Artificer Armorer: what are you supposed to be?

[Omni-Centrist]

I'm relatively unfamiliar with the artificer class, but the artificer definitely confused me the most. What are you supposed to do with it? Is it supposed to he a spellcaster in heavy armor, or a frontline fighter? I'm confused. I'm super interested in hearing how you guys would build one, specifically a great use of the armor either defensively or offensively.

[Dork_Forge]

Intention wise? Either an aggro drawing tank or a rogue-ish ranged combatant (increased stealth, mobility and ranged damage, no Artificer will be a 'spellcaster' first and foremost in the traditional sense, because they don't have the slots, progression and features to support it.

The closest you'll get to a caster Artificer is an Artillerist (blaster) and Alchemist (healing and blasting).

[Omni-Centrist]

Intention wise? Either an aggro drawing tank or a rogue-ish ranged combatant (increased stealth, mobility and ranged damage, no Artificer will be a 'spellcaster' first and foremost in the traditional sense, because they don't have the slots, progression and features to support it.

The closest you'll get to a caster Artificer is an Artillerist (blaster) and Alchemist (healing and blasting).

How would a sharpshooter repeating shot crossbow expert artificer look? You have heavy armor, no disadvantage on stealth and at Level four two sharpshooter attacks.

[Yakk]

Iron man.

Duh.

[Dork_Forge]

How would a sharpshooter repeating shot crossbow expert artificer look? You have heavy armor, no disadvantage on stealth and at Level four two sharpshooter attacks.

Do you mean at level 5 for the two attacks (Extra Attack)? I mean it would be okay to begin with, you can give yourself a +1 weapon afterall that ups your damage and chance of landing the SS attacks, but after that you're not really helping yourself out. The Battle Smith later on would be able to add Arcane Jolt, but the Armorer is all about improving their armor (i.e. their subclass given weapons).

Instead of using a repeating crossbow though, you could just use the Lighning Launcher? It's just a ranged weapon, so it's eligible for SS and if you want to grab it, Archery. Then your damage would be pretty nice, infuse it with Enhanced Weapon and leverage the additional d6 per turn damage.

Heck, you could use a chest mounted launcher, have a shield and in case of AoO just hold a rapier or something (you'll want at least a little dex regardless, it's too powerful a stat to ignore unnecessarily).

[Omni-Centrist]

Intention wise? Either an aggro drawing tank or a rogue-ish ranged combatant (increased stealth, mobility and ranged damage, no Artificer will be a 'spellcaster' first and foremost in the traditional sense, because they don't have the slots, progression and features to support it.

The closest you'll get to a caster Artificer is an Artillerist (blaster) and Alchemist (healing and blasting).


Do you mean at level 5 for the two attacks (Extra Attack)? I mean it would be okay to begin with, you can give yourself a +1 weapon afterall that ups your damage and chance of landing the SS attacks, but after that you're not really helping yourself out. The Battle Smith later on would be able to add Arcane Jolt, but the Armorer is all about improving their armor (i.e. their subclass given weapons).

Instead of using a repeating crossbow though, you could just use the Lighning Launcher? It's just a ranged weapon, so it's eligible for SS and if you want to grab it, Archery. Then your damage would be pretty nice, infuse it with Enhanced Weapon and leverage the additional d6 per turn damage.

Heck, you could use a chest mounted launcher, have a shield and in case of AoO just hold a rapier or something (you'll want at least a little dex regardless, it's too powerful a stat to ignore unnecessarily).

Why not both? You could theoretically get heavy Armor, repeating shot, enhanced weapon all by Level 6 (Fighter 1, Armoror 5) for a total of 3 sharpshooter attacks with 20 AC and full spellcasting. Two shots with chest mount and one with crossbow for heavy damage, both at +1 as well.

[Dork_Forge]

Why not both? You could theoretically get heavy Armor, repeating shot, enhanced weapon all by Level 6 (Fighter 1, Armoror 5) for a total of 3 sharpshooter attacks with 20 AC and full spellcasting. Two shots with chest mount and one with crossbow for heavy damage, both at +1 as well.

I think you're confusing Repeating Shot with Crossbow Expert, Repeating Shot doesn't give you a bonus action attack like CBE does. Otherwise you'd probably be best off going heavy in a single stat (leaving Dex at say a +2 or +3) since Int not only is your casting modifier but also dictates not only the bonus you get from Flash of Genius, but also the number of times per day you can use it to (and how many objects you can effect with Magical Tinkering).

[Omni-Centrist]

I think you're confusing Repeating Shot with Crossbow Expert, Repeating Shot doesn't give you a bonus action attack like CBE does. Otherwise you'd probably be best off going heavy in a single stat (leaving Dex at say a +2 or +3) since Int not only is your casting modifier but also dictates not only the bonus you get from Flash of Genius, but also the number of times per day you can use it to (and how many objects you can effect with Magical Tinkering).

You could take VHuman and run with CBE, but yeah I think if you're going hard into casting, int focusing makes sense

[Dork_Forge]

You could take VHuman and run with CBE, but yeah I think if you're going hard into casting, int focusing makes sense

You could, I just assumed the confusion as you made no mention of CBE.

You don't have to go hard into casting for maxing Int to make sense on an Armorer (or well, pretty much every Artificer), Flash of Genius is a powerful ability with double reliance on the stat. If you're going to be maxing Dex, then it raises the question of, why not multiclass out of Artificer when you have what you want?

If you abandoned it for Fighter, then you'd get nothing but goodies for 4 levels and those goodies would greatly magnify your effectiveness as a SS and in general.

[Arkhios]

Iron man.

Duh.

:smallbiggrin: the most obvious answer, certainly.

However, I'm also getting wibes of a Self-Forged (Renegade Mastermaker in 3.5) from it

[Droppeddead]

You could, I just assumed the confusion as you made no mention of CBE.

They did ("How would a sharpshooter repeating shot crossbow expert artificer look?"). Although crossbow expert doesn't really do much for Artificers since they will want to use their bonus action for other stuff.

As for interesting builds, I saw a thing on another D&D forum that seemed kind of fun. Basically playing the advanced Stealth Suit from Fallout New Vegas. Get a Studded Leather armour or Breastplate as an infiltrator armour, a repeating heavy crossbow as your sniper rifle and the sharpshooter feat. You can add infusions to your armour that can symbolize the different features of the suit. Periapt of wound closure for the steampacks, boots of stealth for extra sneakiness and so on.

[Damon_Tor]

I'm relatively unfamiliar with the artificer class, but the artificer definitely confused me the most. What are you supposed to do with it? Is it supposed to he a spellcaster in heavy armor, or a frontline fighter? I'm confused. I'm super interested in hearing how you guys would build one, specifically a great use of the armor either defensively or offensively.

It's just not a very good subclass.

The guardian mode is "sticky" with the melee attacks that "taunt", but it doesn't really have the durability that it would need to actually tank, the tHP they get just makes up for their 1d8 hit dice (and even then, not completely). Infiltrator mode adds nothing to a stealth concept (artificers already had advantage on stealth checks via infusions of they want it) and the damage they deal isn't enough to justify itself. You would deal more damage with no subclass at all and just a hand crossbow and crossbow mastery.

My solution has been to make a Battle Smith and make my Iron Defender bipedal with a cavity in the chest and no head, so I can climb into it (gnome using it as a mount) and basically treat my Defender as my suit of armor. The result is a build with a really nice extra pool of hitpoints (once I get my Spell Storing Item my Defender casts Warding Bond on me all day) a built in bonus action attack, a bunch of defensive features, two different reactions I can take to punish runners, great mobility, great survival tricks, pretty nice damage all around. In other words, better tanking AND better damage than EITHER of the two armorer builds.

[Mr Adventurer]

It's just not a very good subclass.

The guardian mode is "sticky" with the melee attacks that "taunt", but it doesn't really have the durability that it would need to actually tank, the tHP they get just makes up for their 1d8 hit dice (and even then, not completely).

The difference between a d8 HD and a d10 HD is 1hp per level, plus 1hp from the max-at-first level. Is it really that big a deal?

[Quaryon]

It's just not a very good subclass.

The guardian mode is "sticky" with the melee attacks that "taunt", but it doesn't really have the durability that it would need to actually tank, the tHP they get just makes up for their 1d8 hit dice (and even then, not completely). Infiltrator mode adds nothing to a stealth concept (artificers already had advantage on stealth checks via infusions of they want it) and the damage they deal isn't enough to justify itself. You would deal more damage with no subclass at all and just a hand crossbow and crossbow mastery.

My solution has been to make a Battle Smith and make my Iron Defender bipedal with a cavity in the chest and no head, so I can climb into it (gnome using it as a mount) and basically treat my Defender as my suit of armor. The result is a build with a really nice extra pool of hitpoints (once I get my Spell Storing Item my Defender casts Warding Bond on me all day) a built in bonus action attack, a bunch of defensive features, two different reactions I can take to punish runners, great mobility, great survival tricks, pretty nice damage all around. In other words, better tanking AND better damage than EITHER of the two armorer builds.

Armorer suffers a bit in combat compared to Battle Smith in early game (a BS should take Sharpshooter and with Repeating Shot Infusion on a Pistol, then swap to a hand crossbow once you get CBE -- you could be doing 3d6+15+30 damage, average 55.5, around level 8... IF you can proc advantage reliably), but Armorer has more role versatility (stealth mode) and better AoE spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, Lightning Bolt, etc.).

Once SSI comes online at level 11, Armorer quickly outclasses Battle Smith in damage output whenever there are 3+ enemies to hit with Shatter (delivered by your Homunculus), and the more enemies there are, the more the gap widens. If you have enemies within 5 feet of each other, Green-Flame Blade on your Thunder Gauntlets also is a hefty increase in damage. Additionally, if you can pick up the Illusionist's Bracers and Magic Initiate (Find Familiar), you can use your bonus action to deliver a SECOND GFB (14d+24 damage total at level 17), plus your familiar can use your SSI freely for +3/6/9/12d8 damage (for 1-4 Shatter targets), and your reaction can be used to deliver another melee attack for 1d8+7.

Two GFBs at level 17 plus your Guardian reaction attack with +2 enhanced weapon on your gauntlets is an average of 98.5 damage per round, plus 13.5/27/40.5/54 damage for Shattering 1-4 targets (average 112/125.5/139/152.5 damage). It's a little situational, but you'll be crushing waves of enemies in close quarters. Even if you can't get the 5' splash damage off GFB, you're only losing 6d8+10 fire damage (average 37 off the top). If you have War Caster, that's replacing your d8+7 reaction attack for potentially a third GFB at 7d8+12 if you can get an AoO.

Meanwhile a Battle Smith with repeating shot on a hand crossbow, SS+CBE, is doing 3d6+18+30, or average 58.5 damage per round IF you can reliably get advantage to use Sharpshooter (which of course an Armorer could also try with an Infiltrator build, which at higher levels is zapping for 5d6+14+30 per round with free advantage on the second attack, before you even Shatter). Throw on Arcane Shot a handful of times for +4d6 (14 average) for 72.5. However, the Battle Smith's Warding-Bond-SSI strategy basically gives you permanent resistance to all damage 10 hours a day. Assuming your Steel Defender never gets KO'd, that's doubling your hitpoints, while a max level Armorer is just getting 20x6=120 THP per day (maybe 75% bonus to HP depending on your Con).

Resistance all the time is a pretty amazing feature, but the Armorer has far more versatility with 2 extra infusions, stealth mode, and the ability to drop greater invisibility or lightning bolt (you'll definitely want to use the Spell-Refueling Ring for an extra 3rd level slot). Not to mention you're not trapped by the SS+CBE combo so you can take sweet utility half-feats to boost Int like Telekinetic, Fey Touched, etc. (On the other hand, a Battle Smith could have a Steel Defender AND a Homunculus which is also pretty fun and adds a little extra combat utility--but because your infusions are more limited you're potentially sacrificing the ability to make another party member really shine.)

I would say that overall the Armorer runs a bit behind the Battle Smith in early game, may be neck and neck at level 11 (situational Shatter could yield VERY high damage output depending on what your DM throws at you/how you manage the battlefield), and clearly pulls ahead at level 15. Also, as a general matter, I think the output of Sharpshooter is slightly overestimated. When you run the stats, yes, it's strictly better than a regular attack most of the time (even without advantage, against lower ACs), but probabilistically the damage increase is not as great as it seems because you will sometimes miss in the long run.

[Silpharon]

Armorer suffers a bit in combat compared to Battle Smith in early game (a BS should take Sharpshooter and with Repeating Shot Infusion on a Pistol, then swap to a hand crossbow once you get CBE -- you could be doing 3d6+15+30 damage, average 55.5, around level 8... IF you can proc advantage reliably), but Armorer has more role versatility (stealth mode) and better AoE spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, Lightning Bolt, etc.).

Once SSI comes online at level 11, Armorer quickly outclasses Battle Smith in damage output whenever there are 3+ enemies to hit with Shatter (delivered by your Homunculus), and the more enemies there are, the more the gap widens. If you have enemies within 5 feet of each other, Green-Flame Blade on your Thunder Gauntlets also is a hefty increase in damage. Additionally, if you can pick up the Illusionist's Bracers and Magic Initiate (Find Familiar), you can use your bonus action to deliver a SECOND GFB (14d+24 damage total at level 17), plus your familiar can use your SSI freely for +3/6/9/12d8 damage (for 1-4 Shatter targets), and your reaction can be used to deliver another melee attack for 1d8+7.

Two GFBs at level 17 plus your Guardian reaction attack with +2 enhanced weapon on your gauntlets is an average of 98.5 damage per round, plus 13.5/27/40.5/54 damage for Shattering 1-4 targets (average 112/125.5/139/152.5 damage). It's a little situational, but you'll be crushing waves of enemies in close quarters. Even if you can't get the 5' splash damage off GFB, you're only losing 6d8+10 fire damage (average 37 off the top). If you have War Caster, that's replacing your d8+7 reaction attack for potentially a third GFB at 7d8+12 if you can get an AoO.

Meanwhile a Battle Smith with repeating shot on a hand crossbow, SS+CBE, is doing 3d6+18+30, or average 58.5 damage per round IF you can reliably get advantage to use Sharpshooter (which of course an Armorer could also try with an Infiltrator build, which at higher levels is zapping for 5d6+14+30 per round with free advantage on the second attack, before you even Shatter). Throw on Arcane Shot a handful of times for +4d6 (14 average) for 72.5. However, the Battle Smith's Warding-Bond-SSI strategy basically gives you permanent resistance to all damage 10 hours a day. Assuming your Steel Defender never gets KO'd, that's doubling your hitpoints, while a max level Armorer is just getting 20x6=120 THP per day (maybe 75% bonus to HP depending on your Con).

Resistance all the time is a pretty amazing feature, but the Armorer has far more versatility with 2 extra infusions, stealth mode, and the ability to drop greater invisibility or lightning bolt (you'll definitely want to use the Spell-Refueling Ring for an extra 3rd level slot). Not to mention you're not trapped by the SS+CBE combo so you can take sweet utility half-feats to boost Int like Telekinetic, Fey Touched, etc. (On the other hand, a Battle Smith could have a Steel Defender AND a Homunculus which is also pretty fun and adds a little extra combat utility--but because your infusions are more limited you're potentially sacrificing the ability to make another party member really shine.)

I would say that overall the Armorer runs a bit behind the Battle Smith in early game, may be neck and neck at level 11 (situational Shatter could yield VERY high damage output depending on what your DM throws at you/how you manage the battlefield), and clearly pulls ahead at level 15. Also, as a general matter, I think the output of Sharpshooter is slightly overestimated. When you run the stats, yes, it's strictly better than a regular attack most of the time (even without advantage, against lower ACs), but probabilistically the damage increase is not as great as it seems because you will sometimes miss in the long run.

Nice job, appreciated your analysis and learned some new tricks. You should check out my build here where I lay out some other Armorer tricks to make him successful:
https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?623920-The-Emissary-of-Keranos-Build-(Armorer-Multiclass-Advice-Welcome)

One of the tricks is to concentrate on Elemental Bane Thunder, and upcast Tiny Servant at level 5 for 5 servants. Then you can use a single bonus action to have all the servants use the SSI with Shatter, and drop it next to the next servant. Since Elemental Bane adds damage by turn, each servant gets a 2d6 boost. That adds up to 5*(3d8+2d6)=102.5 from just one bonus action, and you can do that twice per long rest if you have 20 Int.

Another trick is to make a Spellwrought Tattoo 1st level infusion (Replicate Magic Item - common) for Find Familiar. This removes the need for a wizard level of magic initiate to get the extra familiar.

I like your use of GFB on thunder gauntlets. Booming blade can be great too, especially paired with Boots of Winding Path or similar mechanism.

It's hard to say whether the Battle Smith or Armorer will do more damage late game, it just depends on what magic weapons the BS finds. The Infiltrator at 15 gets 1d6 attacks, with an extra 1d6 per turn, and another extra 1d6 for each consecutive attack on the same target. Paired with a haste attack, this comes out to 6d6 for 3 hits on a single target, or average of a 2d6 weapon. I think that's respectable. As you'll see from my build, I think Sharpshooter and archery fighting style are still key on an Infiltrator fighter, and can really crank the damage.

You say the Infiltrator will be zapping for 5d6+14+30, but shouldn't that either be 6d6+21+30 for three attacks, or 4d6+14+20 for two attacks? I probably would forego sharpshooter on the first hit to improve chance to hit for advantage on the subsequent two, which would give 6d6+21+20.

[Vogie]

The difference between a d8 HD and a d10 HD is 1hp per level, plus 1hp from the max-at-first level. Is it really that big a deal?

I mean, that is the same bonus as the Dwarven racial feature, or about half of the Tough feat.

[Dork_Forge]

They did ("How would a sharpshooter repeating shot crossbow expert artificer look?"). Although crossbow expert doesn't really do much for Artificers since they will want to use their bonus action for other stuff.


Entirely my bad! Originally read OP's thing quite late at night.


The difference between a d8 HD and a d10 HD is 1hp per level, plus 1hp from the max-at-first level. Is it really that big a deal?

It's a lot more substantial than a lot of people seem to give credit for. It's not just making you harder to down, it's making you harder to instakill and that difference is 1+level, but over the course of a day (with short rests, between encounter heals etc.) it can actually multiply into a much greater value.


Armorer suffers a bit in combat compared to Battle Smith in early game (a BS should take Sharpshooter and with Repeating Shot Infusion on a Pistol, then swap to a hand crossbow once you get CBE -- you could be doing 3d6+15+30 damage, average 55.5, around level 8... IF you can proc advantage reliably), but Armorer has more role versatility (stealth mode) and better AoE spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, Lightning Bolt, etc.).

Just wanted to throw the disclaimer in here that the BS in question has to be a Variant Human or Custom Lineage to work those numbers, otherwise they drop +1 to damage and more importantly a +1 to hit. Going a feat based route also detracts from core Artificer abilities:

-one less magical tinkering item
-one less spell prepared
-one less use of, and a lower bonus from, Flash of Genius
-For the BS in particular it also means one less Arcane Jolt and one less hp for your SD

[Quaryon]

Nice job, appreciated your analysis and learned some new tricks.

One of the tricks is to concentrate on Elemental Bane Thunder, and upcast Tiny Servant at level 5 for 5 servants. Then you can use a single bonus action to have all the servants use the SSI with Shatter, and drop it next to the next servant. Since Elemental Bane adds damage by turn, each servant gets a 2d6 boost. That adds up to 5*(3d8+2d6)=102.5 from just one bonus action, and you can do that twice per long rest if you have 20 Int.

Thanks! I love your use of Elemental Bane! And the fact that it just takes a single bonus action to command a 5-turn sequence of Shatters.


Another trick is to make a Spellwrought Tattoo 1st level infusion (Replicate Magic Item - common) for Find Familiar. This removes the need for a wizard level of magic initiate to get the extra familiar.

I'm familiar (haha) with this trick, but I think even though it may technically be RAW per Xanathar's magic item creation, almost any DM would rightly houserule that you can't apply a spell you don't know. And even if they allowed that generally, they might balk at the cheese of Find Familiar being that spell. But if you can get it work, more power to you!


I like your use of GFB on thunder gauntlets. Booming blade can be great too, especially paired with Boots of Winding Path or similar mechanism.

I like Booming Blade slightly less because they can choose to stand still and use a ranged attack, a spell, drink a potion, whatever. GFB is an auto-hit if an enemy is within 5 feet (how I wish I could find a way to extend the range!) -- but I'd definitely consider getting both cantrips eventually. There might be situations where locking an enemy down is good enough. But I'll probably want Winged Boots at level 10.


It's hard to say whether the Battle Smith or Armorer will do more damage late game, it just depends on what magic weapons the BS finds. The Infiltrator at 15 gets 1d6 attacks, with an extra 1d6 per turn, and another extra 1d6 for each consecutive attack on the same target. Paired with a haste attack, this comes out to 6d6 for 3 hits on a single target, or average of a 2d6 weapon. I think that's respectable. As you'll see from my build, I think Sharpshooter and archery fighting style are still key on an Infiltrator fighter, and can really crank the damage.

You say the Infiltrator will be zapping for 5d6+14+30, but shouldn't that either be 6d6+21+30 for three attacks, or 4d6+14+20 for two attacks? I probably would forego sharpshooter on the first hit to improve chance to hit for advantage on the subsequent two, which would give 6d6+21+20.

I believe I was thinking 2d6+7 for the first, hit, which procs advantage and a +d6 bonus for Extra Attack, for another 2d6+7, and then gives another advantage +d6 to whoever attacks next (for theoretical 5d6). But I don't think the next attacker will be you, because you're out of attacks. Unless you can use your bonus action to command a homunculus attack because your familiar or tiny servants are launching Shatters on their own. But either way I think the effective dice are 5d6. I'm not sure where you're getting the third attack, but maybe I missed something.


Just wanted to throw the disclaimer in here that the BS in question has to be a Variant Human or Custom Lineage to work those numbers, otherwise they drop +1 to damage and more importantly a +1 to hit. Going a feat based route also detracts from core Artificer abilities:

-one less magical tinkering item
-one less spell prepared
-one less use of, and a lower bonus from, Flash of Genius
-For the BS in particular it also means one less Arcane Jolt and one less hp for your SD

Absolutely. The full feat dependency of the early game Battle Smith build really shafts you on versatility, although I think you'll probably make up the max Int late game.

[Silpharon]

I'm familiar (haha) with this trick, but I think even though it may technically be RAW per Xanathar's magic item creation, almost any DM would rightly houserule that you can't apply a spell you don't know. And even if they allowed that generally, they might balk at the cheese of Find Familiar being that spell. But if you can get it work, more power to you!

Yeah, that might be a fair house rule. I could also see if someone in your party knows the spell you could make it. Or maybe if you find a spell scroll? It's really odd that Tasha's changed the wording explicitly to "any common magic item" and introduced 4 common magic items, but didn't think to clarify Spellwrought Tattoo creation rules.


I like Booming Blade slightly less because they can choose to stand still and use a ranged attack, a spell, drink a potion, whatever. GFB is an auto-hit if an enemy is within 5 feet (how I wish I could find a way to extend the range!) -- but I'd definitely consider getting both cantrips eventually. There might be situations where locking an enemy down is good enough. But I'll probably want Winged Boots at level 10.

True, both are situational. The mobile feat would be better than boots of winding step, I agree winged boots at 10 is the best choice.


I believe I was thinking 2d6+7 for the first, hit, which procs advantage and a +d6 bonus for Extra Attack, for another 2d6+7, and then gives another advantage +d6 to whoever attacks next (for theoretical 5d6). But I don't think the next attacker will be you, because you're out of attacks. Unless you can use your bonus action to command a homunculus attack because your familiar or tiny servants are launching Shatters on their own. But either way I think the effective dice are 5d6. I'm not sure where you're getting the third attack, but maybe I missed something.

Ah, I see. I wasn't considering the d6 on the next player's turn, but you're right it's worth considering. My 3rd attack is coming from haste, which seems a good go-to concentration spell on the Armorer.

[Quaryon]

Yeah, that might be a fair house rule. I could also see if someone in your party knows the spell you could make it. Or maybe if you find a spell scroll? It's really odd that Tasha's changed the wording explicitly to "any common magic item" and introduced 4 common magic items, but didn't think to clarify Spellwrought Tattoo creation rules.

I've also considered the "someone in your party" rule -- I think it might be fair for most spells. It would still let you cheese your way to everyone in the party having a familiar, so YDMMV.


True, both are situational. The mobile feat would be better than boots of winding step, I agree winged boots at 10 is the best choice.

I'm also playing a Wood Elf using Tasha's customized abilities/proficiencies for that +5 speed, so he's already got 40 speed in Infiltrator mode! :smallbiggrin: Now if only there were a reliable way to proc hiding in natural phenomena. Druidcraft looks promising, but it only lasts 1 round so you would need to make a tattoo or scroll for a companion to use, unless you've got a Druid on hand. You could pick up Wood Elf Magic for druidcraft + longstrider + pass without trace. If you're Hasted, you could cast Druidcraft and then Hide on the same turn (although this is probably not a good use of action economy in combat). Elven weapon proficiencies can also be swapped out for tool proficiencies at character creation, so that's up to 4 tools (although I'm keeping Longbow to launch Tinkerings up to 600 feet).


Ah, I see. I wasn't considering the d6 on the next player's turn, but you're right it's worth considering. My 3rd attack is coming from haste, which seems a good go-to concentration spell on the Armorer.

Oh, of course. Yeah I wasn't including Haste probably because either subclass could run it, at the expense of something like Faerie Fire. But yes it's a good way to get an extra thunder fist or lightning launch in there. It synergizes better with Infiltrator at level 15 because of the repeatable d6 and advantage. So that's actually 7d6+21+30 (avg 75.5) damage just from weapon attacks (if you include the d6 given to the next attacker).

And for the Guardian mode, situationally 7d8+12 (GFB action) + 7d8+12 (GFB bonus action with illusionist's bracers) + d8+7 (haste attack) + d8+7 (reaction pull+attack) = 16d8+38 (avg 110) damage, or even more with War Caster AoO instead of Guardian reaction, but that's not as reliable. The GFB splash is also not reliable if no other enemy within 5', so possibly -6d8-10 (-37) for average 73 damage, still pretty respectable. You lose your bonus action though, unlike the Lightning Sharpshooter, so you'll definitely want that familiar however you can get it.

I would actually consider just giving the Shatter SSI to the familiar of someone else in the party. It fits the sharing-is-caring theme of the Artificer and makes everyone feel better about the absurd amount of damage you're dishing out.

[Silpharon]

I'm also playing a Wood Elf using Tasha's customized abilities/proficiencies for that +5 speed, so he's already got 40 speed in Infiltrator mode! :smallbiggrin: Now if only there were a reliable way to proc hiding in natural phenomena. Druidcraft looks promising, but it only lasts 1 round so you would need to make a tattoo or scroll for a companion to use, unless you've got a Druid on hand. You could pick up Wood Elf Magic for druidcraft + longstrider + pass without trace. If you're Hasted, you could cast Druidcraft and then Hide on the same turn (although this is probably not a good use of action economy in combat). Elven weapon proficiencies can also be swapped out for tool proficiencies at character creation, so that's up to 4 tools (although I'm keeping Longbow to launch Tinkerings up to 600 feet).

I was just trying to avoid opportunity attacks with mobile or boots of winding path. I started with Mark of Passage (before Tasha's came out and we got Fey Touched, doh!), so I've got Misty Step to get away if necessary. I hadn't thought hiding would be achievable (or effective) unless you get hide as a bonus action (through rogue multiclass). In that case, you could use greater invisibility instead.

[Damon_Tor]

The difference between a d8 HD and a d10 HD is 1hp per level, plus 1hp from the max-at-first level. Is it really that big a deal?

No, and that's my point.

[shipiaozi]

Armorer and Battle Smith are quite simliar, both would use ranged weapon and -5/+10. Battle Smith could deal more damage, while Armor have shield.

[Mr Adventurer]

I mean, that is the same bonus as the Dwarven racial feature, or about half of the Tough feat.

So not that big of a deal, you mean? The same as one racial feature amongst several, or half of a feat which I've never seen anyone take...



It's a lot more substantial than a lot of people seem to give credit for. It's not just making you harder to down, it's making you harder to instakill and that difference is 1+level, but over the course of a day (with short rests, between encounter heals etc.) it can actually multiply into a much greater value.

That's a really good point about the multiplicative value - something which doesn't quite apply in the same way to Dwarven Toughness or the Toughness feat, since neither of them improve your Hit Dice healing.


No, and that's my point.

Then... I don't understand. I thought your post was making the complaint that Armourers aren't good enough in their role, in part because they don't have enough hit points?

[Dork_Forge]

So not that big of a deal, you mean? The same as one racial feature amongst several, or half of a feat which I've never seen anyone take...

Just to throw out there, personally I love Tough and recommend it (it's made the Paladin in a weekly game I run an absolute beast), but the player taking it must understand the potential downside of running out of hit dice faster, depending on the type of game of course.



That's a really good point about the multiplicative value - something which doesn't quite apply in the same way to Dwarven Toughness or the Toughness feat, since neither of them improve your Hit Dice healing.

Yeah it's an inherent strength/debuff based on your class, it's a little disappointing to see a lot of people handwave it as such little benefit sometimes.

[Kane0]

Something to note about the Armorer; choosing between Guardian and Infiltrator doesn’t lock you out of the other choice. So while each side may be individually slightly behind the Battlesmith or Artillerist in their dedicated roles you can switch between them depending on the day and party composition.

Edit: and of course you can pick between the most valuable sides at various levels, like starting with THP at the low squishy levels and transitioning over to lightning blster later on when you can have your minions riding shotgun also blasting with your SSI

[Damon_Tor]

Then... I don't understand. I thought your post was making the complaint that Armourers aren't good enough in their role, in part because they don't have enough hit points?

I'm saying their one defensive feature doesn't make them a tank, it just puts their HP (almost) on par with every other class expected to melee without disengaging, leaving them with no actual tanking features. To add insult to injury, every artificer has False Life on his spell list, and the Battle Smith has Heroism. And because False Life and other sources of tHP don't stack with Defensive Field, what net benefit does the Armorer really get here? One extra first level spell slot per day to cast Magic Missile? Again, we come back to "what exactly is his role supposed to be?"

[J-H]

The Armorer is Iron Man, but one who shares his toys by making items for the party, and also has some buffing (Haste) and a bit of blasting. High-AC, versatile, but not an offensive carry like a rogue, barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc. Tank+Support.

[Damon_Tor]

The Armorer is Iron Man, but one who shares his toys by making items for the party, and also has some buffing (Haste) and a bit of blasting. High-AC, versatile, but not an offensive carry like a rogue, barbarian, fighter, paladin, etc. Tank+Support.

You're describing any artificer right now.

[Mr Adventurer]

I'm saying their one defensive feature doesn't make them a tank, it just puts their HP (almost) on par with every other class expected to melee without disengaging, leaving them with no actual tanking features. To add insult to injury, every artificer has False Life on his spell list, and the Battle Smith has Heroism. And because False Life and other sources of tHP don't stack with Defensive Field, what net benefit does the Armorer really get here? One extra first level spell slot per day to cast Magic Missile? Again, we come back to "what exactly is his role supposed to be?"

Ah, I see, thank you.

[Quaryon]

I'm saying their one defensive feature doesn't make them a tank, it just puts their HP (almost) on par with every other class expected to melee without disengaging, leaving them with no actual tanking features. To add insult to injury, every artificer has False Life on his spell list, and the Battle Smith has Heroism. And because False Life and other sources of tHP don't stack with Defensive Field, what net benefit does the Armorer really get here? One extra first level spell slot per day to cast Magic Missile? Again, we come back to "what exactly is his role supposed to be?"

You should really check out my and Silpharon’s analyses above. In addition to having more versatility, the Armorer easily outdamages the Battle Smith in Tier 3-4, especially when engaging waves of enemies. The Battle Smith is better at taking out single targets.

I would call the Armorer an anti-mob support tank who can also double as stealthy backup for the Rogue given an hour’s notice.

[Dork_Forge]

I'm saying their one defensive feature doesn't make them a tank, it just puts their HP (almost) on par with every other class expected to melee without disengaging, leaving them with no actual tanking features. To add insult to injury, every artificer has False Life on his spell list, and the Battle Smith has Heroism. And because False Life and other sources of tHP don't stack with Defensive Field, what net benefit does the Armorer really get here? One extra first level spell slot per day to cast Magic Missile? Again, we come back to "what exactly is his role supposed to be?"

Since we seem to be talking about durability here:

-The armorer gets heavy armor, that's +1 AC without having to invest any additional slots or infusions over other Artificers

-Defensive field does two things, when combined with False Life it means that unlike other Artificers you can ensure you're always running with some thp and can top up said thp mid combat. Defensive Field is synergistic with False Life and unlike Heroism, isn't concentration. Contributing to bridging the hp gulf is in fact a tanking feature, even if you do not view it as such

-The Guardian actually has a mechanical incentive for monsters to attack them, not every game will be filled with brainless or ran as brainless monsters that do nothing but attempt to hit the high AC target. After a while it's just makes more sense to go for softer targets and whittle the party down ran than waste time looking for something in the neoghborhood of a 20.

-The Infiltrator gives mobility, stealth and a solid ranged option.

From when this has come up with you before I will premptively say this:

Just becase a feature can be somewhat or wholly replicated by a spell or infusion does not detract from the Armorer, it just highlights that you need to spend resources to achieve what they do through their subclass features (and largely passively).

At 9th and above they are also the only Artificer that can hand out infusions without detracting from their own power, as they get additional infusions just for them, just for fleshing out their niche/fiction.



What is the Armorer? The best Artificer at using armor. They could have been different, but the fact remains that they are the best at using armor and fluffing a Steel Defender as armor is not the same thing at all.

[Damon_Tor]

You should really check out my and Silpharon’s analyses above. In addition to having more versatility, the Armorer easily outdamages the Battle Smith in Tier 3-4, especially when engaging waves of enemies. The Battle Smith is better at taking out single targets.

If AoE damage is what you want, the artillarist does it much better. Apples to Apples, The protector cannon gives more tHP than the guardian armor does until level 9 and it gives it to the whole team, every round. And he has Shield. What advantage does the armorer have in this role? Is the entire benefit of the subclass the +1 to AC he gets from full plate over half plate?


I would call the Armorer an anti-mob support tank who can also double as stealthy backup for the Rogue given an hour’s notice.

He's less stealthy than any other artificer with a Cloak of Elvenkind infusion, even less so if the armorer is using heavy armor (which is the entire point of the subclass after all) compared to the rest of the artificers who are using medium armor and eventually get Medium Armor Master and invest in dexterity. If the infiltrator armor gave some way to use Int instead of Dex for stealth checks, sure that would be useful... but it doesn't. It gives a totally redundant benefit. If it actually removed disadvantage from heavy armor, that would be useful, but it doesn't. As a result they are actually less stealthy than most other artificers.

[Damon_Tor]

Just becase a feature can be somewhat or wholly replicated by a spell or infusion does not detract from the Armorer, it just highlights that you need to spend resources to achieve what they do through their subclass features (and largely passively).

Maybe. But if your whole subclass can effectively be replaced by 1 feat and 1 first level spell, that is a REALLY bad subclass.

[Kane0]

If AoE damage is what you want, the artillarist does it much better. Apples to Apples, The protector cannon gives more tHP than the guardian armor does until level 9 and it gives it to the whole team, every round. And he has Shield. What advantage does the armorer have in this role? Is the entire benefit of the subclass the +1 to AC he gets from full plate over half plate?

He's less stealthy than any other artificer with a Cloak of Elvenkind infusion, even less so if the armorer is using heavy armor (which is the entire point of the subclass after all) compared to the rest of the artificers who are using medium armor and eventually get Medium Armor Master and invest in dexterity. If the infiltrator armor gave some way to use Int instead of Dex for stealth checks, sure that would be useful... but it doesn't. It gives a totally redundant benefit. If it actually removed disadvantage from heavy armor, that would be useful, but it doesn't. As a result they are actually less stealthy than most other artificer.

Maybe. But if your whole subclass can effectively be replaced by 1 feat and 1 first level spell, that is a REALLY bad subclass.

- Artillerist cannot do both damage and THP without expending spell slots
- Armorer can burn off their THP 2-6 times then swap over to Stealth + Faster movement during any short or long rest
- Cloak of Elvenkind costs you an Infusion; and Artillerist gives you nothing like it anyways (I too preferred the UA version that actually cancelled the Disadv but alas)
- On one side you have a first level spell 2-6 times per day for free, un-disarmable thunder damage melee weapons (they can be dual wielded, although it isn't light) and an ASI, on the other side a hands-free lightning damage longbow, speed and stealth boost. I believe you're underselling here.

Don't get me wrong, I love the Artillerist and really wish the Armorer didn't exist (conceptually). But it isn't worthless. The Artillerist can be a better blaster, the Battlesmith a better tank. The Armorer is a switch-hitter, able to do both fairly well while also striking out and doing it's own thing. I must admit on first and second pass I didn't think much of the Armorer, but upon closer inspection it's actually very versatile.

Sidenote: The armorer can mostly dump INT, needing it only for spellcasting (note that six out of ten bonus spells don't use Spell Attack or DC), Flash of Genius (no way around this unless you don't get this far or are MCing out) and SSI (which is minimum 2). So a STR/DEX Armorer is more viable than it might seem at first glance.

[Quaryon]

If AoE damage is what you want, the artillarist does it much better. Apples to Apples, The protector cannon gives more tHP than the guardian armor does until level 9 and it gives it to the whole team, every round. And he has Shield. What advantage does the armorer have in this role? Is the entire benefit of the subclass the +1 to AC he gets from full plate over half plate?

We were comparing Armorer to Battle Smith, now you’re bringing in the Artillerist. I suspect if you math it out, the Armorer will still mostly come out ahead. Shatter has 60ft range and explodes in a 10ft radius sphere, which can hit up to 13 targets (centered on a square) or possibly 16 targets (centered on a point). Of course you’ll never hit that many, but the Artillerist’s flamethrowers only fire in a 15-foot cone (maybe ~7 targets max? usually fewer) and the flamethrowers are harder to position than a Shatter delivered by a flying familiar. Also if you use 2 flamethrowers you don’t also get THP, or if you go 1 and 1 the Artillerist is dealing less damage.

What I’m getting from this is that the Armorer actually combines great elements of both the Artillerist and the Battle Smith.


He's less stealthy than any other artificer with a Cloak of Elvenkind infusion, even less so if the armorer is using heavy armor (which is the entire point of the subclass after all) compared to the rest of the artificers who are using medium armor and eventually get Medium Armor Master and invest in dexterity. If the infiltrator armor gave some way to use Int instead of Dex for stealth checks, sure that would be useful... but it doesn't. It gives a totally redundant benefit. If it actually removed disadvantage from heavy armor, that would be useful, but it doesn't. As a result they are actually less stealthy than most other artificers.

Two words: mithral armor.
Now you have automatic advantage on stealth without wasting an infusion. And you still have 2 more infusions than any other subclass.

[Silpharon]

Two words: mithral armor.
Now you have automatic advantage on stealth without wasting an infusion. And you still have 2 more infusions than any other subclass.
This. In my MoT campaign, I'm hunting for molten bronze plate mail, same idea - and I can wear a Mind Sharpener robe over it. :)

[Dork_Forge]

Maybe. But if your whole subclass can effectively be replaced by 1 feat and 1 first level spell, that is a REALLY bad subclass.

So far you either have dismissed or answered comparisons with other subclasses, sometimes with spells needed. That doesn't say that the Armorer is worthless, nor that it's niche can be truly replicated by the other subclasses.

Okay then let's do this: Please list all of the spells and feats you need to add onto the base artificer in order to completely replicate the Armorer's suite of benefits.

A sidepoint: If you need to burn a resource (spell slot, available infusion etc.) to 'catch up' with the base Armorer, you're not actually helping your cause.

[Izodonia]

Two words: mithral armor.
Now you have automatic advantage on stealth without wasting an infusion. And you still have 2 more infusions than any other subclass.

The problem with Mithral is that it counts as magic, and thus can't be infused.

[Silpharon]

The problem with Mithral is that it counts as magic, and thus can't be infused.
That's very much up to debate. The rules as written are unclear given the level 9 ability "each item can bear an infusion". Overall, there are many questions regarding armor infusion interaction, and I think sage advice will be needed to sort it out:

At level 3, can the special weapons be infused? If so, can they be infused if the base armor is magical? How about if it is non-magical, but has an enhanced defense infusion?

At level 9, if the base armor is magical, which is correct? (a) no pieces can be infused since they all stem from a magical armor; (b) only the chest piece is considered magical, the boots, helm, and weapon can bear infusions; or (c) all four pieces can bear an infusion as written, specific beats general.

I tend to answer those questions yes, yes, no, and "b", but I realize this is just my interpretation, and other interpretations can be just as valid.

[Quietus]

For the people complaining that the Armorer's temp HP only puts them on par with a d10 HD class (because it's 1 temp HP/level, and you start with a d8) - have you forgotten that you get a number of uses equal to your proficiency bonus? When you first get this feature, it puts you on par with a d12 class (two uses). At level 5, you start getting up to a theoretical d14, eventually having the equivalent of a d20 HD when you get +6 proficiency bonus. You're a top tier AC tank with a very good scaling temp HP feature, and built-in SAD weapons that encourage enemies to attack you. The only thing you're really missing is the Shield spell.

[stoutstien]

For the people complaining that the Armorer's temp HP only puts them on par with a d10 HD class (because it's 1 temp HP/level, and you start with a d8) - have you forgotten that you get a number of uses equal to your proficiency bonus? When you first get this feature, it puts you on par with a d12 class (two uses). At level 5, you start getting up to a theoretical d14, eventually having the equivalent of a d20 HD when you get +6 proficiency bonus. You're a top tier AC tank with a very good scaling temp HP feature, and built-in SAD weapons that encourage enemies to attack you. The only thing you're really missing is the Shield spell.

I never really understood the reasoning of trying to compare temporary hit points with actual hit dice. There are two entirely different forms of mitigation.

[Quietus]

I never really understood the reasoning of trying to compare temporary hit points with actual hit dice. There are two entirely different forms of mitigation.

It's just the roughest comparison. I agree, in that temp HP are better than regular HP. No need to heal them, but they compete with other temp HP sources. If you're in a party with a Twilight cleric, then yeah, that feature is a lot less useful.

[stoutstien]

It's just the roughest comparison. I agree, in that temp HP are better than regular HP. No need to heal them, but they compete with other temp HP sources. If you're in a party with a Twilight cleric, then yeah, that feature is a lot less useful.

I wouldn't say THP are superior to regular hp in any way other than they stack on top of the regular ones.

The defensive THP the guardian gets is more along the lines of adding some breathing room if they start taking a lot of damage rather than a buffer to be used preemptively.

[Quietus]

I wouldn't say THP are superior to regular hp in any way other than they stack on top of the regular ones.

The defensive THP the guardian gets is more along the lines of adding some breathing room if they start taking a lot of damage rather than a buffer to be used preemptively.

Why wouldn't you use it preemptively? The temp HP lasts until you take off the armor. There's no reason not to fire it for the first time as soon as you've put on your armor for the day. By having this temp HP above and beyond your normal HP, you're saving resources in healing spells, potions, etc.

[stoutstien]

Why wouldn't you use it preemptively? The temp HP lasts until you take off the armor. There's no reason not to fire it for the first time as soon as you've put on your armor for the day. By having this temp HP above and beyond your normal HP, you're saving resources in healing spells, potions, etc.

Because spending HD to heal during S rests well net a higher EHP than trying to keep the THP up and not 'waste' any. Artificers have high avoidance as a baseline and the armorer cranks that up a little higher with plate and spells like mirror image. Once they get more than 3-4 uses a day it's easier to spare one up front but there is also a strong possibility of someone else having a better source of THP to act as a max hp extension.

[Quietus]

Because spending HD to heal during S rests well net a higher EHP than trying to keep the THP up and not 'waste' any. Artificers have high avoidance as a baseline and the armorer cranks that up a little higher with plate and spells like mirror image. Once they get more than 3-4 uses a day it's easier to spare one up front but there is also a strong possibility of someone else having a better source of THP to act as a max hp extension.

Except if no one else has temp hp resources, and you end the day having taken damage but still carrying uses of your defensive field, those hp loss could have been prevented. Sure, you could spend hd on a short rest to heal damage. Or, you can absorb your levels worth of damage, and only use hd to heal the overflow. That latter sounds far better to me.

[Dork_Forge]

Because spending HD to heal during S rests well net a higher EHP than trying to keep the THP up and not 'waste' any. Artificers have high avoidance as a baseline and the armorer cranks that up a little higher with plate and spells like mirror image. Once they get more than 3-4 uses a day it's easier to spare one up front but there is also a strong possibility of someone else having a better source of THP to act as a max hp extension.

Just two thoughts on this:

-HD are more valuable in some ways than uses of Defensive Field, as DF fully regenerates every long rest, whereas Hit Die do not (and arguably you'd find yourself in a worse position if you ran out of hit die than if you ran out of DF uses

Maybe I'm missing some sources? Temp hp handouts for other PCs/the party at large don't seem that abundant in context of how many options there are:

-The thp turret for the Artillerist is a good example, but ime players will often self rule out doubling up on most classes (though Fighter seems an excpetion, primarily because of the diverse playstyle differences to be had)

-The Glamour Bard is another option, I have a player playing one in a weekly game and the thp is pretty devastating, but it also means that he rarely inspires people since it competes for BI and from the forums and personally experience seems like one of the lesser played colleges.

-Inspiring Leader, a good feat for sure, but feats are a premium and I've mostly seen this talked about online rather than in play (obviously annecdotal table differences)

-Twilight Domain, far too new to comment on really, I think it will be a popular domain but it eats up a Channel Divinity and is more an in combat source rather than preemptive

-Celestial Warlock, main hurdles here are the higher level and keeping a Warlock single classed (it is one of the best patrons to do so on though)

Off the top of my head it doesn't really seem that likely that there will be a source of thp from party members, the sheer number of options to choose from see to that.

[stoutstien]

Just two thoughts on this:

-HD are more valuable in some ways than uses of Defensive Field, as DF fully regenerates every long rest, whereas Hit Die do not (and arguably you'd find yourself in a worse position if you ran out of hit die than if you ran out of DF uses

Maybe I'm missing some sources? Temp hp handouts for other PCs/the party at large don't seem that abundant in context of how many options there are:

-The thp turret for the Artillerist is a good example, but ime players will often self rule out doubling up on most classes (though Fighter seems an excpetion, primarily because of the diverse playstyle differences to be had)

-The Glamour Bard is another option, I have a player playing one in a weekly game and the thp is pretty devastating, but it also means that he rarely inspires people since it competes for BI and from the forums and personally experience seems like one of the lesser played colleges.

-Inspiring Leader, a good feat for sure, but feats are a premium and I've mostly seen this talked about online rather than in play (obviously annecdotal table differences)

-Twilight Domain, far too new to comment on really, I think it will be a popular domain but it eats up a Channel Divinity and is more an in combat source rather than preemptive

-Celestial Warlock, main hurdles here are the higher level and keeping a Warlock single classed (it is one of the best patrons to do so on though)

Off the top of my head it doesn't really seem that likely that there will be a source of thp from party members, the sheer number of options to choose from see to that.

Depending on play style. From what I've seen groups tend to have at least one good source available in the same vein that they also have someone who can reverse death and redundancy of emergency healing.

I'm saying the armor should never preemptively use the temporary hit points but spiking it earlier won't necessarily mean that you are preventing resource drain for the party. if you go through a couple easy encounters some of those temporary hit points are going to get eaten up by relatively weak attacks that are of no real where when you hit a deadly ++ encounter having more fields can save the party some spells and actions. which in dire situations is the most important resource.

**YMMV on gameplay style. 5 minute work days and predictable encounter schemes would allow for pre-use of the DF where entering each encounter unsure of the difficulty beforehand and open-ended day length would promote more conservative approaches.**

[JackalTornMoons]

I've been messing around with the idea of a minotaur STRarmorer that tanks/controls via guardian gauntlets/booming blade/BA minotaur shove. You'd make yourself a headband of intellect later on. Not sure how effective it'd be, but it seems fun at least.

[J-H]

So this may be a good thread for it - when an Armorer enters an Antimagic Field/cone, does he lose the "not hindered by plate armor even with Str 10" ability?

[Quietus]

So this may be a good thread for it - when an Armorer enters an Antimagic Field/cone, does he lose the "not hindered by plate armor even with Str 10" ability?

Not at all, that isn't a magical ability.

[Silpharon]

I've been messing around with the idea of a minotaur STRarmorer that tanks/controls via guardian gauntlets/booming blade/BA minotaur shove. You'd make yourself a headband of intellect later on. Not sure how effective it'd be, but it seems fun at least.

I like it! Headband of Intellect makes sense in that scenario. Note that you might consider Armor of Magical Strength into Belt of Hill Giant Strength as an alternative, but the way you've laid it out is more thematic.

[Waazraath]

Armorer suffers a bit in combat compared to Battle Smith in early game (a BS should take Sharpshooter and with Repeating Shot Infusion on a Pistol, then swap to a hand crossbow once you get CBE -- you could be doing 3d6+15+30 damage, average 55.5, around level 8... IF you can proc advantage reliably), but Armorer has more role versatility (stealth mode) and better AoE spells (Thunderwave, Shatter, Lightning Bolt, etc.).

Once SSI comes online at level 11, Armorer quickly outclasses Battle Smith in damage output whenever there are 3+ enemies to hit with Shatter (delivered by your Homunculus), and the more enemies there are, the more the gap widens. If you have enemies within 5 feet of each other, Green-Flame Blade on your Thunder Gauntlets also is a hefty increase in damage. Additionally, if you can pick up the Illusionist's Bracers and Magic Initiate (Find Familiar), you can use your bonus action to deliver a SECOND GFB (14d+24 damage total at level 17), plus your familiar can use your SSI freely for +3/6/9/12d8 damage (for 1-4 Shatter targets), and your reaction can be used to deliver another melee attack for 1d8+7.

Two GFBs at level 17 plus your Guardian reaction attack with +2 enhanced weapon on your gauntlets is an average of 98.5 damage per round, plus 13.5/27/40.5/54 damage for Shattering 1-4 targets (average 112/125.5/139/152.5 damage). It's a little situational, but you'll be crushing waves of enemies in close quarters. Even if you can't get the 5' splash damage off GFB, you're only losing 6d8+10 fire damage (average 37 off the top). If you have War Caster, that's replacing your d8+7 reaction attack for potentially a third GFB at 7d8+12 if you can get an AoO.

Meanwhile a Battle Smith with repeating shot on a hand crossbow, SS+CBE, is doing 3d6+18+30, or average 58.5 damage per round IF you can reliably get advantage to use Sharpshooter (which of course an Armorer could also try with an Infiltrator build, which at higher levels is zapping for 5d6+14+30 per round with free advantage on the second attack, before you even Shatter). Throw on Arcane Shot a handful of times for +4d6 (14 average) for 72.5. However, the Battle Smith's Warding-Bond-SSI strategy basically gives you permanent resistance to all damage 10 hours a day. Assuming your Steel Defender never gets KO'd, that's doubling your hitpoints, while a max level Armorer is just getting 20x6=120 THP per day (maybe 75% bonus to HP depending on your Con).

Resistance all the time is a pretty amazing feature, but the Armorer has far more versatility with 2 extra infusions, stealth mode, and the ability to drop greater invisibility or lightning bolt (you'll definitely want to use the Spell-Refueling Ring for an extra 3rd level slot). Not to mention you're not trapped by the SS+CBE combo so you can take sweet utility half-feats to boost Int like Telekinetic, Fey Touched, etc. (On the other hand, a Battle Smith could have a Steel Defender AND a Homunculus which is also pretty fun and adds a little extra combat utility--but because your infusions are more limited you're potentially sacrificing the ability to make another party member really shine.)

I would say that overall the Armorer runs a bit behind the Battle Smith in early game, may be neck and neck at level 11 (situational Shatter could yield VERY high damage output depending on what your DM throws at you/how you manage the battlefield), and clearly pulls ahead at level 15. Also, as a general matter, I think the output of Sharpshooter is slightly overestimated. When you run the stats, yes, it's strictly better than a regular attack most of the time (even without advantage, against lower ACs), but probabilistically the damage increase is not as great as it seems because you will sometimes miss in the long run.

Some things regarding this comparison between Armorer and Battle Smith, bolded for reference:
- In these examples the Armorer doesn't have 2 extra infusions, cause one of those is the homunculus (casting those shatters)
- As for shatter and damage: ymmv by campaign, but I think this is a bit optimistic. At lvl 11+ most foes will make their con save, and my experience is that it's a rare occasion where you'll hit more than 2 enemies at the same time;
- as for the Warding bond trick: it's very nice, and powerful, but I like enhance ability (dex) as well. Provide your entire party 2 times 2 hours with advantage on initiative. Very hard to quantify, but an extra turn for a fighter with 3 (or 4) attacks and GWM or SS goes a long way in extra damage. Any artificer can do that, and you have a few uses of EA for utility skill/tool improvement.
- I'd never take illusionist's bracers into a comparision like this. It's crazy good, but also blatantly overpowered in a splat that's not exactly reputed for it's fine balance (backgrounds, ahum). I've never seen 'em at a table, and don't think I've played in any 5e games where they would every be considered an option.
- (edit, forgotten): I think you're underselling the versatility of the Battle Smith a bit due to not mentioning several features. First the defender, it can be used in the tactical positioning game, blocking corridors, etc; second, its prime use (even when not attacking with it due to CBE) is working, that is providing a decent debuff every round (disadvantage against 1 attack); third, it has a very good passive perception, helping scouting in a party without somebody with expertise in perception a lot; fourth, with arcane jolt BS has a Healing word that doesn't even cost a bonus action. This all helps the Artificer in the roles of debuffer, healer and scout.

For the rest lots of decent points you make.

[Arkhios]

I've been messing around with the idea of a minotaur STRarmorer that tanks/controls via guardian gauntlets/booming blade/BA minotaur shove. You'd make yourself a headband of intellect later on. Not sure how effective it'd be, but it seems fun at least.

I've been toying around with a similar idea.

I have a Paladin with Str 18, Dex 9, Con 16, Int 11, Wis 10, Cha 16, which technically would make it possible for him to multiclass with either artificer or wizard, if I boosted his int by 2 with next ASI. His pre-adventurer vocation was a smith, and his human bonus skill proficiency is Arcana, so both would make sense thematically; Artificer maybe slightly more. Anyway, both Armorer and Battle Smith would be interesting, and since he already has Str 18, I'm in no rush getting it higher, and I could wait a while and create Headband of Intellect for him, to improve his arcane abilities from Artificer.

Plus, there's certainly something cool about a hybrid of Paladin/Artificer

[Quaryon]

Some things regarding this comparison between Armorer and Battle Smith, bolded for reference:
- In these examples the Armorer doesn't have 2 extra infusions, cause one of those is the homunculus (casting those shatters)
True, but as a Battle Smith I would also want a Homunculus for utility.


- As for shatter and damage: ymmv by campaign, but I think this is a bit optimistic. At lvl 11+ most foes will make their con save, and my experience is that it's a rare occasion where you'll hit more than 2 enemies at the same time;
Save DC would be 17-19 (8 + PB 4 + Int 5 + 1 or 2 for All-Purpose Tool, although it's arguable whether that applies to your SSI). Foes would need a +6-8 con save to make it half the time. I admit large foes are likely to resist, but perhaps not frailer minions or spellcasters. Also I think given the spread of a Shatter, 3 targets is likely to work out at least decently often. But then, maybe I'm mostly not in battles in wide open spaces.

- as for the Warding bond trick: it's very nice, and powerful, but I like enhance ability (dex) as well. Provide your entire party 2 times 2 hours with advantage on initiative. Very hard to quantify, but an extra turn for a fighter with 3 (or 4) attacks and GWM or SS goes a long way in extra damage. Any artificer can do that, and you have a few uses of EA for utility skill/tool improvement.
I agree, this could potentially achieve greater party DPR for either Armorer or Battle Smith.

- I'd never take illusionist's bracers into a comparision like this. It's crazy good, but also blatantly overpowered in a splat that's not exactly reputed for it's fine balance (backgrounds, ahum). I've never seen 'em at a table, and don't think I've played in any 5e games where they would every be considered an option.
It's a Very Rare item, so the material CR (per Xanathar's) would be 13-18. Basically you're unlikely to be able to craft it until late Tier 3 or early Tier 4. But if you look at what other classes are capable of at those levels, I think you might be able to persuade a DM to let you go for it. It also takes 125 days of downtime to make so it really depends on your DM's campaign style. Or maybe your DM is super generous and will just let you track down a set.

- (edit, forgotten): I think you're underselling the versatility of the Battle Smith a bit due to not mentioning several features. First the defender, it can be used in the tactical positioning game, blocking corridors, etc; second, its prime use (even when not attacking with it due to CBE) is working, that is providing a decent debuff every round (disadvantage against 1 attack); third, it has a very good passive perception, helping scouting in a party without somebody with expertise in perception a lot; fourth, with arcane jolt BS has a Healing word that doesn't even cost a bonus action. This all helps the Artificer in the roles of debuffer, healer and scout.
Maybe I was. The defender pet is very cool. But its benefits are still mostly combat related (whereas the Armorer can completely switch to a stealth role in 1 hour). It has some utility as a scout but it would be better if it were smaller/could fly/had higher Int (although some of these could be rectified with Infusions--Winged Boots and Headband of Intellect? Haha).

[Amdy_vill]

I'm relatively unfamiliar with the artificer class, but the artificer definitely confused me the most. What are you supposed to do with it? Is it supposed to he a spellcaster in heavy armor, or a frontline fighter? I'm confused. I'm super interested in hearing how you guys would build one, specifically a great use of the armor either defensively or offensively.

there has always been a mechanical problem with artificers even back when they were called tinkerers. they are supposed to show the melding of science, magic, and chemistry(Both magic and mundan). mechanical, in 5e they are a filler class, like monks and clerics they can fill a number of role relitlivy well but no role perfectly like a class meant to do that specifically. Armorer seems to be intended as a tank, but it can also be a lot of other things due to its increased infusions.

[anthon]

Coming from a Genre based style of RP instead of RAW tactical strategy sim,

i can only say we had one or two artificers in our games at the comic shop, and what I do recall, is that they "built stuff", and the stuff could be used in some cases by the group members, and in other cases, only by the caster.

We didn't like the expiry of enchantment classes and we didn't like "inventions" that only work for the caster.


We generally think outside the dps/tank/healer/controller rubric that came out of video games, so to us, an Artificer is like an Engineer, Blacksmith, or Enchanter. We had Artificer classes back in AD&D too but they required lots of money and produced imitation magic items, sorta like imitation crab: tasty, but not the real thing.

Artificer thus doesn't have the standard quad role. You can consider them a Controller or Logistics class, similar to having a servant with a donkey bearing several sacks full of useful goods. Thus the Artificer is a Monte Hall (has/makes whatever you need), or Bag of Holding role, rather than strict combat. In a group of 4+ or especially large groups, such a character is welcome.