Prismatic Wall

[J-H]

Thinking ahead... how does a party without a wizard get past a Prismatic Wall? Especially if it's wrapped around as an outward-facing protective barrier?

[JackPhoenix]

Dig through the ground?

[SteadyAim]

Based on the spell description, all it takes is involuntary movement to get through the wall safely. But I can imagine that many DMs will not allow something that simple to work.

[kingcheesepants]

if the wall is already up? You'll have to just zap it with the correct type of damage or spell one by one. You'll need cold damage, strong wind, force damage, passwall or another 5th level or higher spell that opens a portal on a solid surface, fire damage, bright light from the daylight spell or another 3rd level or higher light creating spell, dispel magic or a similar magic effect ending spell. If you have a couple of casters you shouldn't really have any trouble with getting rid of the thing (assuming that you can take the time and spells to do so). If you don't have the time or spells a bear totem barbarian resists all the damage associated with the wall and has a ton of HP so he might be able to just walk through and tank it than kill whatever the problem is on the other side. A teammate (such as a paladin) can assist him in making all his saves to further increase his odds. If the wall isn't up yet than a bard or warlock can counterspell whoever is casting it before it's up. A physical barrier is really only a slight additional problem to overcome and if you can break apart the prismatic wall you can almost certainly break apart a stone (or whatever) wall.

[MaxWilson]

Thinking ahead... how does a party without a wizard get past a Prismatic Wall? Especially if it's wrapped around as an outward-facing protective barrier?

Wait ten minutes for the spell to expire.

[Unoriginal]

Wait ten minutes for the spell to expire.

Came here to say that.

An high-level Rogue or Monk would also be able to succeed the DEX save needed to cross a layer pretty consistently, too (+10-11 vs DC around 19), and with Evasion don't have to worry about the half damage if they succeed.

[Lunali]

Came here to say that.

An high-level Rogue or Monk would also be able to succeed the DEX save needed to cross a layer pretty consistently, too (+10-11 vs DC around 19), and with Evasion don't have to worry about the half damage if they succeed.

That'll get you through, but there's a good chance you'll be blinded from the effect of getting close to the wall as that one's a con save.

[Unoriginal]

That'll get you through, but there's a good chance you'll be blinded from the effect of getting close to the wall as that one's a con save.

Well the high-level Monk at least can do this as easily as the rest.

[Asisreo1]

Came here to say that.

An high-level Rogue or Monk would also be able to succeed the DEX save needed to cross a layer pretty consistently, too (+10-11 vs DC around 19), and with Evasion don't have to worry about the half damage if they succeed.
That's a bit too risky. Reason being that there's no guarantee the DC is actually around 19 since some creatures may have DC's into the mid-twenties (assuming a homebrew monster anyways due to no creature having Prismatic Wall).

That, or the rogue may be significantly lower leveled since archmages are CR 12 and can easily show up against a party of level 9's and still not break the "deadly" threshold. Its a similar percent chance to evade, but the rogue will only have roughly 57-66 HP. Not enough that a rogue may feel confident enough to get through the entire wall without something seriously going wrong.

Plus, the last 2 walls are a big problem for the rogue because those are saves they aren't proficient in. So if there's a 40% chance to fail one, there's a 16% chance you'll fail both and a DC 17 save against effects you're not proficient in can be really hard to shake. Especially the petrification, which will tend to normalize the success rates to be more aligned with chance since its over 5 trials rather than the typical 1 trial.

[Unoriginal]

That's a bit too risky. Reason being that there's no guarantee the DC is actually around 19 since some creatures may have DC's into the mid-twenties (assuming a homebrew monster anyways due to no creature having Prismatic Wall).

That, or the rogue may be significantly lower leveled since archmages are CR 12 and can easily show up against a party of level 9's and still not break the "deadly" threshold. Its a similar percent chance to evade, but the rogue will only have roughly 57-66 HP. Not enough that a rogue may feel confident enough to get through the entire wall without something seriously going wrong.

Plus, the last 2 walls are a big problem for the rogue because those are saves they aren't proficient in. So if there's a 40% chance to fail one, there's a 16% chance you'll fail both and a DC 17 save against effects you're not proficient in can be really hard to shake. Especially the petrification, which will tend to normalize the success rates to be more aligned with chance since its over 5 trials rather than the typical 1 trial.

An Archmage with Prismatic Wall memorized rather than Time Stop would have a CR quite a bit above 12.

The rest is true, though.

So the high level Monk would definitively be the best to try, if the PCs *had* to cross the Wall.

[Asisreo1]

An Archmage with Prismatic Wall memorized rather than Time Stop would have a CR quite a bit above 12.

Actually, I'm not so sure. Prismatic Wall is a control spell rather than a damage spell. It doesn't do damage unless the party is forced to cross the wall through physical means, the only effect the caster can force is the Blinding due to it appearing within 20ft of their enemy.

It is an excellent "stay back" spell since it traps their enemies in something a bit more complex to escape than something a single dispel magic could stop. It could hold anyone without teleportation, including Clerics and Druids, while the rest of the party must fight the archmage.

Its a useful spell but it doesn't force damage and doesn't boost HP so it shouldn't actually effect CR.

[MaxWilson]

That'll get you through, but there's a good chance you'll be blinded from the effect of getting close to the wall as that one's a con save.

Unless you close your eyes.

[SteadyAim]

Just have an ally shove you through the wall.

[Grod_The_Giant]

A running start and the old "cleric's Dispel Magic?"
https://i.redd.it/7f3utanaizo51.png

[kingcheesepants]

Just have an ally shove you through the wall.

The description says "When a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall, it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers. As it passes or reaches through each layer, the creature must make a Dexterity saving throw or be affected by that layer's properties" that can be interpreted as one must be willing to go through the wall to take the effects. As being pushed through might be construed as not attempting to reach or pass through but it's a stretch. I personally couldn't see myself ruling in that manner (and in the past when my players have used this spell they've combined it with various things such as grappling, bigsby's hand and antigravity in order to force enemies through to kill them). If your DM wants to nerf the spell by taking an unusual view of what does and doesn't constitute attempting to pass through than by all means have your allies push you through or what have you but can't imagine myself or any DM I've played with running with such an interpretation.

[Lunali]

Unless you close your eyes.

There's no provision that you have to be able to see the wall to be blinded by it.

[MaxWilson]

There's no provision that you have to be able to see the wall to be blinded by it.

"If another creature that can see the wall moves to within 20 feet of it or starts its turn there, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become Blinded for 1 minute."

[Lunali]

"If another creature that can see the wall moves to within 20 feet of it or starts its turn there, the creature must succeed on a Constitution saving throw or become Blinded for 1 minute."

Ignore me, I'm blinded...

[J-H]

Thanks everyone. For a low-caster party (cleric is only full caster) operating under time limits, it looks like Prismatic Wall is going to be a pretty good/rough challenge.
As it should be.

[Lunali]

It should be noted that a party with access to cold damage can begin attacking through the wall (at disadvantage) once they manage to destroy the first layer.

[Tanarii]

Unless you close your eyes.
There's no general provision that you can "close your eyes" to avoid seeing things in combat.

A DM might rule that it works. Or they might rule it's unreasonable to claim your character can successfully intentionally keep their eyes closed in a life and death combat situation, and your character would have to blindfold themself or something. Or ask for some kind of check to pull it off.

[MaxWilson]

There's no general provision that you can "close your eyes" to avoid seeing things in combat.

A DM might rule that it works. Or they might rule it's unreasonable to claim your character can successfully intentionally keep their eyes closed in a life and death combat situation, and your character would have to blindfold themself or something. Or ask for some kind of check to pull it off.

That's not unreasonable (requiring a blindfold), although I'm not so sure this is a combat situation. Sounds like a puzzle situation from the OP.

[Tanarii]

That's not unreasonable (requiring a blindfold), although I'm not so sure this is a combat situation. Sounds like a puzzle situation from the OP.
oh yeah, good call there.

What's funny is my instinctive reaction was combat situation and "stop trying to game the rules", but as soon as you say puzzle situation it switched to "good use of player skill and out of box thinking". 😂:smallamused:

[Unoriginal]

Thanks everyone. For a low-caster party (cleric is only full caster) operating under time limits, it looks like Prismatic Wall is going to be a pretty good/rough challenge.
As it should be.

Even for a high-caster party it's going to be a rough challenge, unless they're also high level.

[SteadyAim]

A team mate pushes me through the wall.

[MaxWilson]

Even for a high-caster party it's going to be a rough challenge, unless they're also high level.

I dunno, wouldn't a high-caster party have decent odds of having access to Dimension Door or Stone Shape or Passwall or summoning spells that could get them around the wall? And again, it goes away in ten minutes, so it's actually more that it's tough to create non-contrived scenarios where the wall IS an interesting challenge. When can you not afford to wait ten minutes? Is there a Blow Up the Planet bomb going off in nine minutes and you need to defuse it or something? (Contrived.) Did the Designer's Fiat turn this particular Prismatic Wall permanent? (Contrived.)

[SteadyAim]

If involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage, how much damage can a mobile grappler cause by repeatedly moving an opponent through the Prismatic Wall?

If involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage, can the BBEG combo Prismatic Wall with Reverse Gravity and kill the party instantly without any saves?

[LudicSavant]

There's some discussion of this issue here (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/questions/157673/does-forced-movement-trigger-the-effects-of-the-prismatic-wall-spell).

One interpretation I've seen (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/177326) is:


"When a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall (voluntarily), it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers. As it passes or reaches through each layer (voluntarily or not), the creature must make a Dexterity saving throw or be affected by that layer's properties as described below."

And that the reasoning for the first part being voluntary is just to make it clear to DMs that a player just reaching through the wall experimentally shouldn't instantly eat every layer.

Frankly, that sounds more likely to me than the 'you can just shove people through 9th level wall spells' interpretation.

[SteadyAim]

One interpretation I've seen (https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/177326) is:



And that the reasoning for the first part being voluntary is just to make it clear to DMs that a player just reaching through the wall experimentally shouldn't instantly eat every layer.

Frankly, that sounds more likely to me than the 'you can just shove people through 9th level wall spells' interpretation.

Assuming you are correct, how much damage can a BBEG do to a party that doesn't have Counterspell with the Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall combo? Any Wizard BBEG with Intelligence greater than 12 would be aware of this combo.

Also, how many thousands of hit points damage can a mobile grappling wizard do with a Prismatic Wall by involuntarily moving an enemy in and out of the Prismatic Wall?

[MaxWilson]

If involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage, how much damage can a mobile grappler cause by repeatedly moving an opponent through the Prismatic Wall?

If involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage, can the BBEG combo Prismatic Wall with Reverse Gravity and kill the party instantly without any saves?

Grapplers can already inflict insanely high damage with 2nd level Spike Growth. I certainly hope 9th level Prismatic Wall is competitive with a 2nd level spell.

[SteadyAim]

Grapplers can already inflict insanely high damage with 2nd level Spike Growth. I certainly hope 9th level Prismatic Wall is competitive with a 2nd level spell.

Any old grappler can inflict insane damage with Prismatic Wall. Only very specific and gimmicky builds can inflict insane damage with Spike Growth.

Further, any BBEG who doesn't combo Reverse Gravity and wipe the entire party with Prismatic Wall is being intentionally dumb. Metamagic Adept makes the entire combo unstoppable and reduces the game to an initiative roll.

Or am I missing something?

[LudicSavant]

Assuming you are correct, how much damage can a BBEG do to a party that doesn't have Counterspell with the Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall combo? Any Wizard BBEG with Intelligence greater than 12 would be aware of this combo. Niv-Mizzet uses that combo, too :smallsmile:

Anyways, yes, under that interpretation it would be one of the many very powerful combos with multiple high level spell slots that basically just end an encounter if you don't have a counter for them. Reverse Gravity at least offers a save, or (presumably) for you to use any of the means to arrest falls.

Another perspective on that thread is that it's just to ambiguous to call, falls into DM territory, but that 'they're pretty sure you're not supposed to just be able to shove through it.' One interpretation in the comments (by Ton Day) is that you just don't pass through unless you pass through willfully.
https://rpg.stackexchange.com/a/157676

[JackPhoenix]

Any old grappler can inflict insane damage with Prismatic Wall. Only very specific and gimmicky builds can inflict insane damage with Spike Growth.

Further, any BBEG who doesn't combo Reverse Gravity and wipe the entire party with Prismatic Wall is being intentionally dumb. Metamagic Adept makes the entire combo unstoppable and reduces the game to an initiative roll.

Or am I missing something?

Sure. You're missing that the only creature with both Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall in his stat block is Niv-Mizzet from GGtR, and he doesn't have Metamagic Adept, though as he can concentrate on two spells at once, he's got other options.

BBEG isn't dumb for not using an option he doesn't have.

[SteadyAim]

Niv-Mizzet uses that combo, too :smallsmile:

Anyways, yes, under that interpretation it would be one of the many very powerful combos with multiple high level spell slots that basically just end an encounter if you don't have a counter for them. Reverse Gravity at least offers a save, or (presumably) for you to use any of the means to arrest falls.

Feather Fall doesn't help here. Only Flight and Spider Climb help here. And it is easy to make combos uncounterable these days.

Can you list the other combos that end encounters so that we may compare? This combo in my mind stands head and shoulder by orders of magnitude above all the others. Combine with Scrying and Teleportation and you have a Cruise Missile.


Sure. You're missing that the only creature with both Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall in his stat block is Niv-Mizzet from GGtR, and he doesn't have Metamagic Adept, though as he can concentrate on two spells at once, he's got other options.

BBEG isn't dumb for not using an option he doesn't have.

Aren't you instead now proving that the Archmage in the Monster Manual is dumb for picking Time Stop and Mind Blank instead of the obviously better Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity?

I guess monsters really don't know what they are doing. Parties survive encounters with Archmages because they encounter dumb Archmages.

[MaxWilson]

Any old grappler can inflict insane damage with Prismatic Wall. Only very specific and gimmicky builds can inflict insane damage with Spike Growth.

Further, any BBEG who doesn't combo Reverse Gravity and wipe the entire party with Prismatic Wall is being intentionally dumb. Metamagic Adept makes the entire combo unstoppable and reduces the game to an initiative roll.

Or am I missing something?

Feather Fall, for example. Contingency for another. Not being in Fireball formation. Stealth. Clone. Dex saves against Reverse Gravity. Inherent flight for many subclasses, and magical flight for others.

Frankly, if you're going up against a BBEG with 9th level wizard spells and apparently Action Surge as well (to cast Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall on the same round), if you let him get off two spells on you while you're in Fireball Formation and the worst that happens is taking ~200 HP of damage and sent to another plane, I think you're getting exactly what you should get for messing up so thoroughly. Did you even have a PLAN for dealing with this Fighter 2/Wizard 18 bad guy? Couldn't you have sent in illusionary doubles (skeletons under Seeming) instead, or worn an Antimagic Field, or kidnapped the bad guy via Gate and then killed him in an antimagic zone, or attempted something resembling an actual plan? If he'd simply Action Surged a Forcecage + Meteor Swarm instead of Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity you'd still have been in a world of hurt either way. What did you (PCs) think was going to happen when he cast two high level spells on you at once?

[JackPhoenix]

Aren't you instead now proving that the Archmage in the Monster Manual is dumb for picking Time Stop and Mind Blank instead of the obviously better Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity?

I guess monsters really don't know what they are doing. Parties survive encounters with Archmages because they encounter dumb Archmages.

What makes you think the Archmage got to pick anything?

[LudicSavant]

Only Flight and Spider Climb help here. As well as anything else which prevents falling.


And it is easy to make combos uncounterable these days. If you just mean "un-counterspellable" then yes. If you mean actually uncounterable, then I'm genuinely curious what you have in mind to accomplish that.

In order for Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall to actually TPK, you need to get off both spells before the PCs can act, the PCs need to be in formation, they need to all fail saves, they need to take enough damage to actually die, and all of them need to lack ways to prevent their fall or otherwise escape their fate (like Contingency).


Can you list the other combos that end encounters so that we may compare?

Wall of Force + hazard would be an example of something that just plain kills you if you don't specifically have a counter for it.

So would Wish + Mirage Arcana to just morph the environment into lava (https://www.sageadvice.eu/2018/06/03/if-i-used-mirage-arcane-to-transform-a-lake-of-water-into-a-lake-of-lava/).

So are a lot of raw damage combos. For example if you wanted to, you could have both yourself and a Simulacrum cast Meteor Swarm from a mile away. And that's not even close to the amount of action economy you can pour on (you could set up Otiluke's Freezing Spheres *and* a Concentration effect *and* an Action Surge spell *and* a bonus action effect like Crown of Stars *and* minions... all with just one Wizard. In addition to the meteor swarms).

There are various other examples of things that just kind of win if you're willing to dump multiple high level spells and enemies don't have a counter prepared for it. Especially if you're assuming that the entire party fails saves (which is necessary for the "Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall" combo to actually TPK).

[LudicSavant]

Okay, so to put the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall into perspective, I'll consider what it'll do to an actual, real-world party of adventurers. This is from a game that's been running since level 3, and is now level 19.

The party consists of a tiefling Evoker, a Lore Bard, a Monk, a Hexblade archer, and a Dex Sorcadin.

Let's say that the enemy is in their best case scenario. The party is all clustered in Fireball formation for some reason. The BBEGs beats everyone's initiative (despite the fact that this party buffs initiative), and they use Subtle Action Surge Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity. And lets say they have a DC19 saving throw.

The Hexblade archer has at-will flight and doesn't especially care which way gravity goes.

The Monk has a solid chance of just... making all the saves with Evasion. Knowing the Monk player, he seriously might run through a Prismatic Wall on purpose just to make the enemy's face more amusing to punch. He's like that.

The remaining three (Bard, Wizard, Dex Sorcadin) have decent chances of making their saves, since they all have decent Dex, all support each other and (by virtue of being in Fireball formation) are all in the Paladin's aura.

Let's say they fail and fall. I don't have the sheets for anyone but the Wizard here atm so let's look at her. She has 139 hit points counting Inspiring Leader, and a +3 Dex save (including her Cloak of Protection). +8 if she's in the Paladin's aura. +1d12 if she has Bardic Inspiration.

But let's ignore all that and say it's just +3. Since she's a Tiefling, she's Resistant to at least one of the layers. And she'll (on average) make 25% of the saving throws for half damage. That means that falling through the wall, she'll take an average of about 137 damage... meaning there's a fair chance it won't knock her to zero from a single pass-through. And that's before all the possible save bonuses she might have. We're not even factoring that stuff.

And a single pass-through's probably all they're gonna get, because she could use Feather Fall to cap her fall speed. Better yet, the Simulacrum could use Feather Fall, and she could use Absorb Elements to cut that elemental damage further. She could have Contingency, too.

As you can see, it's a dangerous combo, but a TPK is unlikely to result here.

[Asisreo1]

Okay, so to put the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall into perspective, I'll consider what it'll do to an actual, real-world party of adventurers. This is from a game that's been running since level 3, and is now level 19.

The party consists of a tiefling Evoker, a Lore Bard, a Monk, a Hexblade archer, and a Dex Sorcadin.

Let's say that the enemy is in their best case scenario. The party is all clustered in Fireball formation for some reason. The BBEGs beats everyone's initiative (despite the fact that this party buffs initiative), and they use Subtle Action Surge Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity. And lets say they have a DC19 saving throw.

The Hexblade archer has at-will flight and doesn't especially care which way gravity goes.

The Monk has a solid chance of just... making all the saves with Evasion. Knowing the Monk player, he seriously might run through a Prismatic Wall on purpose just to make the enemy's face more amusing to punch. He's like that.

The remaining three (Bard, Wizard, Dex Sorcadin) have decent chances of making their saves, since they all have decent Dex, all support each other and (by virtue of being in Fireball formation) are all in the Paladin's aura.

Let's say they fail and fall. I don't have the sheets for anyone but the Wizard here atm so let's look at her. She has 139 hit points counting Inspiring Leader, and a +3 Dex save (including her Cloak of Protection). +8 if she's in the Paladin's aura. +1d12 if she has Bardic Inspiration.

But let's ignore all that and say it's just +3. Since she's a Tiefling, she's Resistant to at least one of the layers. And she'll (on average) make 25% of the saving throws for half damage. That means that falling through the wall, she'll take an average of about 137 damage... meaning there's a fair chance it won't knock her to zero from a single pass-through. And that's before all the possible save bonuses she might have. We're not even factoring that stuff.

And a single pass-through's probably all they're gonna get, because she could use Feather Fall to cap her fall speed. Better yet, the Simulacrum could use Feather Fall, and she could use Absorb Elements to cut that elemental damage further. She could have Contingency, too.

As you can see, it's a dangerous combo, but a TPK is unlikely to result here.
I'd be baffled that the party couldn't handle this type of attack at least once.

Of course, the problem with Prismatic Wall was never the damage from the first 5 layers, its the last 2 that make this fight much deadlier. The wizard may be likely to pass their wisdom save but they're having a rough time passing Con saves and getting restrained mid-fight can be extremely debilitating even for a spellcaster. They can't even teleport out of the restraint, they just have to stay restrained and make their saves. In fact, I don't think there's anything the wizard can do except pray they make their saves.

I honestly don't think its safe for anyone to willingly pass through the wall without destroying the layers, at least the last 2.

[LudicSavant]

I'd be baffled that the party couldn't handle this type of attack at least once.

Of course, the problem with Prismatic Wall was never the damage from the first 5 layers, its the last 2 that make this fight much deadlier. The wizard may be likely to pass their wisdom save but they're having a rough time passing Con saves and getting restrained mid-fight can be extremely debilitating even for a spellcaster. They can't even teleport out of the restraint, they just have to stay restrained and make their saves. In fact, I don't think there's anything the wizard can do except pray they make their saves.

I honestly don't think its safe for anyone to willingly pass through the wall without destroying the layers, at least the last 2.

The Wizard actually has a quite high chance of making their Con saves, since they have Res(Con), a Cloak of Protection, and access to various save boosters (either from themselves or teammates), not the least of which being the Paladin's aura (if they're going to be in Fireball formation for this combo to hit in the first place). And has to fail two Dexterity saves before they even have a chance to fail said Con save. And then has ways to negate the effect if it ever reaches their turn.

As for the Monk... counting the Paladin aura they have a +17 Dex save plus rerolls. The chances of the combo stopping them is vanishingly slim.

[PattThe]

First off, use prismatic walls in dungeons as permanent structures blocking an objective. Perhaps you can rule it as being a different type of magic, like dragon magic. A clutch of prismatic dragon eggs that must be kept inside of a Prismatic Sphere, which doubles as a defensive structure in a dungeon. Scatter the types of damage (an everburning flame object, some item that exudes cold, a sparking fuel cell, etc) through the dungeon for the party to collect.

Pull some Metal Gear Solid nonsense with them running back and forth with their 'key cards' to unlock the layers one by one before they regenerate.
//////////
If a spellcaster uses it on you, just dispel magic.

[Thunderous Mojo]

If a spellcaster uses it on you, just dispel magic.

Dispel Magic only works on the Violet level.

Not to deviate too far from the thread topic, but the grognard in me is extremely disappointed by 5e's version of Prismatic Sphere.

Why is every layer a Dex save? How exactly does one dodge magically deadly photons?

Why does the Blinded effect require a save, instead of using a HP threshold like the Powerword spells?

Why do poisons and the Green Layer not cause death?
The spell is just a huge disappointment.

Now, I do like that the spell is more "party friendly" and can be used
cooperatively now. In the AD&Ds (1e and 2e)...only the caster was free from the effects.

In games I DM, I use the 2e version and up the damage.

(My apologies for the rant, I've had that bottled up inside since 2014).

[PattThe]

Dispel Magic only works on the Violet level.

Not to deviate too far from the thread topic, but the grognard in me is extremely disappointed by 5e's version of Prismatic Sphere.

Why is every layer a Dex save? How exactly does one dodge magically deadly photons?

Why does the Blinded effect require a save, instead of using a HP threshold like the Powerword spells?

Why do poisons and the Green Layer not cause death?
The spell is just a huge disappointment.

Now, I do like that the spell is more "party friendly" and can be used
cooperatively now. In the AD&Ds (1e and 2e)...only the caster was free from the effects.

In games I DM, I use the 2e version and up the damage.

(My apologies for the rant, I've had that bottled up inside since 2014).

It's a legacy spell, is it not? You can't expect smooth design on ANY of the legacy spells.
Every person who'se ever read through the PHB knows the trick to this spell. No DM with proficient 5e players should ever EVER use this spell as it is in the PHB. Make it look like it's a prismatic wall, but change every layer. This should be a DM's favorite shuffle-the-deck tool in their pocket.

[Thunderous Mojo]

It's a legacy spell, is it not? You can't expect smooth design on ANY of the legacy spells.


Practically every spell effect is part of the legacy of the game's prior versions. There is very little underivative content in 5e.

Now, much of the content is quite well designed, some is merely serviceable, and some content, (like many of the 9th level spells) are Sins, in the sense that many of the 9th level spells just miss the mark.🏹

[PattThe]

Practically every spell effect is part of the legacy of the game's prior versions. There is very little underivative content in 5e.

Now, much of the content is quite well designed, some is merely serviceable, and some content, (like many of the 9th level spells) are Sins, in the sense that many of the 9th level spells just miss the mark.🏹

You can't blame 5e on that. I mean you can, but the entire game was designed on playtesting. Almost nobody in DND Next cast any 9th level spells. The system isn't designed to hold anyone's hand at that point. Spells at the higher levels are subject to the table for making them work. At that point, wizards should be crafting their own spells with the DM, tbh.

[MaxWilson]

Dispel Magic only works on the Violet level.

Not to deviate too far from the thread topic, but the grognard in me is extremely disappointed by 5e's version of Prismatic Sphere.

Why is every layer a Dex save? How exactly does one dodge magically deadly photons?

Why does the Blinded effect require a save, instead of using a HP threshold like the Powerword spells?

Why do poisons and the Green Layer not cause death?
The spell is just a huge disappointment.

Now, I do like that the spell is more "party friendly" and can be used
cooperatively now. In the AD&Ds (1e and 2e)...only the caster was free from the effects.

In games I DM, I use the 2e version and up the damage.

(My apologies for the rant, I've had that bottled up inside since 2014).

FWIW, all my posts on this thread have also been very quiet rants about the same subject: disappointing nerfs to an iconic spell. (10 minute duration is pathetic.)

[SteadyAim]

Okay, so to put the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall into perspective, I'll consider what it'll do to an actual, real-world party of adventurers. This is from a game that's been running since level 3, and is now level 19.

The party consists of a tiefling Evoker, a Lore Bard, a Monk, a Hexblade archer, and a Dex Sorcadin.

Let's say that the enemy is in their best case scenario. The party is all clustered in Fireball formation for some reason. The BBEGs beats everyone's initiative (despite the fact that this party buffs initiative), and they use Subtle Action Surge Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity. And lets say they have a DC19 saving throw.

The Hexblade archer has at-will flight and doesn't especially care which way gravity goes.

The Monk has a solid chance of just... making all the saves with Evasion. Knowing the Monk player, he seriously might run through a Prismatic Wall on purpose just to make the enemy's face more amusing to punch. He's like that.

The remaining three (Bard, Wizard, Dex Sorcadin) have decent chances of making their saves, since they all have decent Dex, all support each other and (by virtue of being in Fireball formation) are all in the Paladin's aura.

Let's say they fail and fall. I don't have the sheets for anyone but the Wizard here atm so let's look at her. She has 139 hit points counting Inspiring Leader, and a +3 Dex save (including her Cloak of Protection). +8 if she's in the Paladin's aura. +1d12 if she has Bardic Inspiration.

But let's ignore all that and say it's just +3. Since she's a Tiefling, she's Resistant to at least one of the layers. And she'll (on average) make 25% of the saving throws for half damage. That means that falling through the wall, she'll take an average of about 137 damage... meaning there's a fair chance it won't knock her to zero from a single pass-through. And that's before all the possible save bonuses she might have. We're not even factoring that stuff.

And a single pass-through's probably all they're gonna get, because she could use Feather Fall to cap her fall speed. Better yet, the Simulacrum could use Feather Fall, and she could use Absorb Elements to cut that elemental damage further. She could have Contingency, too.

As you can see, it's a dangerous combo, but a TPK is unlikely to result here.

I think we need to examine your proposed scenario in detail.

The BBEG in question is a Fighter 2/Wizard 18 with a Simulacrum (that you forgot about)

And we are matching this single 20th level BBEG with a 20th level Simulacrum minion against a party of 5 19th level characters (and 1 Simulacrum) all of whom have a range of Dex between 16 and 20 (to simulate a representative sample)?

Is this correct? Are we evaluating the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall combo by stacking 3 to 1 odds against the BBEG and running him up against a Dex themed party?

I am okay with the stacked odds scenario you are presenting as long as you are aware that you are very much cooking the books here. You have forgotten the BBEGs Simulacrum and the Scry and Teleport that preceded the attack. So which of the characters has Alert? We need to resolve the surprise round first.

It is important to play a BBEG as intelligent.

[Valmark]

I think we need to examine your proposed scenario in detail.

The BBEG in question is a Fighter 2/Wizard 18 with a Simulacrum (that you forgot about)

And we are matching this single 20th level BBEG with a 20th level Simulacrum minion against a party of 5 19th level characters (and 1 Simulacrum) all of whom have a range of Dex between 16 and 20 (to simulate a representative sample)?

Is this correct? Are we evaluating the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall combo by stacking 3 to 1 odds against the BBEG and running him up against a Dex themed party?

I am okay with the stacked odds scenario you are presenting as long as you are aware that you are very much cooking the books here. You have forgotten the BBEGs Simulacrum and the Scry and Teleport that preceded the attack. So which of the characters has Alert? We need to resolve the surprise round first.

It is important to play a BBEG as intelligent.

Uuuhm... There is no Simulacrum because the BBEG doesn't need a Simulacrum to do it.

And they were assumed to have won initiative so the surprise round isn't needed, nor does the Dex-based part matter given all the buffs they have (which were ignored for the sake of it on the non-dex based ones!).

Almost everything Ludic posted was stacked against the party, not the BBEG. Plus if you want to account for Scry-and-Teleport what's to say the party doesn't have a way to counter that when they too have casters capable of doing exactly the same thing?

Not that it matters, again, since winning initiative+Action Surge does the same thing.

[SteadyAim]

Uuuhm... There is no Simulacrum because the BBEG doesn't need a Simulacrum to do it.

And they were assumed to have won initiative so the surprise round isn't needed, nor does the Dex-based part matter given all the buffs they have (which were ignored for the sake of it on the non-dex based ones!).

Almost everything Ludic posted was stacked against the party, not the BBEG. Plus if you want to account for Scry-and-Teleport what's to say the party doesn't have a way to counter that when they too have casters capable of doing exactly the same thing?

Not that it matters, again, since winning initiative+Action Surge does the same thing.

Oh, so we are stacking 6 to 1 odds against the BBEG, is that correct?

Six 19th level characters against one 20th level character who is playing intentionally dumb by not having a Simulacrum?

[Valmark]

Oh, so we are stacking 6 to 1 odds against the BBEG, is that correct?

Six 19th level characters against one 20th level character who is playing intentionally dumb by not having a Simulacrum?

A lot of things were ignored in favor of the BBEG, so I really don't know what you're getting at. Again, the Simulacrum serves nothing for the specific Prismatic Wall+Reverse Gravity combo.

[SteadyAim]

A lot of things were ignored in favor of the BBEG, so I really don't know what you're getting at. Again, the Simulacrum serves nothing for the specific Prismatic Wall+Reverse Gravity combo.

Ok cool so the BBEG is smart and obviously has a Simulacrum. You think it serves nothing so I will go ahead and have one. Also, the BBEG is smart so he thinks the element of surprise is significant. So I will use the element of surprise against 6 to 1 odds. If my 20th level character can wipe six 19th level characters with the element of surprise with the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo that is winning the argument.

Also, let's do a full analysis, shall we? How about we actually research the issue instead of cooking the books and pretending we are not cooking the books?

Let's start with even odds.

My 20th level versus his Evoker also 20th level. No Simulacrums. No magic items.

I go first since the claim is that it boils down to initiative. Ludic will also then have chance to go first. We can compare the combo versus other avenues to success.

We can then build up the odds from there against the BBEG. However when you add pcs against the BBEG you need to lower the CR of the party or you need to offer an explanation of why you think ignoring CR will lead to a successful analysis.

Let's actually assess the true potency of the Prismatic Wall Reverse Gravity combo rather than cooking the books.

[Mr Adventurer]

If he's a BBEG then he's not a 20th level character. Monsters follow different rules.

[Unoriginal]

Any old grappler can inflict insane damage with Prismatic Wall. Only very specific and gimmicky builds can inflict insane damage with Spike Growth.

Further, any BBEG who doesn't combo Reverse Gravity and wipe the entire party with Prismatic Wall is being intentionally dumb. Metamagic Adept makes the entire combo unstoppable and reduces the game to an initiative roll.

Or am I missing something?

Why are you assuming that falling on a Prismatic Wall means instant death?

Why are you assuming the PCs have no way of handling falling, for that matter?

[Yucca]

Let's actually assess the true potency of the Prismatic Wall Reverse Gravity combo rather than cooking the books.

I think the point of LucidServent's post was to demonstrate how a typical level 19 party would be affected by this spell combo, not to theorycraft an entire encounter with a lvl 20 caster who used this tactic. None of his example PCs seemed overpowered, nor did his assumptions about bonuses seem out of line with normal.

If you want to theorycraft the encounter (which you clearly do) go for it, that can be a lot of fun. But don't argue that the above poster was being disingenuous; they were answering a different question than the one you're currently posing.

Is the spell combo an automatic TPK for a high level party? No (answered above)
How would a high level party handle an encounter with an optimized Fighter2/Wizard18 who opened the fight by winning surprise and initiative and casting this combo? Dunno - theorycraft away!

[Valmark]

Ok cool so the BBEG is smart and obviously has a Simulacrum. You think it serves nothing so I will go ahead and have one. Also, the BBEG is smart so he thinks the element of surprise is significant. So I will use the element of surprise against 6 to 1 odds. If my 20th level character can wipe six 19th level characters with the element of surprise with the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo that is winning the argument.

Also, let's do a full analysis, shall we? How about we actually research the issue instead of cooking the books and pretending we are not cooking the books?

Let's start with even odds.

My 20th level versus his Evoker also 20th level. No Simulacrums. No magic items.

I go first since the claim is that it boils down to initiative. Ludic will also then have chance to go first. We can compare the combo versus other avenues to success.

We can then build up the odds from there against the BBEG. However when you add pcs against the BBEG you need to lower the CR of the party or you need to offer an explanation of why you think ignoring CR will lead to a successful analysis.

Let's actually assess the true potency of the Prismatic Wall Reverse Gravity combo rather than cooking the books.

You do realize this whole example works out exactly the same as LS' one yes? At least the version where you get initiative.

You said no magic items when the Cloak was ignored, you said to go first when the BBEG was already assumed to go first and no Simulacrum which already didn't feature (at least meaningfully).

I really don't get what you're taking issue with. Being an AoE it's actually worst with fewer targets.

If you want to go more in detail and plan out an actual, detailed encounter you're better off making a specific topic about it.

[Tanarii]

Do keep in mind 9th level spells potentially might be used again low Tier 3 PC parties. That's one of the reasons they can't be too OP.

[MaxWilson]

I think the point of LucidServent's post was to demonstrate how a typical level 19 party would be affected by this spell combo, not to theorycraft an entire encounter with a lvl 20 caster who used this tactic. None of his example PCs seemed overpowered,

Yeah, those aren't just example PCs created for an Internet thread, they're actual PCs from his current campaign. Fundamentally the statement being made is "that tactic wouldn't TPK my party even if we were both stupid and unlucky." The implicit corollary is "it's fine for a 9th level spell to do that."

[Mr Adventurer]

That tactic wouldn't TPK my party of level 4 - because the rogue is always running off ahead 🙄.

[LudicSavant]

Yeah, those aren't just example PCs created for an Internet thread, they're actual PCs from his current campaign. Fundamentally the statement being made is "that tactic wouldn't TPK my party even if we were both stupid and unlucky." The implicit corollary is "it's fine for a 9th level spell to do that."

Pretty much. That’s a good way to summarize my sentiment.


Let's start with even odds.

My 20th level versus his Evoker also 20th level. No Simulacrums. No magic items.

I go first since the claim is that it boils down to initiative. Ludic will also then have chance to go first. We can compare the combo versus other avenues to success.

:smallconfused:

How did this go from “I’m concerned that this is so wildly OP that any BBEG who wins initiative will TPK a high level party with no chance to respond and any BBEG is dumb not to use this combo” to “using a party from your actual, real Saturday game is cheating, 1v1 PvP me?”

PCs generally aren’t built for 1v1 PvP. For example if you Wall of Force our Monk 1v1, he’d be rendered utterly helpless, but even though enemies try to do that to him on a regular basis, the usual effect is just that it costs us some counterspells or a disintegrate or a tandem teleport to bust him out. Good PCs cover each others’ weaknesses.

Anyways, all of that said, here’s what each character can do if they’re somehow caught 1v1 against a subtle casting Reverse Gravity+Prismatic Wall.

The Monk and Sorcadin would survive more often than not, simply by virtue of saving throws.

The Warlock archer would be unaffected always because she doesn’t care which way is down.

The Wizard would activate Contingency if she lost initiative and failed her saves, and just dump meteors or magic missiles on the enemy and their simulacrum if they didn’t. They would only use the MM if they could get their construct to stop enemy reactions (e.g. Shield). Also, as established, they have a fair chance of surviving a fall through the wall.

The Bard has Find Greater Steed and rides a pegasus (they usually let someone else ride it, but hey, we are apparently stuck 1v1 now). I suppose it’d be up to a DM ruling to determine if he’s at risk of falling off and what to roll (if anything) to determine that. He also casts Foresight every day (usually on the Warlock but she wouldn’t be around) and has access to a +1d12 inspiration. His main problem would be that he’d have no good way to kill anything 1v1, he generally helps enhance everyone *else’s* ability to kill things. But he has a solid chance of at least escaping.

Of course, none of these characters were ever designed to fight 1v1 and it’s kind of weird that we’re even talking about such a thing as if it somehow matters. I mean, if we were talking about 1v1, a *lot* of things wreck you if you fail a save. That’s nothing unusual to me.

[Tanarii]

That tactic wouldn't TPK my party of level 4 - because the rogue is always running off ahead 🙄.
Hahaha isn't that the Rogue's job though. To find the enemy, even if it's by dying messily? :smallamused:

[Mr Adventurer]

Hahaha isn't that the Rogue's job though. To find the enemy, even if it's by dying messily? :smallamused:

Apparently.

[Asisreo1]

PCs generally aren’t built for 1v1 PvP. For example if you Wall of Force our Monk 1v1, he’d be rendered utterly helpless, but even though enemies try to do that to him on a regular basis, the usual effect is just that it costs us some counterspells or a disintegrate or a tandem teleport to bust him out. Good PCs cover each others’ weaknesses.

Nah, your monk woulda been completely fine. Just Astral Projection yourself out of the wall and come back to the material plane somewhere else. Might take a moment, but you're not helpless.

[LudicSavant]

Nah, your monk woulda been completely fine. Just Astral Projection yourself out of the wall and come back to the material plane somewhere else. Might take a moment, but you're not helpless.

Oh true. He can Astral Project now.

[MaxWilson]

The Bard has Find Greater Steed and rides a pegasus (they usually let someone else ride it, but hey, we are apparently stuck 1v1 now). I suppose it’d be up to a DM ruling to determine if he’s at risk of falling off and what to roll (if anything) to determine that. He also casts Foresight every day (usually on the Warlock but she wouldn’t be around) and has access to a +1d12 inspiration. His main problem would be that he’d have no good way to kill anything 1v1, he generally helps enhance everyone *else’s* ability to kill things. But he has a solid chance of at least escaping.

Although you can't inspire yourself, so the +d12 is mostly pointless in 1v1 scenarios, except for Peerless Skill (ability checks only, not saves) and inspiring the steed.

But yeah, 1v1 isn't even relevant.

[LudicSavant]

Although you can't inspire yourself, so the +d12 is mostly pointless in 1v1 scenarios, except for Peerless Skill (ability checks only, not saves) and inspiring the steed.

But yeah, 1v1 isn't even relevant.

It matters if he has access to his Simulacrum. And also for Cutting Words and Peerless Skill, which (among other things) are relevant for initiative.

[SteadyAim]

Ludic Savant,

Remember we are performing a comparative analysis here or did you lose sight of that. This is why you presenting a Dex themed party as a test case should be challenged.

I can accept the scenario you propose. The BBEG simply cuts concentration on Reverse Gravity when the Evoker emerges out of the top of the Prismatic Wall (with 30 feet of Feather Fall remaining). Your Simulacrum is already dead at this point. Your Evoker Feather Falls through the top layer and dies. Your other characters are subjected to two more passings through the wall so let's sort out who perishes.

Lets compare the performance of the combo to your suggested alternatives.

If the BBEG gets a Simulacrum like yours did then the combo wipes everyone except the Flying Warlock. The ability of the Flying Warlock to survive is not a surprise. The end result of the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo is wiping 4 characters and 1 Simulacrum and a sudden reversal of odds.

[Unoriginal]

Ludic Savant,

Remember we are performing a comparative analysis here or did you lose sight of that.

A comparative analysis between what and what?



This is why you presenting a Dex themed party as a test case should be challenged.

Why? It's an actual party made by actual players.


Your other characters are subjected to two more passings through the wall so let's sort out who perishes.

How are they subjected to that?



If my character gets a Simulacrum like yours did then the combo wipes everyone except the Flying Warlock.

Your character? Who is your character supposed to be?

What is your character?

[SteadyAim]

A comparative analysis between what and what?



Why? It's an actual party made by actual players.



How are they subjected to that?



Your character? Who is your character supposed to be?

What is your character?

Read the thread. We are comparing Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo to other alternate methods to evaluate how powerful the combo really is.

The combo performs far better than all other alternatives even against a party stacked with Dex based characters as I have shown. And the combo will perform at an even greater damage output should we test it against a more representative sample party (one not so obviously leaning on Dex).

[Valmark]

Ludic Savant,

Remember we are performing a comparative analysis here or did you lose sight of that. This is why you presenting a Dex themed party as a test case should be challenged.

I can accept the scenario you propose. The BBEG simply cuts concentration on Reverse Gravity when the Evoker emerges out of the top of the Prismatic Wall (with 30 feet of Feather Fall remaining). Your Simulacrum is already dead at this point. Your Evoker Feather Falls through the top layer and dies. Your other characters are subjected to two more passings through the wall so let's sort out who perishes.

Lets compare the performance of the combo to your suggested alternatives.

If the BBEG gets a Simulacrum like yours did then the combo wipes everyone except the Flying Warlock. The ability of the Flying Warlock to survive is not a surprise. The end result of the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo is wiping 4 characters and 1 Simulacrum and a sudden reversal of odds.

This doesn't work. The characters fall to the top when you cast the spell, Duration is for when they fall down.

[SteadyAim]

This doesn't work. The characters fall to the top when you cast the spell, Duration is for when they fall down.

Not exactly. Dropping concentration on Reverse Gravity changes the direction of falling.

[Valmark]

Not exactly. Dropping concentration on Reverse Gravity changes the direction of falling.

Well... It explicitely mentions that characters float for the Duration, so they aren't falling prior to dropping Concentration.

EDIT: The claim that it's far better then any other combo isn't even what is being talked about. The argument was that it's one of the many combos/features that can end an encounter single-handedly if you don't have a counter for them.

[SteadyAim]

Well... It explicitely mentions that characters float for the Duration, so they aren't falling prior to dropping Concentration.

EDIT: The claim that it's far better then any other combo isn't even what is being talked about. The argument was that it's one of the many combos/features that can end an encounter single-handedly if you don't have a counter for them.

Feather Fall lowers the rate of "descent".

I presented how the BBEG wipes every member of the party except for the Flyer.

The combo is an order of magnitude better than all other alternatives.

This is a problem in my opinion because the combo is enabled by changing the spell description with a house rule.

[LudicSavant]

This is why you presenting a Dex themed party as a test case should be challenged.

:smallconfused:

Okay, so like half a dozen people have already called you out on this.

I didn't make a Dex-themed party. I didn't even make the party for the purposes of this thread; it's just the party I happen to have in one of my currently ongoing campaigns (the only one that is currently at tier 4). It's the same party from the art thread I posted a while back.

Only 2 out of the 5 characters have Dexterity as a primary stat. The other 3 just didn't dump it, which is by no means unusual. I wouldn't say this is any more "Dex-themed" than any of my other parties.


The ability of the Flying Warlock to survive is not a surprise. The end result of the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo is wiping 4 characters and 1 Simulacrum and a sudden reversal of odds.

Your proposed outcome is actually highly mathematically improbable for reasons already stated. I'm not sure why you think this outcome is likely.

[Unoriginal]

Not exactly. Dropping concentration on Reverse Gravity changes the direction of falling.

Dropping the concentration ends the spell, resulting in it having to be cast again.



I presented how the BBEG wipes every member of the party except for the Flyer.

You have not.

If you want to actually present this claim, you will have to show us all of your calculations.



The combo is an order of magnitude better than all other alternatives.

Doesn't matter, this was never debated, since 9th level spells are hopefully powerful. But as long as it is not demonstrated that this combo is as efficient as you claimed it to be, though, it doesn't prove anything about what you've been talking about.


I'm not sure why you think this outcome is likely.

Just another case of Wizard supremacy "I don't have to prove anything" attitude, most probably.

[SteadyAim]

:smallconfused:

Okay, so like half a dozen people have already called you out on this.

I didn't make a Dex-themed party. I didn't even make the party for the purposes of this thread; it's just the party I happen to have in one of my currently ongoing campaigns (the only one that is currently at tier 4). It's the same party from the art thread I posted a while back.

Only 2 out of the 5 characters have Dexterity as a primary stat. The other 3 just didn't dump it, which is by no means unusual. I wouldn't say this is any more "Dex-themed" than any of my other parties.



Your proposed outcome is actually highly mathematically improbable for reasons already stated. I'm not sure why you think this outcome is likely.

Each character (except the Flyer) is subjected to 4 passings through the Prismatic Wall. Eight passings if the BBEG gets a Simulacrum. Let's do the math and then let's compare to the alternatives you proposed.

I am sure you are interested in being competent in your analysis of this issue. So we should consider parties with clerics and strength based paladins in them in addition to the Dex based party you presented. We want unskewed analysis, right?

[Unoriginal]

Each character is subjected to 4 passings through the Prismatic Wall.

How?


We want unskewed analysis, right?

Sorry to state the obvious, but you clearly don't, SteadAim. We all can read your posts.

[SteadyAim]

How?



Sorry to state the obvious, but you clearly don't, SteadAim. We all can read your posts.

The Prismatic Wall is created as a sphere directly above the characters heads. Reverse Gravity causes them to fall through the wall twice then Reverse Gravity is dropped to cause them to fall twice more through the sphere. Only the Flyer avoids this.

Let's do the math Ludic. You have the character sheets.

[Valmark]

Feather Fall lowers the rate of "descent".

I presented how the BBEG wipes every member of the party except for the Flyer.

The combo is an order of magnitude better than all other alternatives.

This is a problem in my opinion because the combo is enabled by changing the spell description with a house rule.
So your reply to being told that Feather Fall wouldn't let the party fall again is to change and say that Feather Fall won't work in the first place?

[LudicSavant]

Each character (except the Flyer) is subjected to 4 passings through the Prismatic Wall. Eight passings if the BBEG gets a Simulacrum. Let's do the math and then let's compare to the alternatives you proposed.

Again, this is highly mathematically unlikely.

Like, you're acting like even the Monk will just automatically fail all their Dex saves. It's just not gonna happen.

[Unoriginal]

The Prismatic Wall is created as a sphere directly above the characters heads. Reverse Gravity causes them to fall through the wall twice then Reverse Gravity is dropped to cause them to fall twice more through the sphere. Only the Flyer avoids this.

EDIT: edited for slight rule error.

Untrue. You can only go through a Prismatic Wall if you succeed a save for the Indigo layer.

In fact there is no indication that being thrown/falling on a Prismatic Wall does anything except the equivalent of slamming against any other wall.

But even if like people in this thread you do rule that just being pushed against the wall means you have to make the saves, it doesn't change the fact you can only get through if you succeed the Indigo layer's save.


You also have not explained how your BBEG manages to guarantee all of the group is into the 30ft diameter circle they need to be to all be caught by the sphere when Reverse Gravity hits.


Also the fight would have to take place in a room with a ceiling at least 40ft above the floor for that combo to work as you said it would. Being outside would work too but Reverse Gravity outside is already much stronger outside, so there is no surprise here.

[SteadyAim]

Again, this is highly mathematically unlikely.

Like, you're acting like even the Monk will just automatically fail all their Dex saves. It's just not gonna happen.

With 4 forced falls at Feather Fall speed through the Prismatic Wall that is 28 saves each character must make. Once the Paladin succumbs the rate of death will increase and even the Monk will succumb.

If a Simulacum is available (and why wouldn't there be a Simulacrum for the BBEG?) then that will be 56 saves for each character to make.

Also, if the BBEG has the Telekinetic feat then that is an additional bonus action 14 saves (or 28 saves if the BBEG) for an unlucky character (assuming they fail their strength save). So the series of events would be cast Prismatic Wall then Telekinetic Shove (to soften a key character like the Dex Sorcadin) then Action Surge then Reverse Gravity.

Of course we can also combine this strategy with grapplers or grapplers plus AMF for a whole new level of OP shenanigans.

If you don't want to do the math then please provide the statistics of the characters so that I can demonstrate with a mathematical proof.


Untrue. You can only go through a Prismatic Wall if you succeed a save for the Indigo layer.

The restrained condition does not prevent forced movement.

And it is important to keep track of since it imposes disadvantage on Dexterity saving throws.

[LudicSavant]

With 4 forced falls at Feather Fall speed through the Prismatic Wall that is 28 saves each character must make.

No, no they don't.

First of all, if you make the save against Reverse Gravity, you do not then make successive saves against Prismatic Wall.

Second of all, the Monk you're just assuming is dead has a 1 in 400 chance of failing a Dexterity save, or less, depending on the abilities the party's using at the time. And you need not one but lots of saving throws to fail in order for them to actually die.

Third of all, your original argument was that Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall is just a TPK machine that enemies are dumb not to use in general.

It appears that the combo you're now suggesting is... let me see if I have this right... Win initiative, have enemy in clustered fireball formation, Simulacrum, Action Surge x2, Reverse Gravity x2, Prismatic Wall x2, make a ruling that you can break Concentration mid-action so that only part of the initial Reverse Gravity action resolves. And it's still not TPKing.

Fourth of all, your ruling regarding feather fall seems unorthodox (as others have pointed out). I don't think you can interrupt the initial Action by ending Concentration, only cut the Duration.

[SteadyAim]

No, no they don't.

First of all, if you make the save against Reverse Gravity, you do not then make successive saves against Prismatic Wall. That's not how anything works.

Second of all, the Monk you're just assuming is dead has a 1 in 400 chance of failing a Dexterity save, or less, depending on the abilities the party's using at the time. And you need not one but lots of saving throws to fail in order for them to actually die.

Third of all, your original argument was that Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall is just a TPK machine that enemies are dumb not to use in general.

It appears that the combo you're now suggesting is... let me see if I have this right... Win initiative, have enemy in clustered fireball formation, Simulacrum, Action Surge x2, Reverse Gravity x2, Prismatic Wall x2, make a ruling that you can break Concentration mid-action so that only part of the initial Reverse Gravity action resolves. And it's still not TPKing.

Provide the stats and I will demonstrate the math and the TPKing (minus the flyer of course). We already know the Wizard and his Simulacrum are dead and the Bard and Sorcadin are soon to follow. The monk is a tough nut to crack but the monk eventually succumbs after the Sorcadin does.

Once we fully research how OP the combo is we can further explore the other OP combo that your house rule of Prismatic Wall opens up. Prismatic Wall + AMF + grappling. Now that one is good fun!

[Mr Adventurer]

I don't understand, what's the relevance of Feather Fall?

[LudicSavant]

We already know the Wizard and his Simulacrum are dead and the Bard and Sorcadin are soon to follow. The monk is a tough nut to crack but the monk eventually succumbs after the Sorcadin does.

No, we don't already know that. You have claimed that, without evidence, over the objections of... basically every other person in the thread, apparently.

I am still curious how you believe any of this is going to occur.

How are you making the Monk fail a save against Reverse Gravity, when he has a 1 in 400 chance of doing so? What precisely will cause them to "eventually succumb"?

How are you dealing with the Bard and Wizard having Contingency?

How are you assuming the majority of the party fails a save against Reverse Gravity, given that they're in Fireball formation around a Paladin and didn't dump Dexterity? Let alone if they have any of their save buffs up (the Bard uses them frequently, especially Foresight).

How are you dealing with the Bard's Greater Steed?

You just keep saying that you do. You never tell us how.

So, to reiterate Unoriginal's question:


How?

[Unoriginal]

No, we don't already know that. You have claimed that, without evidence, over the objections of... basically every other person in the thread, apparently.

I am still curious how you believe any of this is going to occur.

How are you making the Monk fail a save against Reverse Gravity, when he has a 1 in 400 chance of doing so? What precisely will cause them to "eventually succumb"?

How are you dealing with the Bard and Wizard having Contingency?

How are you assuming the majority of the party fails a save against Reverse Gravity, given that they're in Fireball formation around a Paladin and didn't dump Dexterity?

How are you dealing with the Bard's Greater Steeds and save buffs?

You just keep saying that you do. You never tell us how.


While you're correct, SteadyAim has said they will calculate what they think would happen if you tell them the relevant stats, and I for one am curious about it.

[SteadyAim]

No, we don't already know that. You have claimed that, without evidence, over the objections of... basically every other person in the thread, apparently.

I am still curious how you believe any of this is going to occur.

How are you making the Monk fail a save against Reverse Gravity, when he has a 1 in 400 chance of doing so? What precisely will cause them to "eventually succumb"?

How are you dealing with the Bard and Wizard having Contingency?

How are you assuming the majority of the party fails a save against Reverse Gravity, given that they're in Fireball formation around a Paladin and didn't dump Dexterity?

How are you dealing with the Bard's Greater Steeds and save buffs?

You just keep saying that you do. You never tell us how.

So, to reiterate Unoriginal's question:

You only get a save with Reverse Gravity if there are fixed objects to grab a hold of. What fixed objects are they grabbing hold of?

Please provide the stats for the characters and I will demonstrate the math. I will of course address the original scenario and not the late additions.

I am approaching this as a matter of curiosity to determine how OP Prismatic Wall becomes if we house rule that involuntary movement triggers the magical effects of the spell.

[kingcheesepants]

Well ignoring whether or not Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity is a TPK move that most enemies with 9th level Wizard spells should use (I'd say that it's a good move but certainly not an auto win).

The main question of the thread was, what should a party that needs to get through a prismatic wall and a regular wall without a wizard do?

Some have suggested waiting the 10 minutes until the spell expires. That works if they can stand around and wait but doesn't work if for example there's something urgent happening beyond the wall, or if the area they're in is extremely dangerous (maybe there's a sickening radiance or something on it), or if it's some NPC permanent version of the spell.

Some have suggested having a monk (or another party member with a good Dex save and or the ability to take the damage) run through. This works if they can get through the regular wall as well somehow and the rest of the party doesn't need to join them. But if the whole party needs to get through or if the monk can't break down enough of a regular physical to get through in 1 round then this doesn't work.

Some have said that someone with a teleport effect could get through. This is questionable because the Indigo layer (layer 6) stops spells from being cast through the wall. Does teleporting through a place count as a spell being cast through it? It's up to the DMs discretion but I'm inclined to say that you can't teleport through while the Indigo layer is in place.

Others have suggested having the party push someone through. Even without addressing the question of whether or not a person can be pushed through a prismatic wall, they certainly can't be pushed through a regular wall without some heavy damage and most likely the person doing the shoving will be reaching into the prismatic wall at some point. So the idea doesn't really work. But let's say there isn't a physical wall there and you want to push a party member through. Can you do so and will they take damage from it? Let's look at this a little more thoroughly.

Can an unwilling person be pushed through the wall? The most relevant wording in the spell description is
When a creature attempts to reach into or pass through the wall, it does so one layer at a time through all the wall's layers If you want to say that an unwilling person can be pushed through the wall than you are saying that the attempt is not referring to the creatures mental state or willingness/unwillingness to go through but rather anyone or thing (gravity or whatever) attempting to push them through the wall. This isn't super natural language, I would never say that I'm attempting to reach the center of the earth because gravity is pulling me towards the earth and I would not say that I'm attempting to reach the bottom of the pool if someone was pushing me under water. The main reason to think that a person can be pushed through is because they could try to go through willingly and therefore the wall is obviously permeable. So even if the language is a bit constrained one can argue that if the wall is permeable than the attempt can refer to them going through it whatever their feelings on the matter.

Will an unwilling person going through the wall take damage? Well if the wall doesn't care about the person's feelings for going through than it doesn't care about the person's feelings for damage. If you want to say that they can be pushed through but that they don't take the damage than you're using 2 different methods of interpreting things and being inconsistent. I would say either yes to both push through and damage or no to both (though in the latter there isn't damage to take.)

[SteadyAim]

Well ignoring whether or not Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity is a TPK move that most enemies with 9th level Wizard spells should use (I'd say that it's a good move but certainly not an auto win).

The main question of the thread was, what should a party that needs to get through a prismatic wall and a regular wall without a wizard do?

Some have suggested waiting the 10 minutes until the spell expires. That works if they can stand around and wait but doesn't work if for example there's something urgent happening beyond the wall, or if the area they're in is extremely dangerous (maybe there's a sickening radiance or something on it), or if it's some NPC permanent version of the spell.

Some have suggested having a monk (or another party member with a good Dex save and or the ability to take the damage) run through. This works if they can get through the regular wall as well somehow and the rest of the party doesn't need to join them. But if the whole party needs to get through or if the monk can't break down enough of a regular physical to get through in 1 round then this doesn't work.

Some have said that someone with a teleport effect could get through. This is questionable because all the teleport spells are wizard only. And even if they had access to the spells (through magical secrets or a magic item or a feat or whatever) the Indigo layer (layer 6) stops spells from being cast through the wall. Does teleporting through a place count as a spell being cast through it? It's up to the DMs discretion but I'm inclined to say that you can't teleport through while the Indigo layer is in place.

Others have suggested having the party push someone through. Even without addressing the question of whether or not a person can be pushed through a prismatic wall, they certainly can't be pushed through a regular wall without some heavy damage and most likely the person doing the shoving will be reaching into the prismatic wall at some point. So the idea doesn't really work. But let's say there isn't a physical wall there and you want to push a party member through. Can you do so and will they take damage from it? Let's look at this a little more thoroughly.

Can an unwilling person be pushed through the wall? The most relevant wording in the spell description is If you want to say that an unwilling person can be pushed through the wall than you are saying that the attempt is not referring to the creatures mental state or willingness/unwillingness to go through but rather anyone or thing (gravity or whatever) attempting to push them through the wall. This isn't super natural language, I would never say that I'm attempting to reach the center of the earth because gravity is pulling me towards the earth and I would not say that I'm attempting to reach the bottom of the pool if someone was pushing me under water. The main reason to think that a person can be pushed through is because they could try to go through willingly and therefore the wall is obviously permeable. So even if the language is a bit constrained one can argue that if the wall is permeable than the attempt can refer to them going through it whatever their feelings on the matter.

Will an unwilling person going through the wall take damage? Well if the wall doesn't care about the person's feelings for going through than it doesn't care about the person's feelings for damage. If you want to say that they can be pushed through but that they don't take the damage than you're using 2 different methods of interpreting things and being inconsistent. I would say either yes to both push through and damage or no to both (though in the latter there isn't damage to take.)

The spell description indicates that nonvoluntary movement will not trigger the magical effects.

[kingcheesepants]

The spell description indicates that nonvoluntary movement will not trigger the magical effects.

I quoted the relevant portion of the description. You can certainly interpret it as saying that nonvoluntary movement will not trigger the saves, but in that case it's still a wall.

[Asisreo1]

Some have said that someone with a teleport effect could get through. This is questionable because all the teleport spells are wizard only. And even if they had access to the spells (through magical secrets or a magic item or a feat or whatever) the Indigo layer (layer 6) stops spells from being cast through the wall. Does teleporting through a place count as a spell being cast through it? It's up to the DMs discretion but I'm inclined to say that you can't teleport through while the Indigo layer is in place.

Teleportation Spells are available to Bards, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Trickery Clerics, Coast Druids, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards.

The spell that can bypass Prismatic Wall would be the Teleport Spell since it doesn't target anything through the wall, the spell autopicks the location and the party is transported there. The weakness is that the spell might teleport you somewhere else, even if the DM considers you seeing the location as being Very Familiar with it (its probably actually seen casually or viewed once), you're still looking at a 25% chance of being thrown in a random direction, wasting your 7th-level spell and possibly putting you and the group 20ft or onto the wall.

[SteadyAim]

I quoted the relevant portion of the description. You can certainly interpret it as saying that nonvoluntary movement will not trigger the saves, but in that case it's still a wall.

The spell describes a "plane of light" and the caster can designate who can pass through without harm. I see no indication that there is anything beyond magical "light" which causes things to happen based on magic.

[JackPhoenix]

Teleportation Spells are available to Bards, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Trickery Clerics, Coast Druids, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards.

The spell that can bypass Prismatic Wall would be the Teleport Spell since it doesn't target anything through the wall, the spell autopicks the location and the party is transported there. The weakness is that the spell might teleport you somewhere else, even if the DM considers you seeing the location as being Very Familiar with it (its probably actually seen casually or viewed once), you're still looking at a 25% chance of being thrown in a random direction, wasting your 7th-level spell and possibly putting you and the group 20ft or onto the wall.

Dimension Door and Misty Step too, though Misty Step does require line of sight, so it's hard to make it work in this case (you could try Scrying on whatever's behind the wall, though, but considering it's got the same casting time as the wall's duration...). The entire point of teleportation is that you get from point A to point B without traveling through intervening space.

[Asisreo1]

Dimension Door and Misty Step too, though Misty Step does require line of sight, so it's hard to make it work in this case (you could try Scrying on whatever's behind the wall, though, but considering it's got the same casting time as the wall's duration...). The entire point of teleportation is that you get from point A to point B without traveling through intervening space.
The problem with Dimension Door and Misty Step is that for Dimension Door, you target the location you're teleporting to which can't happen because of the 6th layer. Misty Step needs visibility, but you can't even scry because it also requires you to target what's behind the wall.

[Unoriginal]

The problem with Dimension Door and Misty Step is that for Dimension Door, you target the location you're teleporting to which can't happen because of the 6th layer. Misty Step needs visibility, but you can't even scry because it also requires you to target what's behind the wall.

What parts of the spell description makes its inside untargetable by divination spells?

[kingcheesepants]

Teleportation Spells are available to Bards, Eldritch Knights, Arcane Tricksters, Trickery Clerics, Coast Druids, Sorcerers, Warlocks, and Wizards.

The spell that can bypass Prismatic Wall would be the Teleport Spell since it doesn't target anything through the wall, the spell autopicks the location and the party is transported there. The weakness is that the spell might teleport you somewhere else, even if the DM considers you seeing the location as being Very Familiar with it (its probably actually seen casually or viewed once), you're still looking at a 25% chance of being thrown in a random direction, wasting your 7th-level spell and possibly putting you and the group 20ft or onto the wall.

You're totally correct about the availability. I've edited my post to reflect that.


The spell describes a "plane of light" and the caster can designate who can pass through without harm. I see no indication that there is anything beyond magical "light" which causes things to happen based on magic.
Hence if the caster doesn't designate them they cannot go through unharmed. The light stops things from going through unless the caster designates them beforehand. It stops arrows, swords, spells, but you think it wouldn't stop a person?

[Tanarii]

My favorite part about the spell, at least the way I've always read it, is no matter which direction you start on you always go through the red layer first.

Doesn't really impact the discussion at hand, I just think it's interesting.

[JackPhoenix]

The problem with Dimension Door and Misty Step is that for Dimension Door, you target the location you're teleporting to which can't happen because of the 6th layer. Misty Step needs visibility, but you can't even scry because it also requires you to target what's behind the wall.

How is the wall blocking something that doesn't go THROUGH the wall? Again, that's the entire point of teleportation: whatever is between the starting and ending location doesn't matter.

[SteadyAim]

You're totally correct about the availability. I've edited my post to reflect that.


Hence if the caster doesn't designate them they cannot go through unharmed. The light stops things from going through unless the caster designates them beforehand. It stops arrows, swords, spells, but you think it wouldn't stop a person?

I interpret spells as doing what they say they do.

Layer 1 restricts nonmagical ranged attacks.

Layer 2 restricts magical ranged attacks.

Layer 6 restricts the ability for spells to be cast through the wall.

I don't see a restriction on nonmagical melee attacks or magical melee attacks that aren't spells. Interesting. All of the walls are opaque so you would be blinded if you fought across the wall with a melee weapon (unless you had blindsight).

[Thunderous Mojo]

If you don't want to do the math then please provide the statistics of the characters so that I can demonstrate with a mathematical proof.


I certainly don't wish to come off as engaging in vigilante moderation, but I find this incessant demand that Ludic provide you with the character sheets of his personal game, to be untoward. Would you like Ludic's Social Security number and date of birth as well?

If you want to run some test cases, just create some sample characters for the thread to use. I know in the games I am a player in, I don't have my fellow player's exact statistics.

I state this with kind intent, but repeating the same request, ad nauseam, strikes me as rude, and is distracting me, (at least), from your overall point.



Once we fully research how OP the combo is we can further explore the other OP combo that your house rule of Prismatic Wall opens up. Prismatic Wall + AMF + grappling. Now that one is good fun!

While a Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall combo, is flashy, and definitely a grand memory if you can execute it...I would venture to say, it is not the most efficient combination to use with Prismatic Wall.

If the force opposing the PC's group can wheedle down the PC hit points, an upcast Sleep spell, or anything that renders a creature Unconscious is a better addition, if you want to ensure a Prismatic Wall works well.

Typically, one only need to send an Unconscious creature through a Prismatic Wall once, to ruin their day.

[SteadyAim]

I certainly don't wish to come off as engaging in vigilante moderation, but I find this incessant demand that Ludic provide you with the character sheets of his personal game, to be untoward. Would you like Ludic's Social Security number and date of birth as well?

If you want to run some test cases, just create some sample characters for the thread to use. I know in the games I am a player in, I don't have my fellow player's exact statistics.

I state this with kind intent, but repeating the same request, ad nauseam, strikes me as rude, and is distracting me, (at least), from your overall point

I just need the stats that are relevant to the math (hit points, dex save, con save, wisdom save, relevant abilities to the scenario, so very little info).

We are at a point where math can determine the outcome.

[LudicSavant]

I certainly don't wish to come off as engaging in vigilante moderation, but I find this incessant demand that Ludic provide you with the character sheets of his personal game, to be untoward. Would you like Ludic's Social Security number and date of birth as well?

If you want to run some test cases, just create some sample characters for the thread to use. I know in the games I am a player in, I don't have my fellow player's exact statistics.

I state this with kind intent, but repeating the same request, ad nauseam, strikes me as rude, and is distracting me, (at least), from your overall point.

I kinda felt that way too, so I appreciate you speaking up about it.

I already felt like I had provided sufficient details to address; I've yet to hear him say anything about how he'd address the party's Dex saves, the pegasus mount, Contingency, etc. Like he already knows that the Monk has a +17 Dex saves and level 19 Monk abilities, yet just declared that the Monk dies (how, exactly?)

But alas, here's some more details anyways:


While you're correct, SteadyAim has said they will calculate what they think would happen if you tell them the relevant stats, and I for one am curious about it.

Note (as mentioned earlier in the thread when I first brought it up) that I do not actually possess the character sheets of my teammates, and therefore must go by memory. They have accrued enough magic items to fill their attunement slots on their long journey to level 19, but I'll only list the ones that seem relevant.

The relevant stats for the Monk would be, IIRC "Level 19 Monk abilities, +12 Dex save, +5 if they're in Fireball formation with the Paladin, and they have a Ring of Fire Elemental Command that gives them fire immunity." The end result is that they only fail Dex saves on a 1, and they have access to rerolls (via Monk abilities). Against DC19 that would give them a 1 in 400 chance of failing a Dexterity save. And they're flat out immune to two layers of the wall, and take half damage against the others even if they fail a save (and no damage if they make the save).

The relevant stats for the Wizard would be "14 Dex, Cloak of Resistance, Staff of Frost (cold resistance), a (nerfed) Dagger of Warning, Asmodeus Tiefling (fire resistance), Inspiring Leader, Res(Con), makes a habit of preparing Contingency, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Feather Fall, Counterspell, and Absorb Elements. Has a Simulacrum, and both she and her double have owl familiars that tend to trail the party at a distance carrying potions." They have only a 50% chance of failing a Dexterity save vs Reverse Gravity, and (as shown by earlier math) actually have a pretty good chance to survive at least a single pass through the wall. But they could also just trip Contingency and take zero damage. Or be riding a pegasus (since the Bard tends to lend his to her).

The relevant stats for the Warlock would be "has racial flight, Hexblade 16/Echo Fighter 3, has Gold Dragon Scale Mail and a (nerfed) Ring of Spell Storing. Knows Counterspell."

The relevant stats for the Sorcadin would be "Fire Dragon Redemption Sorcadin with 20 Cha, 20 Dex, has a Ring of Evasion and an Amulet of Health. Tanky as @#$%. Also knows Counterspell." They have a +10 Dexterity save, Evasion, tons of health, and a Resistance.

The relevant stats for the Bard would be "Level 19 Lore Bard, 14 Dex, Cloak of Protection (+1 to saves), Dex save proficiency, usually spends their L9 slots on Foresight, has Contingency+Simulacrum+Greater Steed+Revivify from Magical Secrets, frequently gives a pegasus to the Wizard to ride. Like any high level Lore Bard, tends to make enemies lose initiative. Uses most of their resources on buffs; the player basically plays a full support playstyle. Grapples using Expertise for their own "pull people in and out of hazards" combos. Owns two immovable rods.

If they're in Fireball formation with the Paladin, they get a +14 Dexterity saving throw, potentially more due to their penchant for using protective buffs.

Edit:
I don't know everyone's exact hit points. It's point buy, people haven't been dumping Con, and we don't roll for hit points. Wizard uses Inspiring Leader and that grants +21 temp HP.

Edit2:
My expected result would be:
- A majority of the party succeeds on the Dex saves against Reverse Gravity and takes no damage at all.
- The characters with Contingency have a get-out-of-jail-free card.
- The Warlock is simply immune. Arguably, so is whoever rides a pegasus.
- If it's a single wall, various characters will sometimes survive being tossed through it.
- My understanding would be that you would rise the full height of Reverse Gravity during the Action. Breaking Concentration would just cause it to have no duration beyond the initial action. Ergo you'd wouldn't pass through the wall 4 times with Feather Fall (which affects the entire party).
- Party members who are incapacitated but not dead can be yo-yoed.
- All of this requires the whole party to lose initiative and be in Fireball formation to begin with.

[SteadyAim]

I was starting to think I was the only one that felt that way.

What really made it feel extra rude to me is that he started pursuing that insistence for specific character sheets immediately after said "I don't have the sheets for anyone but the Wizard here atm" and had already given what I feel to be sufficient relevant details for them to address (I haven't seen them even try to address how they'd deal with Contingency, pegasi, the Monk's Dex saves, etc)



Note (as mentioned earlier in the thread when I first brought it up) that I do not actually possess the character sheets of my teammates, and therefore must go by memory. They have accrued enough magic items to fill their attunement slots on their long journey to level 19, but I'll only list the ones that seem relevant.

The relevant stats for the Monk would be, IIRC "Level 19 Monk abilities, +12 Dex save, +5 if they're in Fireball formation with the Paladin, and they have a Ring of Fire Elemental Command that gives them fire immunity." The end result is that they only fail Dex saves on a 1, and they have access to rerolls (via Monk abilities). Against DC19 that would give them a 1 in 400 chance of failing a Dexterity save. And they're flat out immune to two layers of the wall, and take half damage against the others even if they fail a save (and no damage if they make the save).

The relevant stats for the Wizard would be "14 Dex, Cloak of Resistance, Staff of Frost (cold resistance), a (nerfed) Dagger of Warning, Asmodeus Tiefling (fire resistance), Inspiring Leader, Res(Con), makes a habit of preparing Contingency, Otiluke's Resilient Sphere, Feather Fall, Counterspell, and Absorb Elements. Has a Simulacrum, and both she and her double have owl familiars that tend to trail the party at a distance carrying potions." They have only a 50% chance of failing a Dexterity save vs Reverse Gravity, and (as shown by earlier math) actually have a pretty good chance to survive at least a single pass through the wall. But they could also just trip Contingency and take zero damage. Or be riding a pegasus (since the Bard tends to lend his to her).

The relevant stats for the Warlock would be "has racial flight, Hexblade 16/Echo Fighter 3, has Gold Dragon Scale Mail and a (nerfed) Ring of Spell Storing. Knows Counterspell."

The relevant stats for the Sorcadin would be "Fire Dragon Redemption Sorcadin with 20 Cha, 20 Dex, has a Ring of Evasion and an Amulet of Health. Tanky as @#$%. Also knows Counterspell." They have a +10 Dexterity save, Evasion, tons of health, and a Resistance.

The relevant stats for the Bard would be "Level 19 Lore Bard, 14 Dex, Cloak of Protection (+1 to saves), Dex save proficiency, usually spends their L9 slots on Foresight, has Contingency+Simulacrum+Greater Steed+Revivify from Magical Secrets, frequently gives a pegasus to the Wizard to ride. Like any high level Lore Bard, tends to make enemies lose initiative. Uses most of their resources on buffs; the player basically plays a full support playstyle. Grapples using Expertise for their own "pull people in and out of hazards" combos. Owns two immovable rods.

If they're in Fireball formation with the Paladin, they get a +14 Dexterity saving throw, potentially more due to their penchant for using protective buffs.

Thank you very much for your response Ludic.

{Scrubbed}


Okay, so to put the effectiveness of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall into perspective, I'll consider what it'll do to an actual, real-world party of adventurers. This is from a game that's been running since level 3, and is now level 19.

The party consists of a tiefling Evoker, a Lore Bard, a Monk, a Hexblade archer, and a Dex Sorcadin.

Let's say that the enemy is in their best case scenario. The party is all clustered in Fireball formation for some reason. The BBEGs beats everyone's initiative (despite the fact that this party buffs initiative), and they use Subtle Action Surge Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity. And lets say they have a DC19 saving throw.

The Hexblade archer has at-will flight and doesn't especially care which way gravity goes.

The Monk has a solid chance of just... making all the saves with Evasion. Knowing the Monk player, he seriously might run through a Prismatic Wall on purpose just to make the enemy's face more amusing to punch. He's like that.

The remaining three (Bard, Wizard, Dex Sorcadin) have decent chances of making their saves, since they all have decent Dex, all support each other and (by virtue of being in Fireball formation) are all in the Paladin's aura.

Let's say they fail and fall. I don't have the sheets for anyone but the Wizard here atm so let's look at her. She has 139 hit points counting Inspiring Leader, and a +3 Dex save (including her Cloak of Protection). +8 if she's in the Paladin's aura. +1d12 if she has Bardic Inspiration.

But let's ignore all that and say it's just +3. Since she's a Tiefling, she's Resistant to at least one of the layers. And she'll (on average) make 25% of the saving throws for half damage. That means that falling through the wall, she'll take an average of about 137 damage... meaning there's a fair chance it won't knock her to zero from a single pass-through. And that's before all the possible save bonuses she might have. We're not even factoring that stuff.

And a single pass-through's probably all they're gonna get, because she could use Feather Fall to cap her fall speed. Better yet, the Simulacrum could use Feather Fall, and she could use Absorb Elements to cut that elemental damage further. She could have Contingency, too.

As you can see, it's a dangerous combo, but a TPK is unlikely to result here.

{Scrubbed} I am sure Ludic is now very much appreciative of the power of the combo.

As Ludic's evolving party demonstrates, the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo requires significant investment to defeat. Unless you tailor build a party to specifically survive the combo, the combo is quite beastly. Anyone who has encountered this combo in PvP or Battle Royale will know just how beastly it is. Just ask on r/3d6 on Reddit if you don't believe me.

All it takes is a single Fighter 2 / Wizard 18 (Metamagic Adept) DC 19 to decimate your party.

Simulacrum + Action Surge forces 56 saves. 40 of those are save versus 10d6 elemental damage (fail average 35, save average 18)

If you fail all your saves you are looking at (40 x 35) 1400 damage. If you succeed in all of your saves you are looking at 700 damage. For reference a Wizard without the Simulacrum will do 700 all fail, 350 all save.

The key factors to survive the combo are . . .

1) Active Flight or Active Spider Climb or Active Immovable Rod saves you completely.

2) Always On Evasion coupled with a Dex save of at least 11+

3) Invulnerability (Clone, Contingency Otiluke's, etc.)


This means that the typical . . .

Artificer > dead
Barbarian > dead
Bard > dead (see point 3)
Cleric > dead
Druid > dead
Fighter > dead
Monk > dead, survives if Dex save is 11+ (takes 140 damage at Dex save 11+)
Paladin > dead
Rogue > dead, survives if Dex save is 11 + (takes 140 damage at Dex save 11+)
Sorceror > dead (see point 3)
Warlock > dead
Wizard > dead (see point 3)


The neat thing about this combo is that you want to pair it with a back up plan. You also want to threaten Prismatic Wall + AMF + lots of AMF immune grappling beef (such as a Horn of Valhalla). More on that later.



Edit2:
My expected result would be:
- A majority of the party succeeds on the Dex saves against Reverse Gravity and takes no damage at all.


Not exactly. {Scrubbed} There needs to be fixed object that you can reach to get a Saving throw. Is the party now walking around with Immovable Rods active at all times in appreciation of the sheer power of the combo? That's an interesting data point if true.

[LudicSavant]

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote} :smallconfused: What "differences" are you referring to? There aren't any contradictions between those two posts.

Are you talking about the fact that the second post is more detailed than the first one?

Like, seriously, you demanded additional details about the characters, now you're complaining that I gave you additional details? What on earth?

The only person who has had an "evolving character" in this discussion is you; the combo you're suggesting now is quite different from what was originally proposed, and still doesn't explain how, as you've claimed, it TPKs the party.

[SteadyAim]

:smallconfused: What "differences" are you referring to? There aren't any contradictions between those two posts.

Are you talking about the fact that the second post is more detailed than the first one?

Like, seriously, you demanded additional details about the characters, now you're complaining that I gave you additional details? What on earth?

The only person who has had an "evolving character" in this discussion is you; the combo you're suggesting now is quite different from what was originally proposed, and still doesn't explain how, as you've claimed, it TPKs the party.

Thank you for your input, Ludic.

I have in my opinion successfully made my case that House Ruling that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage makes a Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo orders of magnitude more powerful than any alternative.

[AureusFulgens]

Hi. I've been summoned from a long GitP hibernation at 1:30 in the morning while mildly ill and already cranky for about three other reasons, so please allow me to just say:

I am the Warlock being described in Ludic's game. I have now read both posts being used to describe our party, and they are accurate in all respects, up to and including my own class and racial features and the monk's pugnacious temperament.

{Scrubbed}

I'm going back to sleep. See y'all again in six more months.

[SteadyAim]

Hi. I've been summoned from a long GitP hibernation at 1:30 in the morning while mildly ill and already cranky for about three other reasons, so please allow me to just say:

I am the Warlock being described in Ludic's game. I have now read both posts being used to describe our party, and they are accurate in all respects, up to and including my own class and racial features and the monk's pugnacious temperament.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

I'm going back to sleep. See y'all again in six more months.

Thank you very much for your input. I have made no accusations of bad faith against Ludic. In fact her contributions to this thread have been invaluable and have helped prove my case in my opinion. Ludic has expert knowledge of 5e and I respect Ludic's opinion.

[Darc_Vader]

Thank you for your input, Ludic.

I have in my opinion successfully made my case that House Ruling that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage makes a Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo orders of magnitude more powerful than any alternative.

So instead of doing the math you said you would do with the party, you’re just going to claim Ludic is adding extra things to his party specifically to counter this strategy? The party that has been stated multiple times to be an actual existing high level party people are playing with reasonable items for their level. Very compelling argument right there.

[SteadyAim]

So instead of doing the math you said you would do with the party, you’re just going to claim Ludic is adding extra things to his party specifically to counter this strategy? The party that has been stated multiple times to be an actual existing high level party people are playing with reasonable items for their level. Very compelling argument right there.

Thank you for your input.

Again, I respect Ludic's words and Ludic's expertise and have simply posted statements made by Ludic. I listed the very narrow conditions by which a character survives the combo. The capability of the combo to decimate a party has been proven with very simple math as shown by me. Since the overpowered combo is enabled by House Rule I think the House Rule should be disallowed. You are free to have your own opinion on the matter.

[MaxWilson]

Thank you for your input, Ludic.

I have in my opinion successfully made my case that House Ruling that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage makes a Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo orders of magnitude more powerful than any alternative.

I have yet to see an argument, let alone a solid case.

[SteadyAim]

I have yet to see an argument, let alone a solid case.

Thank you for your input.

Can you point to any spell or combo that is more powerful than the Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo that comes about when you House Rule that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage? Remember, the spell description of Prismatic Wall requires voluntary movement to trigger Prismatic Wall damage.

The combo when executed by a lone optimal Wizard, e.g. Fighter 2 / Wizard 18 (Metamagic Adept), absolutely decimates any party composed of however many characters that do not have flight/ spider climb or evasion or invulnerability as I have shown by simple mathematical proof above.

[Witty Username]

Read the thread. We are comparing Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo to other alternate methods to evaluate how powerful the combo really is.

The combo performs far better than all other alternatives even against a party stacked with Dex based characters as I have shown. And the combo will perform at an even greater damage output should we test it against a more representative sample party (one not so obviously leaning on Dex).

I mean, meteor swarm is a lot faster and 40d6 damage is sufficiently terrifying to most small cities. and doesn't require extra spells for it to deal damage.

[SteadyAim]

I mean, meteor swarm is a lot faster and 40d6 damage is sufficiently terrifying to most small cities. and doesn't require extra spells for it to deal damage.

Does it deal 1400 damage on fail and 700 damage on save to anything in a 30 foot diameter?

[Witty Username]

Does it deal 1400 damage on fail and 700 damage on save?

When players only have 224 hp (avg for a level 20 con 20 fighter), 280 damage is sufficient. 1 9th level spell 1 round setup no concentration< 1 9th level spell, 1 6th level spell, two concentrations and 2 round set up time.

Edit: I wiffed my math it is too early in the morning.
The point is you are spending a lot of action for a party to figure out a work around or just melt your BBEG with attacks. and alot of spell to make your other spells work.

that and meteor swarm is a 40 ft radius.

Not to mention the break points of the combo, 6th level counterspell, 6th level dispel magic, antimagic field, teleport, feather fall, being a monk, ranged attacks causing failed concentration saves not bunching up like morons etc.

Counter point, why use prismatic wall when you could use sickening radiance instead, its damage is infinite because of the exhaustion stacking?

[SteadyAim]

When players only have 224 hp (avg for a level 20 con 20 fighter), 280 damage is sufficient. 1 9th level spell 1 round setup no concentration< 1 9th level spell, 1 6th level spell, two concentrations and 2 round set up time.

Edit: I wiffed my math it is too early in the morning.
The point is you are spending a lot of action for a party to figure out a work around or just melt your BBEG with attacks. and alot of spell to make your other spells work.

that and meteor swarm is a 40 ft radius.

What if I want to kill something or any number of somethings that are really nasty and tough and really dangerous that did not have flight/ spider climb or evasion or invulnerability?



Not to mention the break points of the combo, 6th level counterspell, 6th level dispel magic, antimagic field, teleport, feather fall, being a monk, ranged attacks causing failed concentration saves not bunching up like morons etc.

Metamagic Adept shuts down Counterspell.

Dispel Magic, AMF, Teleport, ranged attacks, etc. don't work since the targeted party doesn't get a chance to perform actions.

Monks only barely survive with Evasion if they have +11 or more to their Dex save (+11 is Dex prof. and 20 dex).

A 30 foot diameter sphere is large enough to grab most of the party and completely change the outcome of the engagement with the proposed Alpha Strike.

Remember, this is one Wizard versus a whole party of the same level. How much CR does the BBEG have left over?

[Valmark]

Thank you very much for your response Ludic.

Very interesting Ludic. For reference this was your earlier statement about the party.

I will let the two statements stand side by side and speak for themselves. I think the differences prove my argument. I am sure Ludic is now very much appreciative of the power of the combo.

As Ludic's evolving party demonstrates, the Reverse Gravity Prismatic Wall combo requires significant investment to defeat. Unless you tailor build a party to specifically survive the combo, the combo is quite beastly. Anyone who has encountered this combo in PvP or Battle Royale will know just how beastly it is. Just ask on r/3d6 on Reddit if you don't believe me.

The neat thing about this combo is that you want to pair it with a back up plan. You also want to threaten Prismatic Wall + AMF + lots of AMF immune grappling beef (such as a Horn of Valhalla). More on that later.

LudicSavant showed a party that just happens to have relevant means, it's not tailored to fight a Prismatic Wall. It's... Amusing to see you try and twist words like that especially after completely changing your mind on Feather Fall only after it was shown to not allow you to do what you wanted to do.

What does AMF stand for? Because Anti Magic Fields don't work if that's what the acronym stands for.

Thank you for your input.

Again, I respect Ludic's words and Ludic's expertise and have simply posted statements made by Ludic. I listed the very narrow conditions by which a character survives the combo. The capability of the combo to decimate a party has been proven with very simple math as shown by me. Since the overpowered combo is enabled by House Rule I think the House Rule should be disallowed. You are free to have your own opinion on the matter.

You have also ruled in favor of Prismatic Wall+Reverse Gravity by making Feather Fall not work and by making Reverse Gravity able to change direction ahead of time. It's not an overpowered combo if it requires a specific build with specific conditions and specific rulings to do it's job.

[Witty Username]

What if I want to kill something or any number of somethings that are really nasty and tough and really dangerous that did not have flight/ spider climb or evasion or invulnerability?

forcecage + stinking cloud cloudkill?

[SteadyAim]

forcecage + stinking cloud cloudkill?

Sorry dispel magic and immune to poison are too common and the rules don't restrict the AOE of Cloudkill from simply moving 10 feet away from caster . {Scrubbed}


LudicSavant showed a party that just happens to have relevant means, it's not tailored to fight a Prismatic Wall. It's... Amusing to see you try and twist words like that especially after completely changing your mind on Feather Fall only after it was shown to not allow you to do what you wanted to do.

What does AMF stand for? Because Anti Magic Fields don't work if that's what the acronym stands for.


You have also ruled in favor of Prismatic Wall+Reverse Gravity by making Feather Fall not work and by making Reverse Gravity able to change direction ahead of time. It's not an overpowered combo if it requires a specific build with specific conditions and specific rulings to do it's job.

{Scrubbed} {Scrubbed, again}

[Mr Adventurer]

Sorry immune to poison is too common and the rules don't restrict the AOE of Cloudkill from simply moving 10 feet away from caster . {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

700 points of damage? Sorry, immune to poison is too common.

[JackPhoenix]

Sorry immune to poison is too common and the rules don't restrict the AOE of Cloudkill from simply moving 10 feet away from caster . {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

Why? It's not like Prismatic Wall would do "700 points of straight damage".

[J-H]

I'm the OP, and have been ignoring the Reverse Gravity/Prismatic Wall discussion entirely.

For my game, I can say that you can't bypass the wall by picking a party member up and throwing them "unwillingly" through the wall, or "shoving" them through on their turn. Someone going through the wall is going through the wall.

The optimal player application based on this is probably the use of Repelling Blast (4 rays/40' movement) to knock someone into it each round.

The high temple of the enemy will definitely have this in 30' diameter sphere form. I'm assuming that it doesn't just slice a giant hole in the ground when doing so, as otherwise the sphere shape of it is pretty useless outside of flight.
Since the enemies fly, I do see a higher-level wizard or priest using this in flight and then concentrating on a ritual or summoning stuff from inside, such that the party has to go through it to reach him.

Thanks everyone for the input, and please stop arguing so unkindly.

[Yucca]

Can you point to any spell or combo that is more powerful than the Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo that comes about when you House Rule that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall damage? Remember, the spell description of Prismatic Wall requires voluntary movement to trigger Prismatic Wall damage.

{Scrubbed}

PW triggering with involuntary movement is not a house rule. The spell description is not specific about willing vs unwilling and there has been no errata on it. There is a difference between a DM making a ruling and a house rule. In an instance of unclear RAW the DM should think about RAI, and it's hard to argue that the RAI for a 9th level spell is that it can be defeated by giving someone a push.

What you're doing is essentially making the Tippyverse argument. "Such a thing is so powerful by RAW that any setting that does not include it being used ad nauseum is logically flawed." It's a fun thought experiment to consider kingdoms run by 20th level wizards where autoresetting 'traps' cast create food and water and heal every 6 seconds. If that's your bag, go for it.

There are lots of combos that are no save just die attacks. My favorite is to have an invisible familiar hold the water beads that you get from using a dust of dryness. Cast Wall of Force to surround the target in a sphere (no save) and then have your familiar break the beads. If they don't have a way to breath water, they're pretty much done. Most of the spells you need to break out have verbal components so unless you're a sorc with subtle MM, you won't be able to cast them.

You've come up with a pretty powerful combo. Shaping the wall so it's a sphere in order to force 4 passes through it rather than 1 is clever. You haven't "won" the argument just because you've declared yourself the winner, and you haven't mathematically proven anything.

If you feel the need to rule that a 9th level spell can be defeated by one commoner giving another commoner a shove then you should do that. Everyone should get to play the D&D that they want to play.


I'm the OP, and have been ignoring the Reverse Gravity/Prismatic Wall discussion entirely.
You're a wiser nerd than the rest of us :)

[MaxWilson]

700 points of damage? Sorry, immune to poison is too common.

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound + Wall of Force is 400d8 (1800) * hit rate piercing damage. Hit rate is generally +9ish with advantage for Invisibility. Comes online at level 9 instead of level 17.

[Mr Adventurer]

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound + Wall of Force is 400d8 (1800) * hit rate piercing damage. Hit rate is generally +9ish with advantage for Invisibility. Comes online at level 9 instead of level 17.

I think you meant to reply to the post my post was replying to?

[Tanarii]

The high temple of the enemy will definitely have this in 30' diameter sphere form. I'm assuming that it doesn't just slice a giant hole in the ground when doing so, as otherwise the sphere shape of it is pretty useless outside of flight.
Since the enemies fly, I do see a higher-level wizard or priest using this in flight and then concentrating on a ritual or summoning stuff from inside, such that the party has to go through it to reach him.
Interesting. I'm not sure the sphere can overlap ground or walls, but as you say, it'd definitely make it far more reasonable to use the sphere form outside of flying enemies or flight. But the only explicit restriction within the spell is that it not overlap a space occupied by a creature. If it can't overlap an object.

[MaxWilson]

I think you meant to reply to the post my post was replying to?

I meant to reply to both by proposing something that doesn't rely on poison damage. I should have quoted both I guess.

And if you really want to autokill someone using 9th level spells, it's hard to top Demiplane + Glyph of Warding/Symbol + Gate. Unlike the Wall of Force combo which is a tactical kill, killing something that's in front of you, this is a strategic kill that lets you address a threat proactively. Unlike e.g. Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity there are no concerns with flying enemies or stealthy enemies or initiative rolls, etc. I would not hesitate as a DM to do a Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity from an intelligent bad guy if he happened to have Action Surge and didn't have a better use for his 9th level spell slot(s), but I would actively avoid doing the Gate + preset traps combo because it's too unfair to be fun. I'd worry that it was too much like DM fiat, "rocks falls everybody dies."

OP sorry for not having more to say about bypassing the sphere. I honestly don't have anything more to say besides "wait it out or go around."

[PhoenixPhyre]

And if you really want to autokill someone using 9th level spells, it's hard to top Demiplane + Glyph of Warding/Symbol + Gate. Unlike the Wall of Force combo which is a tactical kill, killing something that's in front of you, this is a strategic kill that lets you address a threat proactively.

Wait...how does this work?

1. You create a Demiplane. It's not particularly hostile itself, merely trapping things that can't plane shift (etc) out.
2. You put in a bunch of symbol/glyphs to do nasty things to people who trigger them.
3. You cast Gate to get someone there.

Step 3 requires that you be in the demiplane already (it draws them right next to you, and you have to be on another plane from them). Which means that most of the nasty forms of Symbol/Glyph will hit you too--Symbol has a 60-foot radius and explicitly does not exclude friendlies, many of the spells you could stuff into Glyph are aoes. Plus, if it fails, you've got a nasty guy right next to you. And lots of meaningful creatures have decent saves, so you're unlikely to kill them outright unless you go seriously overboard, with all the risks there. And you have to know their real name (one reason that adventurers in my world go by pseudonyms, other than the coolness factor). Plus you're spending buckets of gold[1] and a bunch of high level spells and/or time to pull this off.

You can't put Gate into a Glyph (not only would that require 2 9th level slots, but since the trigger is definitionally on the same plane as the glyph, Gate fails). Using Demiplane to just open a doorway doesn't get you anything, since it can't force anyone through.

What did you mean by this?

[1] 1k GP per Symbol, 200gp per Glyph, 5k gp diamond for the Gate

[J-H]

Another point on this - the best use of the sphere option may be trapping the party without any foes inside. Trapping them gives 10 whole minutes for the enemy to knock out their allies, muster reinforcements, cast buff spells, and line up summons and other crowd control.

[MaxWilson]

Wait...how does this work?

1. You create a Demiplane. It's not particularly hostile itself, merely trapping things that can't plane shift (etc) out.
2. You put in a bunch of symbol/glyphs to do nasty things to people who trigger them.
3. You cast Gate to get someone there.

Step 3 requires that you be in the demiplane already (it draws them right next to you, and you have to be on another plane from them). Which means that most of the nasty forms of Symbol/Glyph will hit you too--Symbol has a 60-foot radius and explicitly does not exclude friendlies, many of the spells you could stuff into Glyph are aoes. Plus, if it fails, you've got a nasty guy right next to you. And lots of meaningful creatures have decent saves, so you're unlikely to kill them outright unless you go seriously overboard, with all the risks there. And you have to know their real name (one reason that adventurers in my world go by pseudonyms, other than the coolness factor). Plus you're spending buckets of gold[1] and a bunch of high level spells and/or time to pull this off.

You can't put Gate into a Glyph (not only would that require 2 9th level slots, but since the trigger is definitionally on the same plane as the glyph, Gate fails). Using Demiplane to just open a doorway doesn't get you anything, since it can't force anyone through.

What did you mean by this?

[1] 1k GP per Symbol, 200gp per Glyph, 5k gp diamond for the Gate

It doesn't draw them right next to you, only through the portal, which can be up to 60' away.

If you're the one casting Gate you have the initiative. (Not in the 5E sense, in the broader sense.) For example, you can pick spells that aren't AoE (Dispel Magic). You can set the conditions so they don't trigger until after you leave (using your movement after casting Gate, or your own Contingency/Dimension Door, or whatever), or set the AoE so it excludes where you'll be standing. The details don't matter.

If you want a concrete example, then okay, let's say there's a high level PC wizard that Halaster wants dead. I make a Glyph of Sickening Radiance, a Glyph of Dispel Magic IX, five Glyphs of Disintegrate, ten Glyphs of Fireball, and ten Glyphs of Lightning Bolt, and a Glyph of Power Word Kill all in the NE corner of the Demiplane and set to go off when the target gets gated in. I'll be 35' away in the other corner. I could try to be clever with my triggers so that I don't use more Glyphs than necessary, so I can reuse them, but since I can Wish my Glyphs into existence (except the PWK and Dispel Magic IX) and I'm crazy wealthy anyway AND I'm an NPC and the DM doesn't even care that much about minimizing my expenses, why bother?

Technically I don't even have to be in the Demiplane at all, as long as the target's plane is different from both the destination plane (my demiplane) and my plane when casting Gate (e.g. another demiplane).

These details don't matter because my whole point is as a matter of respect for player time/engagement/fun, as a DM I will actively AVOID creating this situation in the first place, not seek it out. Like, you'd have to go out of your way to make enemies with brains and high magic and patience and to make any other resolution impossible, and even then I'd at least find an excuse to warn you that it was coming even if I had pull out a trope like Prophetic Dream.

[SteadyAim]

Mordenkainen's Faithful Hound + Wall of Force is 400d8 (1800) * hit rate piercing damage. Hit rate is generally +9ish with advantage for Invisibility. Comes online at level 9 instead of level 17.

This combo does not really compare. All the party needs is Dispel Magic.


It doesn't draw them right next to you, only through the portal, which can be up to 60' away.

If you're the one casting Gate you have the initiative. (Not in the 5E sense, in the broader sense.) For example, you can pick spells that aren't AoE (Dispel Magic). You can set the conditions so they don't trigger until after you leave (using your movement after casting Gate, or your own Contingency/Dimension Door, or whatever), or set the AoE so it excludes where you'll be standing. The details don't matter.

If you want a concrete example, then okay, let's say there's a high level PC wizard that Halaster wants dead. I make a Glyph of Sickening Radiance, a Glyph of Dispel Magic IX, five Glyphs of Disintegrate, ten Glyphs of Fireball, and ten Glyphs of Lightning Bolt, and a Glyph of Power Word Kill all in the NE corner of the Demiplane and set to go off when the target gets gated in. I'll be 35' away in the other corner. I could try to be clever with my triggers so that I don't use more Glyphs than necessary, so I can reuse them, but since I can Wish my Glyphs into existence (except the PWK and Dispel Magic IX) and I'm crazy wealthy anyway AND I'm an NPC and the DM doesn't even care that much about minimizing my expenses, why bother?

Technically I don't even have to be in the Demiplane at all, as long as the target's plane is different from both the destination plane (my demiplane) and my plane when casting Gate (e.g. another demiplane).

These details don't matter because my whole point is as a matter of respect for player time/engagement/fun, as a DM I will actively AVOID creating this situation in the first place, not seek it out. Like, you'd have to go out of your way to make enemies with brains and high magic and patience and to make any other resolution impossible, and even then I'd at least find an excuse to warn you that it was coming even if I had pull out a trope like Prophetic Dream.

Thank you for sharing this combo. This combo is very expensive but it's power level is indeed comparable to the Cruise Missile (Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall combo). The Cruise Missile is further enhanced by Scry + Teleport to secure a surprise round. Prismatic Wall is also devastatingly brutal when combined with AMF and grappling.

[JNAProductions]

This combo does not really compare. All the party needs is Dispel Magic.

Thank you for sharing this combo. This combo is very expensive but it's power level is indeed comparable to the Cruise Missile (Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall combo). The Cruise Missile is further enhanced by Scry + Teleport to secure a surprise round. Prismatic Wall is also devastatingly brutal when combined with AMF and grappling.

And Prismatic Wall plus Reverse Gravity is completely vulnerable to counterspell, or your foe having flight, or having two encounters in a day, or not winning initiative, or...

Yes, Hound plus Wall Of Force is not 100% foolproof. I can't think of anything that IS.

[SteadyAim]

And Prismatic Wall plus Reverse Gravity is completely vulnerable to counterspell, or your foe having flight, or having two encounters in a day, or not winning initiative, or...

Yes, Hound plus Wall Of Force is not 100% foolproof. I can't think of anything that IS.

Scry + Teleport secures surprise.

Metamagic Adept shuts down Counterspell.

Obviously the Cruise Missile combo is reserved for appropriate targets. The Day the Magic Died combo (AMF plus Prismatic Wall combo) is reserved for other targets.

[JNAProductions]

Scry + Teleport secures surprise.

Metamagic Adept shuts down Counterspell.

Obviously the Cruise Missile combo is reserved for appropriate targets. The Day the Magic Died combo (AMF plus Prismatic Wall combo) is reserved for other targets.

And Teleport has a failure rate. You still need to win initiative, if your opponent has Alert or something to that effect. If you're going after multiple targets, they have to be nearby. You need enough space. Etc. etc.

[SteadyAim]

And Teleport has a failure rate. You still need to win initiative, if your opponent has Alert or something to that effect. If you're going after multiple targets, they have to be nearby. You need enough space. Etc. etc.

You list completely acceptable risks and the brevity and relative insgnificance of the list underscores in my opinion how effective the combo is. You have subtle Teleport back to lair if any snafus happen.

I have not specified a Wizard subclass yet for the BBEG. Which subclass do you think works best for these combos?

[JNAProductions]

You list completely acceptable risks and the brevity and relative insgnificance of the list underscores in my opinion how effective the combo is. You have subtle Teleport back to lair if any snafus happen.

I have not specified a Wizard subclass yet for the BBEG. Which subclass do you think works best for these combos?

NPCs aren't built the same as PCs. If you're angling to do this for a PC build, then by all means, present one.

[PhoenixPhyre]

I'll point out one thing that bothers me about this discussion (and most "NPCs are stupid if they don't <insert optimization trick here>" discussions)--implicitly assumed here is that NPCs have some form of access to the full spell lists and consciously make their choices knowing the full spectrum of options. Yes, that's how PCs operate, and it's a limit imposed by the game-layer. But that doesn't hold at all for NPCs. NPCs don't get to break the meta-wall and observe the game as a game.

So wizards take what spells are available to them, either from their masters, from the research they've done, or treasures they've encountered. There's no guarantee that they know that all those spells exist. And furthermore, there's no allowance made for theme. Why would Pyros the Magnificent, whose catch phrase is "Everything burns if you heat it enough" spend the energy researching those fiddly spells that are way outside his normal aptitude set and training? Why would a cleric of the death god be praying for all those healing spells? Etc.

And NPCs can't just choose to take a level in X. First, levels aren't necessarily an in-universe thing, nor are classes. Second, levels (or their equivalents for NPCs) reflect the history and training they have, they're not future-oriented. A commoner doesn't wake up and say "hey, I've gained XP. I think I want to take a level in wizard!" and poof, there's his wizard robe and hat and spellbook. Nor can a wizard simply say "hey, i think a level or two of fighter would go really great here so I can get that sweet sweet Action Surge". Those concepts just don't exist in-universe. There has to be an in-fiction, pre-existing reason why that NPC has spent time training that way. And those reasons don't usually fit with many BBEGs. Or even regular people.

Specialization is a thing, especially among researchers. If you ask a PhD physicist about something outside of his specialty (mine was computational collision theory at a particular range of energies and molecular configurations), he's basically no better than someone with a BS in Physics. So if you ask a wizard who has been researching the conjury of fire elementals about how to cast a prismatic wall, he's going to look at you and go "the books are over there, figure it out." And it's going to take him a darn long time to do so himself.

[SteadyAim]

NPCs aren't built the same as PCs. If you're angling to do this for a PC build, then by all means, present one.

The DM Guide page 92 indicates that you can build an NPC just as you would a player character using the PHB and a character sheet.

[JNAProductions]

The DM Guide page 92 indicates that you can build an NPC just as you would a player character using the PHB and a character sheet.

Can =/= should. PCs tend to be much more of a glass cannon than monsters do-meaning a PC vs. "PC" fight is going to fall much more down to initiative than most fights. Plus, PCs are complex-as a DM, I want minimal mental overhead for my monsters. I do NOT need to be pouring over 15 different spells to see which is best when I have half a dozen monsters in a fight.

Moreover, there is no "PC Level X=CR Y" formula-certainly not officially, and I don't believe anyone has made an accurate unofficial one.

But, if you want to make a PC build, by all means do so. It'd be interesting.

Also, what Phoenix said. That's a good post there!

[SteadyAim]

Can =/= should. PCs tend to be much more of a glass cannon than monsters do-meaning a PC vs. "PC" fight is going to fall much more down to initiative than most fights. Plus, PCs are complex-as a DM, I want minimal mental overhead for my monsters. I do NOT need to be pouring over 15 different spells to see which is best when I have half a dozen monsters in a fight.

Moreover, there is no "PC Level X=CR Y" formula-certainly not officially, and I don't believe anyone has made an accurate unofficial one.

But, if you want to make a PC build, by all means do so. It'd be interesting.

Also, what Phoenix said. That's a good post there!

Ok. So now it is recognized I can make a BBEG with the PHB.

Which Wizard subclasses do you think work best with the Cruise Missile combo?

In response to Phoenix's post I want to ask . . . If Intelligence 20 does not make an NPC a genius then what more is required?

Also CR is relatively straightforward for PHB NPCs. 20th level character = 20th level NPC character. So a fair matchup against five 19th level characters would be five 19th level NPCs built as characters from the PHB.

[PhoenixPhyre]

In response to Phoenix's post I want to ask . . . If Intelligence 20 does not make an NPC a genius then what more is required?


Being a genius doesn't actually mean much. I've worked with lots of geniuses. Specialization still hits them just as hard, as does limited information. And even more, even being a genius can't get you access to information that you simply cannot have because it doesn't exist as such in your world. You assume that the NPCs have full access to the text of the PHB and full ability to customize their classes, etc. While you could make a setting that follows those rules (cf our host comic), that is not the default assumption. NPCs have no meta information. There are no "spell lists" for them to choose from with handy-dandy information about the exact effects of those spells. They have what they personally know about through their own research.

And your assumption about CR and level is just not so. A 20th level PC-classed wizard character (let alone anything else) is anywhere from CR 12 (or less) to CR 30 (depending on build, load-out, equipment, etc). There is no correlation between PC class level and CR, other than, well, "it's messy". This is not 3e. Those rules no longer apply.

[SteadyAim]

Being a genius doesn't actually mean much. I've worked with lots of geniuses. Specialization still hits them just as hard, as does limited information. And even more, even being a genius can't get you access to information that you simply cannot have because it doesn't exist as such in your world. You assume that the NPCs have full access to the text of the PHB and full ability to customize their classes, etc. While you could make a setting that follows those rules (cf our host comic), that is not the default assumption. NPCs have no meta information. There are no "spell lists" for them to choose from with handy-dandy information about the exact effects of those spells. They have what they personally know about through their own research.

Can you answer . . .

What more is required than a 20 Intelligence such that an NPC can be played as tactically smart?

[Valmark]

This combo does not really compare. All the party needs is Dispel Magic.



Thank you for sharing this combo. This combo is very expensive but it's power level is indeed comparable to the Cruise Missile (Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall combo). The Cruise Missile is further enhanced by Scry + Teleport to secure a surprise round. Prismatic Wall is also devastatingly brutal when combined with AMF and grappling.


Scry + Teleport secures surprise.

Metamagic Adept shuts down Counterspell.

Obviously the Cruise Missile combo is reserved for appropriate targets. The Day the Magic Died combo (AMF plus Prismatic Wall combo) is reserved for other targets.
I keep on not understanding what an Antimagic Field has to do with Prismatic Wall. That's what AMF stands for yes?

[Asisreo1]

I keep on not understanding what an Antimagic Field has to do with Prismatic Wall. That's what AMF stands for yes?
Prismatic Wall explicitly says its unaffected by AntiMagic Field.

[Valmark]

Prismatic Wall explicitly says its unaffected by AntiMagic Field.

Exactly why I don't get how they combo with a grappler.

[Mellack]

Can you answer . . .

What more is required than a 20 Intelligence such that an NPC can be played as tactically smart?

Why would a 20 Int presume tactically skilled? A person might be a genius, but if they haven't studied warfare, they are going to lose to an officer who has. As Pheonix said, people tend to specialize in their knowledge fields.

[MaxWilson]

Thank you for sharing this combo. This combo is very expensive but it's power level is indeed comparable to the Cruise Missile (Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall combo). The Cruise Missile is further enhanced by Scry + Teleport to secure a surprise round. Prismatic Wall is also devastatingly brutal when combined with AMF and grappling.

I certainly hope that winning initiative and Action Surging a 7th level spell and a 9th level spell in one round is devastating to an enemy who has been caught unaware in Fireball Formation (actually even closer--all within 30' of each other, whereas Fireball has a 40' diameter). It should be.

Another devastating 9th level tactical combo on par with the Prismatic Wall thing is to True Polymorph into an Atropal and then conjure up a few dozen (or a few hundred) Wraiths, and then have them all swarm your target at once.

You can also cast Invulnerability and then have someone True Polymorph you into an Adult Silver Shadow Dragon.

Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity is not out of line for 9th level combos.


Ok. So now it is recognized I can make a BBEG with the PHB.

Which Wizard subclasses do you think work best with the Cruise Missile combo?

Chronurgist or Diviner so you can win initiative and/or force at least one saving throw failure.

I'm not a fan of the name "Cruise Missile" for Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall because it acts nothing like a cruise missile: it's not usable at great distances, and it's devastating to only a small AoE, and many targets are immune. "Cruise Missile" would work better as a name for something like e.g. Polymorphing a Nightwalker into a bluejay then casting Animal Messenger on that bluejay to make it go to a target, and having someone else (or your Simulacrum) scrying on the bluejay so you know when to release concentration on Polymorph and turn it back into a Nightwalker.

[SteadyAim]

Why would a 20 Int presume tactically skilled? A person might be a genius, but if they haven't studied warfare, they are going to lose to an officer who has. As Pheonix said, people tend to specialize in their knowledge fields.

So proficiency in History?


I certainly hope that winning initiative and Action Surging a 7th level spell and a 9th level spell in one round is devastating to an enemy who has been caught unaware in Fireball Formation (actually even closer--all within 30' of each other, whereas Fireball has a 40' diameter). It should be.

Another devastating 9th level tactical combo on par with the Prismatic Wall thing is to True Polymorph into an Atropal and then conjure up a few dozen (or a few hundred) Wraiths, and then have them all swarm your target at once.

You can also cast Invulnerability and then have someone True Polymorph you into an Adult Silver Shadow Dragon.

Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity is not out of line for 9th level combos.



Chronurgist or Diviner so you can win initiative and/or force at least one saving throw failure.

I'm not a fan of the name "Cruise Missile" for Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall because it acts nothing like a cruise missile: it's not usable at great distances, and it's devastating to only a small AoE, and many targets are immune. "Cruise Missile" would work better as a name for something like e.g. Polymorphing a Nightwalker into a bluejay then casting Animal Messenger on that bluejay to make it go to a target, and having someone else (or your Simulacrum) scrying on the bluejay so you know when to release concentration on Polymorph and turn it back into a Nightwalker.

The CR of an Atropal is 30 so I am not sure if that can be considered for comparison.

Also I am not a fan of True Polymorph since you shut off your Wizard spells and cannot defend against something as simple as Dispel Magic. I am a much bigger fan of using Shapechange. With a little bit of prep time you can buff yourself up considerably and still have your Wizard spells.

I agree with Chronurgist or Diviner. But UA test material should not be allowed unless the players are also using UA so a Diviner is probably an optimal choice especially if the overall strategy is hit and run.

Cruise Missile is not a name I came up with. The name is associated with using Scry & Teleport and then devastating Kaboom.

[JNAProductions]

So proficiency in History?

No? How many historians do you know that are master tacticians?

Tactics is not a skill check in D&D 5E. It is, presumably, something that a high-level Wizard would have a good grasp of, assuming they leveled up like an adventurer, but as Phoenix pointed out, there can easily be blind spots or areas they lack in.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Can you answer . . .

What more is required than a 20 Intelligence such that an NPC can be played as tactically smart?

That's not the issue at hand. No amount of tactical smarts gives you meta knowledge. As an NPC, you don't get to pick your spells out of some spell list in the user interface--those spell lists just flat out don't exist in setting. No more than you can choose ahead of time to just "take a PhD" or "build a steam engine" if you're a 4th-century farm laborer. You only know the options you know from your surroundings and your context.

There's no guarantee that all the archmages out there know of the same spells. Each one may know a subset of the list, and some may know spells that (gasp) aren't even on the PHB list. There's no guarantee that NPCs even interact with the PC spell lists in the same way PCs do. They're certainly not bound by them--there are published NPCs with spells from lists they "shouldn't" have access to.

We accept this meta knowledge for PCs, because there's really no fun way around it. We can't accept it for NPCs without breaking the fiction layer into little tiny pieces. And to me, that's way more important than "game-breaking combos". The NPCs exist in a context and are restricted by that context. The game rules are not the fictional laws of physics, and they're not available to the NPCs. "Levels" don't exist in game. Neither do (by default) classes. They're entirely meta, entirely game constructs.

And if you, as a DM, decide to optimize your NPCs as if they had this knowledge, you're metagaming in the bad sense of the word. At least in my opinion. Just as much as someone who decides what they do based on the knowledge of the dice roll (deciding to ask someone else to try because they know they rolled poorly or otherwise using the knowledge that it's a game to influence their character decisions). To me, that's one of the prime sins a DM can commit, especially where (as in this case) it's obviously being done to "win" against the PCs. Leaves all sorts of bad tastes in my mouth.

[SteadyAim]

No? How many historians do you know that are master tacticians?

Tactics is not a skill check in D&D 5E. It is, presumably, something that a high-level Wizard would have a good grasp of, assuming they leveled up like an adventurer, but as Phoenix pointed out, there can easily be blind spots or areas they lack in.

So what is required then for the Wizard NPC to be tactically smart?


That's not the issue at hand. No amount of tactical smarts gives you meta knowledge. As an NPC, you don't get to pick your spells out of some spell list in the user interface--those spell lists just flat out don't exist in setting. No more than you can choose ahead of time to just "take a PhD" or "build a steam engine" if you're a 4th-century farm laborer. You only know the options you know from your surroundings and your context.

There's no guarantee that all the archmages out there know of the same spells. Each one may know a subset of the list, and some may know spells that (gasp) aren't even on the PHB list. There's no guarantee that NPCs even interact with the PC spell lists in the same way PCs do. They're certainly not bound by them--there are published NPCs with spells from lists they "shouldn't" have access to.

We accept this meta knowledge for PCs, because there's really no fun way around it. We can't accept it for NPCs without breaking the fiction layer into little tiny pieces. And to me, that's way more important than "game-breaking combos". The NPCs exist in a context and are restricted by that context. The game rules are not the fictional laws of physics, and they're not available to the NPCs. "Levels" don't exist in game. Neither do (by default) classes. They're entirely meta, entirely game constructs.

And if you, as a DM, decide to optimize your NPCs as if they had this knowledge, you're metagaming in the bad sense of the word. At least in my opinion. Just as much as someone who decides what they do based on the knowledge of the dice roll (deciding to ask someone else to try because they know they rolled poorly or otherwise using the knowledge that it's a game to influence their character decisions). To me, that's one of the prime sins a DM can commit, especially where (as in this case) it's obviously being done to "win" against the PCs. Leaves all sorts of bad tastes in my mouth.

I don't think we are talking about meta knowledge here. I think we are talking about a Wizard who can tactically use their spells to achieve goals they set to achieve (e.g. decimating a party).

What is required for a 20th level NPC Wizard to be played as tactically smart?

Is your answer 'nothing can make a Wizard NPC tactically smart'?

[JNAProductions]

So what is required then for the Wizard NPC to be tactically smart?

Their place in the game. Have they been presented as a cunning mastermind, with wit sharper than a sword and cunning to match? Then they should be smart.
Have they been presented as a more Xykon-style foe, who has plenty of brute force, but little cunning to back it up and just kinda smashes their way through? Then they should do that-and probably not try actually thinking until it's clear they've bitten off more than they can chew.

There is no "Tactics" skill in 5E.

Moreover, the most important thing, bar none is that the game is fun. Does dropping a specifically prepared Fighter 2/Wizard 17-18 who uses Scry 'n' Die tactics into the game make it more fun? If yes, then by all means include that NPC. If no... Then don't.

[MaxWilson]

Their place in the game. Have they been presented as a cunning mastermind, with wit sharper than a sword and cunning to match? Then they should be smart.
Have they been presented as a more Xykon-style foe, who has plenty of brute force, but little cunning to back it up and just kinda smashes their way through? Then they should do that-and probably not try actually thinking until it's clear they've bitten off more than they can chew.

There is no "Tactics" skill in 5E.

Moreover, the most important thing, bar none is that the game is fun. Does dropping a specifically prepared Fighter 2/Wizard 17-18 who uses Scry 'n' Die tactics into the game make it more fun? If yes, then by all means include that NPC. If no... Then don't.

Agreeing and expanding on the last point:

A DM's job is to create interesting situations for the players to experience. If the gameworld has 1000 years of peace and golden age prosperity, followed by 30 years of civil war and then the whole planet being blown up by a fantasy Death Star, it would be wrong to start a game in the 1000 years of peace (players will be bored) or right before the planet is destroyed (players will feel helpless and then frustrated and sad). Is it a little bit contrived to set the game in a period when their fighting skills can actually make a difference to the outcome? Yeah, sure. But even the most sandboxy game should do it anyway. Sandboxing is about allowing the world to act naturally on its own once play starts, but you still get to create initial conditions that seem likely to lead to fun play.

If you don't think hostile Fighter 2/Wizard 18s with a penchant for scry-and-die are likely to lead to fun experiences for the players, you don't have to create any. Maybe you stick to demon lords instead of archwizards as foes; maybe you give the archwizards psychological weaknesses (such as cowardice, which makes them prefer to Meteor Swarm-plus-Teleport-away instead of Prismatic-Wall-and-Reverse-Gravity because it's less risky); maybe you make the archwizards friendly instead of hostile and arrange for them to die (or get possessed) partway through the campaign; maybe you make them Bond Villains a la Xykon who like to monologue.

Have some idea how you're going to use a game element to make it enjoyable for the players before you introduce that element into the game.

[SteadyAim]

Agreeing and expanding on the last point:

A DM's job is to create interesting situations for the players to experience. If the gameworld has 1000 years of peace and golden age prosperity, followed by 30 years of civil war and then the whole planet being blown up by a fantasy Death Star, it would be wrong to start a game in the 1000 years of peace (players will be bored) or right before the planet is destroyed (players will feel helpless and then frustrated and sad). Is it a little bit contrived to set the game in a period when their fighting skills can actually make a difference to the outcome? Yeah, sure. But even the most sandboxy game should do it anyway. Sandboxing is about allowing the world to act naturally on its own once play starts, but you still get to create initial conditions that seem likely to lead to fun play.

If you don't think hostile Fighter 2/Wizard 18s with a penchant for scry-and-die are likely to lead to fun experiences for the players, you don't have to create any. Maybe you stick to demon lords instead of archwizards as foes; maybe you give the archwizards psychological weaknesses (such as cowardice, which makes them prefer to Meteor Swarm-plus-Teleport-away instead of Prismatic-Wall-and-Reverse-Gravity because it's less risky); maybe you make the archwizards friendly instead of hostile and arrange for them to die (or get possessed) partway through the campaign; maybe you make them Bond Villains a la Xykon who like to monologue.

Have some idea how you're going to use a game element to make it enjoyable for the players before you introduce that element into the game.

Sure. Keep it fun.

I have found fun often means setting it up so the players win by the skin of their teeth and smart play.

If the players have to cast a few Revivifies and Raise Deads to eventually eke out and earn a victory against a smart BBEG they are going to like that much more than overcoming a BBEG who lobs easy pitches. Unless the BBEG starts turning players into zombies, parties can generally recover. Clerics should matter.

[MaxWilson]

Sure. Keep it fun.

I have found fun often means setting it up so the players win by the skin of their teeth and smart play.

If the players have to cast a few Revivifies and Raise Deads to eventually eke out and earn a victory against a smart BBEG they are going to like that much more than overcoming a BBEG who lobs easy pitches. Unless the BBEG starts turning players into zombies, parties can generally recover. Clerics should matter.

Sure, then go ahead.

As has been amply demonstrated by this thread, smart play already makes the Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity combo fairly unlikely to work, even without any specific countermeasures. (But I wouldn't use the Atropal combo or the Gate + Glyph overkill combo, in part because smart play doesn't really help against them so it isn't fun.)

[SteadyAim]

Sure, then go ahead.

As has been amply demonstrated by this thread, smart play already makes the Prismatic Wall + Reverse Gravity combo fairly unlikely to work, even without any specific countermeasures.

That is not what the math says. Unless you have always on flying/spider climb, always on evasion, or invulnerability then the combo kills you. Specific countermeasures are required to survive. We can revisit the math if you like.

And there is always the ever popular Prismatic Wall plus Anti Magic Field plus grappling mooks.

[Valmark]

That is not what the math says. Unless you have always on flying/spider climb, always on evasion, or invulnerability then the combo kills you. Specific countermeasures are required to survive. We can revisit the math if you like.

And there is always the ever popular Prismatic Wall plus Anti Magic Field plus grappling mooks.

Alright now it's really bothering me.
What does the AMF do in the combo? It doesn't work at all on a Prismatic Wall. It has literally no purpose beyond wasting a spell slot. Is it to suppress any theorical magical enhancement? A typical wizard or cleric will have an hard time grappling without them and AMF has a range of Self so you cannot buff others.
What am I missing?

Also reminder that you need specific rulings and specific builds to make Reverse Gravity+Prismatic Sphere work like you said. Otherwise the countermeasures increase greatly.

[MaxWilson]

That is not what the math says. Unless you have always on flying/spider climb, always on evasion, or invulnerability then the combo kills you. Specific countermeasures are required to survive. We can revisit the math if you like.

We've been over this numerous times. The combo only TPKs a party if the bad guy detects the PCs incoming, wins initiative, sees all the good guys (i.e. no stealth or bad stealth), has Action Surge, party fails to Counterspell Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity (note: Subtle may not prevent Counterspelling of Prismatic Wall and definitely doesn't prevent Counterspelling of Reverse Gravity because Subtle Reverse Gravity still has an M component), party fails all of their Dex checks against Reverse Gravity or is in a place where Dex checks can't apply, the party is in Fireball formation (15' radius if you're trying to get the double-fallthrough of Prismatic Sphere), no one in the party is flying or riding a flying mount, and the damage from Prismatic Wall is enough to kill them despite whatever saving throw bonuses and Contingencies they have.

It's not so much that specific countermeasures are required to survive--on the contrary, specific scenarios are required for this to be a TPK. Otherwise it you just burned a 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, and an Action Surge to accomplish something that will be countered in one action by Revivify. It's not a particularly attractive combo to an intelligent BBEG because it isn't an I Win button, just an I May Hurt Some of You button.

[SteadyAim]

We've been over this numerous times. The combo only TPKs a party if the bad guy detects the PCs incoming, wins initiative, sees all the good guys (i.e. no stealth or bad stealth), has Action Surge, party fails to Counterspell Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity (note: Subtle may not prevent Counterspelling of Prismatic Wall and definitely doesn't prevent Counterspelling of Reverse Gravity because Subtle Reverse Gravity still has an M component), party fails all of their Dex checks against Reverse Gravity or is in a place where Dex checks can't apply, the party is in Fireball formation (15' radius if you're trying to get the double-fallthrough of Prismatic Sphere), no one in the party is flying or riding a flying mount, and the damage from Prismatic Wall is enough to kill them despite whatever saving throw bonuses and Contingencies they have.

It's not so much that specific countermeasures are required to survive--on the contrary, specific scenarios are required for this to be a TPK. Otherwise it you just burned a 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, and an Action Surge to accomplish something that will be countered in one action by Revivify. It's not a particularly attractive combo to an intelligent BBEG because it isn't an I Win button, just an I May Hurt Some of You button.

We have been over this numerous times.

I have brought up repeatedly that the scenario in which you survive the TPK is a scenario in which the party has 5 to 1 odds against the BBEG. Should the odds be brought to even (by the BBEG adding four 19th level NPCs or the equivalent to his side) then a TPK is guaranteed. The Wizard who implements the Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo pulls off one heckuva crippling alpha strike or are you going to continue to ignore the odds and what is really transpiring here? Are you really that dead set on communicating to the audience that the combo is not OP when it clearly is?

[Valmark]

We have been over this numerous times.

I have brought up repeatedly that the scenario in which you survive the TPK is a scenario in which the party has 5 to 1 odds against the BBEG. Should the odds be brought to even (by the BBEG adding four 19th level NPCs or the equivalent to his side) then a TPK is guaranteed. The Wizard who implements the Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo pulls off one heckuva alpha strike or are you going to continue to ignore the odds and what is really transpiring here? Are you really that dead set on communicating to the audience that the combo is not OP when it clearly is?

In that scenario the character with the least chances of surviving ignoring every buff they should have was likely to survive unless one adds your own rulings.

It's a good combo- but it isn't OP unless you specifically make it so.

Should also be pointed out that 5 19th level enemies are actually almost twice the Deadly challenge- especially if built for adventurer killing (I counted them as CR 12, although they should likely be 13 at least if an archmage is 12). Not undoable but I wouldn't call it "even odds".

[SteadyAim]

In that scenario the character with the least chances of surviving ignoring every buff they should have was likely to survive unless one adds your own rulings.

It's a good combo- but it isn't OP unless you specifically make it so.

Should also be pointed out that 5 19th level enemies are actually almost twice the Deadly challenge- especially if built for adventurer killing (I counted them as CR 12, although they should likely be 13 at least if an archmage is 12). Not undoable but I wouldn't call it "even odds".

Valmark, it has been repeatedly pointed out that you need to re-familiarize yourself with the spell description of Feather Fall. What you like to call 'my rulings' is simply the spell description of Feather Fall.

[Valmark]

Valmark, it has been repeatedly pointed out that you need to re-familiarize yourself with the spell description of Feather Fall. What you like to call 'my rulings' is simply the spell description of Feather Fall.

And yet, you're the only one that thinks (or at least that said to think) that Feather Fall doesn't slow Reverse Gravity's upward fall or that Reverse Gravity can be interrupted ahead of time.

Not only that, but you decided that FF won't work only after it was shown how it would make the combo weaker which... Doesn't look very convincing.

[SteadyAim]

And yet, you're the only one that thinks (or at least that said to think) that Feather Fall doesn't slow Reverse Gravity's upward fall or that Reverse Gravity can be interrupted ahead of time.

Not only that, but you decided that FF won't work only after it was shown how it would make the combo weaker which... Doesn't look very convincing.

Valmark, please post the spell description of Feather Fall and I will begin to step you through the process by which I prove that you are wrong.

[Valmark]

Valmark, please post the spell description of Feather Fall and I will begin to step you through the process by which I prove that you are wrong.

We already know your point- Feather Fall says 'descent', so it won't work if you're falling up (you've already said so when FF became an issue to you).

That's not the only interpretation though- Feather Fall talks about descent because that's the only falling one can do without specific features (actually I think Reverse Gravity is the only thing that changes that? At least in the PHB). If you change how Falling works the application of Feather Fall becomes up to the DM.

[SteadyAim]

We already know your point- Feather Fall says 'descent', so it won't work if you're falling up (you've already said so when FF became an issue to you).

That's not the only interpretation though- Feather Fall talks about descent because that's the only falling one can do without specific features (actually I think Reverse Gravity is the only thing that changes that? At least in the PHB). If you change how Falling works the application of Feather Fall becomes up to the DM.

When gravity is reversed what is the direction of descent?

[MaxWilson]

We have been over this numerous times.

I have brought up repeatedly that the scenario in which you survive the TPK is a scenario in which the party has 5 to 1 odds against the BBEG. Should the odds be brought to even (by the BBEG adding four 19th level NPCs or the equivalent to his side) then a TPK is guaranteed. The Wizard who implements the Reverse Gravity - Prismatic Wall combo pulls off one heckuva crippling alpha strike or are you going to continue to ignore the odds and what is really transpiring here? Are you really that dead set on communicating to the audience that the combo is not OP when it clearly is?

No, you don't need 5 to 1 odds to survive. Look at the list of everything that has to go right for the bad guy to TPK you. Notice how literally NONE of it requires having 5 to 1 numerical superiority. You could be two man party of Goblin Shadow Monk and Moon Druid and still not be TPK'ed if you don't fulfill the conditions for TPK, e.g. Moon Druid is in Air Elemental form and the Shadow Monk is hidden by Pass Without Trace and has good saves.

[JackPhoenix]

We've been over this numerous times. The combo only TPKs a party if the bad guy detects the PCs incoming, wins initiative, sees all the good guys (i.e. no stealth or bad stealth), has Action Surge, party fails to Counterspell Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity (note: Subtle may not prevent Counterspelling of Prismatic Wall and definitely doesn't prevent Counterspelling of Reverse Gravity because Subtle Reverse Gravity still has an M component), party fails all of their Dex checks against Reverse Gravity or is in a place where Dex checks can't apply, the party is in Fireball formation (15' radius if you're trying to get the double-fallthrough of Prismatic Sphere), no one in the party is flying or riding a flying mount, and the damage from Prismatic Wall is enough to kill them despite whatever saving throw bonuses and Contingencies they have.

It's not so much that specific countermeasures are required to survive--on the contrary, specific scenarios are required for this to be a TPK. Otherwise it you just burned a 9th level spell, a 7th level spell, and an Action Surge to accomplish something that will be countered in one action by Revivify. It's not a particularly attractive combo to an intelligent BBEG because it isn't an I Win button, just an I May Hurt Some of You button.

Don't forget "everyone will always succeed on the save against the violet layer of PM", otherwise, they'll stop taking damage if they fail, no matter how convulted setup you'll prepare.

[Thunderous Mojo]

I have brought up repeatedly that the scenario in which you survive the TPK is a scenario in which the party has 5 to 1 odds against the BBEG. Should the odds be brought to even (by the BBEG adding four 19th level NPCs or the equivalent to his side) then a TPK is guaranteed.

I would be curious to see your setup for an encounter with Halaster Blackcloak and 4 CR 12 Archmages...(which fulfills the conditions you specified would guarentee a TPK).

I will confess to having a sour disposition this morning, but many of your posts in this thread, seemingly, are rife with intransigence, and perhaps inexperience.
(I write this not to insult, just bluntly stating my view)

To channel Paul Simon: "There are, (at least), 50 better ways to TPK your party".

If the party has a 20th level cleric, Divine Intervention, renders your Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity combo moot.

My experience is that characters that reach 20th level from actual play, have resources like Supernatural Boons, Legendary Items, Supernatural allies like Sphinx, Couatls, dragons, and Demi-gods. The characters may rule kingdoms, or often can call upon the resources of kingdoms.

Yes, the actual details can vary from campaign to campaign, which is why this board often purposely overlooks the factors I described above, but some campaigns do indeed feature them.

"Old School" campaigns, in the style of Gygax, feature terrifying risks, with fabulous rewards. PW +RG, might just be a normal Tuesday, in some worlds.

[Valmark]

When gravity is reversed what is the direction of descent?

Just make your argument, no?

Anyway if you consider "descent" to be a downward movement then the direction is the same.
If you consider "descent" to be a fall then the direction is up.

In one case Feather Fall doesn't apply, in the other it does (also thanks, I actually went to look up a dictionary and saw that "descent" isn't strictly down. The more you know).

Don't forget "everyone will always succeed on the save against the violet layer of PM", otherwise, they'll stop taking damage if they fail, no matter how convulted setup you'll prepare.

To be fair, killing or kicking people into other planes often amount to the same short term end result- assuming no Plane Shift, that is.

PCs in D&D have a tendency to not stay dead after a certain amount of levels anyway.

[MaxWilson]

Valmark, please post the spell description of Feather Fall and I will begin to step you through the process by which I prove that you are wrong.

Not Valmark but I'll post it:


Feather Fall

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls
Range: 60 feet
Components: V M (A small feather or piece of down)
Duration: 1 minute
Classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Choose up to five falling creatures within range. A falling creature’s rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. If the creature lands before the spell ends, it takes no falling damage and can land on its feet, and the spell ends for that creature.

Emphasis mine. Per round, not per turn. DM will have to rule (perhaps based on initiative) on how far the party falls "up" before their turns occur, which in turn determines when/whether they hit the Prismatic Sphere/Wall the first time and when/whether you can cancel Reverse Gravity to make them fall the other way.

[Mellack]

I am just going to throw in here that "up" and "down" are defined in relation to gravity. Someone in Australia is going to point "up" the opposite way as I would in the US. If gravity in a region were to change, it would also change what "up" and "down" are.

[SteadyAim]

Not Valmark but I'll post it:


Feather Fall

Casting Time: 1 reaction, which you take when you or a creature within 60 feet of you falls
Range: 60 feet
Components: V M (A small feather or piece of down)
Duration: 1 minute
Classes: Bard, Sorcerer, Wizard
Choose up to five falling creatures within range. A falling creature’s rate of descent slows to 60 feet per round until the spell ends. If the creature lands before the spell ends, it takes no falling damage and can land on its feet, and the spell ends for that creature.

Emphasis mine. Per round, not per turn. DM will have to rule (perhaps based on initiative) on how far the party falls "up" before their turns occur, which in turn determines when/whether they hit the Prismatic Sphere/Wall the first time and when/whether you can cancel Reverse Gravity to make them fall the other way.

Thank you for catching this. This actually makes things worse for the party.

Since racial non-magical flying is allowed in this campaign world I will go ahead and and specify my race at this point and take some race that has non magical flight (winged Tiefling, Aarokara, etc.). It synergizes extremely well with Prismatic Wall and Anti Magic Field and is a no-brainer pick if those races are allowed in the campaign.

The Simulacrum sets up the initial Prismatic Wall and Reverse Gravity. Feather Fall is fired off by the party Wizard in defense and those that are Feather Falling fall into the Sphere. The BBEG Wizard casts Anti Magic Field and positions himself snugly above the upward descending party to herd them downward to eventually force them barely through the bottom of the wall. This will force a repetitive loop as the Reverse Gravity / Feather Fall / Otiluke's Resilient Sphere is repeatedly shut off inside the AMF and then turned back on again outside the AMF to send them repeatedly through a wall of the Sphere. The wall of the Sphere is 1 inch thick so with correct positioning he can force several dozens of involuntary moves through the 1 inch wall of the Sphere over the course of a single turn. The BBEG still has an Action Surge which can be used to tidy up any loose ends. All Feather Falling characters should be dead at this point.

Also, since the odds are 5 to 1 at this point, I get to have some evil NPC characters of 19th level. At this point I will specify my first pick for an associate as a Psionic Knight/ Barbarian/ Monk/ Thief grappler build with little or no reliance on magic. Martial characters your time has come! Today is the Day the Magic Died.

At some point I will also get an equal pick of magic items.

Shall I go on or are you ready to recognize allowing involuntary movement to trigger Prismatic Wall damage as devastatingly powerful?

[Yucca]

That is not what the math says.

It's worth pointing out that with the exception of calculating the average expected outcome of 400d6 and then cutting that in half, there has been no mathematical analysis done. The fact that a deeper mathematical analysis likely can't be done (how do you calculate a % chance that the party will be walking on a mirror smooth surface all within a few feet of each other). But the fact that the deep analysis can't be done does not mean that a shallow analysis can stand in for "proof".

As others have said, under some very specific conditions this is a very deadly combination.

There was a thread here a few days ago talking about the chances an ancient red dragon had to defeat 400 commoners with light crossbows who are spread out in a 20x20 five foot grid and who are readying actions to fire as soon as the dragon is in range. Mathematically the dragon had very low odds of winning. Does this mean that it's unrealistic for DMs to portray dragons as successfully raiding small towns? No. The conclusion of many on that thread was that while these types of "white room" theorycrafted scenarios can sometimes yield novel results, they have very little applicability to actual game play.

It's definitely interesting that there's a way to force 41 DC 19 dex saves in a single turn. Is it gamebreaking in such a way that it needs to be banned or ruled against? No. Neither is 400 commoners with crossbows.

[Witty Username]

Wait, are you casting prismatic wall in the air or along the ground?
If in the air like I thought was the plan, if the arakokra is using AMF to turn off feather fall, it would destroy the prismatic wall and the reverse gravity. The party no longer needs to escape. Or am I misunderstanding entirely?

[Valmark]

Wait, are you casting prismatic wall in the air or along the ground?
If in the air like I thought was the plan, if the arakokra is using AMF to turn off feather fall, it would destroy the prismatic wall and the reverse gravity. The party no longer needs to escape. Or am I misunderstanding entirely?

Prismatic Wall ignores AMF. Ideally when the group falls up and enters the AMF they would fall back down- this homewever can only force 4 passings, not dozens, if Feather Falled because when the party falls out of the AMF they don't resume falling upward due to Feather Fall.

[MaxWilson]

Shall I go on or are you ready to recognize allowing involuntary movement to trigger Prismatic Wall damage as devastatingly powerful?

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".

For me, I say nay. Too many moving goalposts, plus ongoing failure to refute points made by skeptics about Fireball Formation, Stealth, flight, Contingency, etc. You can't just ignore your opponents counterarguments and expect to persuade anyone: Proof By Repeated Assertion is not a serious argument.

[JNAProductions]

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".

For me, I say nay. Too many moving goalposts, plus ongoing failure to refute points made by skeptics about Fireball Formation, Stealth, flight, Contingency, etc. You can't just ignore your opponents counterarguments and expect to persuade anyone: Proof By Repeated Assertion is not a serious argument.

Nay say I.

Agreed-it's not even necessarily that their position is wrong, it's that their arguments aren't very effective.

[SteadyAim]

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".

For me, I say nay. Too many moving goalposts, plus ongoing failure to refute points made by skeptics about Fireball Formation, Stealth, flight, Contingency, etc. You can't just ignore your opponents counterarguments and expect to persuade anyone: Proof By Repeated Assertion is not a serious argument.

My last post cinches the argument.

I also posted a build in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624686-Highest-Single-Spell-Attack-Damage&p=24865917#post24865917) that uses grappling to turn Prismatic Wall into 360,000 damage. A Fighter 2/ Bladesinger 18 build can of course turn that into 8 separate grappling attacks.

[MaxWilson]

My last post cinches the argument.

I read it and wasn't impressed (just more of the same handwaving as before), but we'll see if you get any votes.


I also posted a build in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624686-Highest-Single-Spell-Attack-Damage&p=24865917#post24865917) that uses grappling to turn Prismatic Wall into 360,000 damage. A Fighter 2/ Bladesinger 18 build can of course turn that into 8 separate grappling attacks.

I see some rules errors and questionable assumptions, but I'll put my comments on that thread instead of this one.

[Valmark]

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".

For me, I say nay. Too many moving goalposts, plus ongoing failure to refute points made by skeptics about Fireball Formation, Stealth, flight, Contingency, etc. You can't just ignore your opponents counterarguments and expect to persuade anyone: Proof By Repeated Assertion is not a serious argument.
Nay. To borrow Yucca's words, under some very specific conditions this is a very deadly combination.

And it better be, given the heavy investment it takes.

My last post cinches the argument.

I also posted a build in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624686-Highest-Single-Spell-Attack-Damage&p=24865917#post24865917) that uses grappling to turn Prismatic Wall into 360,000 damage. A Fighter 2/ Bladesinger 18 build can of course turn that into 8 separate grappling attacks.
I don't think you've red the replies (to your last post here) or you'd know it doesn't work.

[Yucca]

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".


For me I'm not voting because it doesn't mean anything. RAW is not clear so there needs to be a judgement call. Can anyone who doesn't believe the combo works as SteadyAim describes truely say that they would change their mind if the "ayes" won? Can anyone who believes the combo functions as described honestly say they would change theirs?

No one has mathematically proven anything here. No one has clinched any arguments. Because ultimately this is a personal judgement call.

Everyone should get to play the D&D they want to play. The way that strangers vote on the internet is not going to change that.

[MaxWilson]

Can anyone who doesn't believe the combo works as SteadyAim describes truely say that they would change their mind if the "ayes" won? Can anyone who believes the combo functions as described honestly say they would change theirs?

I'm not asking whether how you intend to rule. I'm asking a question about logical and rhetorical effectiveness: whether SteadyAim's arguments are convincing, in your eyes.

How you intend to rule is an independent question. E.g. it wouldn't be impossible for someone to find them convincing, dislike the results, and decide to run Prismatic Sphere some other way (e.g. damage triggers only once per round, just like most spells a la Wall of Fire). Or you could find unconvincing the argument that allowing involuntary movement to trigger Prismatic Sphere is brokenly strong, but have your own reasons for ruling that involuntary movement should not be damaging (and you might rule that involuntary movement is impossible and that if you're not moving voluntarily you just bounce off).

But if you don't want to vote that's okay too. I'm just curious whether we'll get many ayes.

[SteadyAim]

For me I'm not voting because it doesn't mean anything.

You are correct there.

[JNAProductions]

Steady, honest question: What are you trying to achieve here? With your arguments?

[arnin77]

My last post cinches the argument.

I also posted a build in another thread (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624686-Highest-Single-Spell-Attack-Damage&p=24865917#post24865917) that uses grappling to turn Prismatic Wall into 360,000 damage. A Fighter 2/ Bladesinger 18 build can of course turn that into 8 separate grappling attacks.

Hey SteadyAim, why don’t you get some friends together, be their DM, build them up to level 19, TPK them with your magnificent combo and shenanigans, pat yourself on the back, then come back here and try to actually help the OP with their request.

To OP, I haven’t played this high but I did see a prismatic wall in play once; unfortunately I didn’t know what it was at the time and I don’t remember how we got past it or if we even did. I think the enemy used it to escape.

To that matter it looks like the first layer is destroyed with 25 cold damage which should be easy for a party without a Wizard. Don’t have time to comment on the rest yet sorry.

[MaxWilson]

To that matter it looks like the first layer is destroyed with 25 cold damage which should be easy for a party without a Wizard. Don’t have time to comment on the rest yet sorry.

Out of curiosity, how do you generate cold damage without a spellcaster? (Or is this just "without a wizard specifically, e.g. with a sorcerer"?)

I can see how you'd generate fire damage (burning oil, torches), maybe even a strong wind (gigantic fan from strong PC or multiple PCs), but not cold.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Out of curiosity, how do you generate cold damage without a spellcaster? (Or is this just "without a wizard specifically, e.g. with a sorcerer"?)

I can see how you'd generate fire damage (burning oil, torches), maybe even a strong wind (gigantic fan from strong PC or multiple PCs), but not cold.

Dragonborn breath weapon? Maybe?

Edit: and I vote nay.

[Asisreo1]

Out of curiosity, how do you generate cold damage without a spellcaster? (Or is this just "without a wizard specifically, e.g. with a sorcerer"?)

I can see how you'd generate fire damage (burning oil, torches), maybe even a strong wind (gigantic fan from strong PC or multiple PCs), but not cold.
Theoretically? A character can take magic initiate and grab ray of frost alongside any first-level wizard, sorcerer, or warlock spell they want. Though it takes a certain foresight to grab Ray of Frost over Firebolt because of the damage type but its still possible.

[arnin77]

Out of curiosity, how do you generate cold damage without a spellcaster? (Or is this just "without a wizard specifically, e.g. with a sorcerer"?)

I can see how you'd generate fire damage (burning oil, torches), maybe even a strong wind (gigantic fan from strong PC or multiple PCs), but not cold.

Easy is probably a bad word to use, i just imagine people would take multiple damage types if they can. it certainly wouldn't be easy for myself lol

Op said without a wizard, i would imagine there are cantrips that spellcasters can use. i would think that some people would take magic initiate as well... maybe some magic items?

also, if you're "looking ahead" i would be searching for a rod of cancellation.

[MaxWilson]

Easy is probably a bad word to use, i just imagine people would take multiple damage types if they can. it certainly wouldn't be easy for myself lol

Op said without a wizard, i would imagine there are cantrips that spellcasters can use. i would think that some people would take magic initiate as well... maybe some magic items?

also, if you're "looking ahead" i would be searching for a rod of cancellation.

If you have spellcasters but just not a wizard, the easiest answer is to just teleport through the wall via Dimension Door or similar. Prismatic Sphere won't let you cast spells through the wall but with a Dimension Door the target is yourself and your cargo, so you're not casting a spell "through the wall."

Teleporting is far easier and more accessible than a rod of cancellation, and there are any number of situations where you'd want it anyway.

[SteadyAim]

Steady, honest question: What are you trying to achieve here? With your arguments?

I have always been clear about what I am arguing.

If someone rules (house rules) that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall then the spell becomes outrageously powerful as I have demonstrated. In my opinion that outrageous amount of power is a problem. The simplest solution is not to house rule that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall and simply follow the spell description.

[Yucca]

also, if you're "looking ahead" i would be searching for a rod of cancellation.

Officially the Rod of Cancellation doesn't exist in 5e. The spell description was errata'd to remove the reference. It would not be difficult to homebrew an item that served the same purpose however.

[arnin77]

If you have spellcasters but just not a wizard, the easiest answer is to just teleport through the wall via Dimension Door or similar. Prismatic Sphere won't let you cast spells through the wall but with a Dimension Door the target is yourself and your cargo, so you're not casting a spell "through the wall."

Teleporting is far easier and more accessible than a rod of cancellation, and there are any number of situations where you'd want it anyway.

Oh ok i thought someone said that teleporting wouldn't work... can you take the whole party with dim door or only you +1?

[MaxWilson]

Oh ok i thought someone said that teleporting wouldn't work... can you take the whole party with dim door or only you +1?

If you're using Dimension Door, it's only yourself +1. If you're using e.g. Summon Greater Demon to get yourself a Dybbuk who can Dimension Door you, it's still only yourself +1 but it can make multiple trips if you don't lose control. If you're using Teleport, it's +8 creatures. If it's Transport Via Plants (special circumstances required), it's dozens of creatures or potentially more.

[Ghost Nappa]

All who have found SteadyAim's arguments convincing say "aye".

All who have found it flawed or insufficient say "nay".

For me, I say nay. Too many moving goalposts, plus ongoing failure to refute points made by skeptics about Fireball Formation, Stealth, flight, Contingency, etc. You can't just ignore your opponents counterarguments and expect to persuade anyone: Proof By Repeated Assertion is not a serious argument.

Been Lurking. Vote nay.

[Valmark]

I have always been clear about what I am arguing.

If someone rules (house rules) that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall then the spell becomes outrageously powerful as I have demonstrated. In my opinion that outrageous amount of power is a problem. The simplest solution is not to house rule that involuntary movement triggers Prismatic Wall and simply follow the spell description.

You haven't demonstrated that is an house rule and your way to demonstrate that it's too strong has been to assume as many favorable conditions as possible with as many favorable rulings as possible- and your last demonstration doesn't even work.

It's fair to not make it work at your table, but you haven't actually showed why should it be too strong for it's level.

Outside of a specific build and specific conditions/ruling this combo is strong but not stronger then others.

[SteadyAim]

You haven't demonstrated that is an house rule and your way to demonstrate that it's too strong has been to assume as many favorable conditions as possible with as many favorable rulings as possible- and your last demonstration doesn't even work.

Can you clarify how my last example doesn't work?

The Anti Magic Field creates a zone where Reverse Gravity and Feather Fall and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are suppressed and Prismatic Wall is not. This causes a repeated loop where the characters will be repetitively sent into the wall with no magic to protect them. When this example was presented, MaxWilson called for a vote rather than address any problems he has with the example. Of course voting means nothing and he should instead find some rule based reason my example does not work.

[Valmark]

Can you clarify how my last example doesn't work?

The Anti Magic Field creates a zone where Reverse Gravity and Feather Fall and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are suppressed and Prismatic Wall is not. This causes a repeated loop where the characters will be repetitively sent into the wall with no magic to protect them. When this example was presented, MaxWilson called for a vote rather than address any problems he has with the example. Of course voting means nothing and he should instead find some rule based reason my example does not work.

Probably because someone else addressed your example twice and you ignored it (or because Max didn't care, there's plenty of reasons).

Anyway, when the characters fall because of the AMF they don't subsequently fall upwards again because they already fell the distance allowed from Feather Fall in that round.

You can make them fall twice more, yes, but not "dozens".

[SteadyAim]

Probably because someone else addressed your example twice and you ignored it (or because Max didn't care, there's plenty of reasons).

Anyway, when the characters fall because of the AMF they don't subsequently fall upwards again because they already fell the distance allowed from Feather Fall in that round.

You can make them fall twice more, yes, but not "dozens".

Feather Fall is going to allow 5 - 10 feet falling upward per round. The AMF is positioned to shut Feather Fall off after only using 1 inch of Feather Falling upward and starting the repetitive loop.

You should also take note that if Feather Fall is not present then the AMF combined with Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall causes an insane amount of repeated breachings of the Wall.

[Valmark]

Feather Fall is going to allow 5 - 10 feet falling upward per round. The AMF is positioned to shut Feather Fall off after only using 1 inch of Feather Falling upward and starting the repetitive loop.

You should also take note that if Feather Fall is not present then the AMF combined with Reverse Gravity and Prismatic Wall causes an insane amount of repeated breachings of the Wall.

That is not what you said earlier, since you had the AMF be casted after Feather Fall already gone off. This way makes more sense- except that it doesn't.

So, it's the turn of whoever casted Reverse Gravity, right? This means the one with an Antimagic Field isn't moving.
This means that either the AMF stops the Feather Falling characters before they passed the Prismatic Wall (which obviously doesn't trigger PW) or after they passed it... In which case they can't fall back into it since they fall upwards or not move at all.

Of course one can say that the party bobs up and down continuously- so maybe they stick their head inside the AMF, cross the Prismatic Wall, then fall back then up again.

Homewever this is a ruling- not all tables will do it like this. Again, it's only overpowered if the DM wants it to be.

[SteadyAim]

That is not what you said earlier, since you had the AMF be casted after Feather Fall already gone off. This way makes more sense- except that it doesn't.

So, it's the turn of whoever casted Reverse Gravity, right? This means the one with an Antimagic Field isn't moving.
This means that either the AMF stops the Feather Falling characters before they passed the Prismatic Wall (which obviously doesn't trigger PW) or after they passed it... In which case they can't fall back into it since they fall upwards or not move at all.

Of course one can say that the party bobs up and down continuously- so maybe they stick their head inside the AMF, cross the Prismatic Wall, then fall back then up again.

Homewever this is a ruling- not all tables will do it like this. Again, it's only overpowered if the DM wants it to be.

Its not a ruling. The interactions of the spells involved (as can be determined straightforward from their respective spell descriptions) cause a repetitive oscillation forcing the players repeatedly into the Wall.

[Valmark]

Its not a ruling. The interactions of the spells involved (as can be determined straightforward from their respective spell descriptions) cause a repetitive oscillation forcing the players repeatedly into the Wall.

The oscillation you speak of is explicitely about reaching the top of Reverse Gravity's area.

Wether it applies or not to reaching an AMF (which shuts down Reverse Gravity's effects, so it could also shut down the oscillation) is up to the DM.

[SteadyAim]

The oscillation you speak of is explicitely about reaching the top of Reverse Gravity's area.

Wether it applies or not to reaching an AMF (which shuts down Reverse Gravity's effects, so it could also shut down the oscillation) is up to the DM.

Not really. The AMF by virtue of its own suppressive field makes the edge defined by the intersection of the AMF and Reverse Gravity a new top of Reverse Gravity's area of effect.

[Valmark]

Not really. The AMF by virtue of its own suppressive field makes the edge defined by the intersection of the AMF and Reverse Gravity a new top of Reverse Gravity's area of effect.

Which, again, it's a ruling.

Reverse Gravity has a defined area with a top- and AMF only suppresses a small part of it. This does not mean the edge of the AMF is the top of Reverse Gravity.
Not only that but AMF forbades spells's effects from entering it- so it's completely fair to say that you can't enter it at all.

Again, nobody said it's a weak combo- but it does rely on rulings and various factors to TPK, like more or less any other combo I can think of.

[SteadyAim]

Which, again, it's a ruling.

Reverse Gravity has a defined area with a top- and AMF only suppresses a small part of it. This does not mean the edge of the AMF is the top of Reverse Gravity.
Not only that but AMF forbades spells's effects from entering it- so it's completely fair to say that you can't enter it at all.

Again, nobody said it's a weak combo- but it does rely on rulings and various factors to TPK, like more or less any other combo I can think of.

The top of Reverse Gravity is where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends. The intersection of AMF and Reverse Gravity is also where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends.

[Valmark]

The top of Reverse Gravity is where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends. The intersection of AMF and Reverse Gravity is also where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends.

The magic is suppressed, not ended. Those are substantially different terms.

Aside from the fact that it is incorrect already since the spell doesn't reach, it's not like it 'ends'- ending a spell is a commonly used terminology in the books that doesn't refer to this, it's also a faulty... Sillogism? That the word?

Basically if the spell doesn't reach past the top of the area it doesn't mean that the top of the area is where the spell doesn't reach.

Otherwise if I struck a solid object going up, for example if the ceiling has a hole and I missed it hitting the ceiling, it should count as the top of the area since the spell past the solid object doesn't reach (due to the rules on line of effect) homewever Reverse Gravity explicitely speaks about the top as being reached if you aren't stopped by objects.

Thus suppresing the magic mid-way doesn't make it the top of the area, since the area even keeps going past the AMF.

Again, you're free to rule otherwise- that's denied by nobody. But you can't rule everything in favor of PW+RG then expect us to agree that it's so overpowered.

[SteadyAim]

The magic is suppressed, not ended. Those are substantially different terms.

Aside from the fact that it is incorrect already since the spell doesn't reach, it's not like it 'ends'- ending a spell is a commonly used terminology in the books that doesn't refer to this, it's also a faulty... Sillogism? That the word?

Basically if the spell doesn't reach past the top of the area it doesn't mean that the top of the area is where the spell doesn't reach.

Otherwise if I struck a solid object going up, for example if the ceiling has a hole and I missed it hitting the ceiling, it should count as the top of the area since the spell past the solid object doesn't reach (due to the rules on line of effect) homewever Reverse Gravity explicitely speaks about the top as being reached if you aren't stopped by objects.

Thus suppresing the magic mid-way doesn't make it the top of the area, since the area even keeps going past the AMF.

Again, you're free to rule otherwise- that's denied by nobody. But you can't rule everything in favor of PW+RG then expect us to agree that it's so overpowered.

If it hits the ceiling and not the top then its simply anchored by gravity. The top of Reverse Gravity is where a continual flipping of the direction of gravity occurs. The top defines a singularity. That same singularity of continual flipping of the direction of gravity is produced by the intersection of RG and AMF. It is the continual flipping of the direction of gravity at 'event horizons' that causes the oscillation.

[Valmark]

If it hits the ceiling and not the top then its simply anchored by gravity. The top of Reverse Gravity is where a continual flipping of the direction of gravity occurs. The top defines a singularity. That same singularity of continual flipping of the direction of gravity is produced by the intersection of RG and AMF. It is the continual flipping of the direction of gravity at 'event horizons' that causes the oscillation.

Again, if a continual flipping happens at the top it does not necessarily mean that a continual flipping will happen at the border of the AMF. The oscillation is explicitely called out at the top of Reverse Gravity's area- which is not where the AMF is.

[Yucca]

The top of Reverse Gravity is where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends. The intersection of AMF and Reverse Gravity is also where the magic of Reverse Gravity ends.

The actual text of the spell says "if an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, for the duration."

In D&D "area" is a defined term with a very technical meaning. It doesn't mean just any volume of space. By RAW the oscillating only happens at the top of the spell's area, which is the 100ft wide 100ft tall cylinder.

If you and your game group want to make a ruling (or house rule, we seem to be using the term interchangeably, which I personally disagree with) that says an AMF creates a new "top of the area" then you're welcome to do that.

Even if you did decide to house rule that, could it not be defeated by someone simply sticking their hand in the PW and leaving it there? If they never fully leave then they never re-enter and take the damage again.

[SteadyAim]

Again, if a continual flipping happens at the top it does not necessarily mean that a continual flipping will happen at the border of the AMF. The oscillation is explicitely called out at the top of Reverse Gravity's area- which is not where the AMF is.

Except that the AMF causes the exact same sudden flipping of the direction of gravity where it suppresses Reverse Gravity. Wherever Reverse Gravity is suppressed gravity is not reversed. If you are 0.0001 inch inside of one zone gravity is hard set one way. At 0.0000 exact the gravities cancel each other out. Then at 0.0001 inch inside the other zone gravity is hard set the opposite way. A singularity.


The actual text of the spell says "if an object or creature reaches the top of the area without striking anything, it remains there, oscillating slightly, for the duration."

In D&D "area" is a defined term with a very technical meaning. It doesn't mean just any volume of space. By RAW the oscillating only happens at the top of the spell's area, which is the 100ft wide 100ft tall cylinder.

If you and your game group want to make a ruling (or house rule, we seem to be using the term interchangeably, which I personally disagree with) that says an AMF creates a new "top of the area" then you're welcome to do that.

Even if you did decide to house rule that, could it not be defeated by someone simply sticking their hand in the PW and leaving it there? If they never fully leave then they never re-enter and take the damage again.

You are confused. The oscillating happens because gravity is suddenly returned back to normal and Feather Fall is shut off when you enter the AMF. That kicks falling rules back on which move the characters back to the ground until you cross over to the other zone. Then Reverse Gravity kicks back on and Feather Fall kicks back on and you go back to slow falling up until you cross over to the opposite zone. Then Reverse Gravity and Feather Fall shut off, falling rules kick back on until you cross over to the opposite zone. And on and on and on and on.

[Yucca]

The oscillating happens because gravity is suddenly returned back to normal

The spell's description clearly states that the oscillating only happen at the top of the spell's area. This is RAW. If you want to argue that RAI is that the interplay of the different gravities causes the bobbing then you can. If you want to house rule against RAW in favor of RAI, because of your understanding of physics and momentum then that's a reasonable position to take.

However your other house rule (that involuntary movement does not trigger PW) explicitly defeats RAI by letting a commoner bypass a level 9 barrier spell by tripping and falling.

As a player I would find it frustrating if my DM was ruling in such an inconsistent way. Either RAI is important and should override RAW or it's not.

[iTreeby]

Except that the AMF causes the exact same sudden flipping of the direction of gravity where it suppresses Reverse Gravity. Wherever Reverse Gravity is suppressed gravity is not reversed. If you are 0.0001 inch inside of one zone gravity is hard set one way. At 0.0000 exact the gravities cancel each other out. Then at 0.0001 inch inside the other zone gravity is hard set the opposite way. A singularity.



You are confused. The oscillating happens because gravity is suddenly returned back to normal and Feather Fall is shut off when you enter the AMF. That kicks falling rules back on which move the characters back to the ground until you cross over to the other zone. Then Reverse Gravity kicks back on and Feather Fall kicks back on and you go back to slow falling up until you cross over to the opposite zone. Then Reverse Gravity and Feather Fall shut off, falling rules kick back on until you cross over to the opposite zone. And on and on and on and on.

But one inch is smaller than the dimensions of even a small character. They would not be passing through the wall more than once.
I vote nay

[Valmark]

The spell's description clearly states that the oscillating only happen at the top of the spell's area. This is RAW. If you want to argue that RAI is that the interplay of the different gravities causes the bobbing then you can. If you want to house rule against RAW in favor of RAI, because of your understanding of physics and momentum then that's a reasonable position to take.


This. While I wouldn't call it an house rule given that we are dealing with a possibility not included in Reverse Gravity (stopping before reaching the top without striking a solid object) so what exactly happens is open-handed it's most definitely a position one can take but not THE position.

[Yucca]

This. While I wouldn't call it an house rule given that we are dealing with a possibility not included in Reverse Gravity (stopping before reaching the top without striking a solid object) so what exactly happens is open-handed it's most definitely a position one can take but not THE position.

I mentioned parentheticaly above that I personally see a difference between a "house rule" and a "ruling". But in this thread we appear to be using the term "house rule" to refer to both.

To avoid arguing about semantics and going off topic I've just been using "house rule".

[Valmark]

I mentioned parentheticaly above that I personally see a difference between a "house rule" and a "ruling". But in this thread we still to be using the term "house rule" to refer to both.

To avoid arguing about semantics and going off topic I've just been using "house rule".

Oh sorry- I've been using them with a separate meaning and didn't notice that, so I was confused.

[MaxWilson]

Can you clarify how my last example doesn't work?

The Anti Magic Field creates a zone where Reverse Gravity and Feather Fall and Otiluke's Resilient Sphere are suppressed and Prismatic Wall is not. This causes a repeated loop where the characters will be repetitively sent into the wall with no magic to protect them. When this example was presented, MaxWilson called for a vote rather than address any problems he has with the example. Of course voting means nothing and he should instead find some rule based reason my example does not work.

I called for a vote because your argument was both (1) obviously wrong--instead of vibrating back and forth you're going to halt right on the antimagic boundary, and (2) STILL dodging all the questions about Fireball Formation, Stealth, initiative, etc. that I'd been asking repeatedly. Instead of asking yet again I just decided to see if I was the only one frustrated by your non-answers.

It's definitely not because you made such a devastating argument in that post.

[Segev]

I feel the need to point out that this is also no longer “an arch age, who would have to be stupid not to be using this exact convoluted tactic to get a TPK.” This is an aaracockra wizard 18/Fighter 2 PC with a simulacrum assistant using a very specific combination of spells and racial features to counter a specific, not-generated-for-this-challenge party’s likely responses to the initial case of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall.

I think claims that a random archmage encountered in the world not using tactics he literally can’t use being a sign that the archmage is “stupid” or the DM is somehow going easy on players are ill-founded.

[MaxWilson]

I feel the need to point out that this is also no longer “an arch age, who would have to be stupid not to be using this exact convoluted tactic to get a TPK.” This is an aaracockra wizard 18/Fighter 2 PC with a simulacrum assistant using a very specific combination of spells and racial features to counter a specific, not-generated-for-this-challenge party’s likely responses to the initial case of Reverse Gravity + Prismatic Wall.

Don't forget that he also has been declared to have Subtle metamagic via a feat to avoid Counterspells. (And even then, Subtle Reverse Gravity can still be Counterspelled because it has an M component.)


I think claims that a random archmage encountered in the world not using tactics he literally can’t use being a sign that the archmage is “stupid” or the DM is somehow going easy on players are ill-founded.

Yes. It's not a tactic that I would refuse to use as a DM because it's not strong enough to remove the element of challenge from the game. Players still have lots of ways to win against it.

(At the same time, I probably would not use the full on Aarakocra/Simulacrum/Subtle/etc. version because it's too many eggs in one basket and requires too much prep, and because I ban RAW Simulacrum as OP.)

[Yucca]

Since there was much ado about mathematically analyzing things earlier in the thread, I figured I'd give it a go. Please let me know if you think this is reasonable.

Assumptions:

I'm using the Archmage from the MM but swapping RG for the 7th level spell and PW for the 9th. Everything else remains the same.
Since the Archmage is listed as CR12 I'm assuming PCs with roughly a level 12 skillset (but this doesn't play into it much)
I'm breaking out the expected damage by the PC's Dex save, since that's really the most relevant thing here.
The party contains one PC that can cast counterspell and has it prep'd.


Scenario:
The party is moving through a cavern to where they expect to encounter the Archmage. Because they're not in what they believe to be the area where the fight will happen, they're more bunched up that they would normally be. They are all within a 30ftx30ft square and the roof of the cavern is 50ft high. However, I'm not making the party surprised.

How it plays out:
We're going to play the Archmage smart, but not uber-optimized to this one tactic. Round 1 they will hold their action to cast PW until after all the PCs have taken their turns (specifically, the readied action will be "when all visible enemies have moved, attacked, or cast a spell, I will cast PW in the sphere formation so they are all under it and the wall does not pass through any of their spaces." Feel free to pick this apart :) ) Next round they will cast RG on the party. This means that any PC who did not beat the Archmage in initiative won't have had a chance to get out from under it.

If the party's caster beat the Archmage in initiative then they will have a chance to counterspell both the PW and the RG. Otherwise they will only get one chance. Since they're don't have a 9th or 7th level slot to cast with, they're going to be rolling for it. At level 12 I'll assume a 20 for the spellcasting stat of the caster, meaning they'll need a 14 to counter the PW and a 12 to counter the RG. Since the PW is cast first, if the party's caster did not beat the Archmage in initiative we're assuming that they were working against the PW.

Counterspelling:
Since both spells have to happen for the combo, all the PC cater needs to do is counterspell one of them. Assuming that the PC caster beat the Archmage in initiative, there is a (0.65 * 0.55) 36% chance that both counterspell attempts fail. If the Archmage beats the PC caster, then there is a 65% chance. This will be our first coefficient.

Initiative:
So any PC who wins initiative against the Archmage will be able to get out from under the sphere and will be out of danger from the combo. This will be the second coefficient.

Someone with a DEX mod of +3 will need to roll a 9 or better to beat the Archmage. Therefore there's only a 40% chance of them losing initiative.



dex mod
% chance of losing initiative against the Archmage


+0
60%


+1
55%


+2 (dex=14)
50%


+2 (dex=15)
45%


+3
45%


+4
40%


+5
35%



Reverse Gravity
The next coefficient will be your chance to fail the save against Reverse Gravity. If you pass this save, the PW does nothing to you (this turn). The Archmage has a DC17 spall save listed in the stat block, so this table shows the odds of losing against a DC17 dex save based on your dex mod.



dex save mod
chance of losing against a DC17 dex save


+0
80%


+1
75%


+2
70%


+3
65%


+4
60%


+5
55%


+6
50%


+7
45%


+8
40%


+9
35%



The Wall Itself
And then finally we come to the wall itself. 5 of the 7 layers do 10d6 damage, so 50d6 points of damage for a full pass through. This will be 175hp on average. For each passed save you will take 5d6 (let's call it 18) fewer points of damage. So the expected damage from one pass through the wall is 175 - (number of expected successful saves * 18).

Based on your dex save modifier and making 5 rolls what does this look like. Characters with Evasion can cut these numbers in half.



dex save mod
number of passed saves against DC17
expected damage from the wall


+0
1
157


+1
1.25
153


+2
1.5
148


+3
1.75
144


+4
2
139


+5
2.25
135


+6
2.5
130


+7
2.75
126


+8
3
121


+9
3.25
117



All Together Now

Putting it all together we take the %chance the combo was successfully cast * the %chance the PC lost initiative against the Archmage * the %chance the PC failed their save against RG * the expected damage for them. This will give us the actuarially expected damage from a singe pass through PW.

Example:
So imagine a PC with a dex of 14 who is not proficient in dex saves.

IF the caster PC loses initiative against the Archmage the expected damage is .65*.5*.7*148 = 34hp per passthrough of the wall.
IF the PC caster wins initiative against the Archmage the expected damage is .36*.5*.7*148 = 19hp per passthrough of the wall.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS
I did not try to account for everything here. Fighters get Indominable which lets them reroll saves. Halflings are Lucky. I'm currently playing a Diviner wizard in a game and if an enemy caster drops invis and starts casting a spell, you better believe I'm using any good Portent roll I have to counter that.

Also, this tactic requires the Archmage to be a little suicidal. PW has a range of 60 feet, so the PCs that do beat them in initiative will be able to close pretty much all the way to them. This means that the Archmage will need to cast RG on the remaining PCs under the PW rather than deal with the threat right in their face. Their 99hp and 15AC are not going to last long against even just two PCs that have closed to melee range, and the fact that the Archmage just cast a 9th level spell would logically make the PCs pull out all the stops.

I'm also not accounting for the other effects of the PW. The blinding effect would happen with a con save at the beginning of the PC's next round. Blinded is a pretty debilitating condition, but it doesn't impact the about of damage you get from the wall. Also if you fail the save against the indigo layer on your first passthrough you will have disadvantage on dex saves while restrained. There aren't any more damaging layers after that, but if you have another passthrough that will impact your expected damage.

My summary
These numbers are pretty clear that this spell combo is not a win button. The average damage per passthrough is easily survivable at the level you would start to expect to see enemies capable of casting this.

However if the party is getting to the point that they're passing through the wall, they're probably dead. One of my favorite sayings is "If you put one foot in boiling water and one foot in freezing water, you'll be comfortable on average". This combo is very swingy. Most of the time it'll do nothing, but if the party fails to counterspell the combo, and the PC loses initiative against the Archmage and the PC fails their save against RG, then they're pretty much toast. At level 12 a fighter with 20 con will average 136hp (6*11+10+60). Assuming a dex of 14 they'll probably survive one pass and then they're close to dead. Unless the DM rules that the spell can only do damage to a character once per turn, they're dead.

Ultimately this will make the encounter pretty boring. Players will either be dead in the first round or spend 1.5 rounds action-economy-ing the Archmage to death and then have to revive the others.

[PhoenixPhyre]

Plus, holding a spell costs concentration. So if he goes first and gets hit hard, there's a good chance he'll lose the spell.

[Valmark]

Since there was much ado about mathematically analyzing things earlier in the thread, I figured I'd give it a go. Please let me know if you think this is reasonable.

Assumptions:

I'm using the Archmage from the MM but swapping RG for the 7th level spell and PW for the 9th. Everything else remains the same.
Since the Archmage is listed as CR12 I'm assuming PCs with roughly a level 12 skillset (but this doesn't play into it much)
I'm breaking out the expected damage by the PC's Dex save, since that's really the most relevant thing here.
The party contains one PC that can cast counterspell and has it prep'd.


Scenario:
The party is moving through a cavern to where they expect to encounter the Archmage. Because they're not in what they believe to be the area where the fight will happen, they're more bunched up that they would normally be. They are all within a 30ftx30ft square and the roof of the cavern is 50ft high. However, I'm not making the party surprised.

How it plays out:
We're going to play the Archmage smart, but not uber-optimized to this one tactic. Round 1 they will hold their action to cast PW until after all the PCs have taken their turns (specifically, the readied action will be "when all visible enemies have moved, attacked, or cast a spell, I will cast PW in the sphere formation so they are all under it and the wall does not pass through any of their spaces." Feel free to pick this apart :) ) Next round they will cast RG on the party. This means that any PC who did not beat the Archmage in initiative won't have had a chance to get out from under it.

If the party's caster beat the Archmage in initiative then they will have a chance to counterspell both the PW and the RG. Otherwise they will only get one chance. Since they're don't have a 9th or 7th level slot to cast with, they're going to be rolling for it. At level 12 I'll assume a 20 for the spellcasting stat of the caster, meaning they'll need a 14 to counter the PW and a 12 to counter the RG. Since the PW is cast first, if the party's caster did not beat the Archmage in initiative we're assuming that they were working against the PW.

Counterspelling:
Since both spells have to happen for the combo, all the PC cater needs to do is counterspell one of them. Assuming that the PC caster beat the Archmage in initiative, there is a (0.65 * 0.55) 36% chance that both counterspell attempts fail. If the Archmage beats the PC caster, then there is a 65% chance. This will be our first coefficient.

Initiative:
So any PC who wins initiative against the Archmage will be able to get out from under the sphere and will be out of danger from the combo. This will be the second coefficient.

Someone with a DEX mod of +3 will need to roll a 9 or better to beat the Archmage. Therefore there's only a 40% chance of them losing initiative.



dex mod
% chance of losing initiative against the Archmage


+0
60%


+1
55%


+2 (dex=14)
50%


+2 (dex=15)
45%


+3
45%


+4
40%


+5
35%



Reverse Gravity
The next coefficient will be your chance to fail the save against Reverse Gravity. If you pass this save, the PW does nothing to you (this turn). The Archmage has a DC17 spall save listed in the stat block, so this table shows the odds of losing against a DC17 dex save based on your dex mod.



dex save mod
chance of losing against a DC17 dex save


+0
80%


+1
75%


+2
70%


+3
65%


+4
60%


+5
55%


+6
50%


+7
45%


+8
40%


+9
35%



The Wall Itself
And then finally we come to the wall itself. 5 of the 7 layers do 10d6 damage, so 50d6 points of damage for a full pass through. This will be 175hp on average. For each passed save you will take 5d6 (let's call it 18) fewer points of damage. So the expected damage from one pass through the wall is 175 - (number of expected successful saves * 18).

Based on your dex save modifier and making 5 rolls what does this look like. Characters with Evasion can cut these numbers in half.



dex save mod
number of passed saves against DC17
expected damage from the wall


+0
1
157


+1
1.25
153


+2
1.5
148


+3
1.75
144


+4
2
139


+5
2.25
135


+6
2.5
130


+7
2.75
126


+8
3
121


+9
3.25
117



All Together Now

Putting it all together we take the %chance the combo was successfully cast * the %chance the PC lost initiative against the Archmage * the %chance the PC failed their save against RG * the expected damage for them. This will give us the actuarially expected damage from a singe pass through PW.

Example:
So imagine a PC with a dex of 14 who is not proficient in dex saves.

IF the caster PC loses initiative against the Archmage the expected damage is .65*.5*.7*148 = 34hp per passthrough of the wall.
IF the PC caster wins initiative against the Archmage the expected damage is .36*.5*.7*148 = 19hp per passthrough of the wall.

IMPORTANT CAVEATS
I did not try to account for everything here. Fighters get Indominable which lets them reroll saves. Halflings are Lucky. I'm currently playing a Diviner wizard in a game and if an enemy caster drops invis and starts casting a spell, you better believe I'm using any good Portent roll I have to counter that.

Also, this tactic requires the Archmage to be a little suicidal. PW has a range of 60 feet, so the PCs that do beat them in initiative will be able to close pretty much all the way to them. This means that the Archmage will need to cast RG on the remaining PCs under the PW rather than deal with the threat right in their face. Their 99hp and 15AC are not going to last long against even just two PCs that have closed to melee range, and the fact that the Archmage just cast a 9th level spell would logically make the PCs pull out all the stops.

I'm also not accounting for the other effects of the PW. The blinding effect would happen with a con save at the beginning of the PC's next round. Blinded is a pretty debilitating condition, but it doesn't impact the about of damage you get from the wall. Also if you fail the save against the indigo layer on your first passthrough you will have disadvantage on dex saves while restrained. There aren't any more damaging layers after that, but if you have another passthrough that will impact your expected damage.

My summary
These numbers are pretty clear that this spell combo is not a win button. The average damage per passthrough is easily survivable at the level you would start to expect to see enemies capable of casting this.

However if the party is getting to the point that they're passing through the wall, they're probably dead. One of my favorite sayings is "If you put one foot in boiling water and one foot in freezing water, you'll be comfortable on average". This combo is very swingy. Most of the time it'll do nothing, but if the party fails to counterspell the combo, and the PC loses initiative against the Archmage and the PC fails their save against RG, then they're pretty much toast. At level 12 a fighter with 20 con will average 136hp (6*11+10+60). Assuming a dex of 14 they'll probably survive one pass and then they're close to dead. Unless the DM rules that the spell can only do damage to a character once per turn, they're dead.

Ultimately this will make the encounter pretty boring. Players will either be dead in the first round or spend 1.5 rounds action-economy-ing the Archmage to death and then have to revive the others.

Mind, it's perfectly normal if I'm saying something stupid... But how does the chance of Counterspelling play into the expected damage? Or the loss of initiative? Those two don't make damage happen in the first place. They don't make anything happen in the first place.

Especially since you defined it as for each passing- past the first passing those factors shouldn't matter anymore, no?

It doesn't really matter for the example but worded like that if one of the party members doesn't move, attack or cast a spell then PW is never casted.
Also if they can't be all under it then the spell isn't going to be casted (yes, these are silly nitpickings, I know).

[MaxWilson]

Ultimately this will make the encounter pretty boring. Players will either be dead in the first round or spend 1.5 rounds action-economy-ing the Archmage to death and then have to revive the others.

It can be improved without changing CR by adding more foreshadowing and setup (archmage needs a reputation and a motive, maybe a grudge, and PCs need a hook to make them engage), some Permanent or Programmed Illusions from the archmage (fake archmages doing fake casting as Counterspell targets), terrain features, maybe an initial summoned stalking horse (e.g. Conjure Elemental: Invisible Stalker) to try to get the PCs to bunch up in the first place, and a denouement (resolve the hook and add a twist--maybe he can no longer send dreams to frighten peasants of their land, but in his documents you discover the archmage was legally in the right all along, the rightful owner of the land for the last two centuries, and now the rightful owner is his wicked great grandnephew Lord Kaldemar instead).

I'm generally opposed to the idea of making archmages something relevant for only twelve to eighteen seconds of a campaign. They should have more narrative weight than that.

[Yucca]

Mind, it's perfectly normal if I'm saying something stupid... But how does the chance of Counterspelling play into the expected damage? Or the loss of initiative? Those two don't make damage happen in the first place. They don't make anything happen in the first place.

Especially since you defined it as for each passing- past the first passing those factors shouldn't matter anymore, no?

It doesn't really matter for the example but worded like that if one of the party members doesn't move, attack or cast a spell then PW is never casted.
Also if they can't be all under it then the spell isn't going to be casted (yes, these are silly nitpickings, I know).

This is another way of saying what I was saying about the swingyness. You can think of the expected damage my analysis comes up with as "If this Archmage tried this combo 100 times, the average damage output for those 100 times would be 34hp/combo/passthrough." This sort of actuarial "expected outcome" will be true over large sample sizes, but individual trials can be significantly different. There would never (very very rarely) be a time where the wall actually did 34hp of damage. It would be a lot of zeros with an occasional mid 100s thrown in there.

Another way to use my analysis would be to say the three coefficients together represent the chance that a PC dies to the combo. If the PC has a 14 dex and the PC caster wins initiative against the Archmage, then there is a 13% chance (.36*.5*.7) chance of the PC dieing. Thinking of it this way breaks down a little bit if you're dealing with a PC with high dex save and Evasion, because they might survive a few passes through the wall.

As for the readied action trigger, You are completely correct. The trigger needs to be something observable, so it can't be "on the initiative count after the last PC's initiative count" or something metagamey like that. So if a player did nothing during their turn, the Archmage would not cast PW and would have wasted their round. But in general PCs do something during their round. I suppose a sorc using subtle MM casting a spell with only V and S components would appear to do nothing.

As a side note, doing this math was super fun. But maybe that's just because I'm a huge nerd.

[Witty Username]

Well this conversation has brought up several ways to overcome a prismatic wall at least. Which are broadly.
1. Bypass it, either with forced movement(safe to say this requires a ruling) or teleportation.
2. Break the wall, either by the stated method or some other creative means, breaking the casters concentration probably being the easiest if available.
3. Go around, if possible.

[MaxWilson]

Well this conversation has brought up several ways to overcome a prismatic wall at least. Which are broadly.
1. Bypass it, either with forced movement(safe to say this requires a ruling) or teleportation.
2. Break the wall, either by the stated method or some other creative means, (A) breaking the casters concentration probably being the easiest if available.
3. Go around, if possible.

(A) There is no concentration requirement.

[PhoenixPhyre]

(A) There is no concentration requirement.

Unless he's doing the "readied action until everyone else has moved" thing suggested above for the combo; in general the combo requires concentration because of reverse gravity. But you're right for the non-combo case.

[MaxWilson]

Unless he's doing the "readied action until everyone else has moved" thing suggested above for the combo; in general the combo requires concentration because of reverse gravity. But you're right for the non-combo case.

I agree that readying spells requires concentration, but at the point where you're trying to "break the wall" I think the spell has already gone off and concentration is no longer needed.

Thanks for clarifying though. I agree.

[Witty Username]

(A) There is no concentration requirement.
Oh Crape, I could have sworn it was concentration. In that case, not that.

[anthon]

if the wall is already up? You'll have to just zap it with the correct type of damage or spell one by one. You'll need cold damage, strong wind, force damage, passwall or another 5th level or higher spell that opens a portal on a solid surface, fire damage, bright light from the daylight spell or another 3rd level or higher light creating spell, dispel magic or a similar magic effect ending spell. If you have a couple of casters you shouldn't really have any trouble with getting rid of the thing (assuming that you can take the time and spells to do so). If you don't have the time or spells a bear totem barbarian resists all the damage associated with the wall and has a ton of HP so he might be able to just walk through and tank it than kill whatever the problem is on the other side. A teammate (such as a paladin) can assist him in making all his saves to further increase his odds. If the wall isn't up yet than a bard or warlock can counterspell whoever is casting it before it's up. A physical barrier is really only a slight additional problem to overcome and if you can break apart the prismatic wall you can almost certainly break apart a stone (or whatever) wall.


i like the quest approach of this notion. It's particularly engrossing when the spell has semi-permanent duration.

[MaxWilson]

i like the quest approach of this notion. It's particularly engrossing when the spell has semi-permanent duration.

I'd like it better if it weren't hard-coded to specific spells. E.g. why only Passwall specifically, instead of any method of making an enormous hole? Why only a Daylight spell, specifically, instead of actual sunlight (perhaps reflected onto the wall by large mirrors, if it isn't already in direct sunlight) or a huge bonfire and a lens?

[JNAProductions]

I'd like it better if it weren't hard-coded to specific spells. E.g. why only Passwall specifically, instead of any method of making an enormous hole? Why only a Daylight spell, specifically, instead of actual sunlight (perhaps reflected onto the wall by large mirrors, if it isn't already in direct sunlight) or a huge bonfire and a lens?

Why? Legacy.

Is that a good reason? Not really, no.

[Valmark]

I'd like it better if it weren't hard-coded to specific spells. E.g. why only Passwall specifically, instead of any method of making an enormous hole? Why only a Daylight spell, specifically, instead of actual sunlight (perhaps reflected onto the wall by large mirrors, if it isn't already in direct sunlight) or a huge bonfire and a lens?

You mean you'd prefer it if one could use natural means? Because it doesn't only work with Passwall or Daylight- those are examples, you can use similar spells of the same level or higher. Same for the last layer.

[MaxWilson]

You mean you'd prefer it if one could use natural means? Because it doesn't only work with Passwall or Daylight- those are examples, you can use similar spells of the same level or higher. Same for the last layer.

Oh yes, silly me. Yes, I should have said "specifically spells" not "specific spells."

[Valmark]

Oh yes, silly me. Yes, I should have said "specifically spells" not "specific spells."

Gotcha. On one side I can see why they didn't want to make a spell vulnerable to a pickaxe- on the other end, there's enough requirements that they could have opened some parts to mundane means (how many parties can deal force damage without spells? And cold? And create strong winds?).