Greywander
2020-12-23, 06:38 PM
For the fuller context, see this thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612077-5-5e-idea-for-stacking-caster-classes-but-how-to-handle-different-types-of-casting). I think I've found a solution to the question posed in that thread, but I've stumbled onto a new issue. I'll try to summarize the most relevant parts so I can get to the issue more quickly.
I have this idea for a big overhaul of 5e that will, among other things, make some changes to the class system. Classes are going to be cut down to just four levels, and you'll chain together several classes as you level up. This allows for a lot more customization, and it also obviates the need for subclasses, most of which will probably be reworked into full classes.
Since each class is just four levels, it's pretty easy to find a model to standardize what type of feature you get at each level. So, every class will always give you a "progressive" feature at 1st level, i.e. a feature that gets stronger (i.e. progresses) as you level up. Or rather, it gets stronger the more times you get that feature. If, for example, you want to be a full caster, you would chain together several spellcasting classes.
Spellcasting, specifically, is causing me some headaches, because there's more than one kind of spellcasting. Let's say we have a necromancer class; it's a more advanced class, so you can't start as a necromancer, you would need to take it as a 2nd class (i.e. 5th level at the earliest). Now, we know the necromancer is a spellcaster, but what kind of spellcasting do they use? It seems like it might depend on what our starter class was. For example, if we go wizard -> necromancer, then necromancer would advance our wizard spellcasting. If we go sorcerer -> necromancer, it would advance our sorcerer spellcasting. Cleric -> necromancer would advance cleric spellcasting, etc. So far, this seems pretty intuitive; the necromancer just advances whatever spellcasting we already have.
However, it's not hard to conceive of less obvious situations. Say we go fighter -> necromancer, what kind of spellcasting do we get? The fighter doesn't have spells, so the necromancer would need to give us some kind of spellcasting in case we didn't already have any. But now things take a turn for the weird. What if we go fighter -> necromancer -> wizard? We should get wizard spellcasting from wizard, but we've already got some other type of spellcasting from necromancer. If we want to get really weird, we could go wizard -> sorcerer -> cleric; do we have three different types of spellcasting, or do sorcerer and cleric simply advance our wizard spellcasting?
I think I've found a solution to this: Whenever you reach 1st level in a class, you have the option of either (a) taking that class's progressive feature, or (b) advancing one progressive feature you already have, from any class. This can lead to some new weirdness; for example, if you go fighter -> wizard, you have the option of advancing your fighter feature instead of getting spellcasting, allowing you to be a "spell-less wizard". You could, however, use a later class to advance your wizard spellcasting, since you technically "have" it, it's just at "0th level", so to speak.
Okay, so this seems like a pretty good solution. Now all I have to do is make sure that there's at least one starter class for each progressive ability. This means that if I have different types of spellcasting, I need to make sure that there's a class of each type available from 1st level. Wizard casting is different from cleric casting, for example, so I need both of those as starter classes.
Now, I have a homebrew wild magic system that I'd like to use in this mod, so it makes sense that I might want to add a wild mage class. Here's the thing, though: the wild magic system is designed so that it can apply to any class. It allows you to cast spells without using spell slots; you roll some dice trying to beat a DC, and if you roll doubles, you trigger a wild magic surge. It only changes how spells are cast, not how you prepare spells. So this wild mage class, how does it prepare spells? What if I want a character who prepares spells like a wizard, but casts them through wild magic? Or a spells-known caster like a sorcerer? And here's my current dilemma: spellcasting has multiple parts, so how do I offer a "complete" set of starter classes that give you full access to every possible combination without just having a huge number of very similar classes?
Here are, as I see it, the three parts to spellcasting:
What's on your spell list.
How you prepare spells.
How you cast spells.
The first is pretty easily dealt with. Every class (possibly including non-caster classes, like fighter), has their own spell list, and your personal spell list is all of your class lists added together. This can create incentive to take a specific class because of the spells it gives you, rather than any of its features. Anyway, this isn't a problem because it's handled separately from the progressive feature. It is intended design for spell lists to add together.
The problem is the second two, because they both seem to be collectively rolled into the spellcasting feature. Either (a) I need to create a starter class for every possible combination, or (b) I need to separate one of these out. In vanilla 5e, every caster except the warlock uses regular spell slots, so the only thing that really makes them different are how they prepare spells. But the warlock prepares spells the same way a sorcerer or bard does, but casts them differently (using pact magic slots). It seems to me that the "how you cast spells" is the more interesting one, and thus should be the focus of the progressive ability. This would mean that all spellcasters would, by default, prepare spells the same way (likely as spells known, like a sorcerer), and one of their class features might allow them to prepare additional spells a different way (e.g. the wizard's spellbook might be a completely separate, non-progressive class feature).
So now our wild mage is a spells known caster, but uses special wild magic to cast spells without ever getting spell slots. If we want to also be a wizard, we just take wizard as our second class, which will give us a spellbook feature that lets us prepare extra spells from our spellbook. Of course, now the problem is that we have a bunch of classes that previously cast spells the same way and were only differentiated by how they prepared them, and now they all prepare them the same way. So now I need to create new ways for each class to cast their spells in order to make them unique.
Alternatively, I suppose I could just have a generic Spellcasting feature that allows you to freely pick one method of preparing spells and one method of casting spells. Or maybe there's another option I'm not seeing.
This is where I'm currently stuck. I'm open to any ideas on how to possibly handle this. Also, I apologize for how lengthy this got.
I have this idea for a big overhaul of 5e that will, among other things, make some changes to the class system. Classes are going to be cut down to just four levels, and you'll chain together several classes as you level up. This allows for a lot more customization, and it also obviates the need for subclasses, most of which will probably be reworked into full classes.
Since each class is just four levels, it's pretty easy to find a model to standardize what type of feature you get at each level. So, every class will always give you a "progressive" feature at 1st level, i.e. a feature that gets stronger (i.e. progresses) as you level up. Or rather, it gets stronger the more times you get that feature. If, for example, you want to be a full caster, you would chain together several spellcasting classes.
Spellcasting, specifically, is causing me some headaches, because there's more than one kind of spellcasting. Let's say we have a necromancer class; it's a more advanced class, so you can't start as a necromancer, you would need to take it as a 2nd class (i.e. 5th level at the earliest). Now, we know the necromancer is a spellcaster, but what kind of spellcasting do they use? It seems like it might depend on what our starter class was. For example, if we go wizard -> necromancer, then necromancer would advance our wizard spellcasting. If we go sorcerer -> necromancer, it would advance our sorcerer spellcasting. Cleric -> necromancer would advance cleric spellcasting, etc. So far, this seems pretty intuitive; the necromancer just advances whatever spellcasting we already have.
However, it's not hard to conceive of less obvious situations. Say we go fighter -> necromancer, what kind of spellcasting do we get? The fighter doesn't have spells, so the necromancer would need to give us some kind of spellcasting in case we didn't already have any. But now things take a turn for the weird. What if we go fighter -> necromancer -> wizard? We should get wizard spellcasting from wizard, but we've already got some other type of spellcasting from necromancer. If we want to get really weird, we could go wizard -> sorcerer -> cleric; do we have three different types of spellcasting, or do sorcerer and cleric simply advance our wizard spellcasting?
I think I've found a solution to this: Whenever you reach 1st level in a class, you have the option of either (a) taking that class's progressive feature, or (b) advancing one progressive feature you already have, from any class. This can lead to some new weirdness; for example, if you go fighter -> wizard, you have the option of advancing your fighter feature instead of getting spellcasting, allowing you to be a "spell-less wizard". You could, however, use a later class to advance your wizard spellcasting, since you technically "have" it, it's just at "0th level", so to speak.
Okay, so this seems like a pretty good solution. Now all I have to do is make sure that there's at least one starter class for each progressive ability. This means that if I have different types of spellcasting, I need to make sure that there's a class of each type available from 1st level. Wizard casting is different from cleric casting, for example, so I need both of those as starter classes.
Now, I have a homebrew wild magic system that I'd like to use in this mod, so it makes sense that I might want to add a wild mage class. Here's the thing, though: the wild magic system is designed so that it can apply to any class. It allows you to cast spells without using spell slots; you roll some dice trying to beat a DC, and if you roll doubles, you trigger a wild magic surge. It only changes how spells are cast, not how you prepare spells. So this wild mage class, how does it prepare spells? What if I want a character who prepares spells like a wizard, but casts them through wild magic? Or a spells-known caster like a sorcerer? And here's my current dilemma: spellcasting has multiple parts, so how do I offer a "complete" set of starter classes that give you full access to every possible combination without just having a huge number of very similar classes?
Here are, as I see it, the three parts to spellcasting:
What's on your spell list.
How you prepare spells.
How you cast spells.
The first is pretty easily dealt with. Every class (possibly including non-caster classes, like fighter), has their own spell list, and your personal spell list is all of your class lists added together. This can create incentive to take a specific class because of the spells it gives you, rather than any of its features. Anyway, this isn't a problem because it's handled separately from the progressive feature. It is intended design for spell lists to add together.
The problem is the second two, because they both seem to be collectively rolled into the spellcasting feature. Either (a) I need to create a starter class for every possible combination, or (b) I need to separate one of these out. In vanilla 5e, every caster except the warlock uses regular spell slots, so the only thing that really makes them different are how they prepare spells. But the warlock prepares spells the same way a sorcerer or bard does, but casts them differently (using pact magic slots). It seems to me that the "how you cast spells" is the more interesting one, and thus should be the focus of the progressive ability. This would mean that all spellcasters would, by default, prepare spells the same way (likely as spells known, like a sorcerer), and one of their class features might allow them to prepare additional spells a different way (e.g. the wizard's spellbook might be a completely separate, non-progressive class feature).
So now our wild mage is a spells known caster, but uses special wild magic to cast spells without ever getting spell slots. If we want to also be a wizard, we just take wizard as our second class, which will give us a spellbook feature that lets us prepare extra spells from our spellbook. Of course, now the problem is that we have a bunch of classes that previously cast spells the same way and were only differentiated by how they prepared them, and now they all prepare them the same way. So now I need to create new ways for each class to cast their spells in order to make them unique.
Alternatively, I suppose I could just have a generic Spellcasting feature that allows you to freely pick one method of preparing spells and one method of casting spells. Or maybe there's another option I'm not seeing.
This is where I'm currently stuck. I'm open to any ideas on how to possibly handle this. Also, I apologize for how lengthy this got.