Wizard dip - WM or BS?

[sayaijin]

With Tasha's changes to Bladesinger (still not sure if nerf or buff), which is the better two-level wizard dip in general - Bladesinger or War Magic?
Also, which is better for an Arcane Trickster specifically?

[The_Jette]

Is it too cliche to say I'd dip into Illusionist with an Arcane Trickster?

[Gignere]

With Tasha's changes to Bladesinger (still not sure if nerf or buff), which is the better two-level wizard dip in general - Bladesinger or War Magic?
Also, which is better for an Arcane Trickster specifically?

If it is just 2 levels probably war wizard is the better dip.

[JackPhoenix]

As the number of uses for Bladesong increases with your proficiency bonus, it scales even if you don't take more wizard levels. On the other hand, its effectiveness depends on how high you'll push your Int. It also limits the equipment you can use without ending the Bladesong. The weapon proficiency may give you access to finessable weapon rogue isn't already proficient with, like whip or scimitar.

For the War Wizard, the initiative bonus will be of use in every combat you'll get into, but it again depends on how high your Int will be. The save bonus is great, as rogue doesn't rely on spells for combat, the AC bonus less so, as you'll likely have Shield, which is better both in effect and duration (but with limited number of uses), and even without it, rogue already has a reaction ability to halve the damage they'll take in Uncanny Dodge.

If you want to fight at range, or get proficiency in better armor (and/or shield), War Wizard is clearly better, otherwise, they are different, but rather evenly matched.

[Witty Username]

I would guess War Mage, Arcane deflection is really good if you don't need to cast spells much given that it is essentially +2 AC and +4 to saves all the time if you have 6 sec between crisis.

[Mr Adventurer]

If you want to go to Wizard 6 then I would definitely say Bladesinger, the Extra Attack enhancement makes getting your Arcane Trickster signature Mage Hand out and about even easier. However that's quite a lot of investment.

[SteadyAim]

How much does your build value +10 movement prof/day for 1 minute? For mobility builds that is a sure take.

[Gignere]

How much does your build value +10 movement prof/day for 1 minute? For mobility builds that is a sure take.

It takes a bonus action to bring up the plus ten if you needed mobility you can move an extra 30 feet as a rogue as a bonus action. It’s not quite as good on a rogue.

[sayaijin]

Great thoughts on here. I was asking partially from a general multiclassing perspective, but also for my character.

This Arcane Trickster was built for roleplay more than optimization, but there's a decent chance he'll have the opportunity to study as a Wizard for a few levels, so I thought I'd at least consider optimization when choosing the story.

Rolled for stats and DM have a racial feat for free at level 1. At level 4 I boosted Dex to 20

Forest Gnome
Level 4 Arcane Trickster
7 Str
20 Dex
9 Con (again, story)
17 Int
14 Wis
7 Cha
13 San (sanity)

Party has an Abjurer, Valor Bard, Devotion Paladin, and Gloomstalker Ranger. Since there's a paladin, I was leaning towards Bladesinger because I don't need the saving throw help as much, and the Abjurer means I don't have to dip.

[Gignere]

With only 9 con, I definitely recommend the War Wizard over Bladesinger, you need to stay at range. But that defeats the purpose of Bladesong, since most range weapons require two hands.

[SteadyAim]

Make sure to cast False Life and get your AC up real high. With a 9 Con you need all the virtual HP you can get.

[Valmark]

Great thoughts on here. I was asking partially from a general multiclassing perspective, but also for my character.

This Arcane Trickster was built for roleplay more than optimization, but there's a decent chance he'll have the opportunity to study as a Wizard for a few levels, so I thought I'd at least consider optimization when choosing the story.

Rolled for stats and DM have a racial feat for free at level 1. At level 4 I boosted Dex to 20

Forest Gnome
Level 4 Arcane Trickster
7 Str
20 Dex
9 Con (again, story)
17 Int
14 Wis
7 Cha
13 San (sanity)

Party has an Abjurer, Valor Bard, Devotion Paladin, and Gloomstalker Ranger. Since there's a paladin, I was leaning towards Bladesinger because I don't need the saving throw help as much, and the Abjurer means I don't have to dip.

What's your chosen weapon?

Personally I'd lean on BS if you are usin a one-handed weapon. A reaction buff to AC or Saving Throw in a single istance is hardly worth it past a certain point (a multiattacking creature will hardly care) and you already have a good Initiarive.

Meanwhile BS will give you +3 AC for a... Minute I think? 2 times a day, more at higher levels (character levels, not BS levels). It also gives you more proficiency and give you more speed although that is of arguable usefulness on a rogue.
It also would give advantage on Acrobatics checks and Concentration saves, but I don't think that'll be overly useful to you.

[SteadyAim]

What's your chosen weapon?

Personally I'd lean on BS if you are usin a one-handed weapon. A reaction buff to AC or Saving Throw in a single istance is hardly worth it past a certain point (a multiattacking creature will hardly care) and you already have a good Initiarive.

Meanwhile BS will give you +3 AC for a... Minute I think? 2 times a day, more at higher levels (character levels, not BS levels). It also gives you more proficiency and give you more speed although that is of arguable usefulness on a rogue.
It also would give advantage on Acrobatics checks and Concentration saves, but I don't think that'll be overly useful to you.

I agree with this man's advice.

[Gignere]

What's your chosen weapon?

Personally I'd lean on BS if you are usin a one-handed weapon. A reaction buff to AC or Saving Throw in a single istance is hardly worth it past a certain point (a multiattacking creature will hardly care) and you already have a good Initiarive.

Meanwhile BS will give you +3 AC for a... Minute I think? 2 times a day, more at higher levels (character levels, not BS levels). It also gives you more proficiency and give you more speed although that is of arguable usefulness on a rogue.
It also would give advantage on Acrobatics checks and Concentration saves, but I don't think that'll be overly useful to you.

I disagree it’s a gnome so even with the +10, that’s only 35 feet of movement. That’s not even enough to get out of trouble consistently. With a 9 con the character should be nowhere near melee where an errant critical will ruin the day.

Need to stay at range where it is less dangerous, and having even better initiative is great for positioning especially for an archer type that will get spell ambusher.

Once spell ambusher comes into play going first can mean encounters are ended with one spell. Ambushed hypnotic pattern at a 28 initiative or more if the DM allows gift of alacrity.

[JackPhoenix]

Agreed. With the listed character, I'd take WM, use a bow or crosswow to keep my distance, enjoy the initiative bonus and use the +4 on saves/+2 AC whenever something dangerous (and/or Con-based) comes my way.

[Ir0ns0ul]

The main deal is that Rogues have really bad saving throws. DEX is the worst one (only prevents damage), CON and WIS have nasty effects which you are not proficient and not focused. That’s why I value War Wizard’s Arcane Deflection so much for Rogues. You’ll be probably using Booming Blade all the time, so no anti-synergy here.

BS is good, but let’s be fair, the only benefit it provides to an AT is AC. +2 / +3. If you have an odd DEX, you can get better AC just selecting Moderately Armored feat (Iron Rogue?).

I would only prioritize BS over War Wizard if the campaign was high-level to perhaps reach level 6 and get Extra Attack. But once again, going 6 levels of Wizard is not a dip, it’s a full progression that most campaigns don’t make the cut.

[sayaijin]

What's your chosen weapon?

Personally I'd lean on BS if you are usin a one-handed weapon. A reaction buff to AC or Saving Throw in a single istance is hardly worth it past a certain point (a multiattacking creature will hardly care) and you already have a good Initiarive.

Meanwhile BS will give you +3 AC for a... Minute I think? 2 times a day, more at higher levels (character levels, not BS levels). It also gives you more proficiency and give you more speed although that is of arguable usefulness on a rogue.
It also would give advantage on Acrobatics checks and Concentration saves, but I don't think that'll be overly useful to you.

Short sword - booming blade (lots of disengages).

When story started, DM implied that our characters would likely die a lot. In reality, combats have been dangerous, but seldom. We had three consecutive sessions recently with no combat.

BS does sound the right choice. I was leaning that way, just wanted to confirm.

[Gignere]

Short sword - booming blade (lots of disengages).

When story started, DM implied that our characters would likely die a lot. In reality, combats have been dangerous, but seldom. We had three consecutive sessions recently with no combat.

BS does increase the chances of landing sneak attack. I was leaning that way, just wanted to confirm.

Not sure what you mean by BS increase the chances of landing sneak attack. BS has nothing inherent to landing sneak attack unless you only have a melee weapon and don’t have a range backup weapon.

I am currently playing an AT and I have both ranged and melee options. With steady aim you should have no trouble landing sneak attacks at range. Makes for a really good switch hitter. If you’re going to melee that much you should consider BS 6 and maybe beg your DM for an amulet of health.

[Valmark]

I disagree it’s a gnome so even with the +10, that’s only 35 feet of movement. That’s not even enough to get out of trouble consistently. With a 9 con the character should be nowhere near melee where an errant critical will ruin the day.

Need to stay at range where it is less dangerous, and having even better initiative is great for positioning especially for an archer type that will get spell ambusher.

Once spell ambusher comes into play going first can mean encounters are ended with one spell. Ambushed hypnotic pattern at a 28 initiative or more if the DM allows gift of alacrity.
I mean... It's better then most creatures without particular mobility and it makes you go from subpar speed to slightly above average, I would say that's better on a gnome (also should point out I did state I'm not sure how useful it is on a rogue in any case).

And I did ask for the chosen weapon for a reason.

Short sword - booming blade (lots of disengages).

When story started, DM implied that our characters would likely die a lot. In reality, combats have been dangerous, but seldom. We had three consecutive sessions recently with no combat.

BS does sound the right choice. I was leaning that way, just wanted to confirm.
Yes, this sounds ideal for the BS. If you were at range WW would be the better choice (or if you wore medium+ armor or a shield) and the fights don't sound too threatening.

Keep in mind a round used to turn Bladesong on is a round you don't Cunning Action Disengage.

[sayaijin]

Not sure what you mean by BS increase the chances of landing sneak attack. BS has nothing inherent to landing sneak attack unless you only have a melee weapon and don’t have a range backup weapon.

I am currently playing an AT and I have both ranged and melee options. With steady aim you should have no trouble landing sneak attacks at range. Makes for a really good switch hitter. If you’re going to melee that much you should consider BS 6 and maybe beg your DM for an amulet of health.

Yeah, I realized that it was unlikely for me to do a full 6 levels, so I edited my statement to say that BS sounded better.