What's Up With Catapult?

[Gale]

Upon rereading the text for Catapult today I noticed it said the item you wish to "catapult" can't be worn or carried, by anyone, including yourself. This seems odd to me as supplying your own ammunition for the spell feels like an obvious, intended use. Sure you might be able to fling a rock laying on the ground instead, but I can imagine you may easily find yourself in a place with no viable objects to catapult nearby, such as the middle of a grassy field.

So, it seems the best method of use is to carry around a sack of rocks, or something cheap like whetstones, then draw and drop one of them onto the ground each time you want to cast Catapult. This definitely works, but it feels unusual that a common level 1 spell would require such a setup, and somehow I don't feel this his was how the spell was intended to be used.

I've also heard some people suggest catapulting something like Alchemist Fire or Acid vials at people, but this seems like a tricky venture if you can't be carrying them as you cast Catapult. You probably can't just draw and drop a flask of Alchemist Fire without expecting it to shatter in front of you. (Although, that's definitely debatable.) You could carefully place them on the ground, but that feels like it would take a proper Action to do so, and taking two turns to catapult Alchemist Fire/Acid at someone might not be worth it.

So, what's up with Catapult? Why is it worded so you can't easily catapult any of your own items? Is it to try and hamper attempts to catapult things like Alchemist Fire at people? Would it be too good if you could catapult items from your own hands?

[Mr Adventurer]

I've noticed that, it is weird. Maybe set up by casting Tender's Floating Disk and lining up your alchemist fire on it like a home bar?

[sithlordnergal]

Well, you do have a free Item Interaction to pull out a flask, and you might be able to set it down with that same interaction. That said, whenever I build around Catapult, I always take three levels of Thief Rogue for Fast Hands

[Segev]

Drop the item as part of casting the spell, such that it flies off mid-fall?

Though this strikes me as a case for DMs to rule on.

[TheCleverGuy]

Provided the initiative works out, you could set up a combo move with your Battle Master ally. The BM makes the enemy goblin drop their scimitar with a Disarming Strike maneuver, then you cast Catapult to launch the dropped weapon back at the goblin, pointy end first.

[Mr Adventurer]

Provided the initiative works out, you could set up a combo move with your Battle Master ally. The BM makes the enemy goblin drop their scimitar with a Disarming Strike maneuver, then you cast Catapult to launch the dropped weapon back at the goblin, pointy end first.

Now that's team play! Fantastic stuff. I'm going to obsessively check with every Battlemaster to see if they have that manoeuvre if I'm playing a spellcaster. Hmm, or maybe a multiclass Sorcerer with a gimmick...

The best thing? This also works with any enemy's weapon, like the BBEG blackguard's demon sword...

[Segev]

Now that's team play! Fantastic stuff. I'm going to obsessively check with every Battlemaster to see if they have that manoeuvre if I'm playing a spellcaster. Hmm, or maybe a multiclass Sorcerer with a gimmick...

The best thing? This also works with any enemy's weapon, like the BBEG blackguard's demon sword...

To do it by yourself (which is less cool than doing it with your ally), you could multiclass fighter(battlemaster)/wizard(bladesinger) and ... er, no, never mind. Catapult isn't a cantrip, so my thought of using the level six extra attack feature from Bladesinger doesn't work as well as I'd hoped.

[AttilatheYeon]

To do it by yourself (which is less cool than doing it with your ally), you could multiclass fighter(battlemaster)/wizard(bladesinger) and ... er, no, never mind. Catapult isn't a cantrip, so my thought of using the level six extra attack feature from Bladesinger doesn't work as well as I'd hoped.

Sorcerer/battlemaster does tho.

[Gale]

Is there a reason to catapult enemies' weapons at them? Or is it just for style points?

[Luccan]

I think it's worded that way to avoid the Alchemist's Fire/Acid combo, at least without more investment than a single spell/action. Similarly, they probably don't want you to use your magical weapons to fuel the spell... but nothing actually prevents that, except that you'd need to drop it first.

Notably, if you did use it on Alchemist's Fire or Acid, if your opponent made their save, the vial would actually be carried past them until it went 90ft or hit something else in that line. Worth considering even if your DM lets you use your object interaction to toss a vial into the air before casting the spell.

Edit: And dead enemies dropping weapons will probably be your most consistent way to find an appropriate object.

[SteadyAim]

To do it by yourself (which is less cool than doing it with your ally), you could multiclass fighter(battlemaster)/wizard(bladesinger) and ... er, no, never mind. Catapult isn't a cantrip, so my thought of using the level six extra attack feature from Bladesinger doesn't work as well as I'd hoped.

Gust works.

Quicken Catapult works. Battlemaster / Sorc 2 (Metamagic Adept)/ Bladesinger 6 is great foundation for midrange build.

Gust + (bonus action) Unseen Servant as a relay race works.

Telekinetic Feat works.

[JackPhoenix]

Similarly, they probably don't want you to use your magical weapons to fuel the spell...

They already did that when they've noted the object also takes damage. Unless you really don't like your weapon.... 3d8 damage is enough to reliably destroy most weapons (who are generally small or smaller, and even if they count as resilient objects, that's only 3d6 HP. Medium resilient object, like greatsword, has 4d8 hp, so it can propably survive). The damage from spell is magical, so it ignores the damage resistance magic items have.

[Battlebooze]

I don't think they are worried about you using acid vials and other interesting materials.

I'm fairly sure they just don't want Catapult to be targeted at the enemies weapons and items, as in "I Catapult the sword that bandit 2 is using, towards bandit 3."

[AttilatheYeon]

Cast Unseen Servant. Have it carry around your vials of acid/alchemist fire/etc. Then you can just cast Catapult with no issues.

[Mr Adventurer]

Is there a reason to catapult enemies' weapons at them? Or is it just for style points?

They might have an interesting weapon and your DM agrees they are triggered on the target as though they had been attacked by it (e.g. flaming, +2d6 damage; or something more exotic).

Edit: plus apparently it might destroy the weapon

[Avonar]

Is there a reason to catapult enemies' weapons at them? Or is it just for style points?

Best use would be to catapult it at a different enemy. Deal the damage and prevent them easily getting the weapon back.

[Darc_Vader]

Best use would be to catapult it at a different enemy. Deal the damage and prevent them easily getting the weapon back.

Even using it on the same enemy that dropped it has some appeal: if it hits, great; if they make the save, then their weapon is now potentially far enough away that it would take 3 turns of dashing to get it and get back into the fight if they don’t want to just fight you bare handed (assuming no backup weapons at least).

[micahaphone]

What's the RAW on gently tossing an item up and catching it in your hand?

https://external-content.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=https%3A%2F%2Fthumbs.dreamstime.com%2Fb%2Fhand-tossing-red-apple-air-54463517.jpg&f=1&nofb=1

[Mastikator]

To do it by yourself (which is less cool than doing it with your ally), you could multiclass fighter(battlemaster)/wizard(bladesinger) and ... er, no, never mind. Catapult isn't a cantrip, so my thought of using the level six extra attack feature from Bladesinger doesn't work as well as I'd hoped.

No need to multiclass, just pick up magic initiate and use action surge. Straight fighter gets it done.

[Segev]

No need to multiclass, just pick up magic initiate and use action surge. Straight fighter gets it done.

I suppose, but a 1/rest thing is a lot less than I was aiming for with my initial thought on the matter.

And I still think the battlemaster + caster team working it is better.

[Vogie]

Yeah, you could certainly throw flasks, but you could just as easily use the armor/weapons of dead foes, use a brick or branch dislodged by a fireball, or drop something using your item interaction - that could be one of your spare weapons, an unused shield, et cetera. Most casters carry around a dagger, and being able to drop it on the ground then hurl it akimbo towards a target potentially doing 3d8+ damage.

Three other things that Catapult are fairly unique:

it's a way to deal damage to objects (both the object and what it strikes take damage) before Shatter
It doesn't actually have to target a creature - you're merely choosing an object and a direction, thus allowing you to create distractions, or remove incredibly easily
the Components are merely Somatic.
The benefit of the latter is fantastically important. First, it's a completely silent spell without using any metamagic effects, either by feats or class features. It's a spell you can cast while in a Silence effect, both the Silence spell and the occasional Wild Magic Bubble-mouth.

[DwarfFighter]

Cast Unseen Servant. Have it carry around your vials of acid/alchemist fire/etc. Then you can just cast Catapult with no issues.

Items that are "not carried" is key here. So the UnServ bringing a chair along is just extra steps with no added effect.

Anyway, it's not a bad 1st level spell. I like that it interacts with the environment - under the right circumstances moving an item across the encounter space can be huge, an it has utility beyond just combat. Have you considered how hard it is to throw a grappling hook 30 meters upwards? You can pick up things within 20 meters and bring them to you or another party member. You can manipulate the "hurl" distance to bypass the reciprocal impact damage.

If you are in an area where there are ZERO loose objects to catapult... Well, that should be a pretty rare situation that is rectified by you or any companion simply dropping a disposable item.

-DF

[DwarfFighter]

What's the RAW on gently tossing an item up and catching it in your hand?

RAW? It is literally the DM's discretion.

[Mitchellnotes]

Wait... can you catapult an orb of annihilation?

[Quaryon]

Anyway, it's not a bad 1st level spell. I like that it interacts with the environment - under the right circumstances moving an item across the encounter space can be huge, an it has utility beyond just combat. Have you considered how hard it is to throw a grappling hook 30 meters upwards? You can pick up things within 20 meters and bring them to you or another party member. You can manipulate the "hurl" distance to bypass the reciprocal impact damage.

This! Being able to instantly displace an object from 60ft away can be huge. The Witch King’s Totem of a Thousand Dooms? Yoink! The giant diamond on a pedestal all the way across a trapped floor? It’s on this side now! There’s a ton of utility.

As for acid flasks, I’d rule that simply pulling out and letting go of or aimlessly tossing an item uses up your object interaction, and you can immediately Catapult it. It’s not gamebreaking by any means.

Also—the spell text says “The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet” so I wonder if you can actually set the maximum distance when you cast it. Compare to other spells with similar language. You could potentially have the jail cell keys fly across the room into the air two feet from your face, then drop harmlessly to the ground or into your palm.

[Randel]

So, what's up with Catapult? Why is it worded so you can't easily catapult any of your own items? Is it to try and hamper attempts to catapult things like Alchemist Fire at people? Would it be too good if you could catapult items from your own hands?

Part of me suspects that one reason you can't catapult carried or worn items would be to keep you from targeting someone's shoes to trip them up, or a gnome spellcaster from casting Reduce on themself and then Catapult on their clothes to launch themselves somewhere. (gnomes weigh around 40 lbs, Reduce turns your weight to one eighth of normal, so even if a tiny gnome and their clothes only weighted 10 lbs total, they could still potentially cast catapult on themself if that restriction wasn't in place).

Basically, I think the whole thing about it being unable to target held or worn items is there to preemptively keep players from catapulting people around or other shenanigans.

[Segev]

Part of me suspects that one reason you can't catapult carried or worn items would be to keep you from targeting someone's shoes to trip them up, or a gnome spellcaster from casting Reduce on themself and then Catapult on their clothes to launch themselves somewhere. (gnomes weigh around 40 lbs, Reduce turns your weight to one eighth of normal, so even if a tiny gnome and their clothes only weighted 10 lbs total, they could still potentially cast catapult on themself if that restriction wasn't in place).

Basically, I think the whole thing about it being unable to target held or worn items is there to preemptively keep players from catapulting people around or other shenanigans.
My thought on it was to prevent disarming opponents or stealing things with it. But you raise good points, too. I’ll point out that the reduced-weight gnome could be holding the rope attached to the grappling hook that is the hurled target, though.

[Luccan]

The real tragedy is even if the restriction on items were removed you still couldn't use it to punt the party's Halfling Barbarian across the battlefield without a pointless amount of setup or expending too high a spell slot.

[Mr Adventurer]

Also—the spell text says “The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet” so I wonder if you can actually set the maximum distance when you cast it. Compare to other spells with similar language. You could potentially have the jail cell keys fly across the room into the air two feet from your face, then drop harmlessly to the ground or into your palm.

Good spot! That's useful.

[ProsecutorGodot]

The damage from spell is magical, so it ignores the damage resistance magic items have.

Just to nitpick here, nowhere did it say that anything overcomes the resistance magic items have to damage, their resistance is to all damage, no notes of any kind bypassing that.

Still, I'm sure it's something many tables forget to account for when using the spell with weapons, magical or otherwise.

[sithlordnergal]

This! Being able to instantly displace an object from 60ft away can be huge. The Witch King’s Totem of a Thousand Dooms? Yoink! The giant diamond on a pedestal all the way across a trapped floor? It’s on this side now! There’s a ton of utility.

Also—the spell text says “The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet” so I wonder if you can actually set the maximum distance when you cast it. Compare to other spells with similar language. You could potentially have the jail cell keys fly across the room into the air two feet from your face, then drop harmlessly to the ground or into your palm.

I...actually did the diamond thing once. I was playing an AL game where you had to steal a skull from some female Demon, I forget the exact name of the module. However, my party was a bit...inept. The DM kept handing us hooks in order to get the heist going, but the party kept screwing it up by being polite and/or not wanting to cause trouble. We helped console a Demon having GF troubles, got a rude gnome kicked out, helped a sick guy feel better...all good things and all potential distractions gone.

So we were on the verge of failing the quest when I finally sighed and said "That skull...how big is it? How much does it weigh?" Dm shrugged and said "About 15 to 20 pounds and its Large...why?"

I looked at the door, noticed there was a straight line between the outside and the skull and told the party to get by the door and be ready to run on my signal.

They asked what the signal was gonna be, and I told them "Don't worry, you won't miss it.", and once everyone was in place I cast Catapult...on the skull we needed to steal. Sent it flying out the door to the shock of literally everyone and we booked it.

Also, I always run it, and seen it run, as you choose how far the object flies.

[JackPhoenix]

Just to nitpick here, nowhere did it say that anything overcomes the resistance magic items have to damage, their resistance is to all damage, no notes of any kind bypassing that.

Still, I'm sure it's something many tables forget to account for when using the spell with weapons, magical or otherwise.

Ah, thanks for correcting me. I went from memory and assumed it's the usual resistance to non-magical damage.

[XmonkTad]

I...actually did the diamond thing once... Sent it flying out the door to the shock of literally everyone and we booked it.

This story makes me very happy. Catapult has always been one of my favorite spells, but I can't say I've ever used it that well. I would also note my favorite use of catapult is still to launch a sack of flour at an invisible enemy.

[Sigreid]

I'm guessing the intent is that the item can't be restrained in any way, i.e. strapped to you or in your grip and that's the way I'd enforce it. Your DM may vary.

[Segev]

I...actually did the diamond thing once. I was playing an AL game where you had to steal a skull from some female Demon, I forget the exact name of the module. However, my party was a bit...inept. The DM kept handing us hooks in order to get the heist going, but the party kept screwing it up by being polite and/or not wanting to cause trouble. We helped console a Demon having GF troubles, got a rude gnome kicked out, helped a sick guy feel better...all good things and all potential distractions gone.

So we were on the verge of failing the quest when I finally sighed and said "That skull...how big is it? How much does it weigh?" Dm shrugged and said "About 15 to 20 pounds and its Large...why?"

I looked at the door, noticed there was a straight line between the outside and the skull and told the party to get by the door and be ready to run on my signal.

They asked what the signal was gonna be, and I told them "Don't worry, you won't miss it.", and once everyone was in place I cast Catapult...on the skull we needed to steal. Sent it flying out the door to the shock of literally everyone and we booked it.

Also, I always run it, and seen it run, as you choose how far the object flies.

I love this story. I assume you used a fourth-level spell slot to cover up to twenty pounds. Maybe third and risked it? Either way, this reminded me of the upcasting use it has, and is a cool use of the spell.

[sithlordnergal]

I love this story. I assume you used a fourth-level spell slot to cover up to twenty pounds. Maybe third and risked it? Either way, this reminded me of the upcasting use it has, and is a cool use of the spell.

I left nothing to chance. I was level 16, and used a 5th level spell. XD The DM and party thought it was amazing

[Segev]

I left nothing to chance. I was level 16, and used a 5th level spell. XD The DM and party thought it was amazing

Didn't have telekinesis? Or just thought this was cooler? Either way, the fact that the "up to 90 feet" distance is not based on the fact it can hit things early, but is its own knob you can twiddle, is something I'd overlooked until this thread. So thanks for helping point that out to me.

[sithlordnergal]

Didn't have telekinesis? Or just thought this was cooler? Either way, the fact that the "up to 90 feet" distance is not based on the fact it can hit things early, but is its own knob you can twiddle, is something I'd overlooked until this thread. So thanks for helping point that out to me.

I didn't have Telekinesis prepared for the day, plus it was a cooler way to get it out the door. XD And yeah, its pretty useful to be able to choose how far it goes.

[Tanarii]

Didn't have telekinesis? Or just thought this was cooler? Either way, the fact that the "up to 90 feet" distance is not based on the fact it can hit things early, but is its own knob you can twiddle, is something I'd overlooked until this thread. So thanks for helping point that out to me.

Not how I interpret it. It reads to me that it goes up to 90ft unless it strikes an object, per the sentence in question. The caster can't stop it early. Then the next couple of sentences add an additional condition for it stopping if it successfully strikes a creature.

[Segev]

Not how I interpret it. It reads to me that it goes up to 90ft unless it strikes an object, per the sentence in question. The caster can't stop it early. Then the next couple of sentences add an additional condition for it stopping if it successfully strikes a creature.

I'll quote the exact wording here for discussion:


The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet in a direction you choose before falling to the ground, stopping early if it impacts against a solid surface.

I do see where you're coming from. It could be that the phrase following the comma indicates the sole condition under which it stops early. However, in that case, the following says the same thing:


The object flies in a straight line 90 feet in a direction you choose before falling to the ground, stopping early if it impacts against a solid surface.

The clause about "stopping early" includes all necessary text to allow that hitting something stops it before it reaches 90 feet.

Further, the following is a complete sentence in and of itself:


The object flies in a straight line up to 90 feet in a direction you choose before falling to the ground.

Would you agree with me when I say that this sentence would permit the caster to choose any distance up to 90 feet to have the object fly, stopping at whatever distance the caster named?

I think the first clause, which is a complete sentence by itself, must be read as complete, with the post-comma clause adding additional stipulations, not with it specifying a limiting condition on the only way that it can fly less than 90 feet. I base this on the fact that reading the post-comma phrase as providing the sole condition under which it can fly less than 90 feet rendering the words "up to" redundant in the first clause, and the fact that the modification represented by the post-comma clause says nothing about restricting the object to stopping early only when the condition is met.

...further more, "stopping early" means that it can be told to fly 50 feet, and still impact a solid surface 20 feet out and stop early. Nothing in the text suggests that any distance shorter than 90 feet is "stopping early." "Stopping early" is stopping before the distance "up to 90 feet" is reached.

Now, I won't fault any DM for ruling otherwise, but this seems the most literal reading of the RAW to me.

[Tanarii]

If it meant it to be a choice, it would use something like "choose up to 90ft"

[ProsecutorGodot]

If it meant it to be a choice, it would use something like "choose up to 90ft"

So you would also say that Telekinesis has no fine control if you choose to use it to move objects and can only do so in increments of 30ft? What about Spiritual Weapon? What about Bigby's Hand?

I'm of the opinion that "up to" is the choice option. I've certainly never seen someone say that a Spiritual Weapon must move 20ft before it can check for targets within 5ft or that Bigby's Hand must move 60ft.

The best comparison though, is Flaming Sphere. It can move 30ft or stops if it collides with something.