Can't decide what pact to choose for my Celestial Warlock

[Ertwin]

I've got a level 2 Celestial Warlock, and we're playing Rhime of the Frost Maiden (no spoilers please)

Stats: (rolled real well)

Mountain Dwarf

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 14
CHA 18


I'm not sure which of the 4 pacts to get. I'm planning on not using Eldritch Blast at all if I can help it. Optimization is fine, but not necessary.

Backstory is he is an archeologist who made contact with a Coultyl named Savar trapped in the glacier, and started worshiping it. (calls himself a Cleric of Savar) As far as the other characters know, he is a cleric (the party is aware he's a warlock)

His primary goal is to free Savar, and also convert others to Savar worship.

The rest of the party includes

Tabaxi Barbarian
Goblin Monk
Tabaxi Wizard


Bonus: Best refluffing of Hunger of Hadar so that it does the same thing but has a more celestial flavour (can not change damage types or mechanical effects)

[Naanomi]

I like refluffing pixies into coure Eladrin, and thus having a literal angel on my shoulder

Tome is probably the more optimal choice overall

[RogueJK]

What kind of Wizard is the Tabaxi? Not just specifically subclass, but playstyle.

You could go Tome with Ritual Book and be the party's utility caster, if the Wizard doesn't already have that covered. Tome also lets you take some more Cleric cantrips like Guidance and Thaumaturgy, to get a little bit more of the Cleric/Divine Magic feel, plus something like Fire Bolt or Produce Flame to pair with Radiant Soul as your EB-substitute attack roll cantrip.

[sophontteks]

Because you are not going Eldritch blast, you don't need those EB invocations. The biggest downside of tome is the invocation tax. You need an invocation to get the most out of it.

Since this is not a problem, tome is the obvious choice.

[ftafp]

I've got a level 2 Celestial Warlock, and we're playing Rhime of the Frost Maiden (no spoilers please)

Stats: (rolled real well)

Mountain Dwarf

STR 12
DEX 14
CON 17
INT 15
WIS 14
CHA 18


I'm not sure which of the 4 pacts to get. I'm planning on not using Eldritch Blast at all if I can help it. Optimization is fine, but not necessary.

Backstory is he is an archeologist who made contact with a Coultyl named Savar trapped in the glacier, and started worshiping it. (calls himself a Cleric of Savar) As far as the other characters know, he is a cleric (the party is aware he's a warlock)

His primary goal is to free Savar, and also convert others to Savar worship.

The rest of the party includes

Tabaxi Barbarian
Goblin Monk
Tabaxi Wizard


Bonus: Best refluffing of Hunger of Hadar so that it does the same thing but has a more celestial flavour (can not change damage types or mechanical effects)

Pact of the Tome is usually the best option for a celestial warlock. You can get guidance and find familiar, which grant you most of the benefits of pact of the chain and pact of the talisman, and shillelagh which will let you avoid using eldritch blast and stick to Green Flame Blade. You can refluff it as the lore you've collected from your archaeological research

alternatively, if you want to try something more interesting take Pact of the Chain to get a baby coatl (pseudrodragon with the celestial type) as your familiar and take Investment of the Chain Master and Gift of the Everloving Ones. The former will let your dragon familiar attack twice a turn using your spell save dc for its poison effect (which can be boosted with a rod of the pact keeper), and the latter will make you significantly better at healing yourself with your healing ability. If you go with this option, try to get your pseudodragon a periapt of health, it will make it far more better able to survive in combat

[Verble]

I'd suggest tome. You can make good use of shillelagh and fill in any gaps on the party (guidance, minor illusion, vicious mockery).

[Ertwin]

Is there any particular reason why Shillelagh is superior to Shocking Grasp?

[P. G. Macer]

Is there any particular reason why Shillelagh is superior to Shocking Grasp?

You can combine Shillelagh with Green-Flame Blade, which is boosted by Radiant Soul.

[Lord Ruby34]

Tome is really cool, especially if you like wizardly flare.

What I'd do is go Tome, pick up Green-Flame Blade, Shillelagh, and the moderately armored feat. Fight in melee, and use sacred flame at range. You'll look like a particularly fiery cleric instead of a warlock to anyone who isn't familiar with the game mechanics.

As far as reflavoring Hunger of Hadar, it can be a bright white void in space filled with weird angels. The eyes within wheels type that mortals were never meant to gaze upon.

[Ertwin]

the moderately armored feat.

I'm a Mountain Dwarf, I already have medium armour


Greenflame Blade also seems kind of mediocre. All it does is do 4 damage to an adjacent creature.

[Lord Ruby34]

I'm a Mountain Dwarf, I already have medium armour


Greenflame Blade also seems kind of mediocre. All it does is do 4 damage to an adjacent creature.

Missed that, but you still might want to grab the feat, as the shield is really nice and your stats are already high. It's much less good for you than it would be for any other race though.

It's four more damage than you would do otherwise, and it gets better as you level. At level five it'll deal another 1d8 to each target, then at level six you can add your charisma damage one of the targets again because of radiant soul. At that point you'll be doing 2d8+8 to one target and 1d8+4 to another. It's not as good as the dedicated fighter, but then again, you're still primarily a caster, and its an excellent resource free action.

[Ertwin]

Missed that, but you still might want to grab the feat, as the shield is really nice and your stats are already high. It's much less good for you than it would be for any other race though.

It's four more damage than you would do otherwise, and it gets better as you level. At level five it'll deal another 1d8 to each target, then at level six you can add your charisma damage one of the targets again because of radiant soul. At that point you'll be doing 2d8+8 to one target and 1d8+4 to another. It's not as good as the dedicated fighter, but then again, you're still primarily a caster, and its an excellent resource free action.

Not quite resource free, as it would cost two cantrips to be effective. While I may have access to 5 cantrips at level 3, devoting nearly half of them to a single attack seems wasteful.


Edit: I also kind of want to spend my first ASI on evening out my odd stats rather than on a feat.

[Kane0]

If you’re passing yourself off as a cleric then pact of the Talisman makes for a perfect Holy Symbol

[ftafp]

Not quite resource free, as it would cost two cantrips to be effective. While I may have access to 5 cantrips at level 3, devoting nearly half of them to a single attack seems wasteful.


Edit: I also kind of want to spend my first ASI on evening out my odd stats rather than on a feat.

If you didn't want to just spam one cantrip every turn you kind of took the wrong class. The warlock's pitiful number of spell slots until level 11 means that unless you get a short or long rest after every single encounter most of the time you won't be able to do anything in combat except attack or cast a cantrip. There are feats you can take that will slightly offset this (fey touched being the best one IMHO), but primarily if you want more choices in combat as a warlock, your best option is to change classes at the first opportunity

[Lord Ruby34]

Not quite resource free, as it would cost two cantrips to be effective. While I may have access to 5 cantrips at level 3, devoting nearly half of them to a single attack seems wasteful.


Edit: I also kind of want to spend my first ASI on evening out my odd stats rather than on a feat.

Actually, as a Celestial Tome Warlock you would have seven, as you get Sacred Flame and Light for free. That would leave you three other free cantrips for utility, as you don't want to Eldrich blast. Way more than most casters of your level.

As far as evening out stats, I'd suggest Resilient Constitution. Flavorfully dwarfy, and will help you maintain concentration on your spells as well as protect against poisons, diseases, cold, and other various nasty things you might face. Your intelligence would stay odd, but a 16 isn't going to benefit you much more than a 15 anyway.

[Ertwin]

Actually, as a Celestial Tome Warlock you would have seven, as you get Sacred Flame and Light for free. That would leave you three other free cantrips for utility, as you don't want to Eldrich blast. Way more than most casters of your level.

As far as evening out stats, I'd suggest Resilient Constitution. Flavorfully dwarfy, and will help you maintain concentration on your spells as well as protect against poisons, diseases, cold, and other various nasty things you might face. Your intelligence would stay odd, but a 16 isn't going to benefit you much more than a 15 anyway.

Evening the stats is for three reasons:

1. I don't like having odd numbered ability scores.
2. Almost all my skills are knowledge skills.
3. As an adendum to 2, having a high INT makes sense for RP reasons.


@ftafp: I picked Warlock because I hate class abilities that are locked behind a long rest. I prefer classes that can do well with the least amount of prep or resources. So I usually flit between fighter, monk, and warlock for 5e. I have no problem with using a cantrip for most my actions, I was just questioning the wisdom of burning two cantrips in order to attack effectively in melee.

[ftafp]

I picked Warlock because I hate class abilities that are locked behind a long rest. I prefer classes that can do well with the least amount of prep or resources. So I usually flit between fighter, monk, and warlock for 5e. I have no problem with using a cantrip for most my actions, I was just questioning the wisdom of burning two cantrips in order to attack effectively in melee.

If that's the case, investing in shillelagh/green flame blade is probably the best choice fo you optimization-wise. Most cantrips just can't compete with EB in damage. GFB and BB can (or just taking an attack) but they don't use charisma, which with your stats is going to be crippling.

bear in mind that if you take pact of the tome, even with shillelagh, you'll have one more free cantrip from any spell list, and the alternative was having to invest your even more limited invocations in EB buffs

[Ertwin]

If that's the case, investing in shillelagh/green flame blade is probably the best choice fo you optimization-wise. Most cantrips just can't compete with EB in damage. GFB and BB can (or just taking an attack) but they don't use charisma, which with your stats is going to be crippling.

bear in mind that if you take pact of the tome, even with shillelagh, you'll have one more free cantrip from any spell list, and the alternative was having to invest your even more limited invocations in EB buffs

If I go tome, I'll probably have firebolt as my primary cantrip. No need to dash into melee with a monk and barbarian in the party. Especially since I'm our only healer.

So if I go tome, I'll probably have

Light, sacred flame,mage hand, mind sliver(replacing EB) Then tome would be Firebolt, spare the dying, ???

[Reynaert]

Pity about the 14 dex, i've had great experience with blade pact -> improved pact weapon -> lomgbow -> eldritch smite.

[Aett_Thorn]

So I am going to disagree with many of the others and say go Chain. Your party has melee and utility casting filled with the other characters, but you don’t have a scout in the party. Having an invisible familiar to go in ahead and either report back, or you just see what they see, can be a big help.

See if your DM will let you refluff an Imp as a flying snake that can turn invisible. Character lore-wise, this would make sense, and the poison barb is instead a bite. Nothing much needs to change.

[RogueJK]

So if I go tome, I'll probably have

Light, sacred flame,mage hand, mind sliver(replacing EB) Then tome would be Firebolt, spare the dying, ???

Take Guidance as your last cantrip choice. It's a very handy Cantrip for out of combat skill checks by members of your party, and fits the "Cleric-but-not-a-Cleric" theme well, drawing upon divine inspiration from your god/patron.

And I'd definitely skip Spare the Dying. You already have a better way to stabilize (and more) a dying party members in the Cure Wounds spell or especially your Celestial Warlock Healing Light. Spending a Bonus Action for Healing Light to get them back awake with a little HP (akin to Healing Word) is a way better option than spending your entire Action just to keep them unconscious but no longer dying. Besides, you can just have a Healer's Kit on hand for occasional emergencies where you don't have a spell slot or Healing Light use left, since it does the exact same thing as Spare the Dying, where you're spending your Action for a Touch-range stabilization without costing a spell slot or ability use. As a result, there's no reason to waste a cantrip pick on Spare the Dying, or to waste an action on casting Spare the Dying. It's one of the worst/most redundant cantrips in the game.

Instead of Spare the Dying, take something utilitarian like Message, Mending, Minor Illusion, Prestidigitation, Thaumaturgy, etc.

[da newt]

Perhaps I'm missing something, but it sounds like your plan is to use Firebolt as your primary attack while staying at range, and save both of your spell slots for healing - is that right? What spells do you plan to use in combat most often?



W/ SF as your goto attack cantrip, IF you go chain your familiar can HELP others attack w/ ADV, and a reskinned IMP is very handy IMO, but Tome is also a good choice for utility.

I'd think Res CON would be a more useful Feat than +1 con +1 Int, but I'd max CHA first.

A 1 lvl dip for life cleric might be a good idea too - shield prof, extra healing, more spell slots, spells known and cantrips ...

[Pex]

You can cheat and get three out of the four (no Totem Talisman from Tasha) by going Tome. With Tome, you can get Shillelagh and Booming Blade to feel like Blade. You can also get Find Familiar to feel like Chain. They're not perfect matches, but you're decent in melee when you need and have a suitable scout as is common for familiar use.

[Kane0]

Sorry I didnt mention before, Talisman works well as a supportive mechanic like Clerics are known for and you dont have in the party currently.

[Mercurias]

I really like Tome, personally, and I've previously used Shillelagh on a Cleric and gotten a LOT of use from it, but if you don't then more power to you! :D

If you already have a Wizard to be the utility caster, also, then I can certainly see you picking an alternative pact, and Chain Warlocks are a lot of fun! I'd nab an imp and use it to gather information or relay your words, then play up the "Divine Knowledge" angle. Maybe even hide the familiar from the party IC for a while just to make yourself seem more powerful and mysterious.

I'd personally still use Eldritch Blast, simply because it's that good of a cantrip when paired with Hex and Agonizing Blast, but I also get the desire to go for roleplay over pure power, so I hope what you DO pick works for you! :D

[Snivlem]

One vote for pact of the chain. It has the best synergy with your subclass and your party.

I don't get the desire to spam firebolt instead of EB al all. If you find EB boring, firebolt will be equally boring, but less effective. If you wanted to make some weapon build work i'd get it, but having firebolt instead of eb as your default attack on a warlock seems pointless.

[Pex]

To help make Eldritch Blast more interesting get Repelling Blast invocation. Pushing your opponent is a big deal. You can push them into a hazard: natural, artificial, or spell. You can push them away from a party member who can move on his turn without provoking an opportunity attack. The direction you attack from becomes important, so it gives you a strategy to deal with in combat which is the fun.

[RogueJK]

I don't get the desire to spam firebolt instead of EB al all. If you find EB boring, firebolt will be equally boring, but less effective. If you wanted to make some weapon build work i'd get it, but having firebolt instead of eb as your default attack on a warlock seems pointless.

I can understand the desire to play an EB-less Warlock. Especially if you just got done playing an EB Warlock recently.

And it doesn't necessarily mean merely swapping spamming EB for spamming Fire Bolt. He's planning to have at least 3 different attack cantrips (Mind Sliver, Sacred Flame, and Fire Bolt), all of which do different things.

If you pick EB, EB will basically always be the "optimal" choice, and it's hard to go with anything else. If you remove that from the equation, now you may feel you're more free to choose between various other "less optimal" cantrips, as the situation dictates.

Removing EB also frees up your Invocations for other things, since you're not compelled to take the "Invocation Tax" of Agonizing Blast and possibly Repelling Blast.


Having more options is a good thing. And with Radiant Soul, he's not hamstringing himself too much compared to EB, damage wise.

[Ertwin]

One vote for pact of the chain. It has the best synergy with your subclass and your party.

I don't get the desire to spam firebolt instead of EB al all. If you find EB boring, firebolt will be equally boring, but less effective. If you wanted to make some weapon build work i'd get it, but having firebolt instead of eb as your default attack on a warlock seems pointless.

Basically what RogueJK said. I want to use my limited invocations for other things, like devil's sight, eyes of the runekeeper, beguiling presence. As is I can't get that 3rd one until level 5.

I think I've settled on Tome

For cantrips, I'm going Light, Sacred Flame, Mage hand, Mind Sliver, Firebolt, guidance, shocking grasp


Thank-you all for your suggestions, even the ones I rejected out of hand.

[Kane0]

Beguiling Influence is fantastic if you're functioning as the party face, you can probably skip Eyes of the Rune Keeper if you're going to be picking up rituals (comprehend languages overlaps quite a bit). Mask of Many Faces and Misty Visions are typically really good Invocs too but don't really sound like they fit the character, perhaps Thief of Five Fates if you can convince the DM to add Bane as a spell known and/or make the casting not use a spell slot once per Long Rest? It is a cleric spell and not a bad one.

If you're going for a disguised-as-a-priest sort of shtick Thaumaturgy might be a good cantrip actually, replacing Mage Hand?

[KorvinStarmast]

Pact of the Tome is usually the best option for a celestial warlock. Agreed. Make sure to get Find Familiar as a ritual spell at 3rd. Handy, that spell is.

[Ertwin]

Is this a bad time to mention that our wizard already has a familiar?

[Gignere]

Is this a bad time to mention that our wizard already has a familiar?

Great it means you can learn the ritual from him instead of wasting a pick on it. You can’t have enough familiars so no redundancy.