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Jimbob
2007-11-06, 09:32 AM
Hello all,

A minor problem im having coming up with an idea for my conjurer for an up coming campagin.

I have not rolled stats yet, but i already know i want to be a human wizard conjurer with the UA variant for rapid summoning.
So my first question is, what 2 schools of magic to have as my prohibated schools? Now i was thinking Necromancy and evocation. The reason behind evocation is that i have orb spells from the SC which are conjuration spells. So because of this i was thinking of taking point blank shot and percise shot.
But then i got thinking about boosting my summoned creatures and this is also were i got stuck, any feats that i can take to increase abilites and duration of the spell?

Thanks in advanced :smallsmile:

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 09:37 AM
Metamagics, of course.

The school problem is a bigger issue, though. I'd say you should bye-bye enchantment, it never seemed to be too useful. I'd be wary of saying bye to Evo, since it has the ever useful contingency and other nice utilities, and your DM might say you can't replicate 'em with shadow spells. Plus, Evo has the Maw of Chaos, I think, which was a VERY neat spell, so you should consider disallowing something else. And don't even think of killing Necromancy. You need it, you crave it, you should love it, and necrophilia ain't neat. There MUST be something else you can sacrifice, but if you're forced to do it, discard Evo over Necromancy.

Rad
2007-11-06, 09:41 AM
You can usually boost creatures with your spells; on the feat side the standard vanilla seems to be augment summoning, but 2 feats is expensive.
BTW, 2 feats into archery for your orbs are probably a waste; metamagic, PrC requirements and general good wizard feats abound and are better than the ones you mentioned. Remember that the fighter will probably be better at doing damage, plus it is his job; try to do those things that only you can do (even buffing the fighter).
The two banned schools look good; remember that Evocation has a few nice non-damage spells (Contingency, Wind Wall, Forcecage); you can do them with Shadow Evocation later on though.

Jimbob
2007-11-06, 09:43 AM
Well this is the problem. There are lots of spells that I like from each school, its just a case of finding the ones i use the lease. Ive looks at enchantment and I think your right, that is a school that can easily out of all of them be dropped. And your very right necromancy can not be dropped becasue of one reason - ray of emfeeblement!! god dam I love that spell. So what about Abjuration? are there any spells that will be missed that much???

And yeah I had thought about metamagic, but i was thinking more of things like, augment summong, but then is taking spell focus conjuration really worth it??

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 09:45 AM
I'd definitely pick Evo as my first school to discard. Contingency and Wind wall are nice... but you can work without them.

Necromancy is rather hard to live without- it just has too many nice little evil spells of doom (especially ones that leech stats of others. So much nice stuff there).

Personally, I'd recommend dropping Enchantment. It's not fun to lose, but as you're focusing on summoning creatures, turning enemy creatures to your side may or may not be as needed. Dropping them out in combat can be done in other ways (necromancy and illusion) and out of combat you can use your summons to do your bidding. It may hurt in social situations, but not as much if you've got someone with good Bluff/Diplomacy skills.

Definitely don't drop Illusion if you drop Evocation. If can help you make up for it with the Shadow ____ line of spells.

Those are my thoughts.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 09:49 AM
No. Augment summoning is the biggest trap since Divine. Don't take it, lest you suffer well and plenty.

Spell focus is not worth it, usually, specially not for a relatively save-or-die/lose less school. I'd do something else, like metamagics, or the like.

Now, of course you shouldn't ban necro. It's too valuable, what with rays, touches, and even the occasional Figner of Death. All in all, enchantment and Evo seem like the ones that hurt the least. I'd take those.

WHA? Wanna drop abjur?! You're plain crazy. Two words: Dispel. Magic.

Abjur is perhaps the second most valuable school. Banning it is a tremendous hit to you.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 09:50 AM
I agree with Vael

Ditch Evo and Enchantment. Necromancy is too good to lose. Enchanment has nothing you need. Evo is going to be replicated by everything else.

Jimbob
2007-11-06, 09:56 AM
Your right dispel magic, cant lose that, so its looking like Enc and Evo at the moment.

So one final question, any good PcR's for summoners out there, or should I go another route if any when i get to level x?? open to all ideas here, please quote books just so i know. Or if some one has come up with a good build that would be cool also.

cheers once again, all been a massive help =)

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 09:57 AM
Maybe a Thaumaturge fits the concept, but they suck. Maybe a Malconvoker would fit?

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 09:57 AM
No. Augment summoning is the biggest trap since Divine. Don't take it, lest you suffer well and plenty.

You did see the part where he said he was going to be a Conjuror right? Augment Summoning is full of win.

In fact jimbob should take the Enhanced Summoning varient from UA as well and get Augment Summoning, for free, and take Focus (Conj) anyway. Why? It's a requirement for Imbued Summoning. Then you need Extend Spell as well, and you are good to go. At 10th level you have a character who can drop a critter with +6 STR/CON and have a beneficial spell equipped on him as you cast him.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 10:02 AM
You KNOW What +6 STR and CON does, I presume? +3 to hit in melee and damage, and +3 HP per HD. Not exactly stellar for 2 or 3 FEATS. Moreso considering some PrC's do what those feats do, but better. Augment is simply too ineffective, it consumes a third of your feats for minor bonuses.

Seriously, how many monsters will you summon per battle? One, two at most? Is it worth it to summon a critter who'll be there for a little while, and expend a third of what might be your most precious resource to slightly pimp it up?

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 10:04 AM
Summoner PrCs?
Hmmm...
Well, if you want you can drop into the Master Specialist PrC. I mean seriously, you can get into it so fast...
That would possibly be one way to help out.

I think the Alienist has some summoning abilities, but I don't have Complete Arcane on me right now, so I can't remember if they are any good or not.
Otherwise, I'm not sure there are really any good PrCs specifically for conjuration out there. None immediately come to mind, at least.

Archmage has some things that can be handy for anyone, of course. For a conjurer, Arcane Reach would be helpful (buff creatures / allies in combat without getting close) along with Spellpower (extra caster level? YES) and Mastery of Shaping (hitting my allies? What hitting of my allies? *shape*)

Fatespinner, while normally good, wouldn't do you in particular much use (as you're more focusing on things that don't require saves).
Hmmm... I might add more thoughts later.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 10:23 AM
You KNOW What +6 STR and CON does, I presume? +3 to hit in melee and damage, and +3 HP per HD. Not exactly stellar for 2 or 3 FEATS. Moreso considering some PrC's do what those feats do, but better. Augment is simply too ineffective, it consumes a third of your feats for minor bonuses.

Seriously, how many monsters will you summon per battle? One, two at most? Is it worth it to summon a critter who'll be there for a little while, and expend a third of what might be your most precious resource to slightly pimp it up?

Yeah, you are right. Why bother improving the thing your character is focusing on, when instead he could be putting his feats into Skill Focus (Basketweaving).

I don't know about you, but my summoners summon a lot more than 1 or 2 critters per battle. I usually summon lower level monsters and get a lot more of them, to tie the enemy force up while the rest of the party deals with other stuff.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 10:29 AM
Answer to your idea: Gate a Balor and be done with it. Summoning small critters is a waste, because they take more slots and take longer to kill the enemy. Just summon a big bad thing and thrash the enemy.

And yeah, Augment and it's chain sucks, period. I never said metamagics weren't plausible, though. A maximized X buff could be tremendously useful for your critty, as would be an Extended summon or a summon made persistent.

Jimbob
2007-11-06, 10:31 AM
And the variants from UA do not tie up any feats, so that is defo a good way to go me thinks because all you lose for both is the ability to gain a familiar and lose your bonus feats at every 5th level, but gain a massive boost for the summoned creatures. Can you just clear up for me please what Imbued Summoning does and where this can be found please.

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 10:33 AM
Well lets see what the Batman guide said on the feat.


-Augment Summoning: if you're summoning regularly, you're doing something wrong. That's the druid's or cleric's job; after all, every time a wizard casts a spell that's on a divine list, for that round he's a sucker. Don't take this.

Hmmmm...
>>
So apparently we've been discussing suckers.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 10:35 AM
Sorta. Gating a Titan or Balor is still extremely satisfying.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 10:55 AM
It's a Metamagic feat, one spell slot higher. From PH II. Basically you can cast any touch range spell of up to 3rd level on the creature as it's being summoned.

There's also Beckon the Frozen, from Frostburn. Same requirements as Imbued Summon (Augment Summoning, Focus (Conj)) it adds a d6 cold damage to your critters attacks and they gain the cold subtype. It doesn't have to gain this ability, you choose at the time of summoning.

Then there is the Summon Elemental reserve Feat. As long as you have a summoning spell held, you can summon elementals. Free Elementals. Yay. It also gives you +1 Caster level for Conjuration (summoning) spells.


Answer to your idea: Gate a Balor and be done with it. Summoning small critters is a waste, because they take more slots and take longer to kill the enemy. Just summon a big bad thing and thrash the enemy.

Call me stupid, but sometimes I play characters that aren't 18th level. *shrug*

Sometimes my characters even have to start off at... 1st level! *waits for gasping to die down*

I know it's the hip new thing to design your character from 20th level and work your way backwards, but that doesn't always work.

Also, he said he wanted a Summoner - not Batman. I usually assume a person wants to play a Summoner for 1 of 3 reasons (or a combo of those 3)

1. The DM doesn't like Batman Wizards and wants the PC to be calm and not frag his game.

2. The player really just likes the notion of a Summoner and thinks it's cool.

3. The party already has a Batman or Nova so their role in the party is left more for backup and buffing.

Plus, with the retraining rules from PH2 and the Psion power that lets you do the same thing, making "suboptimal" choices in the early game is irrelevant to power at 20th level.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 10:59 AM
Y'know why I suggested gate? It's a paragon of summonin', that's why. I could have said summon monster 1 and summon any breath weapon mob, or summon monster 5 and summon sumthin' with ability drain, etc. What I mean is, you want battles over QUICKO, not slowly.

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 11:01 AM
Oh I'm well aware that not everyone wants to play a batman wizard. It's unfortunate that the guide just says "you stink if you choose this option! No advice for you!"

Just thought I'd look and that's what I found... which unfortunately still leaves us with the question: "is it worth taking for a summoner?"
As for the reserve feat-
That's probably worth taking, if only for the +1 caster level. With summoning, you can use all the rounds of summoned creatures you can get, and extra caster level definitely helps with that.
Plus, for minor things out of combat, the little elementals could probably be pretty helpful.
"Do this. Do that. Look for a trap. Ouch, that had to hurt. Lets not go that way."

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 11:10 AM
Y'know why I suggested gate? It's a paragon of summonin', that's why. I could have said summon monster 1 and summon any breath weapon mob, or summon monster 5 and summon sumthin' with ability drain, etc. What I mean is, you want battles over QUICKO, not slowly.

Right, except it is irrelevant. By the time you have gate your feat selection is trivial. Which is why Augment Summoning IS a good feat for Summoners. You WILL use it every time you summon. It will make a difference. In a single battle? A little. Over a career? You couldn't count the amount of extra hits you got in or the extra damage done.

Also, doesn't Gate appear on the Cleric's list? I thought casting spells duplicated on the Divine list was for suckers?

Plus 1000 xp, while ok once in a while, is pretty expensive to spend every battle.

Azerian Kelimon
2007-11-06, 11:13 AM
It's 500 XP, actually. You make up for it with the encounter's XP.

And a wizard is NOT set for damage. If you're bringing damaging summons, you're doing something wrong. You want your enemy dead, and it's HP is going ot be sky high. It's better to target it's CON and enjoy as it dies fast, or it INT and see how it plunges into a coma. Hitting HP is something left to meleers, not mages.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 11:23 AM
It's 500 XP, actually. You make up for it with the encounter's XP.

And a wizard is NOT set for damage. If you're bringing damaging summons, you're doing something wrong. You want your enemy dead, and it's HP is going ot be sky high. It's better to target it's CON and enjoy as it dies fast, or it INT and see how it plunges into a coma. Hitting HP is something left to meleers, not mages.

Well, the SRD seems to disagree with you on the xp cost of Gate. It seems to think that it is 1000 xp. But it sounds like you know more than the SRD. Keep targetting the creatures CON. The Undead love it when you do that. So do Constructs.

Versatility is a good thing. That's why you play a Summoner. To be able to get what you need for the situation. And yes, Summoners are covering melee. They are creating critters to fill the gaps in the battle lines to hold off the enemy til the fighters get over and deal with it.

I seriosly doubt anyone who has ever fought undead or constructs would feel that doing hp damage instead of stat damage is "doing it wrong".

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 11:29 AM
He's saying that you'll easily gain 500xp for killing off the encounter with gate, so it is an effective 500xp loss once the encounter is over.

No, damage is not the most effective thing for a wizard. But what we're focusing on is how to make a good conjurer/summoner, and being able to summon effective creatures for combat may become vital, if that is the style he wishes to use.

IF you plan on going pure summoner style mage, Jimbob, then I would say you should take augment summoning (preferably the variant if you can get it)- if only because it is one of the few feats out there that truly helps out your summoning abilities.

Draz74
2007-11-06, 11:49 AM
For what it's worth, Spell Focus: Conjuration is not a horrible feat. Conjuration has quite a few nice spells that provoke saves:

- The secondary effects of all the Orbs!
- Grease
- Glitterdust
- Web
- Stinking Cloud
- Cloudkill
- Teleport or Plane Shift (yes they can be used offensively (http://www.giantitp.com/comics/oots0456.html))
- Trap the Soul

Granted, most of the better spells on this list are low-level spells. But still.

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 11:55 AM
Granted, most of the better spells on this list are low-level spells. But still.


That's what makes the focus even more important. At lower level your casting stat bonus is still going to be low, so every point helps.

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 11:57 AM
Plus, I do believe Spell Focus is a required feat to get into Master Specialist, which he might want to look into. If that is true, (and he wants to take Master Specialist) then Spell Focus (conjuration) is definitely the way to go (because prereq feats are a must).

Mr. Friendly
2007-11-06, 12:02 PM
Plus, I do believe Spell Focus is a required feat to get into Master Specialist, which he might want to look into. If that is true, (and he wants to take Master Specialist) then Spell Focus (conjuration) is definitely the way to go (because prereq feats are a must).

Exactly. Plus, like I have said, it's a requisite for a few nice feats. (not necessarily a req for Augment Summoning with the Enhanced Summon variant)

I don't know about Master Specialist though, doesn't it require you to lose another School? Which would you pick at that point? Illusion? I would hate to be out Illusion AND Enchantment, but it's the weakest of the remaining schools.

AmberVael
2007-11-06, 12:07 PM
It doesn't require another dropped school- I believe you're thinking of the Focused Specialist Variant (which gives you an extra spell per day of your chosen school at the cost of one other school).

Master specialist... well hang on, I've got a character with a few levels in it, so I'll see what I've given to him from those levels. I think you gain a couple extra spells known and some other goodies.

The_Snark
2007-11-06, 12:38 PM
Cloudy Conjuration, from Complete Mage, is kinda neat. Sickening creatures just as your new summons attack is a nasty tactic, and since you're a conjurer it has no prerequisites. If you have feats to spare at low levels, might be worth it.

Prestige classes:
-Master Specialist: Easy to get into. Decent, nothing exceptional.
-Malconvoker: You lose 1 caster level, but fiends are among the more powerful of the things wizards get to summon.
-Alienist: My personal favorite. Doesn't give you all that much, but you don't lose anything, either, because it has easy prerequisites and gives you bonus metamagic feats and familiar progression. Except your sanity. You lose that. Not right for every character, definitely.