What to build with these stats, for this group?

[jaappleton]

We’re playing in a mega dungeon. It’s not the Tomb of Horrors or anything, but death is a very real possibility at all times, for sure.

As such, I am making my backup character. I learned a long time ago it’s better to have one ready for the party to meet than it is to sit around thumb twiddling.

Party consists of the following 5th level characters:

Wildfire Druid (me) 5
Vengeance Paladin 3 / Shadow Sorc 2
Alchemist Artificer 5
Drakewarden (UA) Ranger 5 (melee)
Scout Rogue 5 (ranged)
Swords Bard 5

Fairly well rounded. Even taking my Druid out of the mix, between the Paladin, Bard, Artificer and Ranger, nearly everyone is capable of some sort of healing. The Bard also made it a point to take Tiny Hut to give everyone a place to rest without too many worries.

Here is what I rolled. I know everyone will say these rolls aren’t real, I couldn’t believe it myself, but DracoKnight can testify to it as I sent him a screenshot of what I rolled in D&D Beyond (they finally support rolling 4d6 drop lowest now in their character creator)

18, 13, 17, 17, 17, 11

I don’t see any glaring holes in the party. If I had to nitpick something I’d say we could maybe use some AoE, but again, that’s me really trying to find a hole in the group.

Any suggestions for what to make? All of Tasha’s, all books, and all UA (must be most recent version) are available.

[J-H]

The only melee/front liners I see are the Sorcadin and the Ranger, unless the Bard is melee. You also only have one heavy-armor wearer, the Sorcadin. I don't know if heavy armor is easily available in the dungeon, but this suggests you have a party with a low average AC.

For this reason, I would strongly consider a high-AC character such as another paladin, a fighter, or a heavy-armor cleric (I think that's forge, life, and war?).
A mid-AC melee character such as a barbarian or a monk could also be a good supporter. A Shadow monk could be good in a dungeon, but Open Hand + Crusher also gives you a lot of battlefield manipulation tools.

On the other hand, if you go down, the Bard is the only full caster in the party, leaving you light on AOE blasting and crowd control... so an argument could then be made to go ahead and go warlock or wizard. With good Dex and Con, an abjurer wizard is a nice off-tank. Once you even off the 17s in Dex & Con to 18s, he should be walking around with (at 5th level) about 17 AC, spiking to 22 with Shield, and 40hp + 14 temporary HP in the arcane ward for a total of 54 at the start of the day.

You have a lot of options.

[Bloodcloud]

I'll agree the party is rather well rounded. Palasorc will get a bit glass canon-y probably, but he got nova damage covered.

Ranger + pet makes for decent melee, supplemented by sword bard. Scout is rather self sufficient, alchemist isn't too squishy.

If anything, ranged damage seems a bit low. AoE a bit lacking too, without your druid. I don't see any STR main (in fact I suspect strenght is dumped across the board). Ranger got some WIS I presume, but no WIS Main either.

You have FANTASTIC stats rolled. Monk would work wonder with those, and cover the WIS deficiency. You could even put one of those 17 in strenght and be a supplex monk. Maybe an elf Monk that mixes Crusher and Elven accuracy? That would get you at level 8: 17 STR, 20 Dex, 18 CON, 11 INT, 19 WIS, 13 CHA. Triple advantage, crit to gain further advantage, bully enemies around. Then use Skill expert to gain 18 STR and Expertise on Athletic. Or some Wis half feat. Basically only ever get half feat and max your ability scores.

[Keravath]

There are lots of options. The stats let you play anything including unusual multiclasses with no stat issues.

The biggest lack with this party seems to be AoE though there are several different characters that would all be fun to play.

1) Warlock 2/shadow sorcerer X - darkness+devil's sight + another invocation - start variant human, take mobile, have 18 dex wis and charisma to start if you want making agonizing blast a viable ranged attack option. Great mobility, great skirmishing and decent ranged attacks. Bump dex to 20 at level 6 with monk ASI.

for AoE

2) 1 knowledge cleric/ X evoker wizard - level 6+ this will be amazing with 3rd level spells and will fill any holes in the party. Wide range of spells and you can drop fireball on top of the party avoiding friendly fire issues. If you play this you can pick up Tiny hut and the bard can swap out for something else like counterspell if they don't have it since they get to add 1/2 proficiency to it. Depending on race you can start with 20 int and can bump two other stats to 18 with a +1/+1 ASI at 4 wizard (character level 5). You also don't lose any spell slot progression with this approach and have a high AC.

Note: Heavy armor is a bit over rated since the difference between medium and heavy is only +1 AC.

Though you could also go with fighter 1 for heavy armor and defensive fighting style which will ultimately increase your AC by +2. Adding a second level of fighter gives you action surge which will allow for 2 fireballs or other spells 1/sr but it does affect spell slot progression.

3) Straight cleric - Arcana cleric from SCAG is good, possibly some of the others from other sources. High AC + booming blade cantrip + spirit guardians can make for a very effective melee cleric (be sure to pick up resilient con and ideally warcaster since you will get hit and you do NOT want spirit guardians to go down. However, with all those 17's - starting with con 17 and taking resilient con at some point fits perfectly. Clerics in 5e are not heal bots .. they are actually much more effective at a lot of other things besides healing.


Finally, you have a well balanced party that is already level 5. You may not need your backup character until level 6 or 7 which puts you past the most painful levels for a 1 or 2 level multiclass dip since level 5 in the primary class is usually a significant boost. All of these suggestions will have a high AC (even the monk with 18 to 19).

The cleric/wizard will have the best AC especially factoring in the shield spell - it also gets to prepare 5+2 domain first level cleric spells with an 18 wis which are in addition to all of the wizard prepared spells. (Healing Word/Cure Wounds/Guiding Bolt/Protection from Good and Evil .. lots of good choices plus the cleric cantrips like Guidance and Resistance). AC with half plate, a shield and at least 14 dex is 19 + shield spell ... higher with magic items.

However, I am not sure how the bard is able to take Leomund's Tiny Hut - it isn't on the bard spell list and a Swords bard doesn't get magical secrets until level 10. If your DM allowed it for fun then that's fine but normally the only options for Tiny Hut are a wizard or a bard using magical secrets (lore at level 6 and others at level 10). (It also isn't included in the list of additional bard spells in Tasha's).

Edit: Wow. Sorry. I have no idea how I missed that. Thank you for the many corrections :)

[opaopajr]

Five Odd numbers, with three potential 18s, screams Basic Human to me. That'd be hard to argue me away from:
19, 14, 18, 18, 18, 12 :smallcool:

After that I think a Fighter Eldritch Knight. You get Second Wind to tax party heals less, and martial combat throughput. Also with Action Surge you can 'double tap' AoE spells to thin out worrisome mook hordes. I'd pick up support spells like Longstrider (no conc, lasts 1 hr, can upcast +targets iirc) and snag Light and another utility cantrip. edit: I am thinking Minor Illusion, so much tactical utility with Ranger & Rogue stealth ops.

Then I'd look into Feats to add fun -- probably Healer so you can double Pally's Lay on Hands through money via Healing Kits ("Lay on Hands for 50cp"). With such high stats the rest of ASIs are gravy fun time. Go wild!

[da newt]

Are you limited to those (awesome) roles in order?

[jaappleton]

Are you limited to those (awesome) roles in order?

No, I am not limited.

Additionally, the Scout Rogue does have 18 Wisdom.

The PalaSorc and Ranger are both Strength based as well, but the Ranger's Wisdom is at a 14.

Artificer is pure Intelligence.

Swords Bard is Charisma & Dexterity.

[Bloodcloud]

No, I am not limited.

Additionally, the Scout Rogue does have 18 Wisdom.

The PalaSorc and Ranger are both Strength based as well, but the Ranger's Wisdom is at a 14.

Artificer is pure Intelligence.

Swords Bard is Charisma & Dexterity.

Right, not sure why I assumed the paladin wasn't STR main... Ranger it's admittedly usually dex-based.

So stats are already well covered all around.

Pure AOE might be the way, and I guess evocation wizard is hard to beat there. Monk could be a great multiplier for paladin smite, and it's not every day you can play a monk and go all in on feats.

EDIT: Or you could go single class Blade lock, but not Hexblade. You actually have the stats to pull THAT off, and it could be real cool. Infernal Hexblade for the big AOE would work great.

Half elf Storm sorc/thunder cleric would be pretty good AOE too, and you have the stats to pull it off big time. Start with 20 CHA, 18 CON, 18 WIS and 17 STR or DEX, wade in melee, maximize your big spells. Again, full on feats because why not.

Maybe go DEX + Alert for sky high initiative to get those huge blasts off early. Elemental adept to ignore resistance and for when your CD is expended.

[Ir0ns0ul]

However, I am not sure how the bard is able to take Leomund's Tiny Hut - it isn't on the bard spell list and a Swords bard doesn't get magical secrets until level 10. If your DM allowed it for fun then that's fine but normally the only options for Tiny Hut are a wizard or a bard using magical secrets (lore at level 6 and others at level 10). (It also isn't included in the list of additional bard spells in Tasha's).

It is actually. Tasha’s included in the Bard list (which is now super good!) and for Twilight Clerics.

EDIT: My bad, it was always available for Bards since PHB as pointed out.

[Bloodcloud]

It is actually. Tasha’s included in the Bard list (which is now super good!) and for Twilight Clerics.

Leomund is absolutely in the bard list in the PHB? Tasha has nothing to do with it?

[jaappleton]

Leomund is absolutely in the bard list in the PHB? Tasha has nothing to do with it?

Yeah, Bard's always had Leomund's Tiny Hut.

[da newt]

I'd pick the role that you want to fill in the party, and build to that. Your stats will allow you to do anything better than almost every other PC ever.

[CTurbo]

Those stats scream Monk, Barbarian, or Paladin to me.

Stats like that make for best opportunity for unarmed defense which I've always loved.

Shadow Monk could be great in a mega dungeon.

The new Beast Barbarian sounds like fun. No armor or weapons necessary.

I had the opportunity to play a Paladin with 18 Str, 18 Con, and 18 Cha to start and of course it was an extremely effective character.

This would be a good opportunity to play a Bladesinger with 18 Dex, Con, and Int

A Cleric would make any party better and any heavy armor Cleric starting with 18 Str, Con, and Wis is going to be a great Cleric. Forge would be great and this would be a good opportunity to play the new popular Twilight Cleric.

[jaappleton]

I'm really leaning Cleric, Warlock, or Wizard. And I'd rather not go Wizard, I'd rather let the Artificer shine on Intelligence.

I'd like to be a full caster because without me being one, there's only the Bard as a full caster.

Warlock, if I went Bladelock, gets me two attacks. Or I could go full Eldritch Blast.

I really enjoy Clerics but... Is it odd if I think that these great stats are kind of wasted on a Cleric?

[Unoriginal]

I'm really leaning Cleric, Warlock, or Wizard. And I'd rather not go Wizard, I'd rather let the Artificer shine on Intelligence.

I'd like to be a full caster because without me being one, there's only the Bard as a full caster.

Warlock, if I went Bladelock, gets me two attacks. Or I could go full Eldritch Blast.

I really enjoy Clerics but... Is it odd if I think that these great stats are kind of wasted on a Cleric?

With those stats, I would go Beast Barbarian and play an over-the-top wrestler and/or someone inspired by Enkidu from the Epic of Gilganesh.

But if you want a caster, my suggestion is: Githyanki Celestial Warlock Pact of the Blade.

You get AOEs, healing, firepower, cool psychic powers and the capacity to whack people with a Greatsword.

[CTurbo]

I'm really leaning Cleric, Warlock, or Wizard. And I'd rather not go Wizard, I'd rather let the Artificer shine on Intelligence.

I'd like to be a full caster because without me being one, there's only the Bard as a full caster.

Warlock, if I went Bladelock, gets me two attacks. Or I could go full Eldritch Blast.

I really enjoy Clerics but... Is it odd if I think that these great stats are kind of wasted on a Cleric?


I don't think the stats are wasted at all on a Cleric. Any of the heavy armor Clerics would love to start with 18 Str, Con, and Wis.

With Hill Dwarf, you could start with 18 Str, 19 Con, 18 Wis and grab Res(Con) to max Con. Slap the extra 17 in Dex just to have a decent Initiative and Dex saves.

Forge Cleric would be fun. Plate + shield would get you a 21-22AC.

or Start Fighter 1 for Con saves and +1 AC and grab Warcaster and you'd be unstoppable.

Forge doesn't get Warhammer proficiency but Dwarf does.

I've always wanted to play a Warforged Forge Cleric. You can get a pretty silly high AC with this combo depending on which Warforged options you have. If you can play an Envoy Warforged, you can even integrate your Smith tools into your body.

[da newt]

Those stats allow all sorts of ridiculous MC options:

Wanna Cleric/Paladin so you can GWM and Smite and Spirit Guardian - go for it.

Those stats also allow you to go anywhere wrt race - what have you always wanted to build but never did be cause there was no synergy? Now's your chance.

Grung, Satyr, Bugbear, Triton, Lizardfolk, regular human ...

Tabaxi grappler Tempest Cleric X/Rogue 2 - sure why not?! Make sure you can Spirit Guardian anyone anywhere ...

[arnin77]

I'm really leaning Cleric, Warlock, or Wizard. And I'd rather not go Wizard, I'd rather let the Artificer shine on Intelligence.

I'd like to be a full caster because without me being one, there's only the Bard as a full caster.

Warlock, if I went Bladelock, gets me two attacks. Or I could go full Eldritch Blast.

I really enjoy Clerics but... Is it odd if I think that these great stats are kind of wasted on a Cleric?

I don’t think so, you could go VHuman with resilient con and have 18str 18dex 18 con and 18 wis to start. I would look at a heavy armor cleric - maybe tempest for some AOE?

[5eNeedsDarksun]

Light Cleric gives you some blasting as well as continuing on some healing and can be pretty tanky.

[Eldariel]

Totally a great statline for a frontline Arcana Cleric. You have the Str so you don't need to waste a feat on Shillelagh, and you have the Dex so medium armor suffices. Hell, you could even Medium Armor Master if you wanted to (though it's still a mediocre feat), but you prolly are of course better served by going Warcaster and then all sorts of cool feats (Res: Con is also good of course; could go 18 Con/19 Wis and then 19/20 and 20/20 with ASI and Res: Con).

Honestly, it's quite the privilege to have open feats pre-12 as an Arcana Cleric, let alone 2. You have your Alert and Lucky and such. 18 Str/17 Dex/17 Con/19 Wis would also open up maxing out your Wis with Observant (a great feat anyways). Could have Res: Con, War Caster and Observant by 8 at 18/17/18/20 in your critical stats. Then just Alert and Lucky and like Tough or Skill Expertise: Perception or whatever over the rest of your career. And Observant could of course be Fey Touched if teleporting and general cool stuff struck your fancy more instead. But in a megadungeon, mega-Perception sounds pretty good (though the need of course depends on Rogue/Bard Expertises and stats).

[Mercurias]

I don’t see any glaring holes in the party. If I had to nitpick something I’d say we could maybe use some AoE, but again, that’s me really trying to find a hole in the group.

Any suggestions for what to make? All of Tasha’s, all books, and all UA (must be most recent version) are available.

With those stats, I would honestly be pretty down for a Firbolg Twilight Cleric. It seems like a strong option for providing party support in most scenarios, and there are a lot worse forms of AoE damage/control than Spirit Guardians.

For stats, you could go in at lv 5 with 18 STR, 17 CON and 20 WIS without even using an ASI, which would free you up to grab Warcaster or Resilient (CON) at lv 4.

[KorvinStarmast]

Wildfire Druid (me) 5
Vengeance Paladin 3 / Shadow Sorc 2
Alchemist Artificer 5
Drakewarden (UA) Ranger 5 (melee)
Scout Rogue 5 (ranged)
Swords Bard 5

18, 13, 17, 17, 17, 11

I don’t see any glaring holes in the party. If I had to nitpick something I’d say we could maybe use some AoE, but again, that’s me really trying to find a hole in the group.

Any suggestions for what to make? All of Tasha’s, all books, and all UA (must be most recent version) are available.
I'd suggest a Warlock, Genie, Pact of the Blade. vHuman

S 18 D 18 C 17 I 11 W 13 Ch 18
Consider Reslilent Con for your feat.
S 18 D 18 C 18 I 11 W 13 Ch 18.

Initial Invocations would be Armor of Shadows and Devil's Sight and then various blade pact enhancers as levels increase.

[jaappleton]

So here’s what I’m down to

Blade Pact Warlock
Let’s me mix it up a bit in melee, grants me spellcasting, very versatile, gets some tricks really body else gets via Invocations. A solid pick, and all-rounder. Something like VHuman with Moderately Armored at creation with PAM could be a solid build.

Dragon or Divine Soul Sorcerer
If I go Dragon, I can pick Mark of Healing Halfling and get access to healing spells AND all the blasty goodness of Dragon. Unfortunately it kind of innately locks me in to a particular damage type, which I’m overall fairly OK with. Pretty good AC for a d6, too. Meanwhile Divine Soul frees up my racial selection to something that actually gets armor, with a big boost to saving throws via Favored of the Gods. Either way, that Metamagic goodness provides a lot of tactical options for me to play with, and I’m sure the Rogue & Paladin (or Bard or Ranger) would love to be targeted with Twinned Haste. (Yes the PalaSorc is part Sorc, of course, but I’d be much more of a full caster, as they’re only Sorc2)

Twilight Cleric
Cleric is Wisdom based, always a good focus to have. Twilight especially has my eye, and while unfortunately not amazingly blasty, it’s channel divinity is incredibly good. Plus it’s got heavy armor, so I can take some solid hits. More of a support build, I think, but very good at what it does. That Darkvision is amazing, and helps so many.

EDIT: Undoubtedly, Twilight is the best support. It does is very well. It’s also a bit set in its play style. Sorc is likely the most tactical, giving me plenty of options every turn. Warlock is the most well versed all-around, basically giving me almost a short rest Paladin if I went Celestial.

[J-H]

Is your DM houseruling in additional spells known for the older Sorc subclasses, post-Tasha?

[jaappleton]

Is your DM houseruling in additional spells known for the older Sorc subclasses, post-Tasha?

No, he is not.

But he is a very open and player-friendly DM. As an example, some Feats can be purchased, like the one that grants proficiency in Medium Armor & Shields if we have enough downtime for my character to pay someone to train them.

So no, no house ruled older spells. But what we did once in a previous campaign was grant the Sorc a bonus number of spells known equal to their Charisma modifier.

[da newt]

Isn't there a new metamagic option to change a spell's damage type? That might be fun to play with for your Sorc (either option).

For your Warlock, hexblade gives you the med armor to start so you don't need the feat, right?