How good is the Ashworm Dragoon PrC?

[danielxcutter]

I mean I'm probably overestimating it's power, especially since mounted combat in an environment that allows you to fully utilize the abilities of the PrC is far from guaranteed. But I think you could at the very least make a pretty nice NPC out of it, and in the right(and probably not that high-op) campaign it might be viable as well.

Fluff-wise it might be a bit difficult, but if your game starts at 6th-level or higher you could probably talk the DM into letting you start as one probably, since the mechanical requirements are literally what you'd probably want for a mounted build anyways.

Ashworms aren't exactly the strongest of mounts(only one sting attack, ew), but according to the advancement table it grows to Huge size from 6 HD or more, twice it's original HD... except you get 4 bonus HD for it from Ashworm Dragoon 3+. How many Huge creatures can you get at level 8~9 or so without Animal Growth?

It also gets around or lessens several weaknesses that mounted combat builds tend to have; Heightened Sting means it actually has a good chance of landing that poison sting, Relentless Shield is a "lolnope" to the classical tactic of sniping the mount first - especially since Saddle Bonus gives you a pretty hefty competence bonus to your Ride checks while on it, even before pumping the skill bonus like crazy - and even if it does fall, you can get a new one by searching a day in an appropriate waste area. You even get the Full Mounted Attack class feature which I think only the Cavalier PrC has - a level later, sure, but still very nice!

You also get four bonus feats - well, technically two, but Stamp Into The Sand and Spirited Worm aren't that great. Still, it's there.

And there are even class features that let you tag along when the ashworm burrows into the ground, Sand Rider and Earth Rider - which are (Su), strangely, since the description suggests these are special techniques and not magical abilities - which probably aren't too strong, but still let you use its abilities to full potential. Heck, Sand Rider even lets you benefit from the ashworm's Evasive Dive, though considering its Reflex saves aren't going to be that great it might not be that big of a benefit.

Still, for a mounted Fighter-type it looks like you could do a lot worse. Cool mount, nice class features, actually might have a bit of utility as well with the X Rider features depending on how you use them.

What do you guys think?

[DeTess]

I've built with it in the past, but haven't really played it yet. I think it's a fairly good martial PrC, and the burrowing of the mount actually gives you a useful alternate movement ability that's pretty difficult to get for a non-caster. It's worse than a full caster or a martial initiator, but in a campaign where standard martials are viable and in which the terrain allows the use of the worm, I'd definitely consider taking it, because it's good enough in those cases, and the PrC is pretty stylish as well.

[tyckspoon]

You also get four bonus feats - well, technically two, but Stamp Into The Sand and Spirited Worm aren't that great. Still, it's there.


The bonus for Stamp Into The Sand if you also actually take Trample is pretty good - it causes your victim to have to take a Full Round Action to recover from Prone instead of a Move. Spirited Worm is.. lackluster. Would be nice if it came a lot earlier, but for a mounted combatant you want to have Spirited Charge much, much sooner than when this would give it to you, and the extra bonus for taking the feat normally is pretty blah.

Overall, I think the class is pretty good for a wilderness-based campaign. The ashworm is reasonably tough, it gets bonuses on a compressed schedule compared to normal mount/companion schedule, and moving through the ground is an excellent mobility type. Much less helpful in dungeon delving, where you are more likely to have issues with the creature's size and be surrounded by materials that it can't move through, but that's pretty much standard for mounted builds and shouldn't be taken as an issue with this particular variant.

[danielxcutter]

I've built with it in the past, but haven't really played it yet. I think it's a fairly good martial PrC, and the burrowing of the mount actually gives you a useful alternate movement ability that's pretty difficult to get for a non-caster. It's worse than a full caster or a martial initiator, but in a campaign where standard martials are viable and in which the terrain allows the use of the worm, I'd definitely consider taking it, because it's good enough in those cases, and the PrC is pretty stylish as well.

Well yeah, of course it’d be worse than ToB(and don’t even get me started on casters) but holding up against standard martials isn’t that bad.


The bonus for Stamp Into The Sand if you also actually take Trample is pretty good - it causes your victim to have to take a Full Round Action to recover from Prone instead of a Move. Spirited Worm is.. lackluster. Would be nice if it came a lot earlier, but for a mounted combatant you want to have Spirited Charge much, much sooner than when this would give it to you, and the extra bonus for taking the feat normally is pretty blah.

Yeah, I figured you’d want Spirited Charge a lot before level 14 or so.


Overall, I think the class is pretty good for a wilderness-based campaign. The ashworm is reasonably tough, it gets bonuses on a compressed schedule compared to normal mount/companion schedule, and moving through the ground is an excellent mobility type. Much less helpful in dungeon delving, where you are more likely to have issues with the creature's size and be surrounded by materials that it can't move through, but that's pretty much standard for mounted builds and shouldn't be taken as an issue with this particular variant.

Yeah, if you decide to choose this and the campaign is a dungeon crawl, either that’s on you or the DM. Not the PrC.

[AvatarVecna]

Ashworm Dragoon advances HD faster than paladin (and frankly, faster than druid), and the actual mount you get isn't all that bad. It also lets you add your existing paladin special mount benefits on top of whatever the PrC is giving you. In practice though, this still isn't great just because of the realities of animal companions and special mounts: druid companion is viable because they get both the fastest base class progression (which allows for more companion variety quicker) and a 9th lvl caster list that has a big focus on buffing animals. Ranger is half as fast and has a much worse list for buffing, making the AC virtually useless, and paladin isn't too much better. Ashworm Dragoon advances slightly faster than druid companion, but you're giving up even the paladin spell progression that allows you to make an animal companion into a worthwhile combatant. The breakoff points for Ashworm Dragoon are lvls 1, 4, and 7 - if you take it beyond 7th lvl, you're probably finishing it, and maybe taking it into epic, because you're going all-in on that faster progression.

Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 1 is is effectively Paladin X-1 for all non-mount features, and is effectively Paladin X+4 for special mount features - that's not a bad tradeoff. Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 4 brings Relentless Shield, which effectively makes your mount immune to attacks. I mean okay, that's not a guarantee, but it's universally easier to pump a skill into the stratosphere than an attack bonus. You might even be able to deflect crits, depending on whether a particular line in Mounted Combat is rules text or the developers attempting a "rule X is effectively rule Y" that forgets about important edge cases. It won't help you against non-targeted spells, though, but Paladin giving Improved Evasion and Share Saving Throws will help there. Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 7 is starting to lose out on a lot of paladin features, in particular higher-level spellcasting, but full attacking on a move is golden.

TL;DR Ashworm Dragoon is pretty good by mounted combat standards, and by martial standards, but it can only get so good without lots of casting. It's probably a lot more viable in a more forgiving set-up, though: if gestalt, and alignment restrictions are loosened a smidge, Druid X // Paladin 5/Halfling Outrider 1/Ashworm Dragoon Y gets some basic super-mount action going while still having full druid casting. If your DM doesn't care about the "no double PrC" rule, and you don't wanna mainly be a caster with a side-schtick, Paladin 5/Ashworm Dragoon 10 // Ranger 4/Druid 1/Halfling Outrider 10 will end up 15th lvl with the mount getting HD +30, NA +34, Str +15, Dex +6, Int 9, and the various druid/paladin abilities given to companions/mounts. Supermount shenanigans are fun, and it's hard to call it OP in a gestalt game like that.

[danielxcutter]

Ashworm Dragoon advances HD faster than paladin (and frankly, faster than druid), and the actual mount you get isn't all that bad. It also lets you add your existing paladin special mount benefits on top of whatever the PrC is giving you. In practice though, this still isn't great just because of the realities of animal companions and special mounts: druid companion is viable because they get both the fastest base class progression (which allows for more companion variety quicker) and a 9th lvl caster list that has a big focus on buffing animals. Ranger is half as fast and has a much worse list for buffing, making the AC virtually useless, and paladin isn't too much better. Ashworm Dragoon advances slightly faster than druid companion, but you're giving up even the paladin spell progression that allows you to make an animal companion into a worthwhile combatant. The breakoff points for Ashworm Dragoon are lvls 1, 4, and 7 - if you take it beyond 7th lvl, you're probably finishing it, and maybe taking it into epic, because you're going all-in on that faster progression.

Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 1 is is effectively Paladin X-1 for all non-mount features, and is effectively Paladin X+4 for special mount features - that's not a bad tradeoff. Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 4 brings Relentless Shield, which effectively makes your mount immune to attacks. I mean okay, that's not a guarantee, but it's universally easier to pump a skill into the stratosphere than an attack bonus. You might even be able to deflect crits, depending on whether a particular line in Mounted Combat is rules text or the developers attempting a "rule X is effectively rule Y" that forgets about important edge cases. It won't help you against non-targeted spells, though, but Paladin giving Improved Evasion and Share Saving Throws will help there. Paladin X/Ashworm Dragoon 7 is starting to lose out on a lot of paladin features, in particular higher-level spellcasting, but full attacking on a move is golden.

TL;DR Ashworm Dragoon is pretty good by mounted combat standards, and by martial standards, but it can only get so good without lots of casting. It's probably a lot more viable in a more forgiving set-up, though: if gestalt, and alignment restrictions are loosened a smidge, Druid X // Paladin 5/Halfling Outrider 1/Ashworm Dragoon Y gets some basic super-mount action going while still having full druid casting. If your DM doesn't care about the "no double PrC" rule, and you don't wanna mainly be a caster with a side-schtick, Paladin 5/Ashworm Dragoon 10 // Ranger 4/Druid 1/Halfling Outrider 10 will end up 15th lvl with the mount getting HD +30, NA +34, Str +15, Dex +6, Int 9, and the various druid/paladin abilities given to companions/mounts. Supermount shenanigans are fun, and it's hard to call it OP in a gestalt game like that.

I was mostly thinking about single-classed Fighter, actually. For a game that was relatively low-op. I know it doesn't really stack up to ToB or proper optimization after a certain point.