Tips on Rationalizing/Dealing With the Economy

[Destro2119]

So recently my players have been complaining about how the prices of common items seem to be too high for commoners to access. Things like low-level potions, tindertwigs, backpacks, and waterskins. Especially since how the default setting of Pathfinder, Golarion, is not even medieval.

Thus, I have compiled a short list of tips on how you can deal with this.

1. Realize the official printed "economy" in the rulebooks is a voodoo science and meant only for PCs

This is probably one of the most important points. Just look at the trade goods table (which BTW, I could swear no printed AP or module has ever used). Realistically, no way in hell could a merchant make a living trying to trade goods that are always worth the same amount everywhere. The existence of merchants, shipping, and trade in canonical sources is conclusive evidence that the PC prices are not tied to the "reality" of NPC prices. The same goes for selling magic items, or, if you are playing SF, selling items for only 10% of the price.

2. Assume prices differ from region to region, or from settlement to settlement

Another important point is to realize that a box of tindertwigs, for instance, will differ a lot in cost if you were trying to find it in a metropolis vs a twenty-man thorp. That is to say, assume that the prices of common items will cost much less in developed areas or developed or more peaceful nations than in more "wild" areas. Think rural vendors vs 1900s country town general stores vs established shops in London. Essentially, give your players a quick [x gp] discount (or increase) when it makes sense to do so, to make buying common items much easier.

3. NPCs have WBL too

This gets forgotten a lot, but it still stands that the average NPCs will have a pretty packet of cash at even level 1. Note that this isn't tied up in their houses or anything; it represents personal possessions. Therefore most NPCs (especially the weirdly high level PF ones) will be able to afford most things they could need/want.

4. Obligatory Links
https://www.reddit.com/r/Pathfinder_RPG/comments/6jl4py/fixing_the_pathfinder_economy/

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?525481-Commoners-are-richer-than-you-think-Pathfinder-edition

https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?443776-D-amp-D-Commoners-Make-Plenty-of-Money


Thanks for listening!

[Doctor Despair]

Quick in-universe fix: part of the Profession (Merchant) check is to be able to evaluate the person they're selling to. They can tell you're an adventurer and swimming in cash, so they upcharge you a bunch.

[Destro2119]

LoL. The merchants must be powerful indeed, if they can express their power over the rulebooks themselves!

BTW, I know there was a giantitp comic on this.

[Kazyan]

No one can make an economy that the players won't poke holes in, because economies are impossible to understand. Make a loaf of bread cost 100 GP, then look your players in the eyes and dare them to say something about it while the BBEG's army is growing.

[Destro2119]

TBH, the whole economy thing really ties back to how, at the end of the day, no one really wants a realistic "Dung Ages Europe" setting where you are in danger of contracting filth fever every round. So I make things cheaper for BOTH the commoners and the adventurers since nothing makes much sense if you leave prices as-is. I mean, realistically, potion makers would find ways to get access to ingredients more cheaply (crafting is NOT throwing gold on a tabletop and waving your hands over it) and then make more of them at lesser prices, but that is all another thread, I feel.

[AvatarVecna]

idk what the 3.5 solution to problem 1 was, but in Pathfinder this is the point of the changes made to the Appraise skill (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/Appraise/#Bargaining): just because the player's know what an item is worth in the book, doesn't mean their characters know in-universe - and even if they do know, that doesn't mean they're going to pay full price. There's rules for haggling, and I think it's a bad assumption to say "merchants do absolutely no haggling over specific price as part of the course of standard business". Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and even Intimidate can be relevant.

[gijoemike]

This is meant to be an average price the world standard market can adjust off. Teleport is a thing.

War time? +50% price
High demand? +10% price
Low demand? -10% price
In major city that is part of a trade route? -10% price
In Major city that is not a trade route? standard price
Is it considered refined? +20% price.
In large town? +10% price
In small hamlet? +25% price
Very very scarce but not unique? +75%
Scarce in area? +25% price
Surplus in the area? -25% price
Extreme surplus? -75% price


Also, appraisal of items and bartering is actually very important. Dealing with a merchant should require several rolls that can adjust the price up or down.

So, if one is in a small hamlet during wartime and you need a scarce item that is considered refined (Think a nice wine, or tailored made clothes, dining china, sliver cutlery) and you happen to be terrible at haggling, you could easily be looking at 250% to 300% markup. Yes it is highway robbery.

But if you are looking for tindersticks in the alchemical capital of the world there is a good chance that cheap ale from the tavern is more expensive. Alchemist fire would be very cheap as well.

The real trick is the mages can teleport and ring gate items from across the planet things become very tricky. If they know the markets and where items are produced then they can always get better priced items for the cost of a few teleports. This isn't just PC but NPC as well. In fact, the entire economy portion of D&D can become its own game. People don't want to play that game though they want to stab goblins and orcs.

[Destro2119]

I agree very much with this. It especially bothered me that things that take a relatively low level of craftsmanship like backpacks or waterskins costs so much, and the whole point of this was to lower prices for those things. On the subject of teleport, it would be far more efficient to set up gate hubs using greater demiplane to allow many more goods to be transported. It is only slightly more complex and actually costs less than teleport circles. Or else just create magic airships to transport things, or bind lantern archons for same-minute delivery.

[Efrate]

It is like physics. Hand wave it because, and get with the stabbing.

Any and pretty much all of the systems fall apart on examination. Pick a part. Think about of "realistically" for a short while and it crumbles. The suction is to just not.

Teleporting wizards lends quickly to Tippyverse. Encounter distribution tends to civilization crumbling because monster > people the vast majority of time and it doesnt make sense why survival of the fittest hasn't worked out to exterminate most humanoids. Healing magic and resetting spell traps should eliminate all disease. Food is likewise easily taken care of for every one. Undead create a freedom from drudgery work and are a super cost efficient labor force. Cows use the stats of bison and are stronger than most lower level threats, cowboys literally could eliminate all the low level threats making adventurers surplus at best, and also eliminating leveling opportunities which then pendulums back to bigger stronger monsters with nothing to threaten them. Planar binding could easily solve many other problems, spend a 100 years keeping a city safe and people healed with at will SLA a very good bargain for most goodly outsiders.

It goes on and on. The world cannot exist if you break it down, except as a "functioning" backdrop for PCs to do the stabbing and such.

[Destro2119]

idk what the 3.5 solution to problem 1 was, but in Pathfinder this is the point of the changes made to the Appraise skill (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/skills/Appraise/#Bargaining): just because the player's know what an item is worth in the book, doesn't mean their characters know in-universe - and even if they do know, that doesn't mean they're going to pay full price. There's rules for haggling, and I think it's a bad assumption to say "merchants do absolutely no haggling over specific price as part of the course of standard business". Bluff, Diplomacy, Sense Motive, and even Intimidate can be relevant.

A bit late, but my personal problem with that is that it just something that GMs should know to do anyways, that shouldn't be governed by rules.