaps Extend Spell?

Thanks for your help. It is much appreciated.

[Mykerinos]

while I also think that core fighter is not the best choice, I'll still try to make the most of it as test. Lets see where we get:

Half-Ork
1: Combat Expertise; Improved Trip
2: Combat Reflexes
3: Dodge; Mobility
4: Spring Attack
5: Whirlwind Attack
6: Mounted Combat; Ride-by-Attack
7: Spirited Charge
8: Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
9: Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Greater Weapon Focus (Spiked Chain)
10: Power Attack
11: Improved Initiative
12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Spiked Chain); Improved Critical (Spiked Chain)
13: Blind-Fight
14: Quick Draw (to have a full-round action to charge in the first round when you haven't your weapon drawn out yet)
15: Improved Unarmed Strike; Stunning Fist
16: Improved Grapple (more as defense because the +4 bonus also counts when being grappled by others^^)
17: Deflect Arrows
18: Iron Will; Lightning Reflexes
19: Greater Fortitude
20: Diehard

As you can see, till lvl 12 we can get somewhat decent feats with going pure fighter.

The regular attack routine looks like this:
Mounted Charge + Ride-by-Attack + Spirited Charge or Trip + Whirlwind Attack (+Power Attack optional)
Note that "turning at the end of your movement" doesn't break the "line" Ride-by-Attack limits your movement to. This way you are prepared to face the enemies in the next round to charge again.

I would still suggest to to go for up to 8 lvls in Barbarian (maybe even more) instead of going straight 20 lvl of fighter. Other than that, I would say it looks like a decent PHB only build.

Thank you - that sounds very good. If my further negotiations with the GM regarding the war cleric option fail, your suggestion will be my plan B.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Given the others, it's very clear the party will benefit from having a cleric, particularly at low levels.

That monk is sort of the deciding factor for front-liner-or-not. If you can buff the monk (monks are extra buffable), it could be good on the front line. Given the limited magic access though that may not be viable, leaving a front-liner cleric as desirable. Still, you might encourage the monk character to invest in pearls of power wherever possible in order to assist buffing.

War is a pretty good domain for the early-mid levels. Fire is kinda meh, but the others look no better.

For stats, I'd suggest reducing intelligence to 3. Since you get a minimum of one skill point/level and the human bonus skill point, you'll end up with 2 skill points/level instead of 3/level at Intelligence 10. You can use those extra 7 ability points to upgrade to Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14. Alternatively, you could dump Charisma, but that will nerf your Turn Undead more.

In terms of feats, Improved Initiative is a good general-purpose feat for both front-line combat and spellcasting. Power Attack doesn't really come online yet, so picking it later seems better. Extend Spell is in the same boat---those are good L3 and L6 choices. At level 1 for a combat cleric using PHB-only feats Combat Reflexes is pretty good. Use a two-handed reach weapon as primary. This could be a longspear, or perhaps a glaive. The combination of reach + two-handed weapon + strength + combat reflexes can do some serious damage when the party is swarmed by low-level enemies. Note that this even works when you lose initiative. Have a backup one-handed weapon+shield for close-in work when that's necessary and some ranged weapons as well.

[Mars Ultor]

Hi guys,

In our new campaign, the GM introduced some modifications in an attempt to balance the power level of the different classes better and make the game a bit more low fantasy. Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

Any thoughts or recommendations are highly appreciated!

Thank you.

Tell your DM about the E6 version (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.

[Troacctid]

I agree that War and Fire are the domains to go with. Nothing wrong with Fire domain—it's fine. Decent domain power, some good spells...you could do a lot worse. I like fire seeds.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Tell your DM about the E6 version (https://dungeons.fandom.com/wiki/E6_(3.5e_Sourcebook)) of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.I'd give all classes +2 skill points per level, and give fighters an extra +4 on top of that (instead of the +2 you recommended), as well as allow fighters to take any feat they qualify for using their bonus feats. That way, fighters are more than "I hit it with a stick." They're not exactly Int-oriented, after all. Otherwise, I definitely agree that it would work well in this situation.

[Mykerinos]

Tell your DM about the of D&D. It limits character advancement to 6th level and all the classes are somewhat able to contribute as magic hasn't got of hand yet.

He won't have to worry about eliminating classes, rewriting abilities, cultivating spell lists, and limiting books. The class still aren't completely balanced, but a 6th-level Fighter doesn't become useless and a 6th-level spell caster doesn't take over the game.

I've played E6 will two minor changes and it's been fine. I give Fighters two more skill points a level and I let any class take any skill without paying extra. That allows Fighters to contribute outside of combat and it allows the other classes to be more rounded.

Thank you! Will do.

[MR_Anderson]

Some big questions about this...


Also, we will only use the PHB for character creation etc. Moreover, wizards and druids are not permitted, and clerics and sorcerers have been nerfed.

- 1 extra fighter feat at EVERY level (instead of every two levels)
- free exotic weapon proficiency for all exotic weapons
- 4 instead of 2 skills points



Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
Can you take Prestige Classes?
If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
What alignment is most of the party?
Would going LG be a problem?

Sounds like Bards are the only caster not nerfed, but then again they are nerfed to begin with, but it could be an idea.

While a Feat every level is a bonus, as many have mentioned, it isn’t a great bonus at higher levels, but it can be if you Multi-Class as it gives you the extra Feat at 3rd and 5th that many specs can take advantage of.

Free Exotic Weapon Feats actually are a pretty huge thing as it frees up other feats.

The Bonus Skill Points is interesting, and could make the multi-classing easier for certain specs.


* Get with the DM about the craft skill?

...

If you take craft Craft Magic Arms And Armor [Item Creation] as your 9th level feat, then you and your partners can team up to create and upgrade custom armor for your party. Your DM and your crew might love the idea, or hate it. Ask them.

Your DM is clearly open to changing many game fundamentals, ask him if he would accept a change to skills to be trained or untrained as per the character instead of the class.

Explanation: If a Character has a non-class skill it is still a half ranks per skill point. If a character has any class that makes it a class skill, it is considered a class skill for all classes on that character. The one point of exception is if a Character spends skill points prior to it being a Class Skill they remain half ranks, but the character could still max out the skill equal to their character level +3.

This argument makes much sense when you present a point like why would a rogue that is sneaking and has an ultimate goal of being a Arcane Trickster lose certain skills, it is who they are as a character.

This gives a bonus to Multi-Classing when there are usually so many down sides.

Crafting Skill could allow you to craft new weapons. A new Longsword-like weapon that does 2d4 instead of 1d8, or a Greatsword-like weapon that does 3d4 instead of 2d6. Maybe increase Critical Threats. You can craft lots of new and exotic weapons that you have free feats for, you could even craft an Arquebus

Here’s the point, Spellcasters can create new spells with Spellcraft, why not new weapons for fighters, using Craft (Weaponsmith). Not many even try this, they just take what the game feeds them for equipment.


The party currently consists of a fighter, a monk, a rouge and a sorcerer (illusion + another school yet unknown). So I guess both - front-liner and caster - are valid options. I like the war cleric option a bit better but haven't completely made up my mind yet.

As for attributes I am thinking:

Strength 16
Dexterity 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wisdom 18
Charisma 8

Our GM gives us 75 points for distribution (min. 3, max. 18)

Race: Human


Humans get an initial feat, and they also get best advantage to Multi-Classing.

I don’t know how quickly you will advance, but I have a few builds based off of 3.0 PHB only.

Answer those questions, and I can give some more specifics.

[Mykerinos]

I agree that War and Fire are the domains to go with. Nothing wrong with Fire domain—it's fine. Decent domain power, some good spells...you could do a lot worse. I like fire seeds.

Thank you.

I spoke to my GM and asked him if I could take a different domain than War (which, in his modified system, is normally a requirement for retaining d8 hit die and heavy armor), since it overlaps with the Combat Sphere (see one of my initial posts for spell list). The only additional spells War grants beyond the ones in Combat Sphere are some words of power (which are pretty useless I read and which are probably too high level for our campaign anyways). He was agreeable to waiving the War domain requirement but insisted on me sticking to the deity's regular domain choices while I was aiming for Travel or Trickery :-D. The regular domains are Destruction, Fire, Evil and War. Out of these, you would recommend Fire and War, right? I can try to negotiate with my GM to perhaps allow the law domain. Would that be better than War or Fire in your opinion?

Thanks a lot!

[Mykerinos]

Given the others, it's very clear the party will benefit from having a cleric, particularly at low levels.

That monk is sort of the deciding factor for front-liner-or-not. If you can buff the monk (monks are extra buffable), it could be good on the front line. Given the limited magic access though that may not be viable, leaving a front-liner cleric as desirable. Still, you might encourage the monk character to invest in pearls of power wherever possible in order to assist buffing.

War is a pretty good domain for the early-mid levels. Fire is kinda meh, but the others look no better.

For stats, I'd suggest reducing intelligence to 3. Since you get a minimum of one skill point/level and the human bonus skill point, you'll end up with 2 skill points/level instead of 3/level at Intelligence 10. You can use those extra 7 ability points to upgrade to Strength 18, Dexterity 14, Constitution 14. Alternatively, you could dump Charisma, but that will nerf your Turn Undead more.

In terms of feats, Improved Initiative is a good general-purpose feat for both front-line combat and spellcasting. Power Attack doesn't really come online yet, so picking it later seems better. Extend Spell is in the same boat---those are good L3 and L6 choices. At level 1 for a combat cleric using PHB-only feats Combat Reflexes is pretty good. Use a two-handed reach weapon as primary. This could be a longspear, or perhaps a glaive. The combination of reach + two-handed weapon + strength + combat reflexes can do some serious damage when the party is swarmed by low-level enemies. Note that this even works when you lose initiative. Have a backup one-handed weapon+shield for close-in work when that's necessary and some ranged weapons as well.

Thank you very much for the suggestions.

I understand that it would be beneficial in terms of optimization to reduce INT or CHA to 3 but doing that would limit my ability to play the character the way I want. CHA 6 is my lower limit.

That said, I think I won't get DEX high enough to make good use of Combat Reflexes. And even if I had higher DEX, my heavy armor would invalidate Combat Reflexes, wouldn't it? Or maybe I misunderstood something.

Thank you for the feat recommendations. I will take improved initiative. Power attack and especially extend spell can wait, true.

Many thanks!

[Mykerinos]

Some big questions about this...




Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?
Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?
Can you take Prestige Classes?
If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?
Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?
What alignment is most of the party?
Would going LG be a problem?

Sounds like Bards are the only caster not nerfed, but then again they are nerfed to begin with, but it could be an idea.

While a Feat every level is a bonus, as many have mentioned, it isn’t a great bonus at higher levels, but it can be if you Multi-Class as it gives you the extra Feat at 3rd and 5th that many specs can take advantage of.

Free Exotic Weapon Feats actually are a pretty huge thing as it frees up other feats.

The Bonus Skill Points is interesting, and could make the multi-classing easier for certain specs.



Your DM is clearly open to changing many game fundamentals, ask him if he would accept a change to skills to be trained or untrained as per the character instead of the class.

Explanation: If a Character has a non-class skill it is still a half ranks per skill point. If a character has any class that makes it a class skill, it is considered a class skill for all classes on that character. The one point of exception is if a Character spends skill points prior to it being a Class Skill they remain half ranks, but the character could still max out the skill equal to their character level +3.

This argument makes much sense when you present a point like why would a rogue that is sneaking and has an ultimate goal of being a Arcane Trickster lose certain skills, it is who they are as a character.

This gives a bonus to Multi-Classing when there are usually so many down sides.

Crafting Skill could allow you to craft new weapons. A new Longsword-like weapon that does 2d4 instead of 1d8, or a Greatsword-like weapon that does 3d4 instead of 2d6. Maybe increase Critical Threats. You can craft lots of new and exotic weapons that you have free feats for, you could even craft an Arquebus

Here’s the point, Spellcasters can create new spells with Spellcraft, why not new weapons for fighters, using Craft (Weaponsmith). Not many even try this, they just take what the game feeds them for equipment.



Humans get an initial feat, and they also get best advantage to Multi-Classing.

I don’t know how quickly you will advance, but I have a few builds based off of 3.0 PHB only.

Answer those questions, and I can give some more specifics.

Thanks for your input. Here my answers:

1. 3.5
2. Yes
3. Only PHB - So, no.
4. No. Only PHB.
5. N/A
6. Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
7. Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.

Thanks for your help.

[bean illus]

Thanks for your input. Here my answers:

1. 3.5
2. Yes
3. Only PHB - So, no.
4. No. Only PHB.
5. N/A
6. Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
7. Yes, ... .

So, you can prc, but only 3.5 core. Correct?

Bro, ... go cleric, and make a fighter.
You may be right about not needing the war domain, with the combat sphere. Yes, the law domain power is nice.

[Anthrowhale]

That said, I think I won't get DEX high enough to make good use of Combat Reflexes. And even if I had higher DEX, my heavy armor would invalidate Combat Reflexes, wouldn't it? Or maybe I misunderstood something.

Combat Reflexes works in heavy armor. The only incompatibility between heavy armor and dexterity is with regards to armor class.

Dexterity 13 is the minimum for Combat reflexes. You could reduce Charisma to 6, Wisdom to 16, and then shift that extra point on Constitution over to Dexterity to get Dexterity 13 giving two AOOs/round. Not great, but still healthy.

[Mykerinos]

So, you can prc, but only 3.5 core. Correct?

Bro, ... go cleric, and make a fighter.
You may be right about not needing the war domain, with the combat sphere. Yes, the law domain power is nice.

Thanks for the input. I will ask the GM re the law domain.

Only PHB, not core. So no prestige classes.

[Troacctid]

Thank you.

I spoke to my GM and asked him if I could take a different domain than War (which, in his modified system, is normally a requirement for retaining d8 hit die and heavy armor), since it overlaps with the Combat Sphere (see one of my initial posts for spell list). The only additional spells War grants beyond the ones in Combat Sphere are some words of power (which are pretty useless I read and which are probably too high level for our campaign anyways). He was agreeable to waiving the War domain requirement but insisted on me sticking to the deity's regular domain choices while I was aiming for Travel or Trickery :-D. The regular domains are Destruction, Fire, Evil and War. Out of these, you would recommend Fire and War, right? I can try to negotiate with my GM to perhaps allow the law domain. Would that be better than War or Fire in your opinion?

Thanks a lot!
War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

[MR_Anderson]

Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?

Answer: 3.5
.
Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?

Answer: Yes
.
Can you take Prestige Classes?

Answer: No
.
If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?

N/A
.
Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?

Answer: No
.
What alignment is most of the party?

Answer: Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
.
Would going LG be a problem?

Answer: Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.



I know that you are leaning against LG because of caster level, but if you are not really a caster it doesn’t really impact you, right?

A LG character if played well has the ability to tie the CG character to the LE character better than a N character would, as the LG will understand the Drive of the CG, and the LE’s desire for order.

Going LG opens up options as a mainly Fighter/Melee class by grabbing levels in Paladin, as does just being Lawful for picking up a few Levels in Monk to help with protections.

Our Group plays mostly PHB only, so building off of it is something I’m used to, but we can access Prestige Classes. Unfortunately you are using 3.5, not 3.0 where you can really abuse Ranger as you level up.

I would recommend mostly DEX based melee characters, either Bow or Weapon Finesse build, maybe dual-wield, possibly a critical based build.

Thus your character Dips into lots of classes for all the good early abilities.


PALADIN
3 Paladin - Protections, Save Bonus, Laying on Hands
+1 Paladin - For 1st Level Spells (L. Restoration & Pro. Evil)
+1 Paladin - For Mount

NOTE: This dip is amazing for what it provides in 3 Levels, and an extra 2 levels don’t hurt a melee class if you can work in the mount. Once you end your leveling in this class you are done, so it is usually your first few levels, but you can also take it if all classes are level 2 or less. You can start with Rogue or another class for the Skill Points and then the next 3 in Paladin.


RANGER
2 Ranger - Basically Track and Combat Style Bonus Feat, but also Favorite Enemy.
+2 Ranger - For 1st Level Spells (Pass w/o Trace & Resist Energy) and Animal Companion

NOTE: Why not have two mounts if combined with 5 Levels of Paladin? Play a LG Female character and make the DM tell you that you can’t have both a Pegasus and a Unicorn!!! LOL


MONK
2 Monk - 2x Bonus Feats, Saves, Evasion, AC Bonus
+1 Monk - +10 to base movement
+1 Monk - Last +1 to all saves, 1d8 Unarmed, Ki (Magic) strike.

NOTE: Monk is really just dipped for the Wisdom AC Bonus to wear no armor, but the Saves, early Evasion, and extra base movement are bonus. I’ve never done more than two levels, but I would never justify more than 4. This is another class that once you stop leveling, you’re done so these two levels need to be planned.


ROGUE
2 Rogue - +1d6 SA and Evasion
+1 Rogue - +1d6 SA
+1 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge

NOTE: Rogue is a Skill Point filler class, so a Level here and there can catch skill ranks back to max. Also, some DM’s allow Evasion to stack with previous earned Evasion Abilities to become Improved Evasion much like Uncanny Dodge becoming Improved Uncanny Dodge. Up to 4 Levels, unless you are doing a build for SA then maybe 7 or 8 Levels.


CLERIC
3 Cleric - For 2nd Level Spells (Basically only Silence, but also Shield Other and Buffs), Travel Domain Special Ability, and Trickery Domain Invisibility Spell.
+2 Cleric - To Meet Caster Level Requirement for Craft Magical Arms & Weapons, and Fly Spell from Travel Domain

NOTE: Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting or Faerie Fire (in Weather Sphere) is another Combat advantage other than Silencing a caster in your proximity.


FIGHTER
4 Fighter - Weapon Specialization and Bonus Feats

NOTE: The free exotic weapons and extra bonus feats aren’t worth going straight Fighter. 4 Levels pretty much gets the best out of this.


Depending on what your play styles are, You could take some or even all. Obviously, Human is the best race for this.

Some interesting builds; 1st is like one of my cohorts who is dual wielding crit machine.

3 Paladin
2 Monk
2 Fighter
2 Rogue
3 Cleric
1 Rogue
7 Fighter

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC and Attacks
8 CON - Don’t get hit
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - Street Smarts
18 CHA - Diplomacy and stuff

- Keep increasing Dexterity for AC, Attack bonus, Reflex Save, or...
- Keep increasing Wisdom for AC, Bonus Spells, Will Save, or...
- Keep increasing Charisma for Diplomacy, All Save Bonus, and Laying on Hands

Diplomacy is the alternate win as Paladin, Monk, Cleric, and Rogue all have Diplomacy

Paladin gets you +2 synergy bonus with 5 Ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)

All others have Sense Motive for another +2 synergy bonus.

Rogue and Cleric (Trickery Domain) get you the last +2 synergy bonus with Bluff.

Take Skill Focus for +3 and your Diplomacy modifier is into the +20’s by 10th Level.

Leveling up you will get at least 2 Skill points at each level. 1 for the Class and 1 for being Human.

You either Bow spec or Dual-Wield with Weapon Finesse using weapons built for Critical Hits like Kukris of Burst’ing or dual wield a pair of Rapiers of Punctuating (Intended Pun for making a point.).

You don’t wear armor so you can save money and place it on other things that are easily hidden, but take 5 Ranks in Tumble for when you need to boost that AC by +3/+6 instead of the +2/+4 for fighting defensively or full round defensive movement. You’ll quickly never want armor again.

You still can wear armor, you just lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, which leads to the next build.

5 Paladin - Get that Mount
2 Fighter
3 Cleric
2 Fighter
2 Cleric - All the way to 5th for Crafting
6 Fighter

STATS
18 STR - Swing Away with Armor
8 DEX - Armor tank
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
14 WIS - Level 3 Spells and 2 Bonus Spells
18 CHA - Shift to CON as wanted.

With this, you lose the freedom of no armor.

Still not really a caster

5 Paladin
2 Ranger
3 Fighter
2 Ranger
1 Fighter
7 Ranger

17 STR - Pick a stat to make this 18
10 DEX - You wear armor
12 CON - +1
5 INT - Not smart
13 WIS - 3rd Level Spells
18 CHA - Saves and Laying on Hands

This is build has no xp penalty, but if you were willing to take an xp penalty while leveling, you could end up with a Dex based melee and a no armor build.

5 Paladin / 2 Monk / 4 Fighter / 9 Ranger

This really isn’t great, but it does give you Paladin Mount with Animal Companion, and no armor.

You could drop Weapon Specialization and just go...

5 Paladin / 4 Monk / 11 Ranger

It could be done with only having 1 single level of xp penalized if you start with 2 Levels of Ranger.


I once built a Gimped Cleric that didn’t access the higher spells, because I didn’t make it to 20, but was better protected and played like a cloth priest instead of an armored cleric.
1 Monk
2 Paladin
17 Cleric

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
14 CHA - Saves and Diplomacy

This is clearly inferior to a straight Cleric build as far as casting, but as you increase Wisdom and dump gold into buffing that stat your AC and Spell ability improves. You could even drop Paladin and just take one level in Monk.

If I did that, I would have done 1 Monk / 19 Cleric with your 75 points of stats like...

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC, Sling Mastery
18 CON - +4 Amazing!
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
8 CHA - Not the life of the party.

People will point out that Armor with Enchantments and a Shield with Enchantments are far superior than this, but when you realize that you need to have armor and shield with bonuses, and then buff your Wisdom separately.

You start with AC 18 at level 1 against touch attacks.

When you spend your earnings, you can purchase bonuses to stats, and you can be a better caster, then you can be a crafter and place Magic Vestments on your clothes for Armor without losing the Monk Bonus.

It isn’t that bad of a difference, but if you ever need to adventure not having armor such as being held captive or being allowed near a high value target it helps.


As for playing a caster where good gods have been lessened, that is something I didn’t ask about.

Not sure what LG gods you have, but I’d make an argument for:

The unknown god
Domains: Good, Healing, Travel, & Trickery
Spheres: All
Guardian
Healing
Protection (Partial - Level 0-3)
Sun (Partial - Level 0-3)
Weather (Partial - Level 0-3)

Ask to add the following spells to Guardian:
Alarm & Hold Portal (1st)
Phantom Trap & Web (2nd)
Explosive Runes (3rd)
Fire Trap & Illusionary Wall (4th)
Mage’s Private Sanctum (5th)
Guards and Wards (6th)
Reverse Gravity (7th)
Dimensional Lock (8th)

Some are Wizard spells, but why Silence is in that sphere I’ll have no Idea, it makes more sense in the Protection sphere, but the Guardian sphere looks like an afterthought of spells that don’t fit other spheres. It needs filled, and what better than to fill it with Wizard spells that match the motif of Guarding a location.

While Travel could be any alignment; clearly Trickery isn’t usually a LG domain, but here is how you make your case...

He has the domain through being wiser than the other gods His actions and plans seem to trick all who seek Him and his followers harm, including other gods. It is through this well intentioned means and not nefarious means that he has gained the Trickery.

A little unknown fact is that the original 3 Little Pigs story had the wolf eating the first two pigs, then the wolf who couldn’t break the protection of the strong brick house tried to trick the 3rd Pig into a trap multiple times but the Pig was wise and did not fall into the trap, despite Traveling outside of the brick home. Instead he outsmarted the wolf on each attempt, leading the wolf to become furious and enraged. No longer thinking straight, the wolf fell into the Pig’s trap and was eaten by the Pig.

Your god is the same teachings from the story of the three little pigs. I’d argue Protection as not a partial, but it is moot for your character if you go with the melee versions, also it could be an issue if you take Leadership and your Cohort is a 100% full Cleric.


I know this was a lot, so hopefully it gives you ideas.

[bean illus]

War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

I stand corrected. Thank you.

The Law Devotion [Domain] feat however, does grant a swift +3 sacred bonus. Then the question becomes, do you want a +1 against opponents you're already beating, or a +3 when you really need it.

[Troacctid]

I stand corrected. Thank you.

The Law Devotion [Domain] feat however, does grant a swift +3 sacred bonus. Then the question becomes, do you want a +1 against opponents you're already beating, or a +3 when you really need it.
What Law Devotion feat? I don't see it in the allowed sources.

[bean illus]

What Law Devotion feat? I don't see it in the allowed sources.

I'll assume that you're teasing me, and that you know exactly which "Law Devotion" feat (I've been informed that, on this site, teasing is bad form).

However, you are correct, that i have slipped from confusing law domain with law devotion, to forgetting the limit on allowed sources.

[SpicyBoi_Nezu]

I'm just gonna throw in this build, just because there are some interesting exotic weapons, that's all

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?88633-Haberdash-the-Masked-The-3-5-Kitchen-Sink

Haberdash the Masked - Got Proficiency in all Exotic weapons

[Maat Mons]

Looks like I'm really late to this thread.

I'll echo others on several points. There aren't enough good feats in core to justify taking very many Fighter levels. Cleric and Sorcerer are still viable with these changes.

I wouldn't worry about that whole "quests from your deity" thing with Clerics. Playing D&D, you're going to be going on quests. What does it matter if the DM gives them to you via your deity instead of some old man in a tavern?

Now let me express and opinion that might raise some eyebrows: your DM's nerfs to spellcasters encourage more people to play spellcasters.

That probably sounds pretty counter-intuitive, but hear me out. The game assumes you have access to various magical effects. Various monsters and other challenges kind of necessitate certain spells. In a standard game, a party with a Cleric and a Wizard can cover all those bases. That leaves everyone else free to play whatever they want, and when magic is necessary, the Cleric and Wizard have it handled.

But with these houserules, each spellcaster has a more limited scope. That means you need more spellcasters to ensure all your bases are covered. I mean, you don't want to encounter an incorporeal creature, and not have a single party member that can effect incorporeal creatures (or whatever), now do you?

Not only do these changes necessitate an all-caster party, they also facilitate it. What I mean is, Cleric + Druid + Sorcerer + Wizard was already a great party under the normal rules, but a lot of people wouldn't like to play that way because there's so much overlap in what everyone can do. People want to feel unique. But since no one caster can do everything with these nerfs, you can now have an all-caster party with each character still bringing something to the table that none of the others had access to.

So this attempt at reducing the prevalence of magic in the game encourages more use of magic. There's no use in fighting it. Embrace the magical elements of fantasy. Without them it wouldn't really be fantasy anyway.

[Mykerinos]

Are you using 3.0 or 3.5 PHB?

Answer: 3.5
.
Are you going to be allowed to Multi-Class?

Answer: Yes
.
Can you take Prestige Classes?

Answer: No
.
If so, are Prestige Classes limited to the DMG? 3.0 or 3.5?

N/A
.
Can you take Feats from other books that are not your Fighter Bonus Feats?

Answer: No
.
What alignment is most of the party?

Answer: Party average is Lawful Neutral (ranges from Chotic Good to Lawful Evil). I am considering Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral.
.
Would going LG be a problem?

Answer: Yes, because in the GMs world, the good and neutral deities have lost power which means that clerics of good and neutral deities suffer a caster level Malus and suffer a caster level Malus.



I know that you are leaning against LG because of caster level, but if you are not really a caster it doesn’t really impact you, right?

A LG character if played well has the ability to tie the CG character to the LE character better than a N character would, as the LG will understand the Drive of the CG, and the LE’s desire for order.

Going LG opens up options as a mainly Fighter/Melee class by grabbing levels in Paladin, as does just being Lawful for picking up a few Levels in Monk to help with protections.

Our Group plays mostly PHB only, so building off of it is something I’m used to, but we can access Prestige Classes. Unfortunately you are using 3.5, not 3.0 where you can really abuse Ranger as you level up.

I would recommend mostly DEX based melee characters, either Bow or Weapon Finesse build, maybe dual-wield, possibly a critical based build.

Thus your character Dips into lots of classes for all the good early abilities.


PALADIN
3 Paladin - Protections, Save Bonus, Laying on Hands
+1 Paladin - For 1st Level Spells (L. Restoration & Pro. Evil)
+1 Paladin - For Mount

NOTE: This dip is amazing for what it provides in 3 Levels, and an extra 2 levels don’t hurt a melee class if you can work in the mount. Once you end your leveling in this class you are done, so it is usually your first few levels, but you can also take it if all classes are level 2 or less. You can start with Rogue or another class for the Skill Points and then the next 3 in Paladin.


RANGER
2 Ranger - Basically Track and Combat Style Bonus Feat, but also Favorite Enemy.
+2 Ranger - For 1st Level Spells (Pass w/o Trace & Resist Energy) and Animal Companion

NOTE: Why not have two mounts if combined with 5 Levels of Paladin? Play a LG Female character and make the DM tell you that you can’t have both a Pegasus and a Unicorn!!! LOL


MONK
2 Monk - 2x Bonus Feats, Saves, Evasion, AC Bonus
+1 Monk - +10 to base movement
+1 Monk - Last +1 to all saves, 1d8 Unarmed, Ki (Magic) strike.

NOTE: Monk is really just dipped for the Wisdom AC Bonus to wear no armor, but the Saves, early Evasion, and extra base movement are bonus. I’ve never done more than two levels, but I would never justify more than 4. This is another class that once you stop leveling, you’re done so these two levels need to be planned.


ROGUE
2 Rogue - +1d6 SA and Evasion
+1 Rogue - +1d6 SA
+1 Rogue - Uncanny Dodge

NOTE: Rogue is a Skill Point filler class, so a Level here and there can catch skill ranks back to max. Also, some DM’s allow Evasion to stack with previous earned Evasion Abilities to become Improved Evasion much like Uncanny Dodge becoming Improved Uncanny Dodge. Up to 4 Levels, unless you are doing a build for SA then maybe 7 or 8 Levels.


CLERIC
3 Cleric - For 2nd Level Spells (Basically only Silence, but also Shield Other and Buffs), Travel Domain Special Ability, and Trickery Domain Invisibility Spell.
+2 Cleric - To Meet Caster Level Requirement for Craft Magical Arms & Weapons, and Fly Spell from Travel Domain

NOTE: Obscuring Mist/Fog Cloud with Blind Fighting or Faerie Fire (in Weather Sphere) is another Combat advantage other than Silencing a caster in your proximity.


FIGHTER
4 Fighter - Weapon Specialization and Bonus Feats

NOTE: The free exotic weapons and extra bonus feats aren’t worth going straight Fighter. 4 Levels pretty much gets the best out of this.


Depending on what your play styles are, You could take some or even all. Obviously, Human is the best race for this.

Some interesting builds; 1st is like one of my cohorts who is dual wielding crit machine.

3 Paladin
2 Monk
2 Fighter
2 Rogue
3 Cleric
1 Rogue
7 Fighter

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC and Attacks
8 CON - Don’t get hit
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - Street Smarts
18 CHA - Diplomacy and stuff

- Keep increasing Dexterity for AC, Attack bonus, Reflex Save, or...
- Keep increasing Wisdom for AC, Bonus Spells, Will Save, or...
- Keep increasing Charisma for Diplomacy, All Save Bonus, and Laying on Hands

Diplomacy is the alternate win as Paladin, Monk, Cleric, and Rogue all have Diplomacy

Paladin gets you +2 synergy bonus with 5 Ranks in Knowledge (Nobility & Royalty)

All others have Sense Motive for another +2 synergy bonus.

Rogue and Cleric (Trickery Domain) get you the last +2 synergy bonus with Bluff.

Take Skill Focus for +3 and your Diplomacy modifier is into the +20’s by 10th Level.

Leveling up you will get at least 2 Skill points at each level. 1 for the Class and 1 for being Human.

You either Bow spec or Dual-Wield with Weapon Finesse using weapons built for Critical Hits like Kukris of Burst’ing or dual wield a pair of Rapiers of Punctuating (Intended Pun for making a point.).

You don’t wear armor so you can save money and place it on other things that are easily hidden, but take 5 Ranks in Tumble for when you need to boost that AC by +3/+6 instead of the +2/+4 for fighting defensively or full round defensive movement. You’ll quickly never want armor again.

You still can wear armor, you just lose the Wisdom bonus to AC, which leads to the next build.

5 Paladin - Get that Mount
2 Fighter
3 Cleric
2 Fighter
2 Cleric - All the way to 5th for Crafting
6 Fighter

STATS
18 STR - Swing Away with Armor
8 DEX - Armor tank
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
14 WIS - Level 3 Spells and 2 Bonus Spells
18 CHA - Shift to CON as wanted.

With this, you lose the freedom of no armor.

Still not really a caster

5 Paladin
2 Ranger
3 Fighter
2 Ranger
1 Fighter
7 Ranger

17 STR - Pick a stat to make this 18
10 DEX - You wear armor
12 CON - +1
5 INT - Not smart
13 WIS - 3rd Level Spells
18 CHA - Saves and Laying on Hands

This is build has no xp penalty, but if you were willing to take an xp penalty while leveling, you could end up with a Dex based melee and a no armor build.

5 Paladin / 2 Monk / 4 Fighter / 9 Ranger

This really isn’t great, but it does give you Paladin Mount with Animal Companion, and no armor.

You could drop Weapon Specialization and just go...

5 Paladin / 4 Monk / 11 Ranger

It could be done with only having 1 single level of xp penalized if you start with 2 Levels of Ranger.


I once built a Gimped Cleric that didn’t access the higher spells, because I didn’t make it to 20, but was better protected and played like a cloth priest instead of an armored cleric.
1 Monk
2 Paladin
17 Cleric

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC
12 CON - +1 wow
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
14 CHA - Saves and Diplomacy

This is clearly inferior to a straight Cleric build as far as casting, but as you increase Wisdom and dump gold into buffing that stat your AC and Spell ability improves. You could even drop Paladin and just take one level in Monk.

If I did that, I would have done 1 Monk / 19 Cleric with your 75 points of stats like...

8 STR - No Armor to carry
18 DEX - AC, Sling Mastery
18 CON - +4 Amazing!
5 INT - Not smart
18 WIS - AC and Spells
8 CHA - Not the life of the party.

People will point out that Armor with Enchantments and a Shield with Enchantments are far superior than this, but when you realize that you need to have armor and shield with bonuses, and then buff your Wisdom separately.

You start with AC 18 at level 1 against touch attacks.

When you spend your earnings, you can purchase bonuses to stats, and you can be a better caster, then you can be a crafter and place Magic Vestments on your clothes for Armor without losing the Monk Bonus.

It isn’t that bad of a difference, but if you ever need to adventure not having armor such as being held captive or being allowed near a high value target it helps.


As for playing a caster where good gods have been lessened, that is something I didn’t ask about.

Not sure what LG gods you have, but I’d make an argument for:

The unknown god
Domains: Good, Healing, Travel, & Trickery
Spheres: All
Guardian
Healing
Protection (Partial - Level 0-3)
Sun (Partial - Level 0-3)
Weather (Partial - Level 0-3)

Ask to add the following spells to Guardian:
Alarm & Hold Portal (1st)
Phantom Trap & Web (2nd)
Explosive Runes (3rd)
Fire Trap & Illusionary Wall (4th)
Mage’s Private Sanctum (5th)
Guards and Wards (6th)
Reverse Gravity (7th)
Dimensional Lock (8th)

Some are Wizard spells, but why Silence is in that sphere I’ll have no Idea, it makes more sense in the Protection sphere, but the Guardian sphere looks like an afterthought of spells that don’t fit other spheres. It needs filled, and what better than to fill it with Wizard spells that match the motif of Guarding a location.

While Travel could be any alignment; clearly Trickery isn’t usually a LG domain, but here is how you make your case...

He has the domain through being wiser than the other gods His actions and plans seem to trick all who seek Him and his followers harm, including other gods. It is through this well intentioned means and not nefarious means that he has gained the Trickery.

A little unknown fact is that the original 3 Little Pigs story had the wolf eating the first two pigs, then the wolf who couldn’t break the protection of the strong brick house tried to trick the 3rd Pig into a trap multiple times but the Pig was wise and did not fall into the trap, despite Traveling outside of the brick home. Instead he outsmarted the wolf on each attempt, leading the wolf to become furious and enraged. No longer thinking straight, the wolf fell into the Pig’s trap and was eaten by the Pig.

Your god is the same teachings from the story of the three little pigs. I’d argue Protection as not a partial, but it is moot for your character if you go with the melee versions, also it could be an issue if you take Leadership and your Cohort is a 100% full Cleric.


I know this was a lot, so hopefully it gives you ideas.

Thanks a lot for this great amount of information. I understand your arguments for multiclassing. If I hadn't already decided to go full cleric, I would definitely consider your suggestions. If my cleric should meet and untimely end, I will come back here and try one of the options you recommended.

As for Paladin - there are none in my GM's world. The good Gods are all but dead.

Thanks again for your input - it's greatly appreciated.

[Mykerinos]

Looks like I'm really late to this thread.

I'll echo others on several points. There aren't enough good feats in core to justify taking very many Fighter levels. Cleric and Sorcerer are still viable with these changes.

I wouldn't worry about that whole "quests from your deity" thing with Clerics. Playing D&D, you're going to be going on quests. What does it matter if the DM gives them to you via your deity instead of some old man in a tavern?

Now let me express and opinion that might raise some eyebrows: your DM's nerfs to spellcasters encourage more people to play spellcasters.

That probably sounds pretty counter-intuitive, but hear me out. The game assumes you have access to various magical effects. Various monsters and other challenges kind of necessitate certain spells. In a standard game, a party with a Cleric and a Wizard can cover all those bases. That leaves everyone else free to play whatever they want, and when magic is necessary, the Cleric and Wizard have it handled.

But with these houserules, each spellcaster has a more limited scope. That means you need more spellcasters to ensure all your bases are covered. I mean, you don't want to encounter an incorporeal creature, and not have a single party member that can effect incorporeal creatures (or whatever), now do you?

Not only do these changes necessitate an all-caster party, they also facilitate it. What I mean is, Cleric + Druid + Sorcerer + Wizard was already a great party under the normal rules, but a lot of people wouldn't like to play that way because there's so much overlap in what everyone can do. People want to feel unique. But since no one caster can do everything with these nerfs, you can now have an all-caster party with each character still bringing something to the table that none of the others had access to.

So this attempt at reducing the prevalence of magic in the game encourages more use of magic. There's no use in fighting it. Embrace the magical elements of fantasy. Without them it wouldn't really be fantasy anyway.

The group will have a fighter, a monk, a rouge, a sorcerer and a cleric. So, no more magic users than usual. But yes, I understand what you are saying. To cover the same scope of abilities one magic user could cover in a conventional D&D scenario, we would now need 3 or so. That's a good think, I feel. It's a bit boring if everyone is a superhero who doesn't need to rely on teamwork.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts!

[Mykerinos]

War would still be better than Law, IMO, because it has a better domain granted ability with the Weapon Focus.

Yes, I believe you are right. I need those two feats War domain grants. Just a pity that there is such a broad spell overlap between war domain and combat sphere.

What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?

Many thanks for your help!

[Troacctid]

Yes, I believe you are right. I need those two feats War domain grants. Just a pity that there is such a broad spell overlap between war domain and combat sphere.
Well, let's look at your domain slots.
1. Burning hands or magic weapon. Both kind of so-so, but I'd probably pick burning hands more often.
2. Produce flame or spiritual weapon. You'll pick spiritual weapon 100% of the time here because it's just better.
3. Resist energy (fire or cold) or magic vestment. Both good, most likely you'll pick magic vestment more often, but you're happy with either.
4. Wall of fire or divine power. I would almost always pick the wall here, it's just a fantastic spell.
5. Fire shield or flame strike. This one is an easy flame strike, I think.
6. Fire seeds or blade barrier. Both solid blasting spells, but the damage on those holly berries is so absurd that I think it's hard to turn down.
7. Fire storm or power word blind. This slot is more of a 50/50, I think. They're both good against different types of encounters.
8. Incendiary cloud vs. power word stun. Basically the same as 7.
9. Elemental swarm (fire) or power word kill. They both kinda suck, so who cares, do whatever.

So if we look at the spells that are in the Combat sphere, they're at the level 1, 2, 4, and 5 slots. For 1 and 4, I think you actively prefer to have the fire spell in your domain slot, so if you want to cast those spells, it's good to have access to them in normal slots. And for 2 and 5, they're both spells that you're fairly happy to have in multiples because they stack well with themselves. I don't think the overlap is a problem. I think if you want the combat sphere, this particular combination of domains does not make it less viable. Whether you want the combat sphere is an open question—without an easy way to quicken or persist your buff spells, is it even worth taking a round off to buff yourself, compared to just blasting them in the face with fire? I'd be more inclined to take it as a partial sphere, to be honest. Get those ability enhancer spells for when you eventually take Craft Wondrous Item, maybe you'll prepare prayer or spiritual weapon and cast them sometimes, and at high levels, you can put a quickened divine favor in a 5th-level slot.


What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?
Unless your DM has houserules nerfing them, I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. I don't think you need more than the 12 Dex to max out your AC in full plate. Yeah, Combat Reflexes, but you won't be making more than two AoOs in a round all that often. Did we find out what the favored weapon for your deity is? I tend to like to play toward that—for example, if they favor the guisarme or heavy flail, then yeah, Improved Trip, and maybe even Improved Disarm too, if there's space. If they favor the short sword or kukri, then maybe Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Critical are more in the cards. If they favor the greatsword or greataxe, we might be more in Power Attack and Cleave territory.

Regardless of combat style, Improved Initiative is always going to be fine, and I'd say it is a good filler feat if you don't have anything better to put in that slot. It does its best work if you're doing things like blasting or battlefield control and you can take enemies out of the fight before they can do anything useful. But it's also never going to be important to a build the way some other feats are, so you'll often see it get bumped.

So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

[bean illus]

What are your thought on feats. Improved initiative and combat reflexes have been suggested. Would you agree with those choices?

Also, do you think going for high DEX (trip and reach) makes sense for a combat cleric? Which attribute distribution would you recommend?


Well, ...
..., I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. ...

So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

I agree with the advice on spell casting and stats. But, you will have to make a final decision on either full caster, or beefed up fighter.

Tripping needs BAB, Str, size, 3+ feats, magic, and Dex. Being short on any 2 of those, and you shoulda put your resources elsewhere.
As cleric BAB falls behind you'll want to cast divine power. And you'll need your Str as high as you can afford.

Maybe just skip tripping, but maybe just build the tripper.

Human fighter 1 / cleric 19
16 12 14 - 14 14 8
... or ...
16 12 12 - 14 15 8

H Combat Expertise
1 Improved Trip
F Improved Initiative
3 Combat Reflexes or Power Attack
6 Craft Wondrous Item or Power Attack
9 Extend Spell
12 Quicken Spell

I think that might trip until upper mid levels (and trips at 1st level). Take advantage of EWP, and get a spiked chain for reach, and a heavy flail for bludgeoning. You're praying for access to Enlarge Person, even if only in potions for the BossEvilGuy.
You also get Quicken asap for Divine Favor.

Edit: Strike through, due to being corrected below.

[Troacctid]

I agree with the advice on spell casting and stats. But, you will have to make a final decision on either full caster, or beefed up fighter.
I disagree. I think you can easily gear yourself towards fighting early on and then transition to more of a casting focus later.

Tripping also doesn't care nearly as much about BAB as grappling or disarming. All you have to do is hit with a melee touch attack, and then BAB doesn't factor at all into the opposed check. Sure, multiple attacks on a full attack are nice, but they're not important to the strategy.

[bean illus]

I disagree. I think you can easily gear yourself towards fighting early on and then transition to more of a casting focus later.

Tripping also doesn't care nearly as much about BAB as grappling or disarming. All you have to do is hit with a melee touch attack, and then BAB doesn't factor at all into the opposed check. Sure, multiple attacks on a full attack are nice, but they're not important to the strategy.

Sure, there's always your idea. Sorta like the (almost) perfect middle. Call it what you'd like.

But there are minor adjustments in allocation of build resource between the polarities (imo). I just gave an example. I mention it partly because Mykerinos started the thread asking about fighter.

And a tripper without decent BAB does what when tripping doesn't work? Luckily, divine power exists. Sure, it's not always needed, but by 9th level a straight cleric is 3 BAB behind. If your confident of hitting, then power attack.

But I'm sure I'm wrong. I always am. I'm frankly embarrassed every time i write on this forum, and constantly debate with myself whether i should never post here again.

It's kinda pitiful that i think that every day for a decade.

Edit: strike through, due to corrections below.

[Troacctid]

And a tripper without decent BAB does what when tripping doesn't work?
I mean...spells, yeah? That's one of the biggest advantages of being a gish: you can beat people with a stick almost as well as the dedicated beatsticks, but you also just have all this really powerful magic there in your back pocket when you need it. Get a spell-storing weapon in there and you can even combine the two in a single action.

[bean illus]

I mean...spells, yeah? That's one of the biggest advantages of being a gish: you can beat people with a stick almost as well as the dedicated beatsticks, but you also just have all this really powerful magic there in your back pocket when you need it. Get a spell-storing weapon in there and you can even combine the two in a single action.

I ...
... nevermind. I truly apologize.

Why do i come here? I always feel stupid.

What can i say? You're 100% right, and everything i wrote is totally without any merit, or sense.
Maybe my embarrassment will save some other fool the temptation to speak.

[MR_Anderson]

Thanks a lot for this great amount of information. I understand your arguments for multiclassing. If I hadn't already decided to go full cleric, I would definitely consider your suggestions. If my cleric should meet and untimely end, I will come back here and try one of the options you recommended.

As for Paladin - there are none in my GM's world. The good Gods are all but dead.

Thanks again for your input - it's greatly appreciated.

Absolutely, I kind of realized it was a mini primer that could even be its own thread on how to best multi-class with only the PHB.about 1/2 way through.

I am just glad that it was appreciated.

Now, you say that the good Gods are all but dead do ya?

Well they are either dead or they are lacking in fulfilling their duties right. Usually God have rolls that they must fulfill with an higher God over everything like AO in some worlds.

Of course this is a custom world, but if you do play a LG character, I’d might recommend this back story...

We’ll call him Luke.

Luke starts off on his path of trying to be a beacon of goodness (Paladin) and through his research or paths crosses with an ex-paladin he learns that the good Gods are dead and don’t answer or give powers anymore. This causes Luke to go into depression.

He is crushed as he thought he could have done something good for the world, but now he can’t. This leads him to fall, becoming a brawler (Fighter) and thief (Rogue) for a time, before taking time to reflect on how far he has fallen.

Or...

He decides to take some time and reflect on the purpose of life and who he is. He crosses paths with a traveling monk and it prompts him in a new direction in life. It is short lived, but during his time he’s learned why he had power as a Paladin. His soul was the beacon giving him the powers of a Paladin.

Luke sets out with this bravado that he’s on a mission. If the good gods aren’t dead he’s going to find them, but if they are...

...He’s going to replace them, because someone needs to do something.

Luke not knowing that he has placed himself on a collision course with the evil gods, and will soon find out that his destiny to restore goodness to the world will also lead to more order and balance for once. It will not be an easy path to walk.

As he gains followers (Leadership) and even a dedicated Priest (Cohort) who seemingly can work more and more miracles with their followers. He realizes all the power of the souls seeking the same goodness is starting to break the hold darkness has on the world.

Finally the day comes when evil has had enough and rallies their forces.

Is Luke victorious rising himself to godhood, or does he die a martyr’s death having laid the foundation for training 100’s of Beacon Knights and Priests (1-4 Levels of Monk and the rest Paladin or Cleric) so that many will carry on the fight?

Find out next time...

I love challenges, I’d probably talk to the DM and find out if there is a hope of changing things, or if it is a waste and he won’t let something like that happen.

[Mykerinos]

[QUOTE=Troacctid;24894564]Well, let's look at your domain slots.
1. Burning hands or magic weapon. Both kind of so-so, but I'd probably pick burning hands more often.
2. Produce flame or spiritual weapon. You'll pick spiritual weapon 100% of the time here because it's just better.
3. Resist energy (fire or cold) or magic vestment. Both good, most likely you'll pick magic vestment more often, but you're happy with either.
4. Wall of fire or divine power. I would almost always pick the wall here, it's just a fantastic spell.
5. Fire shield or flame strike. This one is an easy flame strike, I think.
6. Fire seeds or blade barrier. Both solid blasting spells, but the damage on those holly berries is so absurd that I think it's hard to turn down.
7. Fire storm or power word blind. This slot is more of a 50/50, I think. They're both good against different types of encounters.
8. Incendiary cloud vs. power word stun. Basically the same as 7.
9. Elemental swarm (fire) or power word kill. They both kinda suck, so who cares, do whatever.

So if we look at the spells that are in the Combat sphere, they're at the level 1, 2, 4, and 5 slots. For 1 and 4, I think you actively prefer to have the fire spell in your domain slot, so if you want to cast those spells, it's good to have access to them in normal slots. And for 2 and 5, they're both spells that you're fairly happy to have in multiples because they stack well with themselves. I don't think the overlap is a problem. I think if you want the combat sphere, this particular combination of domains does not make it less viable.

Okay, true - considering that, the impact on spell variety is really limited.


Whether you want the combat sphere is an open question—without an easy way to quicken or persist your buff spells, is it even worth taking a round off to buff yourself, compared to just blasting them in the face with fire?

What exactly do you mean by "without an easy way to quicken or persist"? Quicken and persist remain options for later on, right? Or do you think that's unrealistic to achieve with a combat cleric because of the required melee feats?
And how about divine metamagic - is that an option to help power the metamagic feats or would it require a lot more CHA etc. for more turn attempts to work properly? I know there are also ways to abuse DM, but our GM will definitely not tolerate that.


I'd be more inclined to take it as a partial sphere, to be honest.

Yes. That's good advice, I think. Especially, since the GM just announced that he will expand the level range of partial spheres to include L4 spells :-)

So, which full sphere would you recommend instead of combat? Elemental? Astral (good high level "escape" options but very few spells in total)? Necromancy? Plant and Animal are not possible (most to most perhaps as partial domains).

I originally wanted to go for: Combat, Protection, Healing and Summoning (full spheres) and: Charm, Elemental, Divination, Weather (partial/ L0 - 4). What would be your choices, also in the light of the expanded level range of the partial domains? Also, if you feel combat sphere/buffs are not really a good choice because I can't quicken/persist them, should I perhaps go for a pure caster instead (and get 2 additional full and 2 partial domains)? However, that would mean a d6 hit die and no heavy armor...


Get those ability enhancer spells for when you eventually take Craft Wondrous Item, maybe you'll prepare prayer or spiritual weapon and cast them sometimes, and at high levels, you can put a quickened divine favor in a 5th-level slot. Unless your DM has houserules nerfing them, I think crafting feats are a slam dunk. Craft Wondrous Item, Craft Magic Arms and Armor, Craft Wand, and Craft Staff are all pretty good on clerics, traditionally.

I still have to read up on those crafting feats, don't know how they work. They are probably a good idea, especially since the GM said we won't have easy access to magical equipment.


You'll want metamagic feats, but not necessarily early on. Extend Spell is good for buffs, Quicken Spell is good for action economy, Empower Spell is good for blasting.

Yes, right. Wouldn't be useful early on.


Improved Trip is pretty good, but you want high Strength for it, not Dex. I don't think you need more than the 12 Dex to max out your AC in full plate. Yeah, Combat Reflexes, but you won't be making more than two AoOs in a round all that often. Did we find out what the favored weapon for your deity is? I tend to like to play toward that—for example, if they favor the guisarme or heavy flail, then yeah, Improved Trip, and maybe even Improved Disarm too, if there's space. If they favor the short sword or kukri, then maybe Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Critical are more in the cards. If they favor the greatsword or greataxe, we might be more in Power Attack and Cleave territory.

So I have to decide on one route - Trip or Power Attack, right? Taking both would require too many feats, I suppose? Trip is a bit costlier, as far as I can tell, with its Combat Expertise/INT requirement (prerequisite for Improved Trip).

As for my deity's favored weapon - that's not set in stone, I believe. What is the best choice in your opinion? I would generally enjoy trip (and if possible reach) - so a flail or a guisarme sounds good, but if the costs for trip are too great, I am also fine with power attack/cleave only, i.e. a greatsword etc. I'm just wondering if power attack/greatsword is a good idea without full BAB (Divine Power is an option but takes a round to cast and quickened DP will only be available very late). What do you think is the most effective/sensible route, considering the character as a whole?


Regardless of combat style, Improved Initiative is always going to be fine, and I'd say it is a good filler feat if you don't have anything better to put in that slot. It does its best work if you're doing things like blasting or battlefield control and you can take enemies out of the fight before they can do anything useful. But it's also never going to be important to a build the way some other feats are, so you'll often see it get bumped.
So, overall, I'd say combat feats at low to mid levels, casting feats at mid to high levels.

So, depending which route I opt for, I could go for Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) or for Combat Expertise and Improved Trip at L1, right?

Here is what I have so far:

Human, Cleric

Full spheres: Elemental (or Combat), Healing, Protection, Summoning
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat (or Elemental), Charm, Weather, Divination

Power Attack route:
Str 18
Dex 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if I go for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative (or Cleave?)

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion

Trip route:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if going for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Skills: see above

Would that work or would you suggest something different?

Many thanks and sorry for the late reply!

[Mykerinos]

Absolutely, I kind of realized it was a mini primer that could even be its own thread on how to best multi-class with only the PHB.about 1/2 way through.

I am just glad that it was appreciated.

Now, you say that the good Gods are all but dead do ya?

Well they are either dead or they are lacking in fulfilling their duties right. Usually God have rolls that they must fulfill with an higher God over everything like AO in some worlds.

Of course this is a custom world, but if you do play a LG character, I’d might recommend this back story...

We’ll call him Luke.

Luke starts off on his path of trying to be a beacon of goodness (Paladin) and through his research or paths crosses with an ex-paladin he learns that the good Gods are dead and don’t answer or give powers anymore. This causes Luke to go into depression.

He is crushed as he thought he could have done something good for the world, but now he can’t. This leads him to fall, becoming a brawler (Fighter) and thief (Rogue) for a time, before taking time to reflect on how far he has fallen.

Or...

He decides to take some time and reflect on the purpose of life and who he is. He crosses paths with a traveling monk and it prompts him in a new direction in life. It is short lived, but during his time he’s learned why he had power as a Paladin. His soul was the beacon giving him the powers of a Paladin.

Luke sets out with this bravado that he’s on a mission. If the good gods aren’t dead he’s going to find them, but if they are...

...He’s going to replace them, because someone needs to do something.

Luke not knowing that he has placed himself on a collision course with the evil gods, and will soon find out that his destiny to restore goodness to the world will also lead to more order and balance for once. It will not be an easy path to walk.

As he gains followers (Leadership) and even a dedicated Priest (Cohort) who seemingly can work more and more miracles with their followers. He realizes all the power of the souls seeking the same goodness is starting to break the hold darkness has on the world.

Finally the day comes when evil has had enough and rallies their forces.

Is Luke victorious rising himself to godhood, or does he die a martyr’s death having laid the foundation for training 100’s of Beacon Knights and Priests (1-4 Levels of Monk and the rest Paladin or Cleric) so that many will carry on the fight?

Find out next time...

I love challenges, I’d probably talk to the DM and find out if there is a hope of changing things, or if it is a waste and he won’t let something like that happen.

Our GM is quite serious about the dominance of the evil gods I am afraid. And while I also enjoy challenges, I think playing a good cleric in this setting might end up a truly frustrating experience, especially with the kind of disadvantages he will have to deal with. But the idea is intriguing, and I was considering this option initially.

Thank you for your input :-)

[Mykerinos]

I ...
... nevermind. I truly apologize.

Why do i come here? I always feel stupid.

What can i say? You're 100% right, and everything i wrote is totally without any merit, or sense.
Maybe my embarrassment will save some other fool the temptation to speak.

Your input is appreciated, and I read through your suggestions. I am also still a bit unsure if starting with melee and then transitioning to casting will work as well as I hope, but I will give it a shot.

Many thanks and sorry for replying late.

[Troacctid]

What exactly do you mean by "without an easy way to quicken or persist"? Quicken and persist remain options for later on, right? Or do you think that's unrealistic to achieve with a combat cleric because of the required melee feats?
And how about divine metamagic - is that an option to help power the metamagic feats or would it require a lot more CHA etc. for more turn attempts to work properly? I know there are also ways to abuse DM, but our GM will definitely not tolerate that.
If the game is PHB only, then there is no Divine Metamagic and no Persistent Spell. They're not in the PHB, so they'd be unavailable, unless I missed something. Quicken Spell is in the PHB, but there aren't any ways to make it cheaper, so you'd have to do it the hard way by paying full retail for it.


Yes. That's good advice, I think. Especially, since the GM just announced that he will expand the level range of partial spheres to include L4 spells :-)

So, which full sphere would you recommend instead of combat? Elemental? Astral (good high level "escape" options but very few spells in total)? Necromancy? Plant and Animal are not possible (most to most perhaps as partial domains).

I originally wanted to go for: Combat, Protection, Healing and Summoning (full spheres) and: Charm, Elemental, Divination, Weather (partial/ L0 - 4). What would be your choices, also in the light of the expanded level range of the partial domains? Also, if you feel combat sphere/buffs are not really a good choice because I can't quicken/persist them, should I perhaps go for a pure caster instead (and get 2 additional full and 2 partial domains)? However, that would mean a d6 hit die and no heavy armor...
I think the best full spheres are Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with honorable mentions to Creation, Astral, Summoning, and Weather; and the best partial spheres are Animal, Charm, Combat, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Weather. I think Animal is largely just better than Summoning. Elemental and Protection are both very good. Healing isn't as good when it's not spontaneous, but it still gives you the all-important restoration effects. (I notice lesser restoration is over in the Protection sphere and raise dead is in necromancy, but restoration, greater restoration, resurrection, and true resurrection are in Healing. That's weird, but whatever, I guess.) So if Animal isn't available as a full sphere, then my picks would be Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with Animal, Combat, Weather, and Necromantic as partials.


As for my deity's favored weapon - that's not set in stone, I believe. What is the best choice in your opinion? I would generally enjoy trip (and if possible reach) - so a flail or a guisarme sounds good, but if the costs for trip are too great, I am also fine with power attack/cleave only, i.e. a greatsword etc. I'm just wondering if power attack/greatsword is a good idea without full BAB (Divine Power is an option but takes a round to cast and quickened DP will only be available very late). What do you think is the most effective/sensible route, considering the character as a whole?
There are multiple viable options, but if reach tripping sounds more fun to you, the best weapon for it is the spiked chain, assuming exotic weapons are in the picture. If they're not, then the next best option is guisarme. (Heavy flail has its merits, but it obviously doesn't work with the reach build.) The key feats needed are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. You can also throw in Power Attack if you want, since it is a two-handed weapon. Keep in mind that you do effectively have full BAB up through level 4, because Weapon Focus makes up for the point you missed at level 1.


Power Attack route:
Str 18
Dex 8
Con 15
Int 10
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if I go for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative (or Cleave?)

Skills: Concentration, Spellcraft, Knowledge Religion

Trip route:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 18
Cha 6 (higher if going for Divine Metamagic)

Feats: Combat Expertise, Improved Trip

Skills: see above

Would that work or would you suggest something different?
For a tripping build, Strength is more important than Wisdom at level 1. If you can only have 18 in one of the two, I would pick Strength. You'll eventually want more bonus slots for your high-level spells, but that won't come into play until many levels down the line. You're going to also want 12 Dex, as that'll let you hit the max Dex bonus for full plate and give you an extra AoO with Combat Reflexes. To make room, you can go down to 12 Con and 14 Wis. The lower Wisdom will hurt later on, but that's a problem for Future Mykerinos. Right now, Present Mykerinos isn't casting spells that require saves and doesn't care about bonus 5th-level spell slots.

The Power Attack build doesn't care about Int at all, which would give you more flexible ability scores. You still want 12 Dex for AC purposes, but you can dump Int. I think you can still afford to keep Wis at 14 if you want to put some points in Charisma and make turn undead into a real ability. (It is legitimately clutch against undead, and undead are statistically the second most common enemy creature type in published adventures.)

[Mykerinos]

If the game is PHB only, then there is no Divine Metamagic and no Persistent Spell. They're not in the PHB, so they'd be unavailable, unless I missed something. Quicken Spell is in the PHB, but there aren't any ways to make it cheaper, so you'd have to do it the hard way by paying full retail for it.

You are right. I assumed DM is in PHB. Sorry for that.



I think the best full spheres are Animal, Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with honorable mentions to Creation, Astral, Summoning, and Weather; and the best partial spheres are Animal, Charm, Combat, Divination, Elemental, Healing, Necromantic, Protection, and Weather. I think Animal is largely just better than Summoning. Elemental and Protection are both very good. Healing isn't as good when it's not spontaneous, but it still gives you the all-important restoration effects. (I notice lesser restoration is over in the Protection sphere and raise dead is in necromancy, but restoration, greater restoration, resurrection, and true resurrection are in Healing. That's weird, but whatever, I guess.) So if Animal isn't available as a full sphere, then my picks would be Divination, Elemental, Healing, and Protection, with Animal, Combat, Weather, and Necromantic as partials.

Thank you. Sounds good. Just one question: what makes Animal (partial) so desirable (and better than Charm) in your opinion?

Also, with this choice of spheres, I would not have any high level summoning options. Might that be a problem? Why did you decide against Summoning - because there are too few spells? What I find interesting about Summoning is the Word of Recall. Seems like a great escape option.



There are multiple viable options, but if reach tripping sounds more fun to you, the best weapon for it is the spiked chain, assuming exotic weapons are in the picture. If they're not, then the next best option is guisarme. (Heavy flail has its merits, but it obviously doesn't work with the reach build.) The key feats needed are Combat Expertise, Improved Trip, and Combat Reflexes. You can also throw in Power Attack if you want, since it is a two-handed weapon. Keep in mind that you do effectively have full BAB up through level 4, because Weapon Focus makes up for the point you missed at level 1.

Talked to the GM and he wants the Greatsword for the deity. So it will be Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) for L1.



For a tripping build, Strength is more important than Wisdom at level 1. If you can only have 18 in one of the two, I would pick Strength. You'll eventually want more bonus slots for your high-level spells, but that won't come into play until many levels down the line. You're going to also want 12 Dex, as that'll let you hit the max Dex bonus for full plate and give you an extra AoO with Combat Reflexes. To make room, you can go down to 12 Con and 14 Wis. The lower Wisdom will hurt later on, but that's a problem for Future Mykerinos. Right now, Present Mykerinos isn't casting spells that require saves and doesn't care about bonus 5th-level spell slots.

No tripping, unfortunately. I could still do it of course, but the trip weapon wouldn't benefit from the Weapon Focus I get from War Domain then. Given that, is trip still a viable option, or would you skip it?



The Power Attack build doesn't care about Int at all, which would give you more flexible ability scores. You still want 12 Dex for AC purposes, but you can dump Int. I think you can still afford to keep Wis at 14 if you want to put some points in Charisma and make turn undead into a real ability. (It is legitimately clutch against undead, and undead are statistically the second most common enemy creature type in published adventures.)

I'll probably go for DEX 12 and also up CHA. Not sure if undead will pop up, but it would also improve my social skills. Would it make sense to put a few points in Diplomacy in that case?

I still have to negotiate with my GM about the domains. Once that's done, I'll return with a final character draft.

Thank you very much for all the valuable advice and your time!

[Troacctid]

Thank you. Sounds good. Just one question: what makes Animal (partial) so desirable (and better than Charm) in your opinion?

Also, with this choice of spheres, I would not have any high level summoning options. Might that be a problem? Why did you decide against Summoning - because there are too few spells? What I find interesting about Summoning is the Word of Recall. Seems like a great escape option.
SNA IV is particularly nice for its ability to summon unicorns. In general though, I don't think summoning spells are important. They're fine, but not something you need to prioritize. Obviously if you're going thaumaturgist, which is one of the classic powerful core-only builds, it's another story—but you're PHB-only, not core-only, so that's not an option.


Talked to the GM and he wants the Greatsword for the deity. So it will be Power Attack and Improved Initiative (or Cleave?) for L1.

No tripping, unfortunately. I could still do it of course, but the trip weapon wouldn't benefit from the Weapon Focus I get from War Domain then. Given that, is trip still a viable option, or would you skip it?
I'd start with Power Attack and Cleave. The greatsword strategy is going to be dealing the finishing blow pretty often.


I'll probably go for DEX 12 and also up CHA. Not sure if undead will pop up, but it would also improve my social skills. Would it make sense to put a few points in Diplomacy in that case?
Concentration should be your top priority. After that, you're most likely looking at maxing either Diplomacy or Spellcraft (whichever one isn't already covered by other party members), and possibly dropping 5 points in Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) to snag the synergy bonuses.

[Mykerinos]

SNA IV is particularly nice for its ability to summon unicorns. In general though, I don't think summoning spells are important. They're fine, but not something you need to prioritize. Obviously if you're going thaumaturgist, which is one of the classic powerful core-only builds, it's another story—but you're PHB-only, not core-only, so that's not an option.


I'd start with Power Attack and Cleave. The greatsword strategy is going to be dealing the finishing blow pretty often.


Concentration should be your top priority. After that, you're most likely looking at maxing either Diplomacy or Spellcraft (whichever one isn't already covered by other party members), and possibly dropping 5 points in Knowledge (arcana) or Knowledge (religion) to snag the synergy bonuses.

Thanks a lot for the advice.

We had our first session of the new campaign yesterday.

At this point, I can probably still make minor adjustments to the character, so please feel free to comment on possible improvements.

Here is what I have:

Human, Cleric

Full spheres: Elemental, Healing, Protection, Divination
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat, Animal, Weather, Necromancy

Total points available: 75

Str 16 (is that sufficient or should I go for 18? Cleave is probably less viable with 16, right?)

Dex 12 (as suggested)

Con 11 (I had to reduce this to free up points. Since HP are increased retroactively when increasing CON later, I guess this is better than starting with lower INT etc.)

Int 10 (didn't want to dump it completely to get at least some skill points to increase Concentration, Diplomacy and Knowledge Religion to 4 each, does that make sense?)

Wis 16 (bit higher than your suggestion, but I would like to transition to full caster and am worried that starting with 14 might impact long-term viability. )

Cha 10 (you suggested I could not dump CHA to keep turn undead viable. I also might end up being party face with Diplomacy)

How would you have distributed the 75 points?

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative. I took improved initiative because I am not sure about Cleave. I think it will primarily be useful during the first couple of levels. After that my kill ratio will probably drop compared to the fighter and I will start to transition towards casting, which means that Cleave would get triggered more and more rarely and Improved Initiative would be more helpful. Do you agree?

In terms of equipment, I took a chain shirt and got a greatsword for free. Do you have any advice regarding suitable initial equipment?

Thank you and have a nice Sunday!

[Anthrowhale]

Str 18 is much better than Str 16, because of the way damage rounding works. You can think of Str 18 as Str 16 + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization with a 2-handed weapon. That's pretty valuable.

Power Attack without Cleave at level 1 is pointless, because you have a base attack bonus of +0 so you can power attack for at most +0 damage. In terms of opening combat feats, I think it's one of three possibilities for melee which make sense:

Power Attack + Cleave + 2-handed weapon: get an extra attack whenever you drop someone. With a high strength and a 2-handed weapon, this is almost equivalent to doubling your attacks initially, and even at high levels it's reasonable to expect at least 1 extra attack/combat. Power attack also becomes useful against low-AC opponents at higher levels.
Improved Initiative + Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon. You get a variable number of extra attacks in the first round before opponents can melee. This degrades with ranged combatants. Improved Initiative also remains useful forever.
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Tripping weapon. Prone with an extra attack is great. This degrades with particularly large/strong opponents.

[Mykerinos]

Str 18 is much better than Str 16, because of the way damage rounding works. You can think of Str 18 as Str 16 + Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialization with a 2-handed weapon. That's pretty valuable.

Power Attack without Cleave at level 1 is pointless, because you have a base attack bonus of +0 so you can power attack for at most +0 damage. In terms of opening combat feats, I think it's one of three possibilities for melee which make sense:

Power Attack + Cleave + 2-handed weapon: get an extra attack whenever you drop someone. With a high strength and a 2-handed weapon, this is almost equivalent to doubling your attacks initially, and even at high levels it's reasonable to expect at least 1 extra attack/combat. Power attack also becomes useful against low-AC opponents at higher levels.
Improved Initiative + Combat Reflexes + Reach Weapon. You get a variable number of extra attacks in the first round before opponents can melee. This degrades with ranged combatants. Improved Initiative also remains useful forever.
Combat Expertise + Improved Trip + Tripping weapon. Prone with an extra attack is great. This degrades with particularly large/strong opponents.


Thank you. So I will try to get STR up to 18 and reconsider Cleave. I just don't really know where to take the points from... If I lower INT, I won't manage to get sufficient ranks in my 3 core skills (Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion). If I dump CHA, I can't be party face effectively and Turning won't work well. What would you suggest?

Many thanks!

[Troacctid]

Thank you. So I will try to get STR up to 18 and reconsider Cleave. I just don't really know where to take the points from... If I lower INT, I won't manage to get sufficient ranks in my 3 core skills (Concentration, Diplomacy, Knowledge Religion). If I dump CHA, I can't be party face effectively and Turning won't work well. What would you suggest?

Many thanks!
I would take the points out of Int and Wis. Go down to 8 Int and 15 Wis, and then that frees you to go back up to 18 Strength and 12 Con. It's better to start with 12 Con and 15 Wis and put the point into Wis at level 4 than the other way around. As for Int, it's fine to just do one or the other skill and not both.


In terms of equipment, I took a chain shirt and got a greatsword for free. Do you have any advice regarding suitable initial equipment?
Normally I'd offer a whole spreadsheet, but since you're PHB only, just have a look at the adventuring gear section and pick out whatever items off the list you think will be useful.

[Mykerinos]

I would take the points out of Int and Wis. Go down to 8 Int and 15 Wis, and then that frees you to go back up to 18 Strength and 12 Con. It's better to start with 12 Con and 15 Wis and put the point into Wis at level 4 than the other way around. As for Int, it's fine to just do one or the other skill and not both.


Normally I'd offer a whole spreadsheet, but since you're PHB only, just have a look at the adventuring gear section and pick out whatever items off the list you think will be useful.

Great, thank you very much.

How about Cleave? Is it a must with Power Attack and will it remain viable for long enough to justify taking it, I your opinion? Or is Improved Initiative better once I transition to caster in a few levels?

Basic situation: we have a fighter, a Monk and a Rouge in terms of melee characters. Are Monk and Rouge viable front line characters, or is it likely that I will end up tanking a lot? That might delay my transition to caster until I have viable summoning options etc. at my disposal.

Thanks again.

[Troacctid]

If you think your party has enough melee heavies and you want to lean on the casting more, then you can easily skip the fighter feats entirely and be a caster-blaster type with higher Wis. In that case, you could actually go all the way down to 14 Strength and put the savings into Wis and Cha, and replace Power Attack with Improved Turning, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation), or a metamagic feat for later. Or just switch your race to dwarf, gnome, or halfling to get some racial abilities. With lower Strength and no dedicated sword feats, the weapon will be more of a secondary option, and your focus will be more on buffing your friends and then unloading attack and/or disruption spells.

BTW the spelling is rogue, not rouge.

[Anthrowhale]

I'd still recommend dumping your Int to an extra low minimal given the houserules. You end up with 2 skills instead of 3 on a human, which is ok. For party face, the Rogue or the Monk can do that, and better, since they can take Sense Motive as well---without that the face is also a sucker. Knowledge[Religion] also doesn't seem super necessary.

The Fighter is a frontliner, but the Rogue and the Monk need help in core. For the Rogue, it's about setting up flanks.

An effective core-only monk is pretty tough. They need a high strength, dexterity, and wisdom with a reasonable constitution. If I have the houserules right, that implies likely low charisma and low intelligence, so probably the rogue should be the face. The Monk in particular may benefit significantly from whatever buffing spells you can cast on it.

Overall, I think it's reasonable to have a second solid frontliner.

[MR_Anderson]

Thanks a lot for the advice.

We had our first session of the new campaign yesterday.

At this point, I can probably still make minor adjustments to the character, so please feel free to comment on possible improvements.

Here is what I have:

Human, Cleric

Full spheres: Elemental, Healing, Protection, Divination
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat, Animal, Weather, Necromancy

Total points available: 75

Str 16 (is that sufficient or should I go for 18? Cleave is probably less viable with 16, right?)

Dex 12 (as suggested)

Con 11 (I had to reduce this to free up points. Since HP are increased retroactively when increasing CON later, I guess this is better than starting with lower INT etc.)

Int 10 (didn't want to dump it completely to get at least some skill points to increase Concentration, Diplomacy and Knowledge Religion to 4 each, does that make sense?)

Wis 16 (bit higher than your suggestion, but I would like to transition to full caster and am worried that starting with 14 might impact long-term viability. )

Cha 10 (you suggested I could not dump CHA to keep turn undead viable. I also might end up being party face with Diplomacy)

How would you have distributed the 75 points?

Feats: Power Attack, Improved Initiative. I took improved initiative because I am not sure about Cleave. I think it will primarily be useful during the first couple of levels. After that my kill ratio will probably drop compared to the fighter and I will start to transition towards casting, which means that Cleave would get triggered more and more rarely and Improved Initiative would be more helpful. Do you agree?

In terms of equipment, I took a chain shirt and got a greatsword for free. Do you have any advice regarding suitable initial equipment?

Thank you and have a nice Sunday!

With those spheres, you are never going to be a caster.

Matter of fact there really isn’t a reason for Wisdom higher than 14 or really going beyond Level 7, unless you want to get Resurrection and Heal.

You are limited to the spells you can cast by the spheres, and there really isn’t anything that you need a high Wisdom to make your enemy’s saving throws difficult, nor anything powerful beyond 4th Level Restoration making it worth it. You have Reincarnation from Necromancy, so that will do, even if it pisses people off, it is the DM’s fault for not making it worth going higher. You can’t even summon well.

This alone changes your abilities, because now you only need 13 Wisdom to start, and taking the wisdom increase at level 4 will get you 4th level spells in time for 7th level.

I would make your stats as follows:
STR - 18 (Combat Cleric)
DEX - 8 (You’ll need to get a +2 Buff for Half-Plate and +4 Buff for Full-Plate)
CON - 16 (You can really use Shield Other, and that can be a good tactic.)
INT - 10 (Almost thought about increasing over CHA)
WIS - 13 (You’ll never have high level Cleric Spells)
CHA - 10 (Not Negative to hurt your Diplomacy)

This makes going 7 or 8 levels plausible, and then switching to something like Fighter or Barbarian.

However, I would recommend picking up Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, as you can craft most everything that is really important for adventuring.

Basically, I would use Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist tactic, as well as Shield Other.

What Domains did you take? I expected Travel and Trickery, which also doesn’t change going higher either.

[MR_Anderson]

Basically Highlighted in Blue what you would be able to cast that is good, and in Red what you would need higher Wisdom.

I lined out what you don’t get in the 0-4th list.

You really should try to get silence or the guardian sphere.


The spell lists are as follows:


1. All
Purify Food and Drink (Level 0): Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Bless (Level 1): Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M (Level 1): Makes holy water.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Align Weapon (Level 2): Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Atonement F X (Level 5): Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Hallow M (Level 5): Designates location as holy.
Unhallow M (Level 5): Designates location as unholy.
Miracle X (Level 9): Requests a deity’s intercession.

2. Animal
Calm Animals (Level 1): Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals (Level 1): Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger (Level 2): Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance (Level 2): Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal (Level 2): Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal (Level 2): Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Swarm (Level 3): Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Giant Vermin (Level 4): Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Animal Growth (Level 5): One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Tier]
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Creeping Doom (Level 7): Swarms of centipedes attack at your command.
Animal Shapes (Level 8): One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I (Level 1): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally II (Level 2): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally III (Level 3): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Level 4): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally V (Level 5): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (Level 6): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VII (Level 7): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Level 8): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX (Level 9): Calls creature to fight.

3. Astral
Planar Ally, Lesser X (Level 4): Exchange services with a 6 HD extraplanar creature.
Plane Shift F (Level 5): As many as eight subjects travel to another plane.
Planar Ally X (Level 6): As lesser planar ally, but up to 12 HD.
Ethereal Jaunt (Level 7): You become ethereal for 1 round/level.
Planar Ally, Greater X (Level 8): As lesser planar ally, but up to 18 HD.
Astral Projection M (Level 9): Projects you and companions onto Astral Plane.
Etherealness (Level 9): Travel to Ethereal Plane with companions.
Gate X (Level 9): Connects two planes for travel or summoning.

4. Charm
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Command (Level 1): One subject obeys selected command for 1 round.
Remove Fear (Level 1): Suppresses fear or gives +4 on saves against fear for one subject + one per
four levels.
Calm Emotions (Level 2): Calms creatures, negating emotion effects.
Enthrall (Level 2): Captivates all within 100 ft. + 10 ft./level.
Hold Person (Level 2): Paralyzes one humanoid for 1 round/level.
Zone of Truth (Level 2): Subjects within range cannot lie.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Imbue with Spell Ability (Level 4): Transfer spells to subject.
Command, Greater (Level 5): As command, but affects one subject/level.
Geas/Quest (Level 6): As lesser geas, plus it affects any creature.
Antipathy (Level 9): Object or location affected by spell repels certain creatures.
Sympathy M (Lebel 9): Object or location attracts certain creatures.

5. Combat
Guidance (Level 0): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Divine Favor (Level 1): You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Stone (Level 1): Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon (Level 1): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Bear’s Endurance (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Eagle’s Splendor (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Owl’s Wisdom (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Spiritual Weapon (Level 2): Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Prayer (Level 3): Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Divine Power (Level 4): You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Magic Weapon, Greater (Level 4): +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Flame Strike (Level 5): Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Righteous Might (Level 5): Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass (Level 6): As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass (Level 6): As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass (Level 6): As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass (Level 6): As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Holy Word (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.

6. Creation
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Create Food and Water (Level 3): Feeds three humans (or one horse)/level.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Animate Objects (Level 6): Objects attack your foes.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Heroes’ Feast (Level 6): Food for one creature/level cures and grants combat bonuses.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.

7. Divination
Detect Magic (Level 0): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison (Level 0): Detects poison in one creature or object.
Know Direction (Level 0): You discern north.
Read Magic (Level 0): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Comprehend Languages (Level 1): You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Undead (Level 1): Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Snares and Pits (Level 1): Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Augury M F (Level 2): Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Find Traps (Level 2): Notice traps as a rogue does.
Status (Level 2): Monitors condition, position of allies.
Locate Object (Level 3): Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Speak with Dead (Level 3): Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Discern Lies (Level 4): Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Divination M (Level 4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Sending (Level 4): Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues (Level 4): Speak any language.
Commune X (Level 5): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Scrying F (Level 5): Spies on subject from a distance.
True Seeing M (Level 5): Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path (Level 6): Shows most direct way to a location.
Scrying, Greater (Level 7): As scrying, but faster and longer.
Discern Location (Level 8): Reveals exact location of creature or object.

8. Elemental
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Mending (Level 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Produce Flame (Level 1): 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown.
Make Whole (Level 2): Repairs an object.
Fire Trap M (Level 2): Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level damage.
Flame Blade (Level 2): Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage.
Flaming Sphere (Level 2): Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Heat Metal (Level 2): Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Shatter (Level 2): Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Sound Burst (Level 2): Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Meld into Stone (Level 3): You and your gear merge with stone.
Stone Shape (Level 3): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Water Breathing (Level 3): Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk (Level 3): Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall (Level 3): Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Air Walk (Level 4): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Freedom of Movement (Level 4): Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Spike Stones (Level 4): Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Transmute Mud to Rock (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Wall of Fire (Level 5): Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall
deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Stone (Level 5): Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Move Earth (Level 6): Digs trenches and builds hills.
Wind Walk (Level 6): You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Fire Storm (Level 7): Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Earthquake (Level 8): Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Swarm (Level 9): Summons multiple elementals.
Implosion (Level 9): Kills one creature/round.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

9. Guardian - TRY AND GET THIS ADDED
Silence (Level 2): Negates sound in 15-ft. radius.
Glyph of Warding M (Level 3): Inscription harms those who pass it.
Symbol of Pain M (Level 5): Triggered rune wracks nearby creatures with pain.
Symbol of Sleep M (Level 5): Triggered rune puts nearby creatures into catatonic slumber.
Blade Barrier (Level 6): Wall of blades deals 1d6/level damage.
Glyph of Warding, Greater (Level 6): As glyph of warding, but up to 10d8 damage or 6th-level spell.
Symbol of Fear M (Level 6): Triggered rune panics nearby creatures.
Symbol of Persuasion M (Level 6): Triggered rune charms nearby creatures.
Symbol of Stunning M (Level 7): Triggered rune stuns nearby creatures.
Symbol of Weakness M (Level 7): Triggered rune weakens nearby creatures.
Symbol of Death M (Level 8): Triggered rune slays nearby creatures.
Symbol of Insanity M (Level 8): Triggered rune renders nearby creatures insane.

10. Healing
Cure Minor Wounds (Level 0): Cures 1 point of damage.
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Cure Serious Wounds (Level 3): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Cure Critical Wounds (Level 4): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal, Mass (Level 9): As heal, but with several subjects.
True Resurrection M (Level 9): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

11. Necromantic
Inflict Minor Wounds (Level 0): Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Virtue (Level 0): Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Curse Water M (Level 1): Makes unholy water.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1): Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Deathwatch (Level 1): Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Aid (Level 2): +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Death Knell (Level 2): Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Desecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Gentle Repose (Level 2): Preserves one corpse.
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Animate Dead M (Level 3): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Contagion (Level 3): Infects subject with chosen disease.
Inflict Serious Wounds (Level 3): Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max+15).
Inflict Critical Wounds (Level 4): Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max+20).
Poison (Level 4): Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Reincarnate (Level 4): Brings dead subject back in a random body.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M (Level 5): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Slay Living (Level 5): Touch attack kills subject.
Create Undead (Level 6): Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Harm (Level 6): Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Create Greater Undead M (Level 8): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Energy Drain (Level 9): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind (Level 9): Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.

12. Plant
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Entangle (Level 1): Plants entangle everyone in 40-ft.-radius.
Goodberry (Level 1): 2d4 berries each cure 1 hp (max 8 hp/24 hours).
Pass without Trace (Level 1): One subject/level leaves no tracks.
Shillelagh (Level 1): Cudgel or quarterstaff becomes +1 weapon (1d10 damage) for 1 min./level.
Tree Shape (Level 2): You look exactly like a tree for 1 hour/level.
Warp Wood (Level 2): Bends wood (shaft, handle, door, plank).
Wood Shape (Level 2): Rearranges wooden objects to suit you.
Diminish Plants (Level 3): Reduces size or blights growth of normal plants.
Plant Growth (Level 3): Grows vegetation, improves crops.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Spike Growth (Level 3): Creatures in area take 1d4 damage, may be slowed.
Antiplant Shell (Level 4): Keeps animated plants at bay.
Blight (Level 4): Withers one plant or deals 1d6/level damage to plant creature.
Command Plants (Level 4): Sway the actions of one or more plant creatures.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Baum]
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Tree Stride (Level 5): Step from one tree to another far away.
Wall of Thorns (Level 5): Thorns damage anyone who tries to pass.
Ironwood (Level 6): Magic wood is strong as steel.
Liveoak (Level 6): Oak becomes treant guardian.
Repel Wood (Level 6): Pushes away wooden objects.
Transport via Plants (Level 6): Move instantly from one plant to another of the same kind.
Animate Plants (Level 7): One or more plants animate and fight for you.
Changestaff (Level 7): Your staff becomes a treant on command.
Control Plants (Level 8): Control actions of one or more plant creatures.
Shambler (Level 9): Summons 1d4+2 shambling mounds to fight for you.

13. Protection
Resistance (Level 0): Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Endure Elements (Level 1): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield (Level 1): Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge
out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary (Level 1): Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith (Level 1): Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Remove Paralysis (Level 2): Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy (Level 2): Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2): Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other F (Level 2): You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2): Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Dispel Magic (Level 3): Cancels spells and magical effects.
Invisibility Purge (Level 3): Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Vestment (Level 3): Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 3): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10
min./level.
Obscure Object (Level 3): Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Energy (Level 3): Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Curse (Level 3): Frees object or person from curse.
Death Ward (Level 4): Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dismissal (Level 4): Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity (Level 4): Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Break Enchantment (Level 5): Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrifica-
tion.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 5): +4 bonus against attacks.
Spell Resistance (Level 5): Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antilife Shell (Level 6): 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment (Level 6): Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater (Level 6): As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M (Level 6): Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Repulsion (Level 7): Creatures can’t approach you.
Antimagic Field (Level 8): Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Dimensional Lock (Level 8): Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Holy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Shield of Law F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater (Level 8): As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.

14. Summoning
Summon Monster I (Level 1): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster II (Level 2): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster III (Level 3): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IV (Level 4): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster V (Level 5): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VI (Level 6): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VII (Level 7): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster VIII (Level 8): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Summon Monster IX (Level 9): Calls extraplanar creature to fight for you.
Helping Hand (Level 3): Ghostly hand leads subject to you.
Word of Recall (Level 6): Teleports you back to designated place.

15. Sun
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Consecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with positive energy, making undead weaker.
Darkness (Level 2): 20-ft. radius of supernatural shadow.
Continual Flame M (Level 3): Makes a permanent, heatless torch.
Daylight (Level 3): 60-ft. radius of bright light.
Deeper Darkness (Level 3): Object sheds supernatural shadow in 60-ft. radius.
Searing Light (Level 3): Ray deals 1d8/two levels damage, more against undead.
Disrupting Weapon (Level 5): Melee weapon destroys undead.
Undeath to Death M (Level 6): Destroys 1d4 HD/level undead (max 20d4).
Sunbeam (Level 7): Beam blinds and deals 4d6 damage.
Sunburst (Level 8): Blinds all within 10 ft., deals 6d6 damage.

16. Weather
Faerie Fire (Level 1): Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Obscuring Mist (Level 1): Fog surrounds you.
Fog Cloud (Level 2): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (Level 2): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Call Lightning (Level 3): Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky.
Control Water (Level 4): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Call Lightning Storm (Level 5): As call lightning, but 5d6 damage per bolt.
Control Winds (Level 5): Change wind direction and speed.
Control Weather (Level 7): Changes weather in local area.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

17. Curse
Bane (Level 1): Enemies take –1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Cause Fear (Level 1): One creature of 5 HD or less flees for 1d4 rounds.
Doom (Level 1): One subject takes –2 on attack rolls, damage rolls, saves, and checks.
Bestow Curse (Level 3): –6 to an ability score; –4 on attack rolls, saves, and checks; or 50% chance
of losing each action.
Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Makes subject blinded or deafened.
Dimensional Anchor (Level 4): Bars extradimensional movement.
Baleful Polymorph (Level 5): Transforms subject into harmless animal.
Mark of Justice (Level 5): Designates action that will trigger curse on subject.
Blasphemy (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, weakens, or dazes nonevil subjects.
Destruction F (Level 7): Kills subject and destroys remains.
Dictum (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, slows, or deafens nonlawful subjects.
Refuge M (Level 7): Alters item to transport its possessor to you.
Word of Chaos (Level 7): Kills, confuses, stuns, or deafens nonchaotic subjects.



1. All
Purify Food and Drink (Level 0): Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Bless (Level 1): Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M (Level 1): Makes holy water.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Align Weapon (Level 2): Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Atonement F X (Level 5): Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Hallow M (Level 5): Designates location as holy.
Unhallow M (Level 5): Designates location as unholy.
Miracle X (Level 9): Requests a deity’s intercession.

7. Divination
Detect Magic (Level 0): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison (Level 0): Detects poison in one creature or object.
Know Direction (Level 0): You discern north.
Read Magic (Level 0): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Comprehend Languages (Level 1): You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Undead (Level 1): Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Snares and Pits (Level 1): Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Augury M F (Level 2): Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Find Traps (Level 2): Notice traps as a rogue does.
Status (Level 2): Monitors condition, position of allies.
Locate Object (Level 3): Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Speak with Dead (Level 3): Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Discern Lies (Level 4): Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Divination M (Level 4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Sending (Level 4): Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues (Level 4): Speak any language.
Commune X (Level 5): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Scrying F (Level 5): Spies on subject from a distance.
True Seeing M (Level 5): Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path (Level 6): Shows most direct way to a location.
Scrying, Greater (Level 7): As scrying, but faster and longer.
Discern Location (Level 8): Reveals exact location of creature or object.

8. Elemental
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Mending (Level 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Produce Flame (Level 1): 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown.
Make Whole (Level 2): Repairs an object.
Fire Trap M (Level 2): Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level damage.
Flame Blade (Level 2): Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage.
Flaming Sphere (Level 2): Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Heat Metal (Level 2): Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Shatter (Level 2): Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Sound Burst (Level 2): Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Meld into Stone (Level 3): You and your gear merge with stone.
Stone Shape (Level 3): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Water Breathing (Level 3): Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk (Level 3): Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall (Level 3): Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Air Walk (Level 4): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Freedom of Movement (Level 4): Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Spike Stones (Level 4): Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Transmute Mud to Rock (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Wall of Fire (Level 5): Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall
deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Stone (Level 5): Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Move Earth (Level 6): Digs trenches and builds hills.
Wind Walk (Level 6): You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Fire Storm (Level 7): Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Earthquake (Level 8): Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Swarm (Level 9): Summons multiple elementals.
Implosion (Level 9): Kills one creature/round.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

10. Healing
Cure Minor Wounds (Level 0): Cures 1 point of damage.
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Cure Serious Wounds (Level 3): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Cure Critical Wounds (Level 4): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal, Mass (Level 9): As heal, but with several subjects.
True Resurrection M (Level 9): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

13. Protection
Resistance (Level 0): Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Endure Elements (Level 1): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield (Level 1): Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge
out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary (Level 1): Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith (Level 1): Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Remove Paralysis (Level 2): Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy (Level 2): Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2): Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other F (Level 2): You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2): Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Dispel Magic (Level 3): Cancels spells and magical effects.
Invisibility Purge (Level 3): Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Vestment (Level 3): Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 3): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10
min./level.
Obscure Object (Level 3): Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Energy (Level 3): Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Curse (Level 3): Frees object or person from curse.
Death Ward (Level 4): Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dismissal (Level 4): Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity (Level 4): Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Break Enchantment (Level 5): Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrifica-
tion.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 5): +4 bonus against attacks.
Spell Resistance (Level 5): Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antilife Shell (Level 6): 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment (Level 6): Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater (Level 6): As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M (Level 6): Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Repulsion (Level 7): Creatures can’t approach you.
Antimagic Field (Level 8): Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Dimensional Lock (Level 8): Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Holy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Shield of Law F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater (Level 8): As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.



2. Animal
Calm Animals (Level 1): Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals (Level 1): Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger (Level 2): Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance (Level 2): Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal (Level 2): Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal (Level 2): Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Swarm (Level 3): Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Giant Vermin (Level 4): Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Animal Growth (Level 5): One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Tier]
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Creeping Doom (Level 7): Swarms of centipedes attack at your command.
Animal Shapes (Level 8): One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I (Level 1): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally II (Level 2): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally III (Level 3): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Level 4): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally V (Level 5): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (Level 6): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VII (Level 7): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Level 8): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX (Level 9): Calls creature to fight.

5. Combat
Guidance (Level 0): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Divine Favor (Level 1): You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Stone (Level 1): Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon (Level 1): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Bear’s Endurance (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Eagle’s Splendor (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Owl’s Wisdom (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Spiritual Weapon (Level 2): Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Prayer (Level 3): Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Divine Power (Level 4): You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Magic Weapon, Greater (Level 4): +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Flame Strike (Level 5): Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Righteous Might (Level 5): Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass (Level 6): As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass (Level 6): As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass (Level 6): As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass (Level 6): As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Holy Word (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.

11. Necromantic
Inflict Minor Wounds (Level 0): Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Virtue (Level 0): Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Curse Water M (Level 1): Makes unholy water.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1): Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Deathwatch (Level 1): Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Aid (Level 2): +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Death Knell (Level 2): Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Desecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Gentle Repose (Level 2): Preserves one corpse.
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Animate Dead M (Level 3): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Contagion (Level 3): Infects subject with chosen disease.
Inflict Serious Wounds (Level 3): Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max+15).
Inflict Critical Wounds (Level 4): Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max+20).
Poison (Level 4): Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Reincarnate (Level 4): Brings dead subject back in a random body.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M (Level 5): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Slay Living (Level 5): Touch attack kills subject.
Create Undead (Level 6): Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Harm (Level 6): Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Create Greater Undead M (Level 8): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Energy Drain (Level 9): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind (Level 9): Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.

16. Weather
Faerie Fire (Level 1): Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Obscuring Mist (Level 1): Fog surrounds you.
Fog Cloud (Level 2): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (Level 2): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Call Lightning (Level 3): Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky.
Control Water (Level 4): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Call Lightning Storm (Level 5): As call lightning, but 5d6 damage per bolt.
Control Winds (Level 5): Change wind direction and speed.
Control Weather (Level 7): Changes weather in local area.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

[Mykerinos]

If you think your party has enough melee heavies and you want to lean on the casting more, then you can easily skip the fighter feats entirely and be a caster-blaster type with higher Wis. In that case, you could actually go all the way down to 14 Strength and put the savings into Wis and Cha, and replace Power Attack with Improved Turning, Spell Penetration, Spell Focus (evocation), or a metamagic feat for later. Or just switch your race to dwarf, gnome, or halfling to get some racial abilities. With lower Strength and no dedicated sword feats, the weapon will be more of a secondary option, and your focus will be more on buffing your friends and then unloading attack and/or disruption spells.

BTW the spelling is rogue, not rouge.

Okay. Thank you. "Rouge" did look odd, should have checked. Strange the autocorrect didn't pick it up though.

I think I won't change the character radically, since we already started playing. And looking at what the others wrote, I guess the party needs another tank.

So STR to 18, INT to 8, WIS to 15, CON to 12, take Cleave and drop Knowledge Religion? That's roughly what I gather from your previous replies. Sorry if I missed something.

Character got knocked out by an Orc with a nasty Falchion in the first battle BTW but survived. I enjoy playing him. Thanks again for all your help :-)

[Mykerinos]

With those spheres, you are never going to be a caster.

Matter of fact there really isn’t a reason for Wisdom higher than 14 or really going beyond Level 7, unless you want to get Resurrection and Heal.

You are limited to the spells you can cast by the spheres, and there really isn’t anything that you need a high Wisdom to make your enemy’s saving throws difficult, nor anything powerful beyond 4th Level Restoration making it worth it. You have Reincarnation from Necromancy, so that will do, even if it pisses people off, it is the DM’s fault for not making it worth going higher. You can’t even summon well.

This alone changes your abilities, because now you only need 13 Wisdom to start, and taking the wisdom increase at level 4 will get you 4th level spells in time for 7th level.

I would make your stats as follows:
STR - 18 (Combat Cleric)
DEX - 8 (You’ll need to get a +2 Buff for Half-Plate and +4 Buff for Full-Plate)
CON - 16 (You can really use Shield Other, and that can be a good tactic.)
INT - 10 (Almost thought about increasing over CHA)
WIS - 13 (You’ll never have high level Cleric Spells)
CHA - 10 (Not Negative to hurt your Diplomacy)

This makes going 7 or 8 levels plausible, and then switching to something like Fighter or Barbarian.

However, I would recommend picking up Craft Wondrous Item and Craft Magic Arms and Armor, as you can craft most everything that is really important for adventuring.

Basically, I would use Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist tactic, as well as Shield Other.

What Domains did you take? I expected Travel and Trickery, which also doesn’t change going higher either.

That sounds good. A bit more extreme in terms of attributes than what I had in mind, but perhaps I should dump DEX to boost CON. And yes, I see your point about WIS.

Regarding the domains - I would have loved to. Take travel and trickery but there weren't any suitable evil war deities. I had to take a combat cleric with war domain to get around the hit die nerf (d8 to d6) and armor nerf (only light armor). Moreover, only the evil gods are powerful in the GM's world. Cleric's of good or neutral deities lose caster levels every couple of levels.

The only other useful domain in the God's portfolio was Fire. So I now have war and fire.

I will consider the option of switching to fighter later on. Pity the trip built won't be an option for later on with DEX 8. Guess it would be power attack and perhaps rage all the way then later.

Thanks for the useful advice :-)

[Mykerinos]

I'd still recommend dumping your Int to an extra low minimal given the houserules. You end up with 2 skills instead of 3 on a human, which is ok. For party face, the Rogue or the Monk can do that, and better, since they can take Sense Motive as well---without that the face is also a sucker. Knowledge[Religion] also doesn't seem super necessary.

The Fighter is a frontliner, but the Rogue and the Monk need help in core. For the Rogue, it's about setting up flanks.

An effective core-only monk is pretty tough. They need a high strength, dexterity, and wisdom with a reasonable constitution. If I have the houserules right, that implies likely low charisma and low intelligence, so probably the rogue should be the face. The Monk in particular may benefit significantly from whatever buffing spells you can cast on it.

Overall, I think it's reasonable to have a second solid frontliner.

Thanks for the input. I don't want to drop INT that low for roleplaying reasons. Our GM will take every opportunity to remind me of my limited mental faculties and I don't need that ;-)

But I do believe you are right regarding the need for a second solid frontliner.

Thank you.

[Mykerinos]

Basically Highlighted in Blue what you would be able to cast that is good, and in Red what you would need higher Wisdom.

I lined out what you don’t get in the 0-4th list.

You really should try to get silence or the guardian sphere.




1. All
Purify Food and Drink (Level 0): Purifies 1 cu. ft./level of food or water.
Bless (Level 1): Allies gain +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear.
Bless Water M (Level 1): Makes holy water.
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): Reveals creatures, spells, or objects of selected alignment.
Align Weapon (Level 2): Weapon becomes good, evil, lawful, or chaotic.
Atonement F X (Level 5): Removes burden of misdeeds from subject.
Hallow M (Level 5): Designates location as holy.
Unhallow M (Level 5): Designates location as unholy.
Miracle X (Level 9): Requests a deity’s intercession.

7. Divination
Detect Magic (Level 0): Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.
Detect Poison (Level 0): Detects poison in one creature or object.
Know Direction (Level 0): You discern north.
Read Magic (Level 0): Read scrolls and spellbooks.
Comprehend Languages (Level 1): You understand all spoken and written languages.
Detect Undead (Level 1): Reveals undead within 60 ft.
Detect Snares and Pits (Level 1): Reveals natural or primitive traps.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Augury M F (Level 2): Learns whether an action will be good or bad.
Find Traps (Level 2): Notice traps as a rogue does.
Status (Level 2): Monitors condition, position of allies.
Locate Object (Level 3): Senses direction toward object (specific or type).
Speak with Dead (Level 3): Corpse answers one question/two levels.
Speak with Plants (Level 3): You can talk to normal plants and plant creatures.
Discern Lies (Level 4): Reveals deliberate falsehoods.
Divination M (Level 4): Provides useful advice for specific proposed actions.
Sending (Level 4): Delivers short message anywhere, instantly.
Tongues (Level 4): Speak any language.
Commune X (Level 5): Deity answers one yes-or-no question/level.
Commune with Nature (Level 5): Learn about terrain for 1 mile/level.
Scrying F (Level 5): Spies on subject from a distance.
True Seeing M (Level 5): Lets you see all things as they really are.
Find the Path (Level 6): Shows most direct way to a location.
Scrying, Greater (Level 7): As scrying, but faster and longer.
Discern Location (Level 8): Reveals exact location of creature or object.

8. Elemental
Create Water (Level 0): Creates 2 gallons/level of pure water.
Light (Level 0): Object shines like a torch.
Mending (Level 0): Makes minor repairs on an object.
Produce Flame (Level 1): 1d6 damage +1/level, touch or thrown.
Make Whole (Level 2): Repairs an object.
Fire Trap M (Level 2): Opened object deals 1d4 +1/level damage.
Flame Blade (Level 2): Touch attack deals 1d8 +1/two levels damage.
Flaming Sphere (Level 2): Creates rolling ball of fire, 2d6 damage, lasts 1 round/level.
Heat Metal (Level 2): Make metal so hot it damages those who touch it.
Shatter (Level 2): Sonic vibration damages objects or crystalline creatures.
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2): Turns stone to clay or dirt to sand or mud.
Sound Burst (Level 2): Deals 1d8 sonic damage to subjects; may stun them.
Meld into Stone (Level 3): You and your gear merge with stone.
Stone Shape (Level 3): Sculpts stone into any shape.
Water Breathing (Level 3): Subjects can breathe underwater.
Water Walk (Level 3): Subject treads on water as if solid.
Wind Wall (Level 3): Deflects arrows, smaller creatures, and gases.
Air Walk (Level 4): Subject treads on air as if solid (climb at 45-degree angle).
Freedom of Movement (Level 4): Subject moves normally despite impediments.
Spike Stones (Level 4): Creatures in area take 1d8 damage, may be slowed.
Transmute Mud to Rock (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Transmute Rock to Mud (Level 5): Transforms two 10-ft. cubes per level.
Wall of Fire (Level 5): Deals 2d4 fire damage out to 10 ft. and 1d4 out to 20 ft. Passing through wall
deals 2d6 damage +1/level.
Wall of Stone (Level 5): Creates a stone wall that can be shaped.
Move Earth (Level 6): Digs trenches and builds hills.
Wind Walk (Level 6): You and your allies turn vaporous and travel fast.
Fire Storm (Level 7): Deals 1d6/level fire damage.
Earthquake (Level 8): Intense tremor shakes 5-ft./level radius.
Elemental Swarm (Level 9): Summons multiple elementals.
Implosion (Level 9): Kills one creature/round.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.

10. Healing
Cure Minor Wounds (Level 0): Cures 1 point of damage.
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Delay Poison (Level 2): Stops poison from harming subject for 1 hour/level.
Cure Serious Wounds (Level 3): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level (max +15).
Remove Blindness/Deafness (Level 3): Cures normal or magical conditions.
Remove Disease (Level 3): Cures all diseases affecting subject.
Cure Critical Wounds (Level 4): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +20).
Neutralize Poison (Level 4): Immunizes subject against poison, detoxifies venom in or on subject.
Restoration M (Level 4): Restores level and ability score drains.
Cure Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Cures 1d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Cure Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Cures 2d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal (Level 6): Cures 10 points/level of damage, all diseases and mental conditions.
Cure Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Cures 3d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Regenerate (Level 7): Subject’s severed limbs grow back, cures 4d8 damage +1/level (max +35).
Restoration, Greater X (Level 7): As restoration, plus restores all levels and ability scores.
Resurrection M (Level 7): Fully restore dead subject.
Cure Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Cures 4d8 damage +1/level for many creatures.
Heal, Mass (Level 9): As heal, but with several subjects.
True Resurrection M (Level 9): As resurrection, plus remains aren’t needed.

13. Protection
Resistance (Level 0): Subject gains +1 on saving throws.
Endure Elements (Level 1): Exist comfortably in hot or cold environments.
Entropic Shield (Level 1): Ranged attacks against you have 20% miss chance.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1): +2 to AC and saves, counter mind control, hedge
out elementals and outsiders.
Sanctuary (Level 1): Opponents can’t attack you, and you can’t attack.
Shield of Faith (Level 1): Aura grants +2 or higher deflection bonus.
Remove Paralysis (Level 2): Frees one or more creatures from paralysis or slow effect.
Resist Energy (Level 2): Ignores 10 (or more) points of damage/attack from specified energy type.
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2): Dispels magical ability penalty or repairs 1d4 ability damage.
Shield Other F (Level 2): You take half of subject’s damage.
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2): Conceals alignment for 24 hours.
Dispel Magic (Level 3): Cancels spells and magical effects.
Invisibility Purge (Level 3): Dispels invisibility within 5 ft./level.
Magic Vestment (Level 3): Armor or shield gains +1 enhancement per four levels.
Magic Circle against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 3): As protection spells, but 10-ft. radius and 10
min./level.
Obscure Object (Level 3): Masks object against scrying.
Protection from Energy (Level 3): Absorb 12 points/level of damage from one kind of energy.
Remove Curse (Level 3): Frees object or person from curse.
Death Ward (Level 4): Grants immunity to death spells and negative energy effects.
Dismissal (Level 4): Forces a creature to return to native plane.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Spell Immunity (Level 4): Subject is immune to one spell per four levels.
Break Enchantment (Level 5): Frees subjects from enchantments, alterations, curses, and petrifica-
tion.
Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 5): +4 bonus against attacks.
Spell Resistance (Level 5): Subject gains SR 12 + level.
Antilife Shell (Level 6): 10-ft. field hedges out living creatures.
Banishment (Level 6): Banishes 2 HD/level of extraplanar creatures.
Dispel Magic, Greater (Level 6): As dispel magic, but up to +20 on check.
Forbiddance M (Level 6): Blocks planar travel, damages creatures of different alignment.
Repulsion (Level 7): Creatures can’t approach you.
Antimagic Field (Level 8): Negates magic within 10 ft.
Cloak of Chaos F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against lawful spells.
Dimensional Lock (Level 8): Teleportation and interplanar travel blocked for one day/level.
Holy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against evil spells.
Shield of Law F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against chaotic spells.
Spell Immunity, Greater (Level 8): As spell immunity, but up to 8th-level spells.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.



2. Animal
Calm Animals (Level 1): Calms (2d4 + level) HD of animals.
Charm Animal (Level 1): Makes one animal your friend.
Detect Animals or Plants (Level 1): Detects kinds of animals or plants.
Hide from Animals (Level 1): Animals can’t perceive one subject/level.
Speak with Animals (Level 1): You can communicate with animals.
Animal Messenger (Level 2): Sends a Tiny animal to a specific place.
Animal Trance (Level 2): Fascinates 2d6 HD of animals.
Hold Animal (Level 2): Paralyzes one animal for 1 round/level.
Reduce Animal (Level 2): Shrinks one willing animal.
Dominate Animal (Level 3): Subject animal obeys silent mental commands.
Summon Swarm (Level 3): Summons swarm of bats, rats, or spiders.
Giant Vermin (Level 4): Turns centipedes, scorpions, or spiders into giant vermin.
Repel Vermin (Level 4): Insects, spiders, and other vermin stay 10 ft. away.
Animal Growth (Level 5): One animal/two levels doubles in size.
Awaken X (Level 5): Animal or tree gains human intellect. [Anm. Manu: hier nur Tier]
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Creeping Doom (Level 7): Swarms of centipedes attack at your command.
Animal Shapes (Level 8): One ally/level polymorphs into chosen animal.
Summon Nature’s Ally I (Level 1): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally II (Level 2): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally III (Level 3): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IV (Level 4): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally V (Level 5): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VI (Level 6): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VII (Level 7): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally VIII (Level 8): Calls creature to fight.
Summon Nature’s Ally IX (Level 9): Calls creature to fight.

5. Combat
Guidance (Level 0): +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check.
Divine Favor (Level 1): You gain +1 per three levels on attack and damage rolls.
Magic Stone (Level 1): Three stones gain +1 on attack, deal 1d6 +1 damage.
Magic Weapon (Level 1): Weapon gains +1 bonus.
Bear’s Endurance (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Con for 1 min./level.
Bull’s Strength (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Str for 1 min./level.
Eagle’s Splendor (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Cha for 1 min./level.
Owl’s Wisdom (Level 2): Subject gains +4 to Wis for 1 min./level.
Spiritual Weapon (Level 2): Magic weapon attacks on its own.
Prayer (Level 3): Allies +1 bonus on most rolls, enemies –1 penalty.
Divine Power (Level 4): You gain attack bonus, +6 to Str, and 1 hp/level.
Magic Weapon, Greater (Level 4): +1 bonus/four levels (max +5).
Flame Strike (Level 5): Smite foes with divine fire (1d6/level damage).
Insect Plague (Level 5): Locust swarms attack creatures.
Righteous Might (Level 5): Your size increases, and you gain combat bonuses.
Bear’s Endurance, Mass (Level 6): As bear’s endurance, affects one subject/level.
Bull’s Strength, Mass (Level 6): As bull’s strength, affects one subject/level.
Eagle’s Splendor, Mass (Level 6): As eagle’s splendor, affects one subject/level.
Owl’s Wisdom, Mass (Level 6): As owl’s wisdom, affects one subject/level.
Holy Word (Level 7): Kills, paralyzes, blinds, or deafens nongood subjects.

11. Necromantic
Inflict Minor Wounds (Level 0): Touch attack, 1 point of damage.
Virtue (Level 0): Subject gains 1 temporary hp.
Curse Water M (Level 1): Makes unholy water.
Hide from Undead (Level 1): Undead can’t perceive one subject/level.
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1): Touch deals 1d8 damage +1/level (max +5).
Deathwatch (Level 1): Reveals how near death subjects within 30 ft. are.
Aid (Level 2): +1 on attack rolls and saves against fear, 1d8 temporary hp +1/level (max +10).
Death Knell (Level 2): Kills dying creature; you gain 1d8 temporary hp, +2 to Str, and +1 level.
Desecrate M (Level 2): Fills area with negative energy, making undead stronger.
Gentle Repose (Level 2): Preserves one corpse.
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2): Touch attack, 2d8 damage +1/level (max +10).
Animate Dead M (Level 3): Creates undead skeletons and zombies.
Contagion (Level 3): Infects subject with chosen disease.
Inflict Serious Wounds (Level 3): Touch attack, 3d8 damage +1/level (max+15).
Inflict Critical Wounds (Level 4): Touch attack, 4d8 damage +1/level (max+20).
Poison (Level 4): Touch deals 1d10 Con damage, repeats in 1 min.
Reincarnate (Level 4): Brings dead subject back in a random body.
Inflict Light Wounds, Mass (Level 5): Deals 1d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Raise Dead M (Level 5): Restores life to subject who died as long as one day/level ago.
Slay Living (Level 5): Touch attack kills subject.
Create Undead (Level 6): Create ghouls, ghasts, mummies, or mohrgs.
Harm (Level 6): Deals 10 points/level damage to target.
Inflict Moderate Wounds, Mass (Level 6): Deals 2d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Serious Wounds, Mass (Level 7): Deals 3d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Inflict Critical Wounds, Mass (Level 8): Deals 4d8 damage +1/level to many creatures.
Create Greater Undead M (Level 8): Create shadows, wraiths, spectres, or devourers.
Unholy Aura F (Level 8): +4 to AC, +4 resistance, and SR 25 against good spells.
Energy Drain (Level 9): Subject gains 2d4 negative levels.
Soul Bind (Level 9): Traps newly dead soul to prevent resurrection.

16. Weather
Faerie Fire (Level 1): Outlines subjects with light, canceling blur, concealment, and the like.
Obscuring Mist (Level 1): Fog surrounds you.
Fog Cloud (Level 2): Fog obscures vision.
Gust of Wind (Level 2): Blows away or knocks down smaller creatures.
Call Lightning (Level 3): Calls down lightning bolts (3d6 per bolt) from sky.
Control Water (Level 4): Raises or lowers bodies of water.
Call Lightning Storm (Level 5): As call lightning, but 5d6 damage per bolt.
Control Winds (Level 5): Change wind direction and speed.
Control Weather (Level 7): Changes weather in local area.
Storm of Vengeance (Level 9): Storm rains acid, lightning, and hail.


There really aren't that many spells that require WIS, you are right. As for the domains, I understand that silence would be important, but I think I will stay with my current domains. Don't want to make my GM mad
Already had to negotiate quite a bit to get the (partial) animal domain. Perhaps I can get silence in a different way (like a rod or so)?

[bean illus]

I'd still recommend dumping your Int to an extra low minimal given the houserules. You end up with 2 skills instead of 3 on a human, which is ok. For party face, the Rogue or the Monk can do that, and better, since they can take Sense Motive as well---without that the face is also a sucker. Knowledge[Religion] also doesn't seem super necessary.

The Fighter is a frontliner, but the Rogue and the Monk need help in core. For the Rogue, it's about setting up flanks.

An effective core-only monk is pretty tough. They need a high strength, dexterity, and wisdom with a reasonable constitution. If I have the houserules right, that implies likely low charisma and low intelligence, so probably the rogue should be the face. The Monk in particular may benefit significantly from whatever buffing spells you can cast on it.

Overall, I think it's reasonable to have a second solid frontliner.

hmmmm. Rogue works best with flankers, monks with buffing. That's thinking from their side.


Okay. Thank you. "Rouge" did look odd, should have checked. Strange the autocorrect didn't pick it up though.
It didn't autocorrect because rouge is a word. It's a makeup: a blush, for the cheeks.


I think I won't change the character radically, since we already started playing. And looking at what the others wrote, I guess the party needs another tank.



So STR to 18, INT to 8, WIS to 15, CON to 12, take Cleave and drop Knowledge Religion? That's roughly what I gather from your previous replies. Sorry if I missed something.

Character got knocked out by an Orc with a nasty Falchion in the first battle BTW but survived. I enjoy playing him. Thanks again for all your help :-)

You could take advantage of the point buy houserule, and snag two 18s for physical stats. This follows Mr Anderson's idea of "Combat Cleric". Keep adding wisdom, and you'll easily get your spells.

18 18 12 - 8 13 6
18 16 12 - 10 13 6
18 14 16 - 8 13 6

H Improved Initiative
1 Combat Reflexes
3 Power Attack
6 Cleave
9 Craft Wondrous Item
12 Quicken (Divine Favor)

Edit: Feats rearranged

The idea here is, that going first is very powerful, and fun for a buffer/caster. So that spell that you keep saying "that takes a standard action", with high Dex AND imp init you can cast it almost every time.

Additionally, of course your AC it's nice, and assuming you can find mithral it stays nice. And, the combination of Cleave, Combat Reflexes, and later Divine Power, will give you more strikes then your opponents are happy about.




But I do believe you are right regarding the need for a second solid frontliner.



I will consider the option of switching to fighter later on. Pity the trip built won't be an option for later on with DEX 8. Guess it would be power attack and perhaps rage all the way then later. :-)

The trip build is, imo, still very feasible, but i might squeeze the fighter level in sooner than later.

Anyway, i hope you enjoy your game. Maybe keep us updated? I hope I've not confused things.

That's just me, taking to myself. I don't expect anyone to think I'm the smartest opimizer.

[Anthrowhale]

...
Note that Cleave has Power Attack as a prerequisite.

[MR_Anderson]

That sounds good. A bit more extreme in terms of attributes than what I had in mind, but perhaps I should dump DEX to boost CON. And yes, I see your point about WIS.

Regarding the domains - I would have loved to. Take travel and trickery but there weren't any suitable evil war deities. I had to take a combat cleric with war domain to get around the hit die nerf (d8 to d6) and armor nerf (only light armor). Moreover, only the evil gods are powerful in the GM's world. Cleric's of good or neutral deities lose caster levels every couple of levels.

The only other useful domain in the God's portfolio was Fire. So I now have war and fire.

I will consider the option of switching to fighter later on. Pity the trip built won't be an option for later on with DEX 8. Guess it would be power attack and perhaps rage all the way then later.

Thanks for the useful advice :-)

I never like to play characters who wear heavier than Light Armor, because there is something called touch attacks, but when you are playing with 75 points, you are limited.

I wouldn’t dump DEX below 8, because at 8, you can still obtain or even craft your own wondrous item that gives you a +2 or +4 as needed to match the armor you wear. At 8 you are the minimum cast for a Bull’s Strength spell to max your dex bonus on Half-Plate.

NOTE: Since we play 3.0~3.5 I got my DM to agree to the Hour/Level long version to be +3 always and the Minute/Level long version to be +5. It really saves on game time because of calculating stats depending upon dice rolls. I implemented it when I DM as well, because then players can basically have two characters planned out at all times.

Fire is okay as a Domain because of the many spells not accessible, but if you do want to go higher as a caster and want to risk trying to make one last change to the character, Protection Domain would be better imho. If your god gives you the Full Protection Sphere, you should have the Protection Domain. The reason...

Mind Blank is probably one of the best spells in the game, and Clerics don’t get it unless they have the Protection Domain. The other neat trick is that you can get your DM to agree to the +3 stat spells per hour, you only have to get your Wisdom to 15 and you can then prepare and cast Mind Blank for the day after buffing with Owl’s Wisdom. You only need your Wisdom to be 10+Spell Level when you prepare it and cast it, so you can buff, prepare, then cast for the day.

Going For higher level casting just requires you to Increase WIS every 4 levels and then get a Wisdom +2 Item by 15th Level and you never fall behind if you start at 13 Wisdom, but it does make you dependent upon an item unless you get a book/manual to read, or wishes.

[Mykerinos]

Sorry for the long delay.

I finalized the character, and we played another round of my GM's campaign.

My character looks as follows now:

Human, Cleric

Domains: Fire and War

Full spheres: Elemental, Healing, Protection, Divination
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat, Animal, Weather, Necromancy

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 10

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus Greatsword (War Domain)

The next feat will probably be Craft Wondrous Item. Or Craft Magic Arms and Armor? The GM announced that there won't be many magical items...

Skills: Concentration and Diplomacy (even if I can't back it up with Sense Motive.. but I can perhaps use Discern Lies later on ;-). I read I need Spellcraft.. but perhaps it is sufficient if our Sorcerer covers that skill.

Equipment: Chain Shirt, Greatsword

I asked my GM about Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist, and he ruled that Faerie Fire will cancel concealment within 5 feet. So I could use this spell combination to decrease the to hit chance of my opponents by 20 % without being affected myself - if I understood correctly. Just not sure if it's worth the two turns of casting.

Any further tactical advice - based on my available spells - and feedback on the final character + the proposed development is highly appreciated!

Many thanks :-)

Edit: I just realized that I will need Spellcraft for the crafting feats.. so bye bye Diplomacy ;-)

[Troacctid]

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus Greatsword (War Domain)

The next feat will probably be Craft Wondrous Item. Or Craft Magic Arms and Armor? The GM announced that there won't be many magical items...
Both good choices, but only one of them is available at level 3, so if you're planning on taking it at the next opportunity, it'll have to be Craft Wondrous. If there aren't going to be many magic items, it definitely goes up in value, provided you still have access to gold.

[MR_Anderson]

Sorry for the long delay.

I finalized the character, and we played another round of my GM's campaign.

My character looks as follows now:

Human, Cleric

Domains: Fire and War

Full spheres: Elemental, Healing, Protection, Divination
Partial spheres (L1-L4): Combat, Animal, Weather, Necromancy

Str 18
Dex 12
Con 12
Int 8
Wis 15
Cha 10

Feats: Power Attack, Cleave, Martial Weapon Proficiency and Weapon Focus Greatsword (War Domain)

The next feat will probably be Craft Wondrous Item. Or Craft Magic Arms and Armor? The GM announced that there won't be many magical items...

When you craft an item, craft it with the restrictions like class, level, skills, and/or alignment. You get to calculate the cost at 0.7 of the normal cost. The 30% of Gold and XP really adds up over time.

It might cause problems if you get into problems if your alignment changes or you get drained, but you will already be in trouble when that happens, but you can also prevent certain things from falling into enemy or other party member’s hands.


Skills: Concentration and Diplomacy (even if I can't back it up with Sense Motive.. but I can perhaps use Discern Lies later on ;-). I read I need Spellcraft.. but perhaps it is sufficient if our Sorcerer covers that skill.

Concentration is one of those, sucks all the time until you actually really need it. Will you even have Heal spell? I usually don’t worry about this if I’m a fighter.

Just get Sense Motive and Bluff to 5 for the synergy.


Equipment: Chain Shirt, Greatsword

Two-Handed Weapon is great!!!


I asked my GM about Faerie Fire and Obscuring Mist, and he ruled that Faerie Fire will cancel concealment within 5 feet. So I could use this spell combination to decrease the to hit chance of my opponents by 20 % without being affected myself - if I understood correctly. Just not sure if it's worth the two turns of casting.

You are basically trying to expand that 5 foot range for the tactic. If the DM disagrees, the argument is that it is magic, and the Faerie Fire spell specifically states it eliminates concealment from 2nd level spells, except Darkness (also 2nd level). Obscuring Mist is a 1st level spell, it should overcome it with no concealment, but taking a 20% could be worth it depending on the party. I mean you are spending 2 rounds for the tactic, it isn’t too abusive.

I’d ask him to make them the targets 20% concealment to anyone beyond 5 feet if he doesn’t reconsider. I mean they are a human candles shedding light, and your party should be able to fire missile weapons or spells at them somewhat.


Any further tactical advice - based on my available spells - and feedback on the final character + the proposed development is highly appreciated!

Death Knell says “Creatures”

Death Knell creatures like bugs you carry around in a jar. The +2 Strength is not an enhancement bonus, it is an unclassified bonus and thus will stack with the enhancement bonuses of Divine Power or Bull Strength.

Even if the DM hits you on 1/4 HD and reduces the duration, that is still 25 Rounds of +2 Strength per cast. 1.5 on that Greatsword!!!


Edit: I just realized that I will need Spellcraft for the crafting feats.. so bye bye Diplomacy ;-)

No you don’t, unless you are not playing 3.0-3.5, That isn’t a requirement, so you shouldn’t need it, that is unless you are incorporating rules from D&D editions after 3.5.

[Troacctid]

When you craft an item, craft it with the restrictions like class, level, skills, and/or alignment. You get to calculate the cost at 0.7 of the normal cost. The 30% of Gold and XP really adds up over time.

It might cause problems if you get into problems if your alignment changes or you get drained, but you will already be in trouble when that happens, but you can also prevent certain things from falling into enemy or other party member’s hands.
These rules are not normally available to PCs without DM permission, but in this campaign, we should expect them to be especially unavailable because they're in the DMG, and PCs only have access to the PHB.


Death Knell says “Creatures”

Death Knell creatures like bugs you carry around in a jar. The +2 Strength is not an enhancement bonus, it is an unclassified bonus and thus will stack with the enhancement bonuses of Divine Power or Bull Strength.

Even if the DM hits you on 1/4 HD and reduces the duration, that is still 25 Rounds of +2 Strength per cast. 1.5 on that Greatsword!!!
So...you want to spend DM goodwill on the bag of rats trick...so that you can spend a standard action squashing a bug...and then another standard action casting a spell on its dying body...and then maybe get a short duration buff out of it, if it fails a save from your character who didn't pump Wisdom?

https://media1.giphy.com/media/3oriO8RY4erFEUpHZm/giphy.gif?cid=ecf05e4774vemuq3mzh7nablpnnine04peb5 rpe047ki4ens&rid=giphy.gif

[Anthrowhale]

Extend Spell is the first useful metamagic. It's useless at level 1, and ok at level 3. Picking it up by level 6 could make sense. Long duration effects (i.e. Magic Vestment, Greater Magic Weapon) last all day and eventually 2 days. Medium duration (10 minutes/level) effects apply to twice as many encounters. If you can get ahold of a metamagic rod of extend spell, that's often better than the feat (and pretty cheap as well).

Quicken Spell could be picked at level 9 or 12. Quickened Divine Favor at level 9 is pretty expensive but it's worth at least +9 damage/attack (using power attack, possibly more valuable if you need the bonus to hit). Since you are missing out on Righteous Might, Quickened Divine Favor may be quite important for effectiveness in combat.

On the magic item side, it's probably worthwhile to have a plan for how you would actually use Craft Wondrous Item before you pick it. It's a really good feat with the right plan, opportunity, and a lack of magic items. Note also that if you burn XP to put yourself a level behind others, you get more XP in an encounter.

You'll probably have a much better feel for the campaign by level 6,9,12. In a magic-items-are-available campaign, there is some preference for metamagic feats, but otherwise item creation feats may be more important.

[MR_Anderson]

These rules are not normally available to PCs without DM permission, but in this campaign, we should expect them to be especially unavailable because they're in the DMG, and PCs only have access to the PHB.

The entire set up of the campaign/world is uniquely designed by the DM, so he won’t know unless he asks, and it is absolutely worth asking.


So...you want to spend DM goodwill on the bag of rats trick...so that you can spend a standard action squashing a bug...and then another standard action casting a spell on its dying body...and then maybe get a short duration buff out of it, if it fails a save from your character who didn't pump Wisdom?

It could be 100 Rounds or it could be 25 Rounds. It isn’t spending DM goodwill, it is merely a tactic using a 2nd level spell that if you pick the right creature will have a 90+% success rate. It isn’t over powered.

If the DM gets upset with the tactic then the DM is going to find a reason to get upset at anything. Possibly wasting a 2nd level spell for +2 Strength is weak in most cases. Yet, wielding a 2-handed weapon, it could be worth the risk, especially if the DM lets it stack which is kind of how Death Knell has been used in my experience, but usually for the caster level effect.

How about instead of criticizing and belittling other people’s suggestions, you instead provide suggestions of your own that might be useful. That would be much more productive, and I’m sure you can provide better tactics.

[Troacctid]

It could be 100 Rounds or it could be 25 Rounds. It isn’t spending DM goodwill, it is merely a tactic using a 2nd level spell that if you pick the right creature will have a 90+% success rate. It isn’t over powered.
It's DC 13, maybe 14, which means even against a creature with -1 to save it's still only a 70% success rate. Bull's strength is guaranteed to work and doesn't require an extra action to kill something first, and it's still not even that good.

In general, it's pretty rare for self-buffs like that to be worth the action economy. If you have the choice between casting bull's strength/divine favor/whatever on yourself and then attacking on the next round, or just attacking the first round and attacking again the second round, the second one is going to be mathematically better the vast majority of the time, even without taking the resource expenditure into account. Sometimes you get a buff round where you wouldn't be able to attack, or you just have a fight that lasts for a really long time, and then it can be okay, but that's situational enough that it's not necessarily worth the opportunity cost of the prepared spell slot. In order for a self-buff to be worth it, you need to improve the action economy somehow so you're not just spinning your wheels for a turn. That's why group buffs like bless and prayer are usually so much better—because they apply to everyone, not just you, so they work immediately rather than on a one-round delay, and they act as a force multiplier. Similarly, longer-duration buffs like heroism and barkskin get around the action economy problem by lasting multiple combats.


How about instead of criticizing and belittling other people’s suggestions, you instead provide suggestions of your own that might be useful. That would be much more productive, and I’m sure you can provide better tactics.
I have been doing that. In fact, I already raised this exact action economy concern earlier in the thread.

[MR_Anderson]

It's DC 13, maybe 14, which means even against a creature with -1 to save it's still only a 70% success rate. Bull's strength is guaranteed to work and doesn't require an extra action to kill something first, and it's still not even that good.

DC = 10 + Spell Level + Ability Modifier
Thus DC of 15 as per his stated stats unbuffed, but don’t stop there.

Sacrifice a creature with a low Wisdom score like a baby fungus creature, maybe just use a tadpole, worm, slug, or something else, specifically aiming for a Wisdom of 3 or less, which means...

The creature needs to either roll a 19-20 for a 2-3, or a natural 20 if they have a 1.

This is your 90+%.


I have been doing that. In fact, I already raised this exact action economy concern earlier in the thread.

Action Economy vs Maximized Character?

If given the chance players will chose to maximize (fully buff) every time, therefore I recommend highest possible achievable points and interaction of spells and abilities and let the player decide in each situation. Clearly a player can determine if they have one round that Divine Power > Bull’s Strength > Death Knell.

[Mykerinos]

Hello again,

I have enjoyed playing my combat cleric so far. Cleave worked a couple of times :-), and the healing spells have come in handy pretty often. Also, cure Minor Wounds saved some lives by stabilising party members. I am enjoying the mix of fighter and magic user. Thanks a lot for all your help!

At the end of the last session, the group reached L3. So, I now have to decide on the L3 feat. Based on what you have written so far, I believe Craft Wondrous Item would be a good choice. If I understood right, I won't need Spellcraft etc. to use the feat, but only the ability to cast the spell + experience points + gold. I am just wondering what impact the XP loss will have for me (thanks for the hint regarding my increased XP if I end up a level lower than the rest of tu group). However, I just glanced through the Wondrous Item list, and it seems to me the really useful items start at CL 7. So does it really make sense to take the feat now already and if yes, which item would be useful for me?

Alternatively, I could go for Extend Spell. But here, a rod is probably the better option. I just have to see if I can get my hands on one in my GM's low magic setting...

Are there any other viable options? In terms of fighting feats I only have Power Attack and Cleave at the moment. Improved Initiative (which I decided against at L1) may be an option now. Having a headstart would allow me to buff (Shield of Faith, etc.) before the fighting starts.

Talking about fighting, what would be a good approach to a standard fight? Thank you for the Death Knell idea by the way. Sounds effective... I am just afraid my GM might regard it critically and disapprove of it.

I have the following spells at my disposal (L1-3):

Burning Hands
Bless
Bless Water M
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Calm Animals
Charm Animal
Detect Animals or Plants
Hide from Animals
Speak with Animals
Summon Nature’s Ally I
Divine Favor
Magic Stone
Magic Weapon
Comprehend Languages
Detect Undead
Detect Snares and Pits
Speak with Animals
Produce Flame (Level 1):
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1):
Curse Water M (Level 1):
Hide from Undead (Level 1):
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1):
Deathwatch (Level 1):
Endure Elements (Level 1):
Entropic Shield (Level 1):
Hide from Undead (Level 1):
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1):
Sanctuary (Level 1):
Shield of Faith (Level 1):
Faerie Fire (Level 1):
Obscuring Mist (Level 1):
Align Weapon
Animal Messenger (Level 2):
Animal Trance (Level 2):
Hold Animal (Level 2)
Reduce Animal (Level 2):
Summon Nature’s Ally II
Bear’s Endurance
Bull’s Strength
Eagle’s Splendor
Owl’s Wisdom
Spiritual Weapon
Augury M F
Find Traps
Status
Make Whole (Level 2):
Fire Trap M (Level 2):
Flame Blade (Level 2):
Flaming Sphere (Level 2):
Heat Metal (Level 2):
Shatter (Level 2):
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2):
Sound Burst (Level 2):
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2):
Delay Poison (Level 2):
Aid (Level 2):
Death Knell (Level 2):
Desecrate M (Level 2):
Gentle Repose (Level 2):
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2):
Remove Paralysis (Level 2):
Resist Energy (Level 2):
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2):
Shield Other F (Level 2):
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2):
Fog Cloud (Level 2):
Gust of Wind (Level 2):

Thanks a lot for your input!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Depending on alignment, Ancestral Relic is available at level 3, it's really powerful, and it works flavor-wise with crafting feats, since you're already crafting one item. Make it something you can apply an Extend rod to and you can get it even without the DM giving one to you.

[Anthrowhale]

How much magic item availability do you have in the game?

Low suggests that Scribe Scroll/Brew Potion/Craft Wondrous Item are good choices.

Scribe Scroll means that you always have the right spell available. This may matter less than normal in the sense that you don't have that many spells available.

Brew potion means that your party members don't need to have you available to cast your spells. This could matter quite a bit if you get knocked down.

You are right that Craft Wondrous Item and Extend Spell both do become more effective later.

[Troacctid]

I still like Craft Wondrous Item. The xp cost for crafting is very minor, and in a low-magic setting, it's going to help a lot even if all you make are ability-enhancing items and cloaks of resistance. You don't need to have the caster level that is listed for the item, only the minimum caster level to cast the spell, unless a caster level is listed as one of the prerequisites. (See cloak of resistance for an example of this if you need to convince your DM: the cloak itself has a CL of 5, but the prerequisite to craft it is CL 3, 6, 9, 12, or 15.)


Depending on alignment, Ancestral Relic is available at level 3, it's really powerful, and it works flavor-wise with crafting feats, since you're already crafting one item. Make it something you can apply an Extend rod to and you can get it even without the DM giving one to you.
I believe Book of Exalted Deeds is not available in this game—but even if it were, I think Craft Wondrous is just better, since you can craft multiple items instead of just one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I believe Book of Exalted Deeds is not available in this game—but even if it were, I think Craft Wondrous is just better, since you can craft multiple items instead of just one.There are benefits to Ancestral Relic that don't apply to Craft feats. For instance, it costs no XP to use, and you can convert trash directly into magic items without having to sell it at half-price first. And you can convert things that wouldn't typically be saleable. For instance, according to the pricing in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, architecture is insanely expensive. But once you clear out a cult from their Lair o' EvilTM, you don't have proof you own it, so you can't sell it. But you can certainly sacrifice it to your Ancestral Relic item. Parts of it, at least. Like that evil altar of evil over there.

[Troacctid]

There are benefits to Ancestral Relic that don't apply to Craft feats. For instance, it costs no XP to use, and you can convert trash directly into magic items without having to sell it at half-price first. And you can convert things that wouldn't typically be saleable. For instance, according to the pricing in the Stronghold Builder's Guide, architecture is insanely expensive. But once you clear out a cult from their Lair o' EvilTM, you don't have proof you own it, so you can't sell it. But you can certainly sacrifice it to your Ancestral Relic item. Parts of it, at least. Like that evil altar of evil over there.
You can't perform the ritual in a Lair of Evil™. It has to be done in a sacred location. Stronghold Builder's Guide isn't part of this campaign either. It's PHB only. Also, OP is evil-aligned. And even if it were available with all the advantages you describe, Craft Wondrous Item would still be miles better for a cleric.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

You can't perform the ritual in a Lair of Evil™. It has to be done in a sacred location. Stronghold Builder's Guide isn't part of this campaign either. It's PHB only. Also, OP is evil-aligned. And even if it were available with all the advantages you describe, Craft Wondrous Item would still be miles better for a cleric.Portable altars aren't difficult to find or make, you know. A small folding table with consecrate (a level 2 cleric spell) cast on it (with a few bits and bobs like candles, which are extremely common in most D&D worlds) would work just fine. And Craft Wondrous Item still requires you to manually convert trash to cash, which only nets you half the amount that Ancestral Relic would (and without XP costs on the latter).

If you convert fixtures to enhancements on Ancestral Relics, it's basically free WBL, since you can't sell them. You could also convert a bunch of stuff that's not worth carting around, like mundane equipment that's too bulky and cheap to bother with, otherwise. Piles of mundane armor and weapons, for instance, or dead creatures (since pelts, meat, bones, etc are worth money).

[Nifft]

There is also the nerfed sorcerer.
Changes to that class include:

Availability of spells (PHB only):
Always available: Divination and the 5 universal spells
Additionally available:
EITHER
2 schools out of the following: Abjuration, Illusion, Necromancy, Enchantement
OR
1 school out of the following: Conjuration, Evocation oder Transmutation

In addition, there are some minor changes (inconveniences) regarding the components needed for casting, especially those for damage spells. I will spare you the details.

However, there are also buffs to that class. The combat-related skills are replaced by those of the bard (better hit die, better Saves/BAB, better weapon/armor proficiencies, 4 skill points/level, some additional class skills).

My core interest is determining which of the available class (unmodified and modified ones) is the strongest with only PHB to draw from.

Sorcerer, all you need are Divination and Conjuration (and a Cleric friend who can cast Magic Circle and Dimensional Anchor for your [Lesser / Greater] Planar Binding)... and you don't actually need Divination, but it's nice.

Seriously, though, Conjuration has debuff and battlefield control (BFC) spells that don't get old -- even at high levels, a well-placed Grease / Glitterdust / Wall of Stone can win a battle -- and additionally Conjuration gives you Dimension Door / Teleport / Plane Shift for running away when you aren't going to win, and Phantom Steed for getting around all day when you're not fighting. It's an amazing utility school.

Plus, you can summon monsters to fight for you, but mostly summoning monsters is also best used for utility (since your summons start to come with spells or spell-like abilities above a certain level).

A Conjuror is a swiss army chainsaw which summons various different types of swiss army knives.

[Troacctid]

Portable altars aren't difficult to find or make, you know. A small folding table with consecrate (a level 2 cleric spell) cast on it (with a few bits and bobs like candles, which are extremely common in most D&D worlds) would work just fine. And Craft Wondrous Item still requires you to manually convert trash to cash, which only nets you half the amount that Ancestral Relic would (and without XP costs on the latter).

If you convert fixtures to enhancements on Ancestral Relics, it's basically free WBL, since you can't sell them. You could also convert a bunch of stuff that's not worth carting around, like mundane equipment that's too bulky and cheap to bother with, otherwise. Piles of mundane armor and weapons, for instance, or dead creatures (since pelts, meat, bones, etc are worth money).
You can't consecrate an area that already contains an evil altar. It blocks the spell.
You can't cast consecrate on a portable altar and carry it with you. It affects an area, not an object. You'd have to re-cast it every time.
OP actually can't cast consecrate at all.
If you sell a magic item worth 8,000 gp, you can use the profits to craft an item worth 8,000 gp. If you sacrifice the same item to your Ancestral Relic, you can still only craft an item worth 8,000 gp. They're the same.
...except that Ancestral Relic has a much stricter gp limit on what you can create, and any extra gold value sacrificed above that is wasted, where the normal crafter would have pocketed the difference for later.
Also, if you sell 8,000 gp worth of gems or art objects, you can use the profits to craft 16,000 gp worth of wondrous items. With Ancestral Relic, they'd still only be worth 8,000 gp.
Without any way to consecrate the dungeon, you'd have to bring the architecture back to town, at which point you could presumably have sold it normally.
Piles of pelts, meat, and bones? Mundane weapons and armor? Seriously? Just get a mule and cart. It's less than half the cost of a single casting of consecrate, which, as previously noted, OP can't even cast in the first place.
Ancestral Relic is a great feat for characters who wouldn't normally be able to cast the spells needed to craft the item that they want. But this is a cleric we're talking about. There's no reason to take it over Craft Wondrous Item. Also, again, it's not even a legal choice for this character, or even for this campaign.

[MR_Anderson]

Hello again,

I have enjoyed playing my combat cleric so far. Cleave worked a couple of times :-), and the healing spells have come in handy pretty often. Also, cure Minor Wounds saved some lives by stabilising party members. I am enjoying the mix of fighter and magic user. Thanks a lot for all your help!

At the end of the last session, the group reached L3. So, I now have to decide on the L3 feat. Based on what you have written so far, I believe Craft Wondrous Item would be a good choice. If I understood right, I won't need Spellcraft etc. to use the feat, but only the ability to cast the spell + experience points + gold. I am just wondering what impact the XP loss will have for me (thanks for the hint regarding my increased XP if I end up a level lower than the rest of tu group). However, I just glanced through the Wondrous Item list, and it seems to me the really useful items start at CL 7. So does it really make sense to take the feat now already and if yes, which item would be useful for me?

Alternatively, I could go for Extend Spell. But here, a rod is probably the better option. I just have to see if I can get my hands on one in my GM's low magic setting...

Are there any other viable options? In terms of fighting feats I only have Power Attack and Cleave at the moment. Improved Initiative (which I decided against at L1) may be an option now. Having a headstart would allow me to buff (Shield of Faith, etc.) before the fighting starts.

Talking about fighting, what would be a good approach to a standard fight? Thank you for the Death Knell idea by the way. Sounds effective... I am just afraid my GM might regard it critically and disapprove of it.

I have the following spells at my disposal (L1-3):

Burning Hands
Bless
Bless Water M
Detect Chaos/Evil/Good/Law
Calm Animals
Charm Animal
Detect Animals or Plants
Hide from Animals
Speak with Animals
Summon Nature’s Ally I
Divine Favor
Magic Stone
Magic Weapon
Comprehend Languages
Detect Undead
Detect Snares and Pits
Speak with Animals
Produce Flame (Level 1):
Cure Light Wounds (Level 1):
Curse Water M (Level 1):
Hide from Undead (Level 1):
Inflict Light Wounds (Level 1):
Deathwatch (Level 1):
Endure Elements (Level 1):
Entropic Shield (Level 1):
Hide from Undead (Level 1):
Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law (Level 1):
Sanctuary (Level 1):
Shield of Faith (Level 1):
Faerie Fire (Level 1):
Obscuring Mist (Level 1):
Align Weapon
Animal Messenger (Level 2):
Animal Trance (Level 2):
Hold Animal (Level 2)
Reduce Animal (Level 2):
Summon Nature’s Ally II
Bear’s Endurance
Bull’s Strength
Eagle’s Splendor
Owl’s Wisdom
Spiritual Weapon
Augury M F
Find Traps
Status
Make Whole (Level 2):
Fire Trap M (Level 2):
Flame Blade (Level 2):
Flaming Sphere (Level 2):
Heat Metal (Level 2):
Shatter (Level 2):
Soften Earth and Stone (Level 2):
Sound Burst (Level 2):
Cure Moderate Wounds (Level 2):
Delay Poison (Level 2):
Aid (Level 2):
Death Knell (Level 2):
Desecrate M (Level 2):
Gentle Repose (Level 2):
Inflict Moderate Wounds (Level 2):
Remove Paralysis (Level 2):
Resist Energy (Level 2):
Restoration, Lesser (Level 2):
Shield Other F (Level 2):
Undetectable Alignment (Level 2):
Fog Cloud (Level 2):
Gust of Wind (Level 2):

Thanks a lot for your input!

I usually make gloves of healing, for my clerics, to save on spells for other uses..

This is a custom item that just starts placing the lowest spell of healing I can cast at the time at 1 use per day and I keep adding healing spells and additional uses per day as I increase my levels, have more gold, and when there is down time for crafting.

Per day uses:
5x Cure Minor Wounds
3x Cure Light Wounds
1x Cure Moderate Wounds
1x Cure Serious Wounds
1x Cure Critical Wounds

One use per day instead of Five is 1/5 the cost, it does take talking to the DM, but these are very useful and pretty clear cut on crafting.

Note: Often I would make the caster level the minimum level to cast the spell as it saves on the cost of crafting for very little gain.

You could also create a belt that casts Bear’s Endurance and Bull’s Strength X times per day, or a circlet that casts Eagle’s Splendor and Owl’s Wisdom X times a day. These don’t require you to have higher level as you are just crafting a basic item to cast the spell not be a belt of strength or headband of intellect which needs higher caster levels. These also save spell slots.

As for earning XP and catching up, make sure that your DM will give you XP as per what your level is and not just an XP amount to everyone in the party regardless of level.

Extend spell is nice, but with your spells, you might want to take it at 6th or 9th.

Brew potion and Scribe Scroll are a little lacking in PHB only when compared to Wondrous Item. You can basically create something that casts the spells you want anytime every day without needing another crafting. Gloves of every spell or magic shirts, maybe a tunic, cape, or whatever.

Craft wondrous item is the best, craft arms and armor are next depending on if you get crafting time and gold.

[bean illus]

I usually make gloves of healing, for my clerics, to save on spells for other uses..


This is a custom item that just starts placing the lowest spell of healing I can cast at the time at 1 use per day and I keep adding healing spells and additional uses per day as I increase my levels, have more gold, and when there is down time for crafting.

Per day uses:
5x Cure Minor Wounds
3x Cure Light Wounds
1x Cure Moderate Wounds
1x Cure Serious Wounds
1x Cure Critical Wounds

One use per day instead of Five is 1/5 the cost, it does take talking to the DM, but these are very useful and pretty clear cut on crafting.

Note: Often I would make the caster level the minimum level to cast the spell as it saves on the cost of crafting for very little gain.

You could also create a belt that casts Bear’s Endurance and Bull’s Strength X times per day, or a circlet that casts Eagle’s Splendor and Owl’s Wisdom X times a day. These don’t require you to have higher level as you are just crafting a basic item to cast the spell not be a belt of strength or headband of intellect which needs higher caster levels. These also save spell slots.

As for earning XP and catching up, make sure that your DM will give you XP as per what your level is and not just an XP amount to everyone in the party regardless of level.


Extend spell is nice, but with your spells, you might want to take it at 6th or 9th.

Brew potion and Scribe Scroll are a little lacking in PHB only when compared to Wondrous Item. You can basically create something that casts the spells you want anytime every day without needing another crafting. Gloves of every spell or magic shirts, maybe a tunic, cape, or whatever.

Craft wondrous item is the best, craft arms and armor are next depending on if you get crafting time and gold.

That's all good advice. Either way, i would check with the DM before i set my expectations. The DM could limit downtime, or otherwise stifle expected result, as a way to achieve their setting.

[MR_Anderson]

That's all good advice. Either way, i would check with the DM before i set my expectations. The DM could limit downtime, or otherwise stifle expected result, as a way to achieve their setting.

You’re absolutely right. I came up with the idea for the healing gloves because our DM gave us very limited down time, so sometimes I only had the ability to add just a single spell when we came into a town.

I also made gauntlets of true strike 3x per day for the melee characters.

The other item I would craft is something like an amulet, tunic, cloak, robe, or crown that provides Continuous Protection from Evil, it only costs 2,000 gp to craft (4,000 gp value), it protects vs the mind control stuff, you could also add Chaos and Law to it as well, but I usually skip Protection from Good.

A pair of Glasses with all the detect spells you have that are 0-Level or 1st Level are also useful.

[Troacctid]

You’re absolutely right. I came up with the idea for the healing gloves because our DM gave us very limited down time, so sometimes I only had the ability to add just a single spell when we came into a town.

I also made gauntlets of true strike 3x per day for the melee characters.

The other item I would craft is something like an amulet, tunic, cloak, robe, or crown that provides Continuous Protection from Evil, it only costs 2,000 gp to craft (4,000 gp value), it protects vs the mind control stuff, you could also add Chaos and Law to it as well, but I usually skip Protection from Good.

A pair of Glasses with all the detect spells you have that are 0-Level or 1st Level are also useful.
I don't think you should necessarily expect to be able to craft custom items of your own invention. They're very DM-dependent. But I also don't think you really need to craft any custom items because you can do just fine with the basic stuff in the DMG.


That's all good advice. Either way, i would check with the DM before i set my expectations. The DM could limit downtime, or otherwise stifle expected result, as a way to achieve their setting.
Yeah, if your DM has houserules nerfing item creation, then item creation feats are going to go down in value. But presumably you also would have known about them by now, right?

[MR_Anderson]

I don't think you should necessarily expect to be able to craft custom items of your own invention. They're very DM-dependent. But I also don't think you really need to craft any custom items because you can do just fine with the basic stuff in the DMG.

I think there is an understanding that crafting an item that has a 5 uses of a spell per day is not really outside the realm of acceptable custom. It has a simple formula.

However, Crafting a real custom item like Gauntlets of Absolute True Strike (GoATS) that require Extend Spell feat, Spell level of 2nd, and Minimum caster level of 3rd, and “Continuous Use“ calculations allowing one attack each round to benefit from a +20 is extremely custom, and I wouldn’t expect many DM’s to allow it, even at the highly expensive cost.

Any crafting skill requires DM coordination, even for the stuff in the book, especially when the DM has already stated PHB only.