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HoboKnight
2020-12-24, 05:10 AM
Hey guys,

I'm aiding my friend in fleshing out Nine Hells. Now, the thing with lore is, if I really abbreaviate it - there are 9 layers, really nasty place each on its own, they are populated by LE devils, each layer is ruled by this-and-this guy. Cool. But, the way I am reading lore, it tells REALLY LITTLE of the actual place.

{Scrubbed} Per such "lore" approach, {scrubbed}a socialist country with state-run economy and army. Army is really important. There is a lot of opression {Scrubbed}, who inherited his powers from his predicessor.

You get something, but nothing of the vibe. Of super-brainwashed population. Of powerty. Starvation. Of laughable, obsolete economy. Of concentration camps and horrid torture and death that takes place there. You don't get the real picture.

So, when thinking of Nine hells, well ... I think the first thing one should go along is - this is a NASTY place. Like really nasty. And most importantly it is not "just another zone from MMPORG", that happens to have red-ish soil, rivers of blood and volcanoes erupting every now and so. I think Nine hells are a place of utter opression. Scrubbed. But ... what evil deeds do take place here? How are souls(or bodies?) tortured here. What sort of unspeakable deeds take place within the devil society, they deem normal, but should horrify any normal human? What is the big "vibe" of the place?

When you enter {Scrubbed} you get a certain vibe. And all events and all concepts are intimately tied to this vibe. How do you do this for Nine hells?

thanks

Silly Name
2020-12-24, 06:43 AM
What sources do you have available? This issue may simply be a problem of reading the Cliffs Notes on the Hells and not realising there is more, across various editions.

Planescape had a lot of books that detailed the various planes, but Planes of Law is probably the one with more in-depth info for Baator. 3.x had the Planar Handbook and Manual of the Planes with more generic info, but Fiendish Codex II is a deep dive on all things Baator and Devils. Dragon Magazine #75, #75 and #91 have articles about the Nine Hells. There's also another AD&D book called Guide to Hell that may interest you.

Vahnavoi
2020-12-24, 06:53 AM
Read Dante's Inferno. Or any comic book adaptation of it. Or... really, any mythological description of various hellscapes.

Roleplaying games and their supplements are strictlt derivative, secondary sources. Just go back to the real sources.

Millstone85
2020-12-24, 07:39 AM
How are souls(or bodies?) tortured here.As I understand it from the 5e MM, it mostly involves these guys:https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/a/a4/Lemure-5e.jpg/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/436https://static.wikia.nocookie.net/forgottenrealms/images/c/c9/Chain_devil.JPG/revision/latest/scale-to-width-down/550
The first one is called a lemure. It is the form in which LE souls usually arrive in the Nine Hells of Baator, washing up on the shores of the Styx as the river goes through Avernus, the first hell.

A lemure has been stripped of its memories, though those might be retrieved from the sediments at the bottom of the Styx (for example by an hydroloth, a type of yugoloth that is immune to memory-affecting effects and actually lives in the Styx).

A lemure's body is an oozing mass of flesh, its face a permanent expression of anguish. Unlike other devils, a lemure will not permanently die even when killed on Baator. Thus, a lemure's misery knows no end, unless it is transformed into another type of devil.

The second one is called a kyton, though more commonly known as a chain devil. Its main job is to make a lemure's existence even worse. Indeed, "they are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest" (5e MM p68).

It is unclear if there is a reason to the torture beyond simple cruelty. In the vastly different 4e lore, IIRC, torturing souls was a way for devils to reap soul energy, and was also the process through which the unfortunate soul would eventually be flayed of any redeeming quality and become a true devil.

Spiderswims
2020-12-24, 09:50 AM
Dante's Inferno is the Ur source. And you can find out a lot about "Hell" from a simple internet search.

For D&D:

The 2E Planescape boxed set, Faces of Evil book, Planewalkers Handbook, Hellbound box set and Planes of Law boxed set have the bulk of lore.

See also the 2E adventure Paladin in Hell is a good place to start too.

3E has the Fiendish codex II

Don't think there is much for 4E/5E....

And then you can also check out this ancient website: http://www.pathguy.com/baator.html

Mastikator
2020-12-24, 12:45 PM
Since Avernus is (one of?) the place(s) of the blood war anyone who finds themselves in the wasteland hell may find demons battling devils. There wouldn't be anywhere to be safe, I think one way to make the players feel unsafe is to not let them rest. Every time they try to rest they are ambushed by demons or devils. Their resources should whittle down and never recover. If they make it to the bronze citadel or some other settlement they have to pay outrageous fees to enter, everything they need (rations) comes at a huge markup. Hit the players where it really hurts: their GP. Besides that, if they want to use any amenity they have to jump through all kinds of hoops and play Simon Says with the authorities. I think that would make it a proper pain simulator.

Millstone85
2020-12-24, 04:46 PM
Don't think there is much for 4E/5E....The 5e DMG gives a brief overlook of the planes, with Baator being the only one to be described layer by layer. These descriptions are mostly about the infernal landscapes, including the rivers of blood and volcanoes that HoboKnight wasn't so fond of in his opening post.

The later 5e book Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes dedicates its first chapter to the Blood War, and is IMO a bit better at presenting the themes of each of the Nine Hells. Here is a selection of quotes:


Zariel rules over the ruin that Avernus has become. Once it was a bustling realm filled with cities, trade outposts, and other features, but recent activity in the Blood War has reduced it to a blasted wasteland. The few structures still standing are citadels constructed by the devils to repel attackers, to be rebuilt each time the front line of the war moves. The devils are in control of Avernus at present, though the fighting goes on (as it always does) in isolated locales throughout the layer.

Using some of the great number of secret techniques Dispater has unearthed over his lifetime, the foundries of Dis produce deadly armaments that help to stem the abyssal tide. The fighting requires constant reinforcements, creating a voracious appetite for the products of the iron mines on Dis and the workshops in the sprawling metropolis that shares the name of the layer.

As the lord of Minauros, Mammon oversees the soul trade. [...] Mammon has accumulated a great treasure hoard, but spends only a small portion of it on maintaining his domain. As a result, Minauros is a fetid, wretched place, its structures characterized by cheap construction, flimsy materials, and shoddy artisanship.

Phlegethos is the center of the Nine Hells' judicial system, which is overseen by Belial. Any disputes regarding contracts, accusations of cowardice in battle or dereliction of duty, and other criminal charges are resolved here. [...] The realm's primary city, Abriymoch, is a pleasure palace of sorts for devils that are enjoying a respite from their duties. Abriymoch is filled with devilish versions of taverns, theaters, casinos, and other entertainments.

Every other layer of the Nine Hells has a function related to warfare, industry, administration, or commerce, but Stygia is an expanse of untamed, unimproved territory. Even so, it has its uses. [...] Lesser devils that need to sharpen their combat skills or improve their endurance before reporting to Avernus for duty in the Blood War spend time in Stygia. [...] Any devils bound to either [Levistus or Geryon] that aren't needed for service in the Blood War engage in constant skirmishes across the ice, and yugoloths and other mercenaries from across the planes play a key role in the struggle.

Malbolge is the prison of the Nine Hells, and on this layer dwells its most infamous criminal. Glasya, the rebellious daughter of Asmodeus, rules the place and oversees the punishments doled out to devils that stray from their assigned tasks. [...] Condemned devils are typically trapped in cages, which are lowered on chains to hang beneath the platforms. From such a vantage, the prisoners are continually battered by Malbolge's avalanches, causing injuries that are agonizing but never fatal.

Every edict, policy statement, scientific treatise, and other document in the Nine Hells is recorded, copied, and filed away in Maladomini's archives. These storehouses are buried deep underground , so that they would remain intact if the layer is ever again hit by the sort of devastation that occurred when Baalzebul was brought to heel.

Cania is essentially an enormous laboratory. Mephistopheles and his devotees prefer to conduct their studies in a wasteland where they can unleash gouts of arcane energy without destroying anything important. Experiments involving new spells, new magic items, and other innovations for the infernal arsenal regularly cause localized cataclysms in this place.

Asmodeus resides in Nessus, the bottommost layer of the Nine Hells. By design, the place is devoid of activity, since Asmodeus values his privacy and safety. [...] Asmodeus dwells in a great fortress somewhere in the wasteland, at the bottom of its deepest pit. Only his most trusted followers and most important advisors know the route to it. He remains inside, relying on messengers and magic to convey his dictates.

FabulousFizban
2020-12-25, 03:36 AM
Heaven for the weather, Hell for the company.
-Mark Twain

MrStabby
2020-12-25, 11:28 AM
Hey guys,

I'm aiding my friend in fleshing out Nine Hells. Now, the thing with lore is, if I really abbreaviate it - there are 9 layers, really nasty place each on its own, they are populated by LE devils, each layer is ruled by this-and-this guy. Cool. But, the way I am reading lore, it tells REALLY LITTLE of the actual place.

{Scrub the post, scrub the quote}

You get something, but nothing of the vibe. Of super-brainwashed population. Of powerty. Starvation. Of laughable, obsolete economy. Of concentration camps and horrid torture and death that takes place there. You don't get the real picture.

So, when thinking of Nine hells, well ... I think the first thing one should go along is - this is a NASTY place. Like really nasty. And most importantly it is not "just another zone from MMPORG", that happens to have red-ish soil, rivers of blood and volcanoes erupting every now and so. I think Nine hells are a place of utter opression. {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}. But ... what evil deeds do take place here? How are souls(or bodies?) tortured here. What sort of unspeakable deeds take place within the devil society, they deem normal, but should horrify any normal human? What is the big "vibe" of the place?

When you enter {Scrub the post, scrub the quote}you get a certain vibe. And all events and all concepts are intimately tied to this vibe. How do you do this for Nine hells?

thanks

{Scrubbed}

So are you after 5th ed descriptions or content to flesh itmout or ideas for yourself to add to it?

If the latter, I would begin by using the LE nature as a starting point. What rule, if followed, could give rise to suffering? Assign some of these to each level and use it to epitomize what that layer is.

Edit: just realised this isnt 5th edition forum. Discount those references.

MarkVIIIMarc
2020-12-25, 01:24 PM
The 5e DMG gives a brief overlook of the planes, with Baator being the only one to be described layer by layer. These descriptions are mostly about the infernal landscapes, including the rivers of blood and volcanoes that HoboKnight wasn't so fond of in his opening post.

The later 5e book Mordenkainen's Tome of Foes dedicates its first chapter to the Blood War, and is IMO a bit better at presenting the themes of each of the Nine Hells. Here is a selection of quotes:











Read what this person posted.

The descriptions are short for a number of reasons.

1 the book is only soo kong
2 DMs all seem to have a different take on things
3 not all of you all enjoy reading the infrastructure reports concerning the municipalites or countries we actually live in much less one you may never see in a campaign
4 sometimes you just have to make up what works for your story

Zariel have a good 50 years? The hell trains run in time.

Your players disrupt the flow of souls, act accordingly.

Segev
2020-12-25, 02:53 PM
You may also benefit from Descent Into Avernus. It’s bound to develop that layer to so s greater extent.

Telok
2020-12-25, 10:01 PM
I tend to run the upper and lower planes of D&D land like the Matrix. No, seriously.

All the souls that shift to the lower planes pop into a giant modern/1930s hell-city as eternal wage slaves with no hope doing all the menial paperwork that keeps the place going. The demons and devils are basically like the Mr. Smith programs, what with the flying and teleporting and immunities to the local environment. It's an alien, confusing, and hostile place for faux-medieval characters. Of course for this one there's no "outside" to it. Not that you'd want to go there what with the no food, no saftey, no loot, no magic thing that would be going on.

patchyman
2021-01-04, 12:19 PM
My approach to the Nine Hells leans really into the Lawful Evil aspect. Imagine your worst job as a large corporation with a toxic workplace. The 9 Hells is like that except:
- if you ended up in the Nine Hells, you were already a toxic person, so there aren’t the islands of sanity you would find in a real workplace;
- you can’t quit;
- the boss knows you can’t quit and won’t get in trouble regardless of what he does to you.

The Hells is full of people who suck up to the powerful and bully the weaker. Anyone at the same level is either a useful idiot or a rival to be undermined.

Things get done: high stakes and massive pressure concentrates the mind wonderfully, but everything is unpleasant, inefficient and toxic. People betray each other regularly, but only if they think they can get away with it. The best way to get anything done is either through intimidation or appeals to self-interest, but standard intimidation “do what I say or I’ll beat you up” doesn’t work. You need to threaten devils with something they actually fear and demonstrate that you have some means to follow through.

I would consider imposing disadvantage on all Per and Int checks unless the character leverages something that matters to the devil.

Anymage
2021-01-04, 08:01 PM
Reading Dickens or watching Brazil (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0) might be a good start, if anachronistic to most D&D characters. The former plays up what happens in a rulebound society that openly embraces untrammeled capitalism, while the latter is a society that has become nonsensical under its own weight. Both could serve as good inspiration for the plane of pure LE.

Eldan
2021-01-05, 07:31 AM
I don't think that the hells should really be filled with endless layers of inefficient and absurd bureaucracy. Because they are at war. They are permanently at war. And it's a war run by creatures that are all more intelligent than the greatest geniuses the human race has ever created, who are also thousands of years old and have access to magic. So I think they should be quite the opposite: scarily efficient and streamlined.

The bureaucracy knows every contingency and has planned for it. They have the forms ready for any request you can think of and the list of why it will or will not be granted. If something needs to be done fast, it will be done in seconds, including shoving someone up six layers of the bureaucracy because their request is too important for low-level goons.

Bohandas
2021-01-06, 02:51 PM
What sources do you have available? This issue may simply be a problem of reading the Cliffs Notes on the Hells and not realising there is more, across various editions.

What I've read of it doesn't come off as being as oppressive or as bureaucratic as it should be. For one thing, it doesn't seem sufficiently difficult for people (and especially for foreigners) to avoid being arrested for random trifling BS. For another thing, slavery is somehow less emphasized in works about Baator than it is in works about the Abyss.

Now I've thought of an explanation for why this could be, but this explanation is not explicit in the works, and I only just now thought of how to describe it. If you've seen the movie Cabin In The Woods, it's a little like totalitarian regimes are the titular cabin, and Baator is the cult's control room, which dispenses and controls the horrors, but is not part of or affected by them.


Reading Dickens or watching Brazil (https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0088846/?ref_=nv_sr_srsg_0) might be a good start, if anachronistic to most D&D characters. The former plays up what happens in a rulebound society that openly embraces untrammeled capitalism, while the latter is a society that has become nonsensical under its own weight. Both could serve as good inspiration for the plane of pure LE.

Also the RPG Paranoia, the book Small Gods by Terry Pratchett, and the works of Kafka and Orwell

Millstone85
2021-01-08, 05:33 AM
For another thing, slavery is somehow less emphasized in works about Baator than it is in works about the Abyss.My impression of Baator's soul trade is that every devil belongs to another devil, which themself belongs to another, and so on, up to an archdevil or possibly Asmodeus.

By contrast, there would be plenty of free-roaming demons.

Mastikator
2021-01-08, 06:12 AM
My impression of Baator's soul trade is that every devil belongs to another devil, which themself belongs to another, and so on, up to an archdevil or possibly Asmodeus.

By contrast, there would be plenty of free-roaming demons.

I think the most common theme of everyone who lives in the nine hells is that they are all prisoners there in some capacity. Importantly their predicament is due to their own choices, they're in a hell of their own making. Besides fear, the feeling you should feel for devils is pity.

Silly Name
2021-01-08, 06:34 AM
What I've read of it doesn't come off as being as oppressive or as bureaucratic as it should be. For one thing, it doesn't seem sufficiently difficult for people (and especially for foreigners) to avoid being arrested for random trifling BS.

Do they need to be an oppressive bureaucracy? It's certainly a common way to depict Hell in fiction, but it's not the only one.

It has been pointed out that Baator owes a lot to Dante's Inferno, with the environment itself being hostile and dangerous, most of the devils dedicated to torture and debauchery and horror. Trespassers have to survive against hails of fire, memory-erasing waters, acidic lakes, freezing landscapes, bottomless pits and more: there's no need to worry much about keeping average visitors in check when they may be incinerated by a rain of fireballs.

The devils themselves live in a strict caste order, each devil (officially) being completely subservient to the higher-ranking ones - the only one who doesn't have to answer to anyone is Asmodeus himself, and he has to keep the whole thing running while also carefully balancing a dozen conspiracies and plots against both his own servants and his enemies.

Also, there's a concrete risk of being press-ganged in the Blood War for those wandering Avernus, and movement between the various layers is subject to strict scrutiny. If you get caught somewhere you aren't allowed to be, you get killed.

It should also be kept in mind that the Upper Layers are more easily accessible by design (or at least some sections of them): the devils want to trade and make business with planar visitors. However, the deeper you go, the higher chance there is of being arrested and/or killed on sight, with Nessus itself being off-limits for anyone not personally approved of by Asmodeus.

Millstone85
2021-01-08, 06:46 AM
I think the most common theme of everyone who lives in the nine hells is that they are all prisoners there in some capacity. Importantly their predicament is due to their own choices, they're in a hell of their own making. Besides fear, the feeling you should feel for devils is pity.That applies to all souls whose alignment brought them to the Lower Planes. Granted, the theme would be less common in the Abyss, where only some demons are formed from these souls.


It should also be kept in mind that the Upper Layers are more easily accessible by design (or at least some sections of them): the devils want to trade and make business with planar visitors.I remember Crawford saying in an interview that Asmodeus wanted Avernus to be a paradise of temptation, like a big shop window for everything an infernal contract could get you. But the Blood War making it to Avernus put that project literally in ruins.

Bohandas
2021-01-08, 10:31 AM
My impression of Baator's soul trade is that every devil belongs to another devil, which themself belongs to another, and so on, up to an archdevil or possibly Asmodeus.

Yes, but in a way that resembles feudalism more than chattel slavery. Serfs aren't free, but they generally also aren't micromanaged by a guy with a whip either.

Millstone85
2021-01-08, 12:26 PM
Yes, but in a way that resembles feudalism more than chattel slavery. Serfs aren't free, but they generally also aren't micromanaged by a guy with a whip either.When you arrive in Baator as one of many new lemures, you soon find yourself under the "care" of someone who lives to swing spiked chains. You might be herded to serve as cannon fodder in the Blood War, or be put on display in a soul marketplace.

If you are lucky, you eventually get promoted to an imp. That means you are now, at best, a familiar. Or you might take part in fun activities such as:
Dispater's paranoia affects everything he does. For example, he often dispatches orders and other missives by branding his message on the back of an imp. The imp wears a leather vest that conceals the message, and the laces of the vest are knitted into the imp's heart. If the vest is removed by anyone other than the intended recipient, that act kills the imp and causes its body to disintegrate before the message can be read.

Further up the infernal ladder, things become much more refined. You start being treated like a serf, imagine yourself a prized servant, or even begin to flaunt fancy titles of nobility. But any mistake could mean demotion.

Bohandas
2021-01-08, 01:51 PM
I remember Crawford saying in an interview that Asmodeus wanted Avernus to be a paradise of temptation, like a big shop window for everything an infernal contract could get you. But the Blood War making it to Avernus put that project literally in ruins.

That's an OK start, but now what it needs is a bunch of devils with forced smiles who have been ordered to pretend that Avernus still is that paradise of temptation.

anthon
2021-01-08, 04:29 PM
Read Dante's Inferno. Or any comic book adaptation of it. Or... really, any mythological description of various hellscapes.

Roleplaying games and their supplements are strictlt derivative, secondary sources. Just go back to the real sources.


or watch the anime


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WvCMXy6jrJ0

the thing i loved and hated about this anime was how dark it felt. Not a happy place. Good show if you are going for bad feelings.

and yes, both the anime and DnD 9 hells are both based on Dante's Inferno.

Grim Portent
2021-01-08, 07:42 PM
Basing it too closely off the Divine Comedy makes for a hell that doesn't make sense in D&D though. The Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno hell makes sense because it exists solely to torture people who are condemned there by their sins, it doesn't really interact with anything outside itself except mortals and even then only extremely rarely.

D&D hell is not divinely mandated punishment, nor is it isolated or lacking in enemies who can and will charge in with fire and sword, so it can't really waste time on ironic cruelty unless it actively achieves something. Every soul beng flayed or boiled perpetually is one that isn't working in mines or factories or fighting against the demons. Plus the more evil someone was in life the more powerful they are likely to be when turned into a devil, so the most wicked souls are more useful being transformed straight into a leadership position.

Of course there's also the problem of almost everyone in D&D hell having no memories of their mortal life and starting out as a mewling blob of mindless flesh, so their suffering isn't even meaningful when it does happen.

Dante's Inferno type hell would actually make more sense for the Abyss and D&D demons, pointless eternal torture for things done in life makes far more sense for creatures who exist solely to destroy and torment than it does for creatures who decided that the former needed to be stopped no matter how much pain their methods caused.

Lord Raziere
2021-01-08, 07:49 PM
The hells are infinite, yes?

then this question is easy: they are like however you want them to be like, because in an infinite tapestry of possibility, eventually all possibilities will inevitably happen. Therefore any possibility you come up with or like is in some way, shape or form a correct depiction in some part of hell. the real answer to the question is "All the above and below". take any of the answers in this thread you want and use them however you like.

Bohandas
2021-01-08, 09:09 PM
DnD 9 hells are ... based on Dante's Inferno.

More "inspired by" than "based on". Saying Baator is based on The Inferno is a bit like saying that Devil May Cry is based on The Inferno


Basing it too closely off the Divine Comedy makes for a hell that doesn't make sense in D&D though. The Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno hell makes sense because it exists solely to torture people who are condemned there by their sins, it doesn't really interact with anything outside itself except mortals and even then only extremely rarely.

D&D hell is not divinely mandated punishment

but wasn't that the point of the Pact Primeval though? Or at least the parts that weren't fine print?

Grim Portent
2021-01-08, 09:21 PM
but wasn't that the point of the Pact Primeval though? Or at least the parts that weren't fine print?

As I understand it the Pact Primeval was more about acknowledging the nascent hell and it's role as the vanguard of the forces of Law and the rights and duties it has, rather than the collected gods and powers deciding to create a place to punish people they didn't like. Indeed part of the point was that many gods and other powers didn't want to let it exist because they consider all evil unconscionable.

denthor
2021-01-09, 10:19 AM
You need remember imps are there as messengers. They offer deals, give plot hooks, tour guides, anyone who is there without a contract is free to make a contract.

No side is better or worse than the other. Just a different flavor of magic.

Assume torture on a regular basis is synchronize. This is where the tour guide takes you first. These were our enemies.

So much like Captain Hook you are asked to come and sign the book.

Also those who stay of free will are highly prized and bribed for the first 1,000 years or so.

Millstone85
2021-01-09, 07:15 PM
After reading the posts on Dante's Inferno, I felt like trying to attribute a sin to each layer of Baator.

A couple seem straightforward:

Avernus is a war zone, ruled by an angel who fell when her wrath consumed her.
Minauros is a miserly realm, ruled by a guy whose name literally means greed.

Dis fits neatly between Avernus and Minauros. It is a realm of mines and forges, ruled by an arms dealer (who wears the most polyvalent of magical armors. Sounds like an evil version of this guy (https://youtu.be/Y63i2NR9-LE), doesn't it?). While that's awesome, I have no idea what to write there other than wrath/greed.

Then there is Phlegethos. This one, ruled in tandem by the dutiful Belial and the suave Fernia, is known for its tribunals and its pleasure palaces. An odd combination for sure. But it sorta comes together when one learns that it is the place where devils get demoted or promoted, as "the flames either bring searing agony that reduces a devil to a weaker form, or ecstatic joy that transforms it into a mightier being" (MToF p13). With that, I am going to say lust.

Malbolge is Hell within Hell, a place of prisons and torture chambers where devils are sent for having failed their duties. Yet its own ruler, Glasya, has set up a thieves' guild there. You sure you are lawful-aligned, guys? Anyway, I am leaning on envy.

Stygia, Maladomini, Cania and Nessus... These are all wastelands, the last three hiding archives, laboratories and the head honcho's palace. And well, I am drawing a blank there.

Phhase
2021-01-13, 04:44 AM
You can find descriptions of every layer of every plane in the Manual of the Planes sourcebook from 3.5 (Most things haven't changed from then), including the 9 hells.

1. Avernus - A cracked and blasted landscape of barren, mountainous ruins. There are endless battles here, courtesy of the Blood War. The River Styx runs through it.

2. Dis - A massive city of iron, searing hot to the touch.

3. Minauros - A vile, sucking swamp full of acrid fumes and unknowable horrid monstrosities

4. Phlegethos - Rivers of fire and brimstone. Much like the Plane of Fire.

5. Stygia - An endless arctic ocean, crowded with ice floes.

6. Malbolge - Silmilar to Gehenna, Malbolge is an endless canyon wall, a slope without top or bottom where rockslides are common.

7. Maladomini - A landscape coated in apocalyptic urban grunge, as the barren landscape is dotted with endless abandoned cities.

8. Cania - Cold, cold, yet colder than Stygia, no liquid water remains in the cryogenic crucible of Cania. All everything is glacier and avalanche.

9. Nessus - A barren, flat plain cracked all over with canyons and trenches so deep, that even falling would take one days to reach the bottom.

Eldan
2021-01-13, 04:57 AM
Not actually sure what Malebolge looks like these days. They updated that a few times when rulership over the plane changed. At some point, the Hag Countess exploded when she was replaced with Glasya and giant body parts, organs and general globs of gore were scattered over the entire layer.

Glorthindel
2021-01-14, 05:55 AM
Basing it too closely off the Divine Comedy makes for a hell that doesn't make sense in D&D though. The Divine Comedy/Dante's Inferno hell makes sense because it exists solely to torture people who are condemned there by their sins, it doesn't really interact with anything outside itself except mortals and even then only extremely rarely.

D&D hell is not divinely mandated punishment, nor is it isolated or lacking in enemies who can and will charge in with fire and sword, so it can't really waste time on ironic cruelty unless it actively achieves something. Every soul beng flayed or boiled perpetually is one that isn't working in mines or factories or fighting against the demons. Plus the more evil someone was in life the more powerful they are likely to be when turned into a devil, so the most wicked souls are more useful being transformed straight into a leadership position.

Of course there's also the problem of almost everyone in D&D hell having no memories of their mortal life and starting out as a mewling blob of mindless flesh, so their suffering isn't even meaningful when it does happen.

Dante's Inferno type hell would actually make more sense for the Abyss and D&D demons, pointless eternal torture for things done in life makes far more sense for creatures who exist solely to destroy and torment than it does for creatures who decided that the former needed to be stopped no matter how much pain their methods caused.

Ravenloft is in some aspects portrayed closer to the Dante-style hell, but only at the Darklord level, as they are truly eternally trapped and subjected to constant reminders of their crimes and failures, and taunted with the possibility of eventual escape/success, only to have it snatched away time and again.

Millstone85
2021-01-14, 08:54 AM
Here is a more personal reading of the Nine.

Avernus

Do you like the Blood War? I do. It is the true clash of Law and Chaos, with no chance of peace or any concern for whoever gets caught in the crossfire. And Avernus is the Blood War's most famous battlefield, right at the gates of Law! So not only is it one of the best layers of Baator, but I daresay that it might be a better plane of war than Acheron.

Bonus: Zariel's theme (https://youtu.be/1fng0OQu1PU)

Dis

Many of the lawful planes are home to metallic constructs, including the gnomish toys of Bytopia, the forged ecosystem of Arcadia, and the modrons of Mechanus. In turn, Dis is where hellfire engines are assembled, in a frantic course to equip the troups of the previous layer. It ought to be the ultimate industrial nightmare. I like that a lot.

Bonus: Dispater's theme (https://youtu.be/8aQRq9hhekA)

Minauros

The miserly realm of a guy whose name literally means greed. Here, devils trade in gold and souls amidst precarious buildings that slowly sink into the mud. And that's it, but it is already such a strong picture.

Bonus: Mammon's theme (https://youtu.be/tL87zyuIy6M)

Phlegethos

A place of reward and punishment, as meted by its two rulers. On the one hand, it is a Las Vegas where devils enjoy a respite from their duties. On the other hand, it is a court of law where devils are convicted for failing in their duties. And then there is the omnipresent flames, which most of the time do nothing, but may also "either bring searing agony that reduces a devil to a weaker form, or ecstatic joy that transforms it into a mightier being" (MToF p13). So far, four layers, four wins.

Bonus: A very NSFW (though clean enough for YouTube) music video (https://youtu.be/ulfeM8JGq7s) that I am reminded of.

Stygia (and also Maladomini, Cania and Nessus)

I am grouping these four because they share the trait of being mostly empty wastelands, and I just got to ask why? Stygia is like the Arctic Ocean, Maladomini is all deserted cities, Cania is like Antarctica, and Nessus is a maze of pits. While I know there is a bit more than that going on, I still don't see the appeal.

Bonus: I got nothing.

Malbolge

Welcome to Hell within Hell, inhabited by devils for whom demotion was not enough. There, other devils get to unleash their full cruelty on them. Yet at the same time, the ruler of the place has set up the equivalent of a thieves' guild. You sure you lawful evil, guys? Or is it an Orwellian con to root out conspirators? In any case, an interesting place.

Bonus: Glasya's theme (https://youtu.be/tWYCS6k1IOA)

Segev
2021-01-14, 02:25 PM
I remember Crawford saying in an interview that Asmodeus wanted Avernus to be a paradise of temptation, like a big shop window for everything an infernal contract could get you. But the Blood War making it to Avernus put that project literally in ruins.


You can find descriptions of every layer of every plane in the Manual of the Planes sourcebook from 3.5 (Most things haven't changed from then), including the 9 hells.

1. Avernus - A cracked and blasted landscape of barren, mountainous ruins. There are endless battles here, courtesy of the Blood War. The River Styx runs through it.


Here is a more personal reading of the Nine.

Avernus

Do you like the Blood War? I do. It is the true clash of Law and Chaos, with no chance of peace or any concern for whoever gets caught in the crossfire. And Avernus is the Blood War's most famous battlefield, right at the gates of Law! So not only is it one of the best layers of Baator, but I daresay that it might be a better plane of war than Acheron.

Bonus: Zariel's theme (https://youtu.be/1fng0OQu1PU)

The idea from Crawford gives me the interesting idea that it's not ENTIRELY in ruins. I really enjoyed the first season of an anime whose shortform name is "KimiBoku" and which translates roughly to "Shall this be our last crusade?" which, on the face of it, is a star-crossed lovers romance, but is hilarious without being comedic in how it contrives the whole thing. Anyway, rather than tout why I like the anime, the reason I mention it is because there's a magic kingdom and a tech empire that are at war (with the romantic pairing being important people on opposite sides, of course). But there are a number of "neutral cities" that the war is forbidden from, and which are used as vacation spots by both sides. The romantic pair keep running into each other at them.

Demons appreciate their vices just as much as devils do. What if some of the Las Vegas-like Cities of Sin that are meant to be glittering jewels of vice and pleasure survive in part because, despite the Blood War, there's some unspoken agreement to leave them alone as long as demons and devils both get to enjoy them? Maybe the biggest and best-protected (or least-ruined) ones are even on the border with Gehenna, simply because enough chaos seeps in from the demonic activity to pull them there.

So you have not only the Mad Max wasteland of war, but towering magipunk metropolises that stand amidst the ruins, perhaps right along the Styx, that are either strongholds of Devils not yet fallen, or "neutral" cities run by ... pragmatic ... devilish forces which bend or twist the rules to allow demons in as long as demons don't wreck up the place (and get left alone because they have a secret high-powered demon patron or two who will severely punish any lower-ranking demons that mess up the nice thing they have going on).

Eldan
2021-01-15, 06:39 AM
If anyone was running a Blood War Las Vegas trying to cater to both sides, it would be the Yugoloth. They would also be hilariously bad at it (at least from a mortal standpoint), because their thing is disease, darkness, fear, clinical apathy and forbidden knowledge, not carnal pleasures.

Segev
2021-01-15, 10:15 AM
If anyone was running a Blood War Las Vegas trying to cater to both sides, it would be the Yugoloth. They would also be hilariously bad at it (at least from a mortal standpoint), because their thing is disease, darkness, fear, clinical apathy and forbidden knowledge, not carnal pleasures.

Which might be why the successful efforts are run by devils with more focus on the smooth running of their cities than actively pursuing the blood war.

Millstone85
2021-01-19, 07:38 PM
What if some of the Las Vegas-like Cities of Sin that are meant to be glittering jewels of vice and pleasure survive in part because, despite the Blood War, there's some unspoken agreement to leave them alone as long as demons and devils both get to enjoy them?I can see at least a handful of reasons why this wouldn't work:

Devils do not do unspoken agreements, except when they silently hand you a paper to sign.
Demons are the embodiment of why we can't have nice things.
It would more hazardous for devils than for demons, because of home-plane death mechanics.
The cities might indeed slide toward Gehenna, which would mean the devils are losing them.
Even assuming Bel allowed such experiments, Zariel would not.

Segev
2021-01-19, 10:59 PM
I can see at least a handful of reasons why this wouldn't work:

Devils do not do unspoken agreements, except when they silently hand you a paper to sign.
Demons are the embodiment of why we can't have nice things.
It would more hazardous for devils than for demons, because of home-plane death mechanics.
The cities might indeed slide toward Gehenna, which would mean the devils are losing them.
Even assuming Bel allowed such experiments, Zariel would not.


While I agree that these are all valid reasons for it not to work, my purpose wasn't to say, "It works this way," but to share an evocative possibility for the plane. If I were trying to make it happen, I'd work on answers to those, but I don't really want to get into what would likely become an argument rather than a discussion of ways to make that setting element work. :smallfrown:

Bohandas
2021-01-20, 12:25 AM
Stygia (and also Maladomini, Cania and Nessus)

I am grouping these four because they share the trait of being mostly empty wastelands, and I just got to ask why? Stygia is like the Arctic Ocean, Maladomini is all deserted cities, Cania is like Antarctica, and Nessus is a maze of pits. While I know there is a bit more than that going on, I still don't see the appeal.

Bonus: I got nothing.

Mephistopheles' Theme (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=en1uwIzI3SE)

Eldan
2021-01-20, 04:30 AM
Which might be why the successful efforts are run by devils with more focus on the smooth running of their cities than actively pursuing the blood war.

I mean, sure, but the 'loths would be really good at waiting for you in a back alley with a lead pipe to break your kneecaps if you win too much.

Eldan
2021-01-20, 04:31 AM
Mephistopheles seem to basically use Cania (or Caina, sometimes) as that bomb range the mythbusters occasionally went to to blow up cement trucks.

Millstone85
2021-01-20, 06:37 AM
While I agree that these are all valid reasons for it not to work, my purpose wasn't to say, "It works this way," but to share an evocative possibility for the plane. If I were trying to make it happen, I'd work on answers to those, but I don't really want to get into what would likely become an argument rather than a discussion of ways to make that setting element work. :smallfrown:I am sorry if I appeared confrontational.

Personally, I would imagine such neutral cities in the Outlands, in the vicinity of Torch.


Mephistopheles' Theme (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=en1uwIzI3SE)Well, that was fire *ba dum tss*.

Azuresun
2021-01-29, 09:53 AM
That's an OK start, but now what it needs is a bunch of devils with forced smiles who have been ordered to pretend that Avernus still is that paradise of temptation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u4S5ECp7iYE&t=1s

"Take a moment to look around you. Witness the beauty of the world we have created!"


For general Hellish inspiration, I'd highly recommend the World of Darkness sourcebook The Thousand Hells.

Bookshelfstud
2021-01-29, 12:51 PM
Lots of good thoughts in the thread! In my most recent game, I've emphasized the bureaucracy of the nine hells as a security measure - protecting themselves from the more chaotically-minded by requiring complex forms in triplicate to get anything done. Until, that is, you reach Asmodeus' court, where the highest bureaucrats hold constant networking events. That plus some Hellish flavor: I added some accursed souls who are shaped into "telephone booths," where you can go speak into a big fleshy receiver to get in touch with Hell Support, for instance, and sentient "buses" made of, you know, flesh and soul and stuff to transport low-ranking devils around. The buses are always blocking the box, though, and there's always someone sitting next to you, even if you can't see them.

Bohandas
2021-01-30, 01:27 AM
Stygia (and also Maladomini, Cania and Nessus)

I am grouping these four because they share the trait of being mostly empty wastelands, and I just got to ask why? Stygia is like the Arctic Ocean, Maladomini is all deserted cities, Cania is like Antarctica, and Nessus is a maze of pits. While I know there is a bit more than that going on, I still don't see the appeal.

Bonus: I got nothing.



Asmodeus' theme (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=GgnClrx8N2k)

BONUS
Dispater (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=w7eAvhSwdq0)

ezekielraiden
2021-01-30, 09:12 AM
In my campaign world, Hell is one portion of the parallel world called Ja'hannam (which also contains the Abyss; it's basically "all the lower planes.") This is an Arabian Nights styled world, so many things have pseudo-Arabic names.

As far as environment goes, the "Hell" portion of Ja'hannam is quite a bit more comfortable than most of the other parts of it...at least in a brute physical sense. It has properly-established cities, trade routes, guards, etc. Things are kept clean, crime is minimal to nonexistent. If you weren't told that it was Hell, you might mistake an empty nighttime plaza for being part of a safe and well-policed city anywhere in the mortal world, albeit with a rather unique sense of (austere) decoration.

Thing is, being in Hell isn't this "fire and brimstone" thing most people expect. That's the Abyssal part of Ja'hannam. And, in general, mortal souls don't go there OR to the Abyssal part; they pass beyond the circles of the world eventually, lingering (whether only briefly or for a long time) in the spirit-world, Al-Barzhak, that is the barrier between life and afterlife. No one knows what the actual afterlife is like, not for certain, for the One, the Great Architect, shrouds such knowledge from the living. Dead mortals only go to Ja'hannam if they have made foolish deals and screwed up (mortal souls really aren't that valuable in my Hells).

Instead, some living mortals do reside in Ja'hannam. Fewer than in the mortal world, but that's just because it's not a very hospitable place to live in general. The vast majority of the residents are what the priesthood calls "Servants," or rather, ex-servants. And in the case of those areas called "Hell," they are servants who did not break from the goal of the divine plan, just the restrictions on how that plan should be enforced. So they create places that are sturdy, safe, "prosperous" for a given definition thereof...and which are completely absent any real freedom or independence. Hell's cities are safe because disobedience is met with violent force or magical compulsion, because that is the kind of existence its devilish rulers fought and bled to be able to have. It is clean and orderly and sterile because that is what they think the divine plan was supposed to produce, a paradise where no one ever "suffers" (except by disobeying), or "wants" (except wanting freedom), or wishes ill (because they have no choice). As long as you live in a place far away from the battle-lines of the Blood War, Hell is one of the safest, securest, most placid places to live; some scholars and even meditative types have chosen to live there because they know that, as long as they play by the rules, they'll never have to leave. It's hard for mortals to get into Ja'hannam (and even harder to leave once there), but it has a certain twisted appeal.

If the devils had their way, all of reality would look like this--and because there would thus be no more demons and no more "regular" servants, they would finally make good on their promise of paradise: a place for everyone and everyone in their place, and never any misdeeds or wantonness or blemish, "perfection" everywhere just as the One desired. And all it would take is erasing the agency of any mortal that disagrees!

Bohandas
2021-02-03, 02:34 PM
When you arrive in Baator as one of many new lemures, you soon find yourself under the "care" of someone who lives to swing spiked chains. You might be herded to serve as cannon fodder in the Blood War, or be put on display in a soul marketplace.

Yeah, but Lemures aren't sentient. That's almost a mercy.


{Scrubbed} Per such "lore" approach, {scrubbed}a socialist country with state-run economy and army. Army is really important. There is a lot of opression {Scrubbed}, who inherited his powers from his predicessor.

Now this is exactky the kind of thing the Nine Hells should have more of. Not the original post mind you, the way the post is here where it looks like Friend Computer from Paranoia has gotten to it. Eveything is above your security cleatance and on a need-to-know basis.

In fact, now that I think of it, that's probably why the lemures are non-intelligent; they're so far down the heirarchy they're not permitted to know anything at all

Millstone85
2021-02-04, 09:52 AM
Yeah, but Lemures aren't sentient. That's almost a mercy.That seems to vary.

In 5e, it is clear that lemures are not only made from souls but are also still regarded as such.
The lowest form of devil, lemures are the twisted and tormented souls of evil and corrupted mortals.
Chain devils act as sadistic jailers and torturers in the infernal realms, relishing pain and living to inflict it on others. They are called on to torment mortal souls trapped in the Nine Hells, inflicting their sadistic fury on the horrid lemures in which those souls manifest.
On its arrival, each soul passes through the capital of Minauros, the Sinking City, and is recorded. The soul is then distributed to whoever should claim it, according to contracts in force and laws in effect. Mammon appropriates any extra lemures for himself and sells them for profit.
A lemure emerges from the Styx wiped of memory, yet the patterns of evil it performed in life remain indelibly inscribed upon its soul.

While lemures have an Int score of 1 (-5), the edition doesn't have any rule regarding that and sapience. Also, lemures understand Infernal. Even their inability to speak might be more physical than mental, in the style of I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream.
A lemure resembles a molten mass of flesh with a vaguely humanoid head and torso. A permanent expression of anguish twists across its face, its feeble mouth babbling even though it can't speak.

As I see it, it is you who arrive in Baator. Your new existence is as if your body was horribly flayed and you were drugged out of your mind, but it is still you. :smalleek:

Bohandas
2021-02-10, 11:02 PM
That seems to vary.

While lemures have an Int score of 1 (-5), the edition doesn't have any rule regarding that and sapience. Also, lemures understand Infernal. Even their inability to speak might be more physical than mental, in the style of I Have No Mouth, and I Must Scream.

Ah, ok, difference in editions. In 3.5e Lemures have no intelligence score and the "mindless" trait

hamishspence
2021-02-11, 01:58 AM
While lemures have an Int score of 1 (-5), the edition doesn't have any rule regarding that and sapience.

True, but as I recall, things that were mindless in past editions, like Animated Objects, are Int 1 in 5e. Reasonable to conclude that 5e's Int 1, is the equivalent of 3e's Int -.

Millstone85
2021-02-11, 05:00 AM
Reasonable to conclude that 5e's Int 1, is the equivalent of 3e's Int -.Maybe. But then it means that a lemure's understanding of Infernal is no more than a reaction to voice commands. And so, when a kyton tortures a lemure, it is really an angry kid throwing Siri at the wall.

Which is a bit too silly for my taste. It also considerably reduces the horror of the Hells.