What Rogue for Warlock?

[elyktsorb]

I'm trying to figure out the best Rogue subclass to pair with Warlock. Specifically a Genie Warlock. My mind first went to Swashbuckler because I'm going to be investing in Charisma, but I wanted to gain some insight and see if anyone had any thoughts on it before I decided to go with what I thought.

[Gignere]

I'm trying to figure out the best Rogue subclass to pair with Warlock. Specifically a Genie Warlock. My mind first went to Swashbuckler because I'm going to be investing in Charisma, but I wanted to gain some insight and see if anyone had any thoughts on it before I decided to go with what I thought.

What do you want out of rogue? What do you want out of warlock?

What is your planned level split?

[elyktsorb]

What do you want out of rogue? What do you want out of warlock?

What is your planned level split?

Well I want the Rogue for single target damage and thieves tools pretty much. The Warlock is more of the supportive side. The split is going to be completely even unless I can see a reason to make it more one or the other.

I will state the the Rogue/Warlock is more for the character concept than it is to be mechanically powerful. But since that's what I'm doing I want to see what I can get out of it regardless.

[JellyPooga]

Arcane Trickster is always a good shout, to expand your spells known if nothing else. Magical Ambush isn't going to come online until Tier 3, most like, but is a nice addition to the Warlocks casting. I wouldn't worry too much about Intelligence if you're primarily using magic for support and you never know whether you'll stumble across a Headband of Intellect!

[Gignere]

Well I want the Rogue for single target damage and thieves tools pretty much. The Warlock is more of the supportive side. The split is going to be completely even unless I can see a reason to make it more one or the other.

I will state the the Rogue/Warlock is more for the character concept than it is to be mechanically powerful. But since that's what I'm doing I want to see what I can get out of it regardless.

What do you mean by support? Like are you going for Chain and getting the uber familiar?

It actually sounds like you shouldn’t even go for an even split at all. Like if I was doing this I may just go just enough to pick up Eldritch Smite, grab a couple of useful invocations. Maybe level 6 for the at will flight but no further.

I would just put in enough points 13 charisma to just qualify for Warlock.

I would second Arcane Trickster. The expanded spell list and spell slots would be great and at low levels AT is definitely one of the highest damage subclass as they can booming blade without needing a feat to get it.

I would work in Elven Accuracy and abuse darkness and devil sight.

[RogueJK]

Well I want the Rogue for single target damage and thieves tools pretty much. The Warlock is more of the supportive side. The split is going to be completely even unless I can see a reason to make it more one or the other.

A basic single target damage comparison:

A Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+4+3d6 Sneak Attack. That's an average of 19 points of damage.
A Level 5 Warlock with 18 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 2d10+8. That's an average of 17 points of damage.
A Level 2 Warlock/Level 3 Rogue with 16 DEX and 17 CHA is doing 2d8+3+2d6 (19) with Booming Blade Rapier or 2d10+6 (15) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.

A Level 8 Rogue with 20 Dex and a Rapier is doing 1d8+5+4d6 (23.5).
A Level 8 Warlock with 20 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 2d10+10 (19).
A Level 4 Warlock/Level 4 Rogue with 18 DEX and 18 CHA is doing 2d8+4+2d6 (21) with a Booming Blade Rapier or 2d10+8 (17) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.

A Level 11 Rogue with 20 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+5+6d6 (30.5).
A Level 11 Warlock with 20 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 3d10+15 (30.5).
A Level 6 Warlock/Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and 18 CHA is doing 3d8+4+3d6 (28) with a Booming Blade Rapier or 3d10+12 (27.5) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.


So if you're wanting Single Target Damage specifically, splitting your levels puts you a bit behind that curve at many levels, and the Rogue's Sneak Attack doesn't make up for it or really add any additional significant Single Target Damage to your Warlock. (Unless you're dead-set on being in melee, in which case a Rogue/Genie Warlock with Rapier+Sneak Attack is certainly better than just a Genie Warlock.) And these simple comparison calculations aren't taking into account stuff like Hex or other ways to further boost damage; you can find tactics in any setup to increase damage in various ways. There are other considerations too, like either the single-classed Rogue or single-classed Warlock having access to higher level spellcasting and class abilities than the 50/50 Rogue/Warlock.


As is generally true for most multiclassing, it's best to pick one "primary" class in which to invest most of your levels, and leave the other class to just a small dip. This not only allows you to gain the benefits of higher level abilities from your "primary" class, but also doesn't water down your ASIs or require you to have MAD stats (so you can focus on having Max DEX and a Moderate CHA, or vice versa, instead of needing both a High DEX and a High CHA).

This could be something like a Mastermind Rogue 3/Genies Warlock X, using Agonizing EB for Single Target Damage with higher level spellcasting and Warlock abilities, plus 3 levels of Mastermind Rogue for some skills and Expertise, Cunning Action when needed, and a reliable use for your otherwise oft-unused Bonus Action through Master of Tactics' 30 foot Bonus Action Help. Or just Rogue 1/Warlock X if you just want the skills and Expertise, which wouldn't delay your Genie spellcasting as much.

The opposite could be something like a Genie Warlock 1 or 2/Swashbuckler Rogue X. This one can handle itself in melee nearly as well as a straight Rogue, plus has a few Warlock spells/cantrips, a little bit of extra Genie damage that scales with Proficiency, and possibly a couple Invocations.


Or you can avoid multiclassing altogether in some cases with just a specific race and/or background. Something like a Criminal background Genie Warlock would be able to have Thieves Tools proficiency and a couple Rogue-related skills. If you choose the Goblin race, you even get quasi-Cunning Action too, all without any Rogue levels to slow down your Warlock spell/ability progression.

[Gignere]

Consider:

A Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+4+3d6 Sneak Attack. That's an average of 19 points of damage.

A Level 5 Warlock with 18 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 2d10+8. That's an average of 17 points of damage.

A Level 2 Warlock/Level 3 Rogue with 16 DEX and 17 CHA is doing 1d8+3+2d6 (14.5) with Rapier or 2d10+6 (15) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.


A Level 11 Rogue with 20 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+5+6d6 (30.5).

A Level 11 Warlock with 20 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 3d10+15 (30.5).

A Level 6 Warlock/Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and 18 CHA is doing 1d8+4+3d6 (19) with a Rapier or 3d10+12 (27.5) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.


So if you're wanting Single Target damage, splitting your levels puts you behind that curve, and the Rogue's Sneak Attack doesn't make up for it. (Unless you're dead-set on being in melee, in which case Rapier+Sneak Attack is better than just Rapier, but still not as good as staying at range and just using EB.)


As usual with most multiclassing, it's best to pick one "primary" class in which to invest most of your levels, and leave the other class to just a small dip. Or you can avoid multiclassing altogether in some cases with just a specific background.

Something like a Criminal background Genie Warlock would be able to have solid single-target damage through EB plus Thieves Tools proficiency and several Rogue-related skills.

DPR with EB and agonizing is suppose to be competitive with rogue. However it’s only at the exact level jumps of EB.

In between level jumps the rogue will outpace the warlock especially the few levels before EB gains another bolt.

For example I am playing an AT in a party with a warlock with Agonizing EB. We are level 4 and I do 1d8 + 2d6 + 4 (15.5 avg) damage versus d10 + 4 damage (9.5). I’ve been doing roughly 50% more than the warlock’s damage since level 3 and more damage than the lock starting from level 1. The lock will pull closer with my damage at level 5.

[elyktsorb]

Consider:

A Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+4+3d6 Sneak Attack. That's an average of 19 points of damage.

A Level 5 Warlock with 18 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 2d10+8. That's an average of 17 points of damage.

A Level 2 Warlock/Level 3 Rogue with 16 DEX and 17 CHA is doing 1d8+3+2d6 (14.5) with Rapier or 2d10+6 (15) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.


A Level 11 Rogue with 20 DEX and a Rapier is doing 1d8+5+6d6 (30.5).

A Level 11 Warlock with 20 CHA and Agonizing Eldritch Blast is doing 3d10+15 (30.5).

A Level 6 Warlock/Level 5 Rogue with 18 DEX and 18 CHA is doing 1d8+4+3d6 (19) with a Rapier or 3d10+12 (27.5) with Agonizing Eldritch Blast.


So if you're wanting Single Target damage, splitting your levels puts you behind that curve, and the Rogue's Sneak Attack doesn't make up for it. (Unless you're dead-set on being in melee, in which case Rapier+Sneak Attack is better than just Rapier, but still not as good as staying at range and just using EB.)


As usual with most multiclassing, it's best to pick one "primary" class in which to invest most of your levels, and leave the other class to just a small dip. Or you can avoid multiclassing altogether in some cases with just a specific background.

Something like a Criminal background Genie Warlock would be able to have solid single-target damage through EB plus Thieves Tools proficiency and several Rogue-related skills.


Well technically a level 2 Genie Warlock / level 3 Rogue with 16 dex and 17 cha is doing 1d8+3+3+2d6 with a Rapier.

But then all this is telling me is I should just stick to 1 or 2 levels in Warlock. Which is pretty fine for me all things considered. I'm not overly set on having 1 be more leveled than the other, I did say I needed a reason to skew the levels, and this is well enough a reason.

[RogueJK]

DPR with EB and agonizing is suppose to be competitive with rogue. However it’s only at the exact level jumps of EB.

In between level jumps the rogue will outpace the warlock especially the few levels before EB gains another bolt.


Right. While you were typing that, I had edited my post to include an in-between example.

[Gignere]

Well technically a level 2 Genie Warlock / level 3 Rogue with 16 dex and 17 cha is doing 1d8+3+3+2d6 with a Rapier.

But then all this is telling me is I should just stick to 1 or 2 levels in Warlock. Which is pretty fine for me all things considered. I'm not overly set on having 1 be more leveled than the other, I did say I needed a reason to skew the levels, and this is well enough a reason.

I think an argument can be made for going to 6 lock, earlier/only way to access Shadowblade, at will flight, as well as picking up some nifty invocations, maybe two attacks as well.

Consider a level 9 rogue / 6 warlock. You can
do 2x3d8 + 2xdex + proficiency + 5d6 damage + a smite for 4d8. If you can get offturn sneak attack that’s another 3d8 + 5d6 + 4 + proficiency.

[elyktsorb]

Though I think I will ask, if I wanted to make a Melee Genie Warlock, what's the best way to do that? Since I think that's more what I wanted to do initially, I just assumed Rogue would be the best choice to go with.

[RogueJK]

Though I think I will ask, if I wanted to make a Melee Genie Warlock, what's the best way to do that? Since I think that's more what I wanted to do initially, I just assumed Rogue would be the best choice to go with.

Here are a few different ways to do a Melee Genie Warlock:

Option 1) DEX-based single powerful attack using Weapon + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack. This one greatly benefits from Rogue levels, but you'd want more than just a few Rogue levels with this option, in order to maximize your Sneak Attack dice. This option would be best as a Rogue with Warlock dip, something like a Warlock 1 or 2/Swashbuckler X using Rapier + Booming Blade + Sneak Attack + Cunning Action Disengage or the free "disengage" from Swashbuckler. High DEX and moderate CHA. Use your handful of Warlock cantrips/spells and Invocations to boost your Rogue abilities, with stuff like Disguise Self, Mage Hand, Minor Illusion, Expeditious Retreat, etc. You could possibly even go 3 levels of Warlock, choosing either Pact of the Tome with Book of Ancient Secrets invocation or Pact of the Chain, getting a Familiar either way for scouting and to Help for Advantage to trigger Sneak Attack, plus a 2nd level spell like Invisibility or Mirror Image. (Or you could also get a Familiar with a Warlock 1 or 2/Arcane Trickster X build, but an AT would required a good INT as well as CHA and DEX, so you're starting to get pretty MAD.)

Option 2) DEX-based single (slightly less) powerful attack using Shadow Blade + Booming Blade + a little Sneak Attack. This is the more Warlock-heavy version of the above, going something like Swashbuckler 3/Warlock X. You'd use a Booming Blade Rapier + 2d6 Sneak Attack in normal fights, and add in Upcast Shadow Blade for fights when you need to tack on more melee damage. This gets you the option of higher level Warlock spells/abilities/invocations, at the cost of significantly reduced Sneak Attack damage. Booming Blade+Shadow Blade, even with their slower scaling, doesn't quite match the additional melee damage from Option 1's more rapidly scaling Sneak Attack. And you're having to spend your Concentration and half your available spell slots every time you cast Shadow Blade, which doesn't leave much room for other Warlock spellcasting. Tome or Chain Pact are still your best bet here, since Sword Pact's Thirsting Blade doesn't apply to Shadow Blade (it's not your Pact Weapon) so you don't get any real benefit there. Tomelock with the Ritual book in particular would allow you to also still be a utility caster out of combat with Ritual spells, despite nearly all your spell slots being eaten up by Shadow Blades.

Option 3) STR-based multiple heavy attacks with a Greatsword or Polearm and the Great Weapon Master feat, using Pact of the Blade with invocations like Thirsting Blade, Improved Pact Weapon, and Eldritch Smite. Can potentially get a third attack with the Polearm Master feat. Rogue doesn't help with this one, so you'd need to get stuff like Thieves Tools and some Rogue skills from your Background if you still want that aspect. (But since you're focusing on STR and CHA, your DEX wouldn't be great anyway, and you'll be wearing armor that interferes with Stealth.) You'd want nearly all Warlock levels with a 1ish level dip into another class like Fighter or Cleric for Heavy Armor. I'd probably go a Variant Human or Custom Lineage with Polearm Master as the free feat, and the 1st level in Fighter for Defense fighting style and CON save proficiency to help you keep Concentration. Use Heavy Armor and STR-based polearm, and just play as a normal PAM Fighter for 1st level, then switch to all Genie Warlock levels from there, eventually taking Great Weapon Master at Warlock 8. Focus on a high STR and moderate CHA. Use your Warlock spells primarily for utility and to boost your damage output and defense with stuff like Hex, Armor of Agathys, Mirror Image, Misty Step, Spirit Shroud, etc., since your CHA modifier won't be as high as your STR, and your attack/save spells won't be as strong as a dedicated Warlock spellcaster with max CHA. Or just use most of your slots for Eldritch Smites, especially on Critical Hits. You'll hit hard, and have a good AC (19 with Plate and Defense fighting style), but you'll still have Warlock Hit Dice. So you'll want a good CON score, and some help from magical defensive spells and Temp HP from stuff like Armor of Agathys, in order to be able to hang in the front lines as effectively as a Fighter, Paladin, or Barbarian.