Abusing Level Loss - Creating Master List

[MR_Anderson]

This thread is designed to identify and list ways to abuse level loss through means that are permanent.

This is something that I had not really pondered before this evening, and I haven’t been able to find anything about abusing Level loss.

One of my players and I were discussing his path to level 20 and realized he is wide open on feats, but lacked the available levels to acquire really anything more from classes. He wanted to do 10 levels in Contemplative prestige class so he could gain the Mystic Union Supernatural Ability.

His class is dual caster Arcane and Divine, and I realized that once Mystic Union is gained that he could lose all levels in Contemplative and retain that ability.

So the question I have is...

What classes give abilities, items, remove normal characteristics, or otherwise provide something to a character that are not lost when a character loses all levels in that class?

I run a cap of level 20 +1. The +1 is for saved xp to burn on casting high level spells, item creation, or protection vs drain. Level 20 is the hard cap, but I am a very lenient DM when it comes to interpretation, as the group has been playing together since 1st edition, and it is more for fun and guys getting together. I say this, because as it reads I would also allow a former contemplative to also retain the Eternal Body ability, because it removes a characteristic, not adding something additional.

What are your thoughts on other ways I can help him abuse item creation?


-CLASSES & OTHER MEANS TO ABUSE LEVEL LOSS-

Classes
Contemplative
Divine Disciple
Green Star Adept
Incantifier
Tainted Sorcerer
Tainted Warrior
Dragon Disciple
Anointed Knight
Risen Martyr
Initiate of Pistis Sophia
Swanmay
Elemental Savant
Wildrunner
Thrall of Kostchtchie
Acolyte of the Skin
Alienist
Shadowcrafter
Troubadour of Stars
Thrall of Zuggtomy
Darkwater Knight
Master of Many Forms
Mindbender
Blood Magus
Effigy Master
Artificer


Other Abuses

Thought Bottle will allow a complete character respec with two bottles!!!


Thought Bottle: A flask of thick green glass, a thought bottle can be used to store thoughts, memories, experience, or spells. A single bottle can hold five thoughts or memories at a time, or a single creature's current experience, or a single spellcaster's collection of prepared spells. Any individual that toches the bottle and speaks the command word instantly gains a general knowledge of the bottle's contents, but doesn't actually access the thoughts, memories, or spells within until she consciously decides to do so. Storing or retrieving anything from a thought bottle requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Thoughts: The bottle can store specific ideas, communications, or conclusions. Once a memory is stored, it disappears from the user's mind, but she remembers the general nature of the stored thought. For example, if the user stored the name of a murderer, that name would disappear from her memory and be unrecoverable from her own mind by any means, though she would know that the thought bottle now contains the murderer's name. Similarly, secret messages and intelligence can be hidden in a thought bottle to pass them to someone else.

Memories: The user's recollection of a single day's events can be stored in the bottle. Once stored, the user remembers the general nature of the memory ("the day we performed the Ritual of Binding") but loses all details of the event itself.

Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Inculding levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently acess the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any level loss in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (Deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored the experience can retrive it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.

Spells: An owner who prepares spells can store some or all of her memorized spells in a thought bottle. Any spell she puts into the thought bottle is expended as if she had cast it, but the spells in the bottle can then be retrived at any later date to be prepared as normal. Wizards often use this function of thebttole to create a kind of backup spellbook, concealing thought bottles in well hidden boltholes against the eventuality of their grimoires being stolen or destroyed. Only the character who stored the spells can retrieve them, and if the bottle is destroyed, the stored spells are lost with no effect.

Strong Enchantment; CL13th; Craft Wondrous Item; demmand, modify memory; Price 20,000gp; Weight 1lb.

Restoration after drained levels.
Feat: Spell Mastery

[Darg]

Losing a level is like you never leveled up in the first place. This includes Mystic Union as is a special class ability (the special column of the class table). Even if you kept the forevermore clause, the only benefit retained would be the outsider classification for spells and effects.


Level Loss

A character who loses a level instantly loses one Hit Die. The character’s base attack bonus, base saving throw bonuses, and special class abilities are now reduced to the new, lower level. Likewise, the character loses any ability score gain, skill ranks, and any feat associated with the level (if applicable). If the exact ability score or skill ranks increased from a level now lost is unknown (or the player has forgotten), lose 1 point from the highest ability score or ranks from the highest-ranked skills. If a familiar or companion creature has abilities tied to a character who has lost a level, the creature’s abilities are adjusted to fit the character’s new level.

The victim’s experience point total is immediately set to the midpoint of the previous level.

[MR_Anderson]

Losing a level is like you never leveled up in the first place. This includes Mystic Union as is a special class ability (the special column of the class table). Even if you kept the forevermore clause, the only benefit retained would be the outsider classification for spells and effects.

That’s my point, when a character gains a transformation like Contemplative or Divine Disciple I will argue that such a change is permanent. Green Star Adapt & Incantifier are transformative processes and they too would not be undone by level loss. If such a transformation could be undone by level loss, it would undermine the transformation.

As stated I am lenient so anything with a clause or a removal of a characteristic would also remain, as to handling of the level loss while still maintaining the effects, leave that up to me, I’ll work it out. I’m just looking for things similar to these.

Thanks for the assistance!

[Anthrowhale]

Dragon #302 has Tainted Sorcerer / Tainted Warrior which have the explicit ability to be lost on level drain instead of the last level taken. Even in a game where prerequisites for all prestige classes are constantly enforced, a character could potentially take one of these classes, then take something else, then lose levels from these classes while effectively maintaining all prerequisites based on skills, BAB, or feats.

[MR_Anderson]

Dragon #302 has Tainted Sorcerer / Tainted Warrior which have the explicit ability to be lost on level drain instead of the last level taken. Even in a game where prerequisites for all prestige classes are constantly enforced, a character could potentially take one of these classes, then take something else, then lose levels from these classes while effectively maintaining all prerequisites based on skills, BAB, or feats.

It took me awhile to find it, but say you took Tainted Sorcerer at 6th level and a feat called “abc“ but at level 12 you took a feat “xyz” and before you reached level 13, you were drained.

I would say you could lose a level in Tainted Sorcerer that you took at level 6, but you would lose feat “xyz” because your character level fell below level 12, right?

It is interesting, thank you for the suggestion.

[Anthrowhale]

It took me awhile to find it, but say you took Tainted Sorcerer at 6th level and a feat called “abc“ but at level 12 you took a feat “xyz” and before you reached level 13, you were drained.

I would say you could lose a level in Tainted Sorcerer that you took at level 6, but you would lose feat “xyz” because your character level fell below level 12, right?

Yes. Feats are a property of level, not class.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

There are other permanent benefits you can gain from losing levels that aren't class-related. Abusing restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) and a thought bottle allows you to gain those permanent benefits without permanently losing your levels. In fact, you can use it to gain levels.

Gain a template with LA and/or racial HD that can be removed under the right conditions, such as lycanthropy (possibly via Complete Divine's curse of lycanthropy spell), take at least one negative level, purposefully fail your saves on the negative levels to take permanent level drain, then get a restoration to reset your XP total to your lycanthropic state (plus 50% up to your next level). Store your XP total in the thought bottle, then cure the lycanthropy. Retrieve your XP total from the thought bottle to gain all that XP back from all the levels of lycanthropy you just lost, but without regaining the lycanthropy. Re-store your XP total in the thought bottle. Start spending XP on crafting, or on bloodline levels, or on buying off LA, or on Sculpt Self abilities, or on spellcasting, or on whatever else you plan on using. Then retrieve your XP total once again.

Not only did you not lose XP from your starting point, but you gained a whole bunch of crafting (or whatever) and are several levels higher than where you started! And it's repeatable!

[MR_Anderson]

There are other permanent benefits you can gain from losing levels that aren't class-related. Abusing restoration (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/restoration.htm) and a thought bottle allows you to gain those permanent benefits without permanently losing your levels. In fact, you can use it to gain levels.

Gain a template with LA and/or racial HD that can be removed under the right conditions, such as lycanthropy (possibly via Complete Divine's curse of lycanthropy spell), take at least one negative level, purposefully fail your saves on the negative levels to take permanent level drain, then get a restoration to reset your XP total to your lycanthropic state (plus 50% up to your next level). Store your XP total in the thought bottle, then cure the lycanthropy. Retrieve your XP total from the thought bottle to gain all that XP back from all the levels of lycanthropy you just lost, but without regaining the lycanthropy. Re-store your XP total in the thought bottle. Start spending XP on crafting, or on bloodline levels, or on buying off LA, or on Sculpt Self abilities, or on spellcasting, or on whatever else you plan on using. Then retrieve your XP total once again.

Not only did you not lose XP from your starting point, but you gained a whole bunch of crafting (or whatever) and are several levels higher than where you started! And it's repeatable!

While this isn’t a permanent change to a character, this is more abusive than I needed.



Thought Bottle: A flask of thick green glass, a thought bottle can be used to store thoughts, memories, experience, or spells. A single bottle can hold five thoughts or memories at a time, or a single creature's current experience, or a single spellcaster's collection of prepared spells. Any individual that toches the bottle and speaks the command word instantly gains a general knowledge of the bottle's contents, but doesn't actually access the thoughts, memories, or spells within until she consciously decides to do so. Storing or retrieving anything from a thought bottle requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Thoughts: The bottle can store specific ideas, communications, or conclusions. Once a memory is stored, it disappears from the user's mind, but she remembers the general nature of the stored thought. For example, if the user stored the name of a murderer, that name would disappear from her memory and be unrecoverable from her own mind by any means, though she would know that the thought bottle now contains the murderer's name. Similarly, secret messages and intelligence can be hidden in a thought bottle to pass them to someone else.

Memories: The user's recollection of a single day's events can be stored in the bottle. Once stored, the user remembers the general nature of the memory ("the day we performed the Ritual of Binding") but loses all details of the event itself.

Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Inculding levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently acess the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any level loss in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (Deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored the experience can retrive it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.

Spells: An owner who prepares spells can store some or all of her memorized spells in a thought bottle. Any spell she puts into the thought bottle is expended as if she had cast it, but the spells in the bottle can then be retrived at any later date to be prepared as normal. Wizards often use this function of thebttole to create a kind of backup spellbook, concealing thought bottles in well hidden boltholes against the eventuality of their grimoires being stolen or destroyed. Only the character who stored the spells can retrieve them, and if the bottle is destroyed, the stored spells are lost with no effect.

Strong Enchantment; CL13th; Craft Wondrous Item; demmand, modify memory; Price 20,000gp; Weight 1lb.


The item restores a character to a specific quantified XP total up or down!!!

This means with at least two bottles, a character can set say a level 1 bottle and a level 20 bottle, then proceed to remove about 190,000 xp, and then add it back, taking levels, skills, and feats as needed in classes best for whatever the adventure calls for.

This was not what I was asking for, but this will not only allow the character to immediately change his classes, but also give me a weapon to drain the whole party and reset the adventure and drain them of many levels in one fell swoop from people who they think are helping them.

Thank you for such a suggestion!

[MaxiDuRaritry]

While this isn’t a permanent change to a character, this is more abusive than I needed.



Thought Bottle: A flask of thick green glass, a thought bottle can be used to store thoughts, memories, experience, or spells. A single bottle can hold five thoughts or memories at a time, or a single creature's current experience, or a single spellcaster's collection of prepared spells. Any individual that toches the bottle and speaks the command word instantly gains a general knowledge of the bottle's contents, but doesn't actually access the thoughts, memories, or spells within until she consciously decides to do so. Storing or retrieving anything from a thought bottle requires a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity.

Thoughts: The bottle can store specific ideas, communications, or conclusions. Once a memory is stored, it disappears from the user's mind, but she remembers the general nature of the stored thought. For example, if the user stored the name of a murderer, that name would disappear from her memory and be unrecoverable from her own mind by any means, though she would know that the thought bottle now contains the murderer's name. Similarly, secret messages and intelligence can be hidden in a thought bottle to pass them to someone else.

Memories: The user's recollection of a single day's events can be stored in the bottle. Once stored, the user remembers the general nature of the memory ("the day we performed the Ritual of Binding") but loses all details of the event itself.

Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even a restoration can't undo (Inculding levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user's experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently acess the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any level loss in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (Deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored the experience can retrive it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.

Spells: An owner who prepares spells can store some or all of her memorized spells in a thought bottle. Any spell she puts into the thought bottle is expended as if she had cast it, but the spells in the bottle can then be retrived at any later date to be prepared as normal. Wizards often use this function of thebttole to create a kind of backup spellbook, concealing thought bottles in well hidden boltholes against the eventuality of their grimoires being stolen or destroyed. Only the character who stored the spells can retrieve them, and if the bottle is destroyed, the stored spells are lost with no effect.

Strong Enchantment; CL13th; Craft Wondrous Item; demmand, modify memory; Price 20,000gp; Weight 1lb.


The item restores a character to a specific quantified XP total up or down!!!

This means with at least two bottles, a character can set say a level 1 bottle and a level 20 bottle, then proceed to remove about 190,000 xp, and then add it back, taking levels, skills, and feats as needed in classes best for whatever the adventure calls for.

This was not what I was asking for, but this will not only allow the character to immediately change his classes, but also give me a weapon to drain the whole party and reset the adventure and drain them of many levels in one fell swoop from people who they think are helping them.

Thank you for such a suggestion!It might be interesting to have an adventure that requires you to alternate thought bottles to go to different areas, acting like portkeys of sorts, or portals. One area is the high level area and the other is the low level area, and you have to swap between them to progress through.

[MR_Anderson]

It might be interesting to have an adventure that requires you to alternate thought bottles to go to different areas, acting like portkeys of sorts, or portals. One area is the high level area and the other is the low level area, and you have to swap between them to progress through.

I was thinking something like that, or a split party with a low level group having to go through one section while a higher level group goes through the other section, and action levers open gates for the other squad.

They had a similar dungeon like that in Asheron’s Call back in the day for the Virindi Amulet.

I was also thinking of a magic ritual that a villain could use as the excess xp was washed away.

This beats the idea of crafting for 3,375 days to burn all that xp.

[Darg]

Thought Bottle abuse doesn't work if "previous level" means level before last level up. Lycanthropy doesn't increase your experience and therefore doesn't advance your level. The character is simply given HD. HD are only counted as levels for spells or effects. Meaning that while your ECL may be higher, your actual level is much lower. HD=/Level. The RC says this, "A victim who loses a level loses the most recent level gained." That level would be your class level as your racial HD are not levels. As this is stated in the RC after level loss can cause a creature to lose a level or HD, levels are lost before HD. If you had a 3rd level fighter who became a werebear, he would have 9 HD and and an ECL of 12. The most recent level gained would be 3rd level fighter. The RC also says that the "victim's experience point total is set to the midpoint of the previous level." The midpoint of the previous level was 2000 xp.

I'm not going to argue over it, just wanted to point out a non-abusable interpretation of the rules. Also, while Thought Bottle allows you to store your XP total it is still the experiences you have experienced up to that point. Meaning if you stored 19 levels of wizard it restores you to a 19th level wizard with the same feats, skill ranks, HD rolls, etc. It doesn't say you can rebuild your character.


To the OP, are you looking for wording that makes changes permanent or you loosely qualifying general changes? Contemplative has a part that mentions it's permanent; while divine disciple, incantifier, greenstar adept, etc. mention nothing of the sort. Dragon Disciple is another one if the later.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thought Bottle abuse doesn't work if "previous level" means level before last level up. Lycanthropy doesn't increase your experience and therefore doesn't advance your level. The character is simply given HD. HD are only counted as levels for spells or effects. Meaning that while your ECL may be higher, your actual level is much lower. HD=/Level. The RC says this, "A victim who loses a level loses the most recent level gained." That level would be your class level as your racial HD are not levels. As this is stated in the RC after level loss can cause a creature to lose a level or HD, levels are lost before HD. If you had a 3rd level fighter who became a werebear, he would have 9 HD and and an ECL of 12. The most recent level gained would be 3rd level fighter. The RC also says that the "victim's experience point total is set to the midpoint of the previous level." The midpoint of the previous level was 2000 xp.

I'm not going to argue over it, just wanted to point out a non-abusable interpretation of the rules. Also, while Thought Bottle allows you to store your XP total it is still the experiences you have experienced up to that point. Meaning if you stored 19 levels of wizard it restores you to a 19th level wizard with the same feats, skill ranks, HD rolls, etc. It doesn't say you can rebuild your character.The mechanics of the thought bottle and how they work with restoration work exactly how you don't want them to, I'm happy to say. You store your XP total and then restore that total later. It's nothing to do with levels themselves, at least not directly, aside from mentioning that as a result of how the item manipulates XP totals that you can restore lost levels.


Experience: A thought bottle can be used to offset level loss as a restoration spell can, but is effective against level loss that even restoration can’t undo (including levels lost due to death, but not the negative levels bestowed by magic items such as a holy weapon). When a user’s experience has been stored within the bottle, he can subsequently access the bottle to restore his XP total to exactly what it was when it was last stored, negating any levels lost in the interim. Storing experience in the bottle is difficult, and the user must pay 500 XP (deducted before storing) to do so. Only the creature that stored experience can retrieve it, but if the bottle is destroyed or lost, the user suffers no ill effects.

[MR_Anderson]

To the OP, are you looking for wording that makes changes permanent or you loosely qualifying general changes? Contemplative has a part that mentions it's permanent; while divine disciple, incantifier, greenstar adept, etc. mention nothing of the sort. Dragon Disciple is another one if the later.

If it says permanent I would certainly accept it.

If it removes something from a previous class, race, or normal D&D characteristic, I would consider it. For example: removing the aging effects could or could not be permanent, where as removing the need for food or air would return if it was just a normal class feature, but if it was a transformative process like Incantifier it would be permanent.

If it is other loosely qualifying changes not stated as permanent, but suggest that it is, as Green Star Adept has abilities tied to the Prestige Class Levels and other Abilities tied to the rituals, then I will consider it.

Your suggestion of Dragon Disciple is exactly one of these. There is a transformation taking place, and it becomes permanent upon reaching the 10th level of the prestige class. I would argue that losing any levels before 10 would cause a slow reverse in the transformation until nothing remained, but if a character made it to level 10, everything would remain that is attached to the transformation.

Thank you for mentioning this one!

[Darg]

Your suggestion of Dragon Disciple is exactly one of these. There is a transformation taking place, and it becomes permanent upon reaching the 10th level of the prestige class. I would argue that losing any levels before 10 would cause a slow reverse in the transformation until nothing remained, but if a character made it to level 10, everything would remain that is attached to the transformation.

Thank you for mentioning this one!

The best part of Dragon Disciple is that the class features are untyped just as the half dragon traits are. Meaning by RAW they stack once you hit level 10 (dragon disciple needs it tbh).

Anointed Knight gets the benefits of its oils permanently. The oils are supernatural abilities and are therefore impossible to remove on their weapon without annihilating the weapon (sundering the weapon wouldn't remove the oils and neither would repairing the weapon). It's the most abusable class I can think of.
Risen Martyr gains the deathless type (undead that is subject to energy drain and therefore level loss). Once you lose your risen martyr levels, you are no longer bound by the "must progress as risen martyr" clause.
Swanmay changes to Fey
Initiate of Pistis Sophia changes to outsider.

[MR_Anderson]

The best part of Dragon Disciple is that the class features are untyped just as the half dragon traits are. Meaning by RAW they stack once you hit level 10 (dragon disciple needs it tbh).

Anointed Knight gets the benefits of its oils permanently. The oils are supernatural abilities and are therefore impossible to remove on their weapon without annihilating the weapon (sundering the weapon wouldn't remove the oils and neither would repairing the weapon). It's the most abusable class I can think of.
Risen Martyr gains the deathless type (undead that is subject to energy drain and therefore level loss). Once you lose your risen martyr levels, you are no longer bound by the "must progress as risen martyr" clause.
Swanmay changes to Fey
Initiate of Pistis Sophia changes to outsider.

I was aware of Swanmay and some others, that reminded me to add them.

Anointed Knight is amazing, and I think I am going to suggest that path to another one of my players, as he will be introduced to his dead father’s ancestral blade, who was a hero of the kingdom.

As for Risen Martyr, it has two clause that need to be overcome...

1) “Special: The character must have suffered martyrdom (see Chapter 2) and must not have been returned to life. As a special feature of this prestige class, the character rises with the abilities of a 0-level risen martyr added to the character's previous abilities. When the character earns enough experience points to advance another level, he must become a 1st-level risen martyr.”

2) “A risen martyr cannot advance in any class other than risen martyr in order to delay his final ascension. Once he rises and adopts this prestige class, he must continue to gain risen martyr levels and no levels in any other class.“

This means that someone who becomes a Risen Martyr, would need to gain a level to become a 1st-level Risen Martyr before draining away levels, to meet the first clause.

The real question is, can we remove the Deathless Type without Resurrection or True Resurrection? That way the character gets an upgrade to D12’s as its HD. The Resurrection spells will cause a reversion of the Deathless type. The down side of the Deathless type is the ability to be outright destroyed.

Thanks for the continued contributions!

[MR_Anderson]

I am still looking for more, any assistance is appreciated.

[Darg]

Not a type change or anything, but a mindbender gets permanent charm and a single permanent dominate (based entirely on size, one baleful polymorph is all it takes to bring even colossal creatures under your thumb).

A blood magus can get a 6 HD homunculus (HD advancement doesn't reverse) and a permanent one time +2 bonus to Con.

Effigy Master gets a permanent link to their effigy and can give a permanent bonus to some rolls to their effigy.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How many classes gain free (or practically free) magic items upon taking a certain level? Because you could take a bunch of levels in, say, artificer, craft a ton of items, store your XP in a thought bottle, gain a bunch of negative levels, wait until they're permanent, restore your XP, and gain levels in something else, keeping all the items you made in the process.

[Darg]

How many classes gain free (or practically free) magic items upon taking a certain level? Because you could take a bunch of levels in, say, artificer, craft a ton of items, store your XP in a thought bottle, gain a bunch of negative levels, wait until they're permanent, restore your XP, and gain levels in something else, keeping all the items you made in the process.

Isn't there a feat that gives you extra stored crafting XP? Taking 2 levels in chameleon would let you exploit it for infinite crafting experience.

[MR_Anderson]

Not a type change or anything, but a mindbender gets permanent charm and a single permanent dominate (based entirely on size, one baleful polymorph is all it takes to bring even colossal creatures under your thumb).

A blood magus can get a 6 HD homunculus (HD advancement doesn't reverse) and a permanent one time +2 bonus to Con.

Effigy Master gets a permanent link to their effigy and can give a permanent bonus to some rolls to their effigy.

Mindbender could make a Permanent Thrall, but the ability to make a new one or just to charm/dominate people would be lost if the class was lost.

Blood Magus & Effigy Master both work as stated, but I would add a permanent -1 Hit Point to the Blood Magus as well because it pays for the Homunculus.

These are great Darg, almost like a one man adventuring party if we find more classes.


How many classes gain free (or practically free) magic items upon taking a certain level? Because you could take a bunch of levels in, say, artificer, craft a ton of items, store your XP in a thought bottle, gain a bunch of negative levels, wait until they're permanent, restore your XP, and gain levels in something else, keeping all the items you made in the process.

We have the Anointed Knight, but with additional creatures or companions adding additional item would also be an advantage, all permanent bonus will be added to the list.

The Artificer could take advantage of these items as well, but the Homunculus or multiples of them would be permanent. The use of magic items to build up the reserve xp is interesting, but I’ve always felt the gold was the limitation of crafting.

Appreciate bring up the Artificer class.

[MR_Anderson]

Isn't there a feat that gives you extra stored crafting XP? Taking 2 levels in chameleon would let you exploit it for infinite crafting experience.

I have been trying to find how this works, can you explain in detail?

[Darg]

I don't remember the name of the feat, but chameleon at second level gives you a floating feat that you can switch out every day. When you take the feat it gives you a craft reserve just like an artificer's. So on day one take the feat. Day 2 take another feat. Day 3 repick the original feat. And so on.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

I don't remember the name of the feat, but chameleon at second level gives you a floating feat that you can switch out every day. When you take the feat it gives you a craft reserve just like an artificer's. So on day one take the feat. Day 2 take another feat. Day 3 repick the original feat. And so on.I've never heard of that feat, and I would've, on these boards. Because that is really flippin' powerful. You sure it's not 3rd party?

Leadership gives you minions to craft, so gain temporary levels, such as taking the lycanthrope template, as well as the bard's inspire greatness, abuse the benefits to Leadership by making your minions craft, then lose the lycanthropy and the inspire greatness would then reset your minions to normal.

[Darg]

I've never heard of that feat, and I would've, on these boards. Because that is really flippin' powerful. You sure it's not 3rd party?

It might be. I know it isn't homebrew. It's not a whole lot of extra craft reserve normally and is only gained every time you get the feat. The way I remember reading it is that you would have to spend the craft reserve to benefit again anyways. Psionic talent is even more broken increasing your pp by up to 182 per year.

[MR_Anderson]

Adding the Feat “Spell Mastery” to the list.

It is effectively possible for a wizard to add every spell he has in his spell book to this list as the effect is permanent and taking the feat has no effect after it has been taken.

By making this feat a selected feat, repetitive level loss and restoration would be extra helpful to any spell book class.

[Crake]

Adding the Feat “Spell Mastery” to the list.

It is effectively possible for a wizard to add every spell he has in his spell book to this list as the effect is permanent and taking the feat has no effect after it has been taken.

By making this feat a selected feat, repetitive level loss and restoration would be extra helpful to any spell book class.

What makes you think that getting rid of spell mastery allows you to continue gaining it's benefit? It pretty clearly states "Without this feat, you must use a spellbook to prepare all your spells, except read magic. " If you don't have the feat, you can't prepare the spells without your spellbook, like, that's plain and simple.

[Thurbane]

Don't know if this is helpful: Type Change by Class, Spell & Feat (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620526)

[Peelee]

The Mod on the Silver Mountain: Level loss is a pure Necromancy.