Cash For XP Question

[Sparky McDibben]

I'm starting up a new campaign soon, and I need some advice on handling experience points.

I'm starting up a western-themed hexcrawl, using firearms of my design that are set up to deal a lot of damage (pistols, for example, deal 1d10+Dex; shotguns require a saving throw against 3d6 piercing damage). This means I can keep using low-level bandits even at high level and still pose an existential threat to even high-level PCs. However, it requires an adjustment to my normal method of awarding XP (which is usually based on the XP of the monsters defeated, bypassed, or killed), since there's not that much XP to had in this way. However, since a hexcrawl is meant to be explored, I decided to award XP for each sp (see below), since sp is the currency of this setting.

My proposed system is thus: 1 experience point awarded per silver piece spent in a town. Party splits treasure evenly, even for members not present that night. Monsters provide experience points equal to 1/10th of the value that would be provided by their CR (so a bandit is worth 5 XP). Encumbrance and time will be tracked, and every ten minutes in a dungeon (or combat environment) will trigger a random encounter check.

Question:
I'm looking for a sense check on this proposed system. Are there any edge cases I should be aware of? Any weird rules interactions? How does this change player incentive structures? Please include if you have used a cash for XP system in your games before, and whether you were a player or a DM at the time. Please do not suggestion milestone XP; I have considered it and discarded the idea.

Thank you.

[MaxWilson]

Question:
I'm looking for a sense check on this proposed system. Are there any edge cases I should be aware of? Any weird rules interactions? How does this change player incentive structures? Please include if you have used a cash for XP system in your games before, and whether you were a player or a DM at the time. Please do not suggestion milestone XP; I have considered it and discarded the idea.

Thank you.

Seems fine. I've done something similar, only instead of giving out 1/10 XP for monsters I just multiplied the XP table by 10x, which is the same thing. (I also gave out XP on a 1:1 basis with gp, not sp, but again, same thing.)

Some of my players enjoyed it, others eventually came to prefer a faster levelling pace in a different campaign. It's definitely worth a shot, and it does let you set up a nice tension between buying better equipment and levelling up. Good luck with this--there aren't any obvious pitfalls you're overlooking and I hope the campaign goes well.

[kingcheesepants]

They get XP for spending money in town? So if one player wanted to buy a new gun or whatever he gets XP but if another player wanted to save up to buy some armor he doesn't? That seems a bit off to me. What about spending money outside of town or money gained through non adventuring means? If there are traveling merchants that they run across is spending some money with them going to mean they're less likely to level up? If one player decides to invest in the saloon or whatever and is getting a small recurring payout for that is he constantly leveling just a bit more than everyone else? Or is the whole group getting a split of his investment?

I've played in OSR style games where GP=XP before and it works but it changes the focus a bit. Players become a bit more take everything out of the dungeons to sell them and are a less prone to engage with enemies that they don't need to. The focus of getting as much treasure as possible makes everyone seem just a bit greedy and that combined with the encumbrance issues makes escorting the pack mules and carting all the loot out of the dungeon half the focus of the session.

[MaxWilson]

They get XP for spending money in town? So if one player wanted to buy a new gun or whatever he gets XP but if another player wanted to save up to buy some armor he doesn't? That seems a bit off to me.

I assumed the OP meant "spending money in town" as "spent offscreen on (handwave)" as opposed to "spent on actual goods with adventuring applications." That's how I've run it in the past. You might be funding a rebellion back home or buying presents for a love interest, but the practical effect is that you are converting gold directly to XP between adventures. If you buy actual adventuring gear with gold, that gold is no longer available for conversion to XP.

[JackPhoenix]

Well, one thing to note is that if the NPCs do more damage, their CR may go up, which means they'll be worth more XP, as XP value is derived from the CR.

Also, ask your players if they'd prefer this, or wouldn't mind slower levelling.

[Keravath]

AD&D awarded 1xp for each gp of treasure acquired so it has been a pretty common system in D&D over the years.

I would tend not to award the xp for each sp spent but rather for each sp earned (since some players may want to save sp for larger purchases and it would be unfair to not award them xp because the character happens to be a spendthrift) and then use the sp to supplement the monster xp when you think it appropriate. Or you could just use milestones and save yourself the effort and the book keeping :)

[MaxWilson]

AD&D awarded 1xp for each gp of treasure acquired so it has been a pretty common system in D&D over the years.

I would tend not to award the xp for each sp spent but rather for each sp earned (since some players may want to save sp for larger purchases and it would be unfair to not award them xp because the character happens to be a spendthrift) and then use the sp to supplement the monster xp when you think it appropriate. Or you could just use milestones and save yourself the effort and the book keeping :)

Gygax invented training costs as a gold sink for all the gold players needed to accumulate in order to get XP to level up. I've always thought that was an awkward and roundabout way of doing it, compared to just giving XP for gold "spent" on training/other screen goals.

I think it's perfectly fair to let players choose between spending gold to get better gear vs. spending gold to get more XP to become personally better. YMMV though.

[PhantomSoul]

One thing I'd clarify (assuming it's the case as it was the case in older editions, from what I gather from vague memories and the above posts) is that it's money spent on levelling, rather than just money spent in general. (Otherwise buy-sell-buy loops are essentially sources of considerable xp, and there's no tradeoff between levels and equipment, contrary to what may be a nice in-world and for-player decision. At that point, it's also easier to justify having fancier things for sale, too!)

[Sparky McDibben]

First of all, thanks so much to everyone who's giving me such great feedback! This is awesome and exactly why I love this community. You all are great!!


I've played in OSR style games where GP=XP before and it works but it changes the focus a bit. Players become a bit more take everything out of the dungeons to sell them and are a less prone to engage with enemies that they don't need to. The focus of getting as much treasure as possible makes everyone seem just a bit greedy and that combined with the encumbrance issues makes escorting the pack mules and carting all the loot out of the dungeon half the focus of the session.

That is exactly what I'm looking for, something grounded and not too completely friggin' nuts. Thank you!


I assumed the OP meant "spending money in town" as "spent offscreen on (handwave)" as opposed to "spent on actual goods with adventuring applications." That's how I've run it in the past. You might be funding a rebellion back home or buying presents for a love interest, but the practical effect is that you are converting gold directly to XP between adventures. If you buy actual adventuring gear with gold, that gold is no longer available for conversion to XP.

So, I probably should have thought about that. Thank God I have the Playground to fall back on! I actually meant "spent it on anything" but you point out a great tension I'm totally glossing over with this point:


[I]t does let you set up a nice tension between buying better equipment and levelling up.

The downside is that this creates another money sink in my game. I had already considered making equipment rather expensive as a sink. Now I'm thinking that having both is better, because it really makes that tension stick between levelling up and getting better stuff. Interesting.


Well, one thing to note is that if the NPCs do more damage, their CR may go up, which means they'll be worth more XP, as XP value is derived from the CR.

Also, ask your players if they'd prefer this, or wouldn't mind slower levelling.

I just handwave the impact on CR. I want to have a statblock I can just tweak and deploy, without worrying about impact on CR. That bandit is worth the same 50 XP whether it has a wand of fireballs or a rock. I've floated the idea with my player (this is for a one-on-one campaign) and she seems interested. Good point though - definitely something to lay out in terms of my expectation of $'s per level.


AD&D awarded 1xp for each gp of treasure acquired so it has been a pretty common system in D&D over the years.

I would tend not to award the xp for each sp spent but rather for each sp earned (since some players may want to save sp for larger purchases and it would be unfair to not award them xp because the character happens to be a spendthrift) and then use the sp to supplement the monster xp when you think it appropriate. Or you could just use milestones and save yourself the effort and the book keeping :)

You raise a good point, but if I award it for sp earned, it cuts out the "can we get it all back to town?" aspect, the "who the **** stole all our XP / money?" aspect, and the carousing mishaps aspect. That's a lot of drama to cut out for the sake of bookkeeping. Plus, I'm a financial analyst, so I love bookkeeping. :) Also, I don't like milestone and have already ruled that out.


Gygax invented training costs as a gold sink for all the gold players needed to accumulate in order to get XP to level up. I've always thought that was an awkward and roundabout way of doing it, compared to just giving XP for gold "spent" on training/other screen goals.

I think it's perfectly fair to let players choose between spending gold to get better gear vs. spending gold to get more XP to become personally better. YMMV though.

I think I'll go with this, and maybe marry it up to a modified version of Jeff Rients' Carousing mishap tables. Thanks!

Now, this does raise an interesting edge case: let's say my player wants to go gambling (using the XGtE rules) as a way to spend money on leveling up. What if she wins? I mean, it's unlikely, but it's bound to happen at least three times (the first time she tries it, probably the third time she tries it, and the second-to-last time she tries it - no math to support this, I just know my luck). I'm thinking I'd let her get both the XP and keep the silver, but she automatically triggers some kind of complication, whether that's someone calling her out as a cheat, acquiring a new rival, getting framed for a crime, etc.

Thoughts?

[MaxWilson]

I think I'll go with this, and maybe marry it up to a modified version of Jeff Rients' Carousing mishap tables. Thanks!

Now, this does raise an interesting edge case: let's say my player wants to go gambling (using the XGtE rules) as a way to spend money on leveling up. What if she wins? I mean, it's unlikely, but it's bound to happen at least three times (the first time she tries it, probably the third time she tries it, and the second-to-last time she tries it - no math to support this, I just know my luck). I'm thinking I'd let her get both the XP and keep the silver, but she automatically triggers some kind of complication, whether that's someone calling her out as a cheat, acquiring a new rival, getting framed for a crime, etc.

Thoughts?

For simplicity, I'd just go with "gold spent on Xanathar's gambling does not get you any XP, but if you make a profit you can of course convert that profit to XP per usual." That is, if you want to convert gold to XP, you get no other benefit from it, not even the opportunity to win more gold.

[DwarfFighter]

It seems obvious to just "wing it" and award xp based on the difficulty of encountered and achieving quest goals instead of trying to rework the CR and xp stuff. But...

It sounds like OP really wants a money=xp system.

[MaxWilson]

It seems obvious to just "wing it" and award xp based on the difficulty of encountered and achieving quest goals instead of trying to rework the CR and xp stuff. But...

It sounds like OP really wants a money=xp system.

One of the advantages of cash=xp over winging out is that it's more predictable for players so you get more player engagement. A map to a treasure worth 150,000 gp has a concrete value tied to something REAL to the player: XP. If they decide to pursue that opportunity instead of another (political advancement? Hunting down a lost relative?) they know what they're getting out of the deal, and if they pick a different one they know what they're potentially giving up or deferring.

Of course, not all players care about advancement and XP in the first place. But for those that do, IMO it's better not to wing it if you don't have to.

[DwarfFighter]

How about doing away with money and experience as two separate metrics and just using "souls" as a mono-currency for stuff? Kill a Goblin and earn 50 "soul points" that you can save for later, spending it on a snack or leveling up.

[MaxWilson]

How about doing away with money and experience as two separate metrics and just using "souls" as a mono-currency for stuff? Kill a Goblin and earn 50 "soul points" that you can save for later, spending it on a snack or leveling up.

No.

Gold-into-XP does not imply the ability to convert XP into gold. That's a different system and as your Goblin example illustrates an absurd one. Why would a food seller give you food for goblin deaths? If you got paid a bounty by the government then you could take that gold and give THAT to the food vendor, but trying to unify gold and XP is ridiculous. Also what would you do about encumbrance? The whole point of paying attention to gold is to make the game MORE grounded, but your suggestion makes it absurd.

Just no.

[DwarfFighter]

This would be based on the assumption that the game world recognizes your Goblin soul points as currency.

It works in Dark Souls, and I don't see a big difference between how that system treating experience as cash is at all different from treating cash as experience.

-DF

[Sparky McDibben]

For simplicity, I'd just go with "gold spent on Xanathar's gambling does not get you any XP, but if you make a profit you can of course convert that profit to XP per usual." That is, if you want to convert gold to XP, you get no other benefit from it, not even the opportunity to win more gold.

This makes sense and aligns with my goals. Thanks!


It seems obvious to just "wing it" and award xp based on the difficulty of encountered and achieving quest goals instead of trying to rework the CR and xp stuff. But...

It sounds like OP really wants a money=xp system.

I'm going to piggyback on Mr. Wilson's point here. There's a lot of stuff in D&D I'm comfortable relying on improv for, including whole adventures. That's all fine, in my opinion, because the players never see the other side of the screen. But XP is explicitly player-facing and ties into advancement. If you (as a player) know how to advance your character's ability, that frees you up because now you can care about other things than reading the DM's mind. This is why I dislike milestone XP - it basically forces me as a player to guess what hoops you want me to jump through before you feel I've "earned" a level. I'm probably not going to invest in property, nor do spell research, nor start my poetry society, because I don't know if the DM is going to give me XP for any of that. But if you know for a certainty that $X will equate to Y XP, you suddenly have a lot more freedom to interact with the setting, and an objective metric for tracking your character's progress toward their next level.

Now, to your point, I rely on improv heavily because this campaign runs nightly. I have basically no prep time, so I rely on procedural generation tools and improv the results. But that's also why having an agreed-upon metric for how to advance characters is so useful - it gives both me and the player one less thing to worry about. The default action for the game becomes "Is there treasure and where can I get some?"


How about doing away with money and experience as two separate metrics and just using "souls" as a mono-currency for stuff? Kill a Goblin and earn 50 "soul points" that you can save for later, spending it on a snack or leveling up.

So...is this just XP for killing monsters, but you can spend the XP, somehow?

[JackPhoenix]

I'm going to piggyback on Mr. Wilson's point here. There's a lot of stuff in D&D I'm comfortable relying on improv for, including whole adventures. That's all fine, in my opinion, because the players never see the other side of the screen. But XP is explicitly player-facing and ties into advancement. If you (as a player) know how to advance your character's ability, that frees you up because now you can care about other things than reading the DM's mind. This is why I dislike milestone XP - it basically forces me as a player to guess what hoops you want me to jump through before you feel I've "earned" a level. I'm probably not going to invest in property, nor do spell research, nor start my poetry society, because I don't know if the DM is going to give me XP for any of that. But if you know for a certainty that $X will equate to Y XP, you suddenly have a lot more freedom to interact with the setting, and an objective metric for tracking your character's progress toward their next level.

Now, to your point, I rely on improv heavily because this campaign runs nightly. I have basically no prep time, so I rely on procedural generation tools and improv the results. But that's also why having an agreed-upon metric for how to advance characters is so useful - it gives both me and the player one less thing to worry about. The default action for the game becomes "Is there treasure and where can I get some?"

Of course, that also limits possible motivations for the player character somewhat. No matter what, earning money is a goal in itself. But yes, milestone levelling works better if there's a road with a set goal you work towards, and clear stops along the way, like in published campaigns. If the campaign is more sandbox, it's harder to see what will get you the desired level up... though I also think in solo game, you as the GM have more space to engage more with the player and work with their expectations and the character's motivation than in a game when you need to compromise between the goals and desires of 4 or more players.

[DwarfFighter]

So...is this just XP for killing monsters, but you can spend the XP, somehow?

If you're not familiar with the Dark Souls video games: When you frag a mob you earn a measure of Souls. It's essentially tracked the same way gold is tracked in most other video games, not even as individual gold piece items but rather just an account with a balance that increases as you earn more wealth and decreases as you spend them.

In Dark Souls you spend your earned Souls to level up your abilities, or you spend them to buy items or upgrades off vendors. It's basically gold and xp combined into the same mono-currency. and the in-game merchants are happy to accept that as legal tender for some reason. It's pretty bonkers but it works in terms of video game logic.

-DF

[PhantomSoul]

If you're not familiar with the Dark Souls video games: When you frag a mob you earn a measure of Souls. It's essentially tracked the same way gold is tracked in most other video games, not even as individual gold piece items but rather just an account with a balance that increases as you earn more wealth and decreases as you spend them.

In Dark Souls you spend your earned Souls to level up your abilities, or you spend them to buy items or upgrades off vendors. It's basically gold and xp combined into the same mono-currency. and the in-game merchants are happy to accept that as legal tender for some reason. It's pretty bonkers but it works in terms of video game logic.

-DF

And actually, would be tons of fun for some campaigns explicitly if you have fun with the soul trade aspect of the lore -- maybe you're fiends trying to gain ranks, maybe you're working for night hags... or maybe you're just warlocks or sorcerers or phantom rogues with the right fluff!

[Randel]

And actually, would be tons of fun for some campaigns explicitly if you have fun with the soul trade aspect of the lore -- maybe you're fiends trying to gain ranks, maybe you're working for night hags... or maybe you're just warlocks or sorcerers or phantom rogues with the right fluff!

I actually had a bizarre idea for a sort of reverse evil campaign where the players play as clerics, paladins, or other good-aligned characters who travel to one of the cities of Hell and act like mobsters. Selling contraband holy water, assassinating demons, robbing banks, running protection rackets, etc. The twist is that the demons use souls as money and since all the demons are universally evil (or otherwise dammed by the good-aligned gods) then the lawful good protags have divine authority to basically act like mobsters and get as much soul money as they can.

Then, they can plane shift back to one of the good-aligned planes where their archon patron will exchange all the hell-forged soul coins for gold, magic items, or I guess experience points. He then purifies the souls inside to use them in good-aligned rituals (like empowering the celestial planes or bring life to desolate places by jump-starting the reincarnation cycle or something like that).

I may have gotten the idea after watching the Hazbin Hotel pilot.

[Vogie]

How about doing away with money and experience as two separate metrics and just using "souls" as a mono-currency for stuff? Kill a Goblin and earn 50 "soul points" that you can save for later, spending it on a snack or leveling up.

You certainly can. You just can only spend the souls by visiting a fiendish vendor.