Bladesinger wizard multiclass

[adb82]

Hi everyone,
I was thinking to add a first and single LV of fighter to a bladesinger half elf (or elf). Getting cos saving throw, TWF style, armors and so bigger AC ( that can still grow up with some concentration spell), and using elven Accuracy with shadow blade (plus rapier) beside be a full wizard caster that use his booming blade only on opportunity attacks. It seem to be worth the dip, but would be worth even with 3 LV fighter dip for get 19/20 crit? Or it probably delay too much extra attack and wizard spells? Assuming I don't have access to butcher's bib of course, having that it's totally useless to go 3 LV Champion.

[shipiaozi]

Multiclass warrior is a horrible choice for wizard, especially for blade singer since the subclass already have a weaker version of armor.

If you want to play a wizard with better cantrip, cleric 1 is the best choice. If you want to play a gish, Paladin 2 is the only choice.

[RogueJK]

As stated, Cleric is the usual dip for armor proficiency on a Wizard. Delays spells known by 1 level, but not spell slots. But that's of no use on a Bladesinger since they can't use Medium/Heavy Armor or Shields when Bladesinging anyway.

However, I could see the benefit of a 1 level Fighter dip on a TWF Bladesinger or Hand Crossbow/XBE/SS Bladesinger specifically. As noted, the armor proficiency doesn't help a Bladesinger (except perhaps being able to wear Light Armor for 1 more level than a single-classed Bladesinger, before you hit Wizard 2). CON proficiency is nice, but not as necessary on a Bladesinger who already gets INT to Concentration saves. So that's half a point there. The big benefit could be the Fighting Style, as without it, a TWF Bladesinger would be missing out on 4-5 damage every round since they couldn't apply their DEX modifier to their offhand damage, and the Hand Crossbow/XBE/SS Bladesinger could use it for Archery fighting style to help offset the Sharpshooter attack penalty. So one and a half total benefits, in exchange for delaying your spellcasting and Wizard/Bladesinger abilities by a level.

So on a TWF or XBE/SS Bladesinger, a 1 level Fighter dip could be worth considering. But on a Rapier-wielding Bladesinger, a multiclass dip isn't useful, and you'd be best served to stay single-classed Wizard.

And in none of those cases would 3 levels of Fighter for Champion be worth it. It's way too much of a delay to your primary Wizard spellcasting and abilities. And doubling your crit range is only useful on certain characters that have a significant amount of additional damage dice to double, like Rogues with higher level Sneak Attack, Paladins with high level Smite, or other similar purpose-built crit-fishing builds that stack on numerous sources of additional damage dice to double on a crit. If all you have to double is the d6 or d8 from your weapon, and maybe another d8 or so from something like Booming Blade or Spirit Shroud, it's not worth the significant delay to your spellcasting just to chase twice as many crits, since your crits will only be adding a very small amount of extra damage.

[Iku Rex]

One level of artificer wouldn't be terrible. You get the Con save proficiency, +1 caster level, a couple of cantrips and you can prepare 1st level (Int-based) artificer spells.

[adb82]

Yep you are right, I was actually thinking in a TWF build but maybe it's anyway not worth the dip of fighter, well not that much as I though, I had miss a part of the bladesinger on the book lol...I suppose 10 lv of bladesinger with 10 lv arcane trickster for a more malee focused character with elven accuracy still don't work as well as pure bladesinger as it anyway lost the +5 to damage from int...and the benefits to be a full wizard caster losing spells of LV 6,7,8 and if get hight LV Also 9 of course.

[Mitchellnotes]

Part of this may depend on what your overall plan is with your bladesinger. If you plan on using spiritshroud, the lack of +damage on your offhand may not be that significant of a loss. Bladesinger has a number of paths (maxing int, doing normal wizard stuff with more defense), taking advantage of shadowblade (could depend on views on changes to the melee cantrips), or even keeping a more moderate int, dual wielding and taking advantage of spirit shroud. Some paths may benefit more from dips than others.

[mistajames]

Contrary to what people are saying, IMO dipping 1 level of fighter early as a Bladesinger isn't terrible, as it nets you:


TWF Style
Con proficiency
Martial weapon proficiency
Second Wind
+4 HP
Constitution saves proficiency (for concentration checks)
Armor and Shield proficiency (for when you aren't using Bladesong.

Since Bladesong went from 2x/Short Rest to ProfMod/Long Rest, people often forget that you won't always have Bladesong up in T1-T2 play. Swapping to sword-and-board keeps your AC up while you don't have Bladesong uses available. Just prioritize Dex before Int, use spells which don't require Int (Shadow Blade/Spirit Shroud plus Booming Blade) and mix it up in melee. You can even use Hand xBow with CBE/SS if you want to do reliable ranged damage instead.

Second Wind often represents more eHP cushion. TWF style is also a fairly reliable +3-+5 DPR, or Defensive Style's +1 AC stacks with everything.

It's not optimal, sure, but not every build needs to be. It is very fun, however.

[Gignere]

Yep you are right, I was actually thinking in a TWF build but maybe it's anyway not worth the dip of fighter, well not that much as I though, I had miss a part of the bladesinger on the book lol...I suppose 10 lv of bladesinger with 10 lv arcane trickster for a more malee focused character with elven accuracy still don't work as well as pure bladesinger as it anyway lost the +5 to damage from int...and the benefits to be a full wizard caster losing spells of LV 6,7,8 and if get hight LV Also 9 of course.

I don’t think you should plan out a full level 20 build because a lot of campaigns end at around 12 - 15. Whether to multiclass or not depends on what you want your character to achieve given those level constraints.

I am currently playing an AT / BS build in the works and at tier 3 levels 11 - 15 it should do more DPR than a straight AT with more spell options and better defenses too. The split is going to be eventually AT 9 / BS 6. I wanted to play a striker that can hit really hard, but can cast on the side. Not a spell caster that hits occasionally.

[Willywilliamrtx]

Bladesinger benefits most from a single 2 level dip - in either Fighter or Artificer.

Fighter - d10 hit die, Second Wind, Fighting Style and ACTION SURGE

Artificer - CON saves, keep some caster progression, extra cantrips and item infusions that 1(raise your AC by 1), 2(Gives you 1d4 charges every dawn to auto succeed concentration checks) and 3(let you treat one of your weapons as a +1

[adb82]

I don’t think you should plan out a full level 20 build because a lot of campaigns end at around 12 - 15. Whether to multiclass or not depends on what you want your character to achieve given those level constraints.

I am currently playing an AT / BS build in the works and at tier 3 levels 11 - 15 it should do more DPR than a straight AT with more spell options and better defenses too. The split is going to be eventually AT 9 / BS 6. I wanted to play a striker that can hit really hard, but can cast on the side. Not a spell caster that hits occasionally.

Well here shadow blade and extra attack it's what archive fast i suppose. So at this point isn't better go first 6 lv bladesinger (Also for better saving throw, wis is better than dex at the cost of 2hp) and for archive faster the 3d8 (and 4d8) shadow blade that starting AC you gonna get at LV 7?

[mistajames]

Well here shadow blade and extra attack it's what archive fast i suppose. So at this point isn't better go first 6 lv bladesinger (Also for better saving throw, wis is better than dex at the cost of 2hp) and for archive faster the 3d8 (and 4d8) shadow blade that starting AC you gonna get at LV 7?

Well for one, IMO Wis isn't better than Dex saving throws when you are playing a low HP class and you have access to Counterspell.

If the issue is damage output, I wouldn't bother with AT at all. Faster spell growth will make up for the difference in damage. Spirit Shroud adds 1d8/2d8/3d8 damage per attack at levels 3/5/7, on top of your normal weapon damage. Tenser's Transformation adds 2d12 (about the same as a L7 Spirit Shroud) and gives you advantage on each attack with a bunch of other riders.

At level 14, you can throw out 2*(1d6+2d12+5+5)+(1d6+2d8+2d12+5+5) [avg 88.5] x2 (Simulacrum), which is far better than any sort of Rogue will ever do.

Animate Objects is better still, but then we're off the "melee gish" theme. My point is, if you want to mix it up in melee at L13, you're probably better off with more BS levels.

[Gignere]

Well for one, IMO Wis isn't better than Dex saving throws when you are playing a low HP class and you have access to Counterspell.

If the issue is damage output, I wouldn't bother with AT at all. Faster spell growth will make up for the difference in damage. Spirit Shroud adds 1d8/2d8/3d8 damage per attack at levels 3/5/7, on top of your normal weapon damage. Tenser's Transformation adds 2d12 (about the same as a L7 Spirit Shroud) and gives you advantage on each attack with a bunch of other riders.

At level 14, you can throw out 2*(1d6+2d12+5+5)+(1d6+2d8+2d12+5+5) [avg 88.5] x2 (Simulacrum), which is far better than any sort of Rogue will ever do.

Animate Objects is better still, but then we're off the "melee gish" theme. My point is, if you want to mix it up in melee at L13, you're probably better off with more BS levels.

At level 11 AT / BS would be dishing out 8d8 + 4d6 + 8 along with sentinel it would dish out another 3d8 + 3d6 + 4 this is an average of 83 not counting the crit damage so it ain’t too shabby. I can also stack uncanny dodge and blade ward and take 1/4 damage. Offense isn’t everything.

Not sure how you got 88.5 average damage because you’re not getting another 2d8 (assuming it’s bladetrip) into the equation because you can’t cast with Tenser’s up. You are also assuming TWF style, which a pure BS can only get as a feat. However you’re assuming a max int and dex so not sure how are you squeezing in another feat. So I think it’s actually 74.5 DPR maybe even a little less because I don’t think you can max both int and dex by 15.

Not going to compare with simulacrum because that spell is broken AF and there is just no comparison with any class.

[Willywilliamrtx]

I'd also "ignore" Shadowblade - you get Spirit Shroud with your 3rd level slot and just hit as much as possible - outperforms Shadowblade super quickly the more you swing your weapon/cast spells.

Weapon Attack + GFB + TWF Attack, i.e, already triggers Spirit Shroud FOUR times.

[Gignere]

I'd also "ignore" Shadowblade - you get Spirit Shroud with your 3rd level slot and just hit as much as possible - outperforms Shadowblade super quickly the more you swing your weapon/cast spells.

Weapon Attack + GFB + TWF Attack, i.e, already triggers Spirit Shroud FOUR times.

That’s 3x, also if you don’t have an easy source of advantage I believe Shadowblade will outperform in DPR in dim light.

[Willywilliamrtx]

That’s 3x, also if you don’t have an easy source of advantage I believe Shadowblade will outperform in DPR in dim light.

Wouldn't Spirit Shroud trigger "Twice" on GFB, as you're hitting two targets? (Only triggers once but both targets take the damage rider)

[Gignere]

Wouldn't Spirit Shroud trigger "Twice" on GFB, as you're hitting two targets? (Only triggers once but both targets take the damage rider)

Rider damage is not an attack so wouldn’t proc shroud damage.

[Willywilliamrtx]

Rider damage is not an attack so wouldn’t proc shroud damage.

Yeah okay, black to Shadow Blade it is lol.

[Necromas]

Bladesinger benefits most from a single 2 level dip - in either Fighter or Artificer.

Fighter - d10 hit die, Second Wind, Fighting Style and ACTION SURGE

Artificer - CON saves, keep some caster progression, extra cantrips and item infusions that 1(raise your AC by 1), 2(Gives you 1d4 charges every dawn to auto succeed concentration checks) and 3(let you treat one of your weapons as a +1

I definitely like taking fighter to 2 for action surge if you're already taking one level of it. It's such a universally awesome ability that you can use not only to do nova damage but also just all kinds of tactical combinations of movement and actions that you couldn't normally pull off before your opponent can react.

For Artificer I think you can make an argument for 1, 2, or 3 level dips. Just one is good enough on it's own for the extra spells known while still having full spell slot progression, con saves, and the option to use a shield when not singing. Two I don't think I like as much just because in the games I usually play the low level infusions get overshadowed by magic items from loot/shops/crafting and you probably won't want to take the second level until after wizard 6, but the helm from Tashas in particular is pretty appealing. Three on the other hand I like for getting artillerist and a cool option for your bonus action, although a truly optimized build would probably still be better off two weapon fighting instead of using the turret.

[Willywilliamrtx]

I definitely like taking fighter to 2 for action surge if you're already taking one level of it. It's such a universally awesome ability that you can use not only to do nova damage but also just all kinds of tactical combinations of movement and actions that you couldn't normally pull off before your opponent can react.

For Artificer I think you can make an argument for 1, 2, or 3 level dips. Just one is good enough on it's own for the extra spells known while still having full spell slot progression, con saves, and the option to use a shield when not singing. Two I don't think I like as much just because in the games I usually play the low level infusions get overshadowed by magic items from loot/shops/crafting and you probably won't want to take the second level until after wizard 6, but the helm from Tashas in particular is pretty appealing. Three on the other hand I like for getting artillerist and a cool option for your bonus action, although a truly optimized build would probably still be better off two weapon fighting instead of using the turret.

I'd probably keep Artificer at 2. If we're doing Shadowblade stuff you're likely already doing TWF, having your Bonus Action taken by that. You get 4 infusions (but can only have 2 active), so you can lean into i.e Mind Sharpener (this one is SUPER important until you have a very beefy CON save bonus) and Ruby of the War Mage/Magic Weapon +1 (for the early levels, don't need to infuse the Ruby anymore once you actually find one) and then add fluff or increased effectiveness with something like Goggles of Night. There's also the Chaotic Neutral option of infusing bags as Bags of Holding, selling them at a random store and then making new ones to sell them again at the next town.

The most interesting subclass for Artificer (assuming a 3 dip) is definitely the Armorer - but the extra options don't outweigh missing Spell Mastery at Wizard level 18 (unlimited casts of your Shield spell). Really up to the campaign (and who realistically assumes they'll reach 20th level).

[Kylar0990]

Contrary to what people are saying, IMO dipping 1 level of fighter early as a Bladesinger isn't terrible, as it nets you:


TWF Style
Con proficiency
Martial weapon proficiency
Second Wind
+4 HP
Constitution saves proficiency (for concentration checks)
Armor and Shield proficiency (for when you aren't using Bladesong.

Since Bladesong went from 2x/Short Rest to ProfMod/Long Rest, people often forget that you won't always have Bladesong up in T1-T2 play. Swapping to sword-and-board keeps your AC up while you don't have Bladesong uses available. Just prioritize Dex before Int, use spells which don't require Int (Shadow Blade/Spirit Shroud plus Booming Blade) and mix it up in melee. You can even use Hand xBow with CBE/SS if you want to do reliable ranged damage instead.

Second Wind often represents more eHP cushion. TWF style is also a fairly reliable +3-+5 DPR, or Defensive Style's +1 AC stacks with everything.

It's not optimal, sure, but not every build needs to be. It is very fun, however.

You would only get the Con proficiency form fighter if it is your first class. Multiclassing doesn't add to you stat proficiencies.

[Willywilliamrtx]

Disclaimer: This is all assuming Shadowblade is in play with TWF (Attack Action: Swing Shadowblade, Cast GFB/BB with your Martial Weapon > Bonus Action; Either weapon qualifies to be your off-hand. Swing with Shadowblade).

But yeah, long story short you've got 2 REALLY GOOD class options for a multiclass, with different amounts of dip. You START as these classes, for various reasons.

Fighter 1: CON saves, weapon proficiencies, Fighting Style
Artificer 1: CON saves, possible early item infusions

Fighter 2: Action Surge (+Second Wind)
Artificer 2: Item Infusions (4 known, 2 used at a time). One of these options should be Replicate Magic Item: Ruby of the War Mage

Fighter 3-4: Single archetype feature, ASI cut-off point at 4th level.
Artificer 3-4: Archetype feature (either Armorer or Alchemist), ASI cut-off point at 4th level.

Why Fighter > Artificer: Immediately gain proficiency in all weapons, get to pick the TWF fighting style(Artificer has to spend an ASI grabbing Fighting Initiate to grab this), larger hit die.
Why Artificer > Fighter: You don't lose caster progression, Ruby of the War Mage will have TWF up asap and there's a slew of other very useful infusions.

It should be noted that only Artificer is GUARANTEED to be able to fully TWF once you get your Bladesinger Extra Attack, while still having the option of blasting big spells from range. Ruby of the War Mage lets you turn your martial weapon into a spellcasting focus - which you're going to need if you want to cast material spells while TWF'ing. Both options will take Warcaster ASAP.

How big to dip
Now, realistically, you're only really taking the dip for the CON save proficiency - everything else is gaining small boons, but you're delaying your extra attack in return. The most sensible option would be to take a 2 level dip cause both Fighter and Artificer have their most useful boons for you (as a Bladesinger) at 2nd level; Action Surge and Infusions. A single level dip for CON saves can also be achieved with Resilient CON instead, so you want a little more than that. A 3 dip gives some small extras but they're not worth delaying Extra Attack over. A 4 dip has a more value than 3 dip because it's an ASI cut-off point.