The 1 Constitution Challenge

[SangoProduction]

So, you have 1 Constitution. Must still personally adventure, because reason. So no sitting in a demiplane. No standing 2 miles away, using phasing arrows. No Scry & Die. (So on, so forth.)
Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party, or else you are at severe risk of having assassins jump out at you with no one to assist.

Let's say...level 10. Any class. Any race. Any template (with no ECL buy off). So long as they don't get rid of Con. Feel free to make Con irrelevant, if you want / can, but must still have a Constitution score of 1.
Ruleset: 3.p; First Party / Spheres preferred. 3rd party allowed.

EDIT: Spells/Effects that change stats can not change Constitution.
Minimum HP from HD+Con is 1. And let's say we max out our Hit Die per level.
CLARIFICATION: You are part of a typical 4-man party, that, aside from you, isn't doing anything particularly special, but aren't incompetent.

What are your solutions to completing adventures without dying.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

No getting rid of Con, huh? So no necropolitan?

How about a Human Heritage/Otherworldly dvati psion/thrallherd/fiend of possession (using the rituals in Savage Species metamorphosis for the [Evil] subtype)? You pull in minions and inhabit their bodies, using their Con scores (or complete lack thereof) for your own.

Or you could take Wedded To History (Survivor) to swap Fort saves for Will saves and use Faerie Mysteries Initiate for Int to HP instead of Con.

Or just buy/craft a psychoactive skin of proteus and keep metamorphosis up at all times. You replace your Con score there anyway, so why not dump it? Bonus points if it's a Device, from Ravenloft: Legacy of the Blood, so it's undispelable and undisjunctionable.

Or just buy two scrolls of polymorph any object to give yourself a new body with a new Con score.

[Gusmo]

How do hit points work with a -5 con modifier? Are you not allowed a d4 class for first level? What if you're playing a d6 class, do you start losing hit points at each level up? If there's some sort of 'minimum +1 HP per level' rule, how would it interact with improved toughness from CWar?

Surviving at first level is particularly hard. A wizard with abrupt jaunt may be a good option, as that's a strong and versatile defense option available from the beginning. But depending on how a d4 class works with a -5 con modifier, this may be impossible.

I guess you could also play a barbarian, and skew yourself heavily toward offense and immunity with the hope that your HP doesn't come into play much. HP boosting feats and abilities, damage reduction, and the like, are at least a little relevant here.

[SangoProduction]

How do hit points work with a -5 con modifier? Are you not allowed a d4 class for first level? What if you're playing a d6 class, do you start losing hit points at each level up? If there's some sort of 'minimum +1 HP per level' rule, how would it interact with improved toughness from CWar?

Surviving at first level is particularly hard. A wizard with abrupt jaunt may be a good option, as that's a strong and versatile defense option available from the beginning. But depending on how a d4 class works with a -5 con modifier, this may be impossible.

I guess you could also play a barbarian, and skew yourself heavily toward offense and immunity with the hope that your HP doesn't come into play much. HP boosting feats and abilities, damage reduction, and the like, are at least a little relevant here.

I thought there were already rules for that. But just in case.

Minimum HP from HD+Con is 1. And let's say we max out our Hit Die per level.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How do hit points work with a -5 con modifier? Are you not allowed a d4 class for first level? What if you're playing a d6 class, do you start losing hit points at each level up? If there's some sort of 'minimum +1 HP per level' rule, how would it interact with improved toughness from CWar?

Surviving at first level is particularly hard. A wizard with abrupt jaunt may be a good option, as that's a strong and versatile defense option available from the beginning. But depending on how a d4 class works with a -5 con modifier, this may be impossible.
Each roll of a Hit Die (though a penalty can never drop a result below 1—that is, a character always gains at least 1 hit point each time he or she advances in level).

You could always body swap to take someone else's body.

Divine Metamagic (Persist) + Extend for massive buffs to your Con score (including things like polymorph).

Call a nightmare, have it astral projection you, then keep your real body in a haversack with a bottle of air to protect you from getting ganked despite your HP.

Beastland ferocity + delay death to become immune to death via HP damage. Best if Persisted, obviously, and combined with constant fast healing.

Become invisible + incorporeal or ethereal to avoid being targeted, and travel along in the walls to avoid getting hit even if they try.

[Gusmo]

Y'know, I'm feeling the wizard idea now. Or any caster, really, but abrupt jaunt is really going to help you actually survive to levels where more elaborate powers come online. Because your con is terrible anyway and str is an otherwise pointless stat, by going with venerable age you've only got dex to lose. And that just makes con-replacement stuff like faeries mysteries initiate all the better.

Edit: Ha! I'm also realizing caster races with a con penalty are even better now, because the penalty is already baked into their stats. The more I think about it, a caster might play entirely normally. Any caster who was avoiding melee before is still doing the exact same thing now.

[newguydude1]

i already did this.

just get into a box. full cover against everything. have long duration minions pull you around and kill everything for you.

dmm fell animate
persistent sonorous hum + animate weapon
mirror mephit
planar binding
dweomerkeeper + simulacrum

[Maat Mons]

Psion can have a boatload of temporary hit points from Vigor. And effectively twice a many by using Share Pain with his psicrystal.

Elans have a less efficient means of trading power points for hit points.

Anything that lets you keep fighting at negative hit points is kind of like +10 extra hit points. At low levels, that's a pretty big percentage of your health.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Psion can have a boatload of temporary hit points from Vigor. And effectively twice a many by using Share Pain with his psicrystal.

Elans have a less efficient means of trading power points for hit points.Use a fistful of +1 manifester arrows to keep yourself topped up on share pain and vigor.

[Doctor Despair]

Half-Undead (Gheden) Troll-Blooded could be used to some effect here. Toss on Tainted Blood for acid immunity, and rush for sources of fire resistance (or, preferably, the fire subtype). You don't take damage except for fire damage, so avoid all sources of fire at all costs.

[ciopo]

a bard or paladin or sorcerer, with 2 Seela paragon racial level

(War of the burning sky campaign book, they substitute CHA to CON for HP and fort saves)

plus a mandatory *something* that makes me immune to constitution ability damage/drain

[Fouredged Sword]

Have we mentioned the fairly easy ways of not basing our HP on con?

Because Faerie Mysteries Initiate is a feat that allows us to replace our -5 con modifier to HP with a much more reasonable modifier from our intelligence. At that point we are mostly worried about our fortitude saves with their -5 penalty.

While this sucks, we CAN just get a +6 constitution item and the great fortitude feat and go about our day. We get boosted to 7 con and erase the -2 fortitude save modifier with a +2 from the feat. Alternatively we could get to level 4 of Impure Prince and replace our con to fort with wis to fort.

But in favor of dealing with a fixed 1 con I am going to suggest Marshal 2 / Paladin 4 / Akodo Champion 2

This adds charisma to your fort save and then to all saves twice by level 8, allowing you to shrug off nearly anything aimed at your saves even with the -5 penalty. A reasonable score of +2 charisma means you get +1 to fortitude. Every two points of charisma past 14 you get +3 to saves beyond that. As you eventually get a +6 item of charisma you end up with something like +10 to fort saves despite your constitution.

[noob]

Variant of the challenge: whichever stat you use to defend yourself and not just for offence is reduced to 1.
So if your con is used for HP it is 1 if your int is used for spells and that one of them is a defensive spell then your int is 1 if your str is used to carry walls to protect yourself then your str falls to 1 and so on.

[Techwarrior]

Level 10 is about the level where you can reliably be permanently Invisible and have backups that negate Divinations. If needed I can posit such a build.

[King of Nowhere]

instead of trying to make some defence, buffing attack so that you should never have to defend yourself is also possible. a mailman build could work, acti first with celerity, obliterate the field, you are not taking any damage.of course, it only works until something survives

[Elkad]

PHB-only works fine if you get to skip to L10. Magic Jar is online then. You don't even need to lean on the rules for a permanent swap.

Make a homunculus for independent action during downtime. (better than a familiar, it can have actual hitpoints)
And if there aren't any handy trolls to possess, you can always possess the party barbarian instead.

[ChudoJogurt]

Somewhat weaker option than those already mentioned, but you could enter Dragon Warrior at level 7, and add Wisdom to your hitpoints on each level.

That can be helpful, especially if you already play wiz-heavy fighty class (Psychic Warrior/Swordsage/etc)

Also, Frenzied Berserker - as long as you have rages and have defense against Calm Emotions, and a cleric handy to heal you back up, you are functionally immortal.

[AnimeTheCat]

The worst thing that can happen to a 1 con character isn't even HP damage. It's Con damage. You have a -5 to your Fort Save and you can only afford to lose 1 point of Con. No matter how many HP you have, you're a vastly more likely to run in to issues with failing poison fort saves. Going with the Wizard idea, you're going to start with a -5 Fort save. Anything that you don't see coming that requires a fort save and deals even 1 con damage, you're toast. Things like traps, hidden rats ambushing you, fungi that emit spores that poison you, etc are probably going to kill you. In the Sunless Citadel, for example, you're constantly facing dire rats that have a Filth Fever disease on their bite. You're probably going to encounter enough of them that at some point they will hit you, and you'll probably fail that fort save. As soon as you take your first bit of Con damage, you're done, and Restoration is a bit out of reach at that level. At level 10, you're even more likely to run in to something that can hide and poison you. Heck, even some drow poison to knock you out is going to be a pretty huge threat, and then it's easy to take you down. The biggest threat of 1 Con isn't HP, it's the -5 penalty to Fort saves and the fact that any Con damage will kill you. Cloudkill just kills you, even if you make the save. Even if you get a huge bonus to your fort save (cloak of resistance +5, Great Fortitude for +2, etc) you're still going to be really susceptible to any spell that requires a fort save.

[zlefin]

Since 3.P means pathfinder material; synthesist summoner will work easily enough; even with the limits on con modifying you still have the eidolon's normal hp shielding you.

[Elkad]

I'm considering "Just use X to hitpoints instead of Con" as against the spirit of the rules.

"Survive at 10th level with 10 hit points and -5 to Fort"
Which means "never be targeted".


Note, given the 2nd post which said "take max hitpoints". On a d12 class, you actually end up with more hitpoints than 10 con and taking average. Which is playable. Especially if you build for temp hitpoints. Crusader Steely Resolve and psi Vigor would give you a nice buffer.

[ben-zayb]

Probably not what you're looking for, but the title just reminded me of an Iron Chef entry by Zaq: Li'l Brudder (https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=19553609&postcount=256)

[Fouredged Sword]

The worst thing that can happen to a 1 con character isn't even HP damage. It's Con damage. You have a -5 to your Fort Save and you can only afford to lose 1 point of Con. No matter how many HP you have, you're a vastly more likely to run in to issues with failing poison fort saves. Going with the Wizard idea, you're going to start with a -5 Fort save. Anything that you don't see coming that requires a fort save and deals even 1 con damage, you're toast. Things like traps, hidden rats ambushing you, fungi that emit spores that poison you, etc are probably going to kill you. In the Sunless Citadel, for example, you're constantly facing dire rats that have a Filth Fever disease on their bite. You're probably going to encounter enough of them that at some point they will hit you, and you'll probably fail that fort save. As soon as you take your first bit of Con damage, you're done, and Restoration is a bit out of reach at that level. At level 10, you're even more likely to run in to something that can hide and poison you. Heck, even some drow poison to knock you out is going to be a pretty huge threat, and then it's easy to take you down. The biggest threat of 1 Con isn't HP, it's the -5 penalty to Fort saves and the fact that any Con damage will kill you. Cloudkill just kills you, even if you make the save. Even if you get a huge bonus to your fort save (cloak of resistance +5, Great Fortitude for +2, etc) you're still going to be really susceptible to any spell that requires a fort save.

You are going to want to get a con boosting item ASAP for exactly this reason, and invest in classes like Paladin that boost saves and grant broad immunities to many con damaging effects like disease.

[AnimeTheCat]

EDIT: Spells/Effects that change stats can not change Constitution.



You are going to want to get a con boosting item ASAP for exactly this reason, and invest in classes like Paladin that boost saves and grant broad immunities to many con damaging effects like disease.

From the OP, that's a No-Go. You have to have a Constitution score of 1 and you can't change that in any way. Immunity to poison and disease is one thing, but that still doesn't save you from cloudkill which, if you somehow manage to make it to level 10, will simply just kill you. Also, that won't help you against other things that require a Fortitude Save, such as a Basalisk's Petrifying Gaze. It's only a DC 13, but with a -5 penalty that's not likely to be a success (you're more likely to fail than you are to succeed). Things like the Belker that are normally no issue are suddenly a massive threat (DC 14 fort save or take 3d4 damage per round).

Whatever the build is that would most successfully do this challenge will be the build that exists as little as possible and is as difficult to spot/target as possible. I think Abrupt Jaunt Wizard likely has the best chance of surviving, but even they would probably die to a Belker before they got all the way to level 10 since Belker's don't actually have to make attack rolls to deal damage to you. Even something like a Cloaker could probably kill most builds for this (DC 15 fort save or be paralyzed as by hold monster for 5 rounds) with their moans. Vrocks pose a threat with their DC 22 Fort save or stun in a 30 foot radius. A silver Dragon Wyrmling would possibly be a threat as well (Cone of Paralysis Gas, Fort save or be paralyzed for 1d6+1 rounds, DC 14). Ghosts, in general, are going to give everyone a bad time. Ghasts will probably be problematic as well, even for the abrupt jaunt wizard (DC 15 Fort save or be sickened for 1d6+4 Minutes, 10 foot range no attack necessary). Sea Hags are a real threat as well (Strength Damage on sight and a Fort Save or die gaze). Heck, a Magmin could just kill (DC 12 Fort save or take 1d6 damage per round within 20 feet). Medusa, petrifying gaze. Salt Mephits Dehydrate (fort for half, DC 14, 20 foot radius). A nymph will just end your career (DC 17 or blinded permanently just for looking) but can also hit you with a stunning gaze attack (also DC 17). Red Slaad, 20 foot burst, DC 16 or be stunned for 1d3 rounds. A Sphinx can roar twice and paralyze everything in 250 feet (DC 19).

So... yeah. Getting immunity to poison and disease is pretty much a must but that won't come online at level 1, so unless you can manage to literally never be hit by anything until that comes online, you're probably going to die at a very low level. The only way to "win" the challenge is to literally never be hit by any effect, ever (which is difficult, as pointed out above).

[Doctor Despair]

Void-Mind Half-Undead (Gheden) Human with Troll-Blooded has immunity to:

All damage except acid and fire
Acid damage
Mind-affecting spells and abilities
Ability damage
Ability drain
Energy drain
Stunning
Massive damage

It also has:
DR 5/magic
SR 10+HD

We start at ECL 5 (1HD, LA+4), and we can technically afford the fire subtype by level 3 (by paying 16200 for a casting of Mantle of the Fiery Spirit), but by RAW I believe we'd have to wait until level 5 when the cost is equal to or less than half our total WBL.

A Periapt of Proof Against Poison is a hefty 27,000, but we can get the poor man's version for 8,000 (Ring of Antivenom, immediate action immunity 1/day).

...

Alternatively, we can roll with the blocking line of effect route. Go Dragonborn of Bahamut Telthor (both templates, so take the race of your choice. You can float under the ground and block line of effect from just about anything. Combine with some way to meaningfully contribute to a fight (such as buffing allies) and level that way. I did a psionic character using Keen Eared Scout and Burrowing Power in the recent villainous competition using this technique. This works from level 1 (ECL 3).

On the same note, you can take Divine Minion Diabolius (LA 2) and enter Fiend of Possession at level 4 (ECL 6) to avoid line of effect that way.

[Yael]

[Laughs in an elven fey dance of passions that makes you live longer the smarter you are]

Persistent Ruin Delver's Fortune for the Fort problem? If not, a Warblade dip would allow Mind over Body, which solves the Fort problem completely if you spare a round or two summoning critters to recover maneuvers if needed (which is not cost-effective, but running into melee is not exactly what you want).

[magicalmagicman]

i already did this.

just get into a box. full cover against everything. have long duration minions pull you around and kill everything for you.

dmm fell animate
persistent sonorous hum + animate weapon
mirror mephit
planar binding
dweomerkeeper + simulacrum

This is probably the best answer. If you cannot target the wizard with anything including AoE spells, then he will never lose even a single point of hp.

The box alone isn't enough though. Harpies for example will defeat the box, so will gas based attacks like cloud kill. So you need to upgrade the box to be immune to sound and gas based attacks. But other than that this is how I'd complete the "challenge".

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Start with a tinfoil hat (https://www.reddit.com/r/DnD/comments/1ksmnx/35the_ubiquitous_wizard_hat_and_its_true_function/). It helps if you have a familiar who can ready an action to call out the command word whenever something would negatively affect you.

[Gusmo]

What's the fastest way to undead/construct sort of immunities? You could also make heavy use of the spell Surge of Fortune to pass saves.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

How about a The Big Guy Is With Me build? Use metamorphosis on your psicrystal to turn it into a [Con --] juggernaut that you can buff from afar. Most easily done if you're a hengeyokai or tibbit or something else that won't be targeted (especially if you can fly while remaining inconspicuous). If you can't shapechange innately, purchase a phylactery of change for cheap from the A&EG. If you're Small, turn into a tern or something else nobody will pay attention to. Meanwhile, your pet clay golem (ML 11+ due to items or feats) that is secretly your psicrystal is getting the everloving [[hockey pucks]] buffed out of it (especially via vigor and share pain for the large numbers of effective temp hp and half damage [or even less, for your hardness 8 psicrystal]).

[MR_Anderson]

The worst thing that can happen to a 1 con character isn't even HP damage. It's ... you're still going to be really susceptible to any spell that requires a fort save.

Even non-fort save spells are a problem. Fireball or any other Reflex for half spell that doesn’t even target can kill on a save for half. This means Evasion is needed.


You are going to want to get a con boosting item ASAP for exactly this reason, and invest in classes like Paladin that boost saves and grant broad immunities to many con damaging effects like disease.

This is absolutely Correct about Paladin providing so much, and Saves, Immunities, Healing

You want to never be caught off guard, so Uncanny Dodge is important, and when you are in combat you want to be untouchable, so every possible boost to AC.

But you know what’s better than dodging an attack, prevent entering the fight before it happens by hiding or by convincing all sides that fighting isn’t the best course of action.

If you want to play a character with 1 CHA, you will want to play a character that everyone loves, even the bad guys. Max the Charisma and then get every synergy and feat and bonus feasible for Diplomacy.

This means diving into a level of Cleric for Domain powers. I recommend Charm, Herald, & Luck domains. Charm does great wonders with a Paladin too.

So what do we start looking at?


1 or 2 Levels of Monk for Saves, Evasion, Wisdom Bonus to AC
2 or 3 Levels of Paladin for Divine Grace, Detect Evil, Laying on Hands, Immunities
2 Levels of Rogue for Trapfinding, Evasion, Skill Points.
- Note some allow Evasions to stack and become Improved Evasion.
2 Levels of Shadow Thief of Amn for Doublespeak, Uncanny Dodge, and Bonus Feat (Negotiator)
1 or 3 Levels of the Emissary of Barachiel for Culling and Conversion
- Note this could be the character’s finishing move to turn any evil to Good and repent of their ways.
2 or 5 Levels of Evangelist for Inspire Dread, Fast Talker, Skill Mastery, and Convert the Unfaithful.
- Note that you can stack Evangelist and Emissary to reduce Will Saves, and then make it against your Diplomacy.
1 Level of Cleric for Domain Powers.

Plenty of Levels to add more for a 20 spec even though this is a 10 spec.

Skills: Diplomacy and all Synergy skills. Balance and Tumble for increased AC fighting defensively, and full round defensive movement. Search for Traps.

Feats: Diplomacy Buffs and Others needed for Prestige Classes


When I read the original post, I couldn’t help but think that a DM was forcing a player to play an escort mission, lol.

[Doctor Despair]

Even non-fort save spells are a problem. Fireball or any other Reflex for half spell that doesn’t even target can kill on a save for half. This means Evasion is needed.


Or just block line of effect by living in a box, as New guy suggested, or being incorporeal and staying underground/in objects as I suggested.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Could you take fiend of possession as a shaper/constructor, make long-duration astral constructs, and inhabit them as your bodies?

[Doctor Despair]

Could you take fiend of possession as a shaper/constructor, make long-duration astral constructs, and inhabit them as your bodies?

You can possess your allies, too, although they might complain. More helpful could be possessing a weapon to take advantage of the enhancement mode FoPs get. Spend a bunch of your WBL on a sizing riverine sportspear (read: toothpick) so that you practically can't be kicked out of it.

My main issue with the FoP route is that the earliest you can get into it is class level 4 due to the base will save requirement. Maybe if you start with enough racial hitdie you could start it at level one, I suppose, but those never feel good to have.

[Vampyre_Lord]

i like wraith class from SoP for this. at level 10 with the object ride wraith haunt, you can possess diminutive objects. like the amulet your fighter friend is wearing. even if th enemy does somehow figure out where you are any damage is taken by the amulet.

i did this in a game once w/ an illusion focus. i made an illusory body wear the amulet instead of my fighter (tactile illusion feat). the DM had no idea how to deal w/ me

[Gruftzwerg]

Somehow I always end up taking Warlock in these kind of challenges..^^

Silverbrow Human Warlock
1st lvl:
Feats: Flexible Mind (hide, move silently), Mind over Matter
Invocation: Summon Swarm
Assuming CHA 18, we start with 10Hp which should give us some safety for the first few lvls. Hide & Move Silently together with Summon Swarm should easily carry us over the first few levels.

Spiderclimb and Entropic Warding will keep us safe for the early levels.
Draconic Aura: "Vigor" will give us (and nearby allies) basically fast healing as long as we are below half max HP.
Spiderclimb later gets replaced with See the Unseen (when we get access to Fell Flight).

Fell Flight, The Dead Walk and Walk Unseen later help us further to avoid being targeted/noticed by enemies while having some swarms or undead minions to fight stuff for you.

Dark Stalker at lvl 6 increases the value of the points we invest into hide & move silently.

Pick Fire and Acid as resistances.

At lvl 9 pick Great Fortitude.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Warblade with Faerie Mysteries Initiate, Mind Over Body, and a continuous effect item of Undersong (SC).

[MR_Anderson]

Or just block line of effect by living in a box, as New guy suggested, or being incorporeal and staying underground/in objects as I suggested.

Arguably living in a box is not actually living.

I do like the Magic Jar type effects, but as a DM I would be hard pushed to approve something that can do it 24/7 earlier than what the PHB even allows.

It is absolutely an option about level 11 or 12, which is only a level past what was stated.

I think this would be a great item to have crafted that allowed him a continuous magic item of it, but when you jump in to continuous magic items lots of things really open up.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Arguably living in a box is not actually living.

I do like the Magic Jar type effects, but as a DM I would be hard pushed to approve something that can do it 24/7 earlier than what the PHB even allows.

It is absolutely an option about level 11 or 12, which is only a level past what was stated.

I think this would be a great item to have crafted that allowed him a continuous magic item of it, but when you jump in to continuous magic items lots of things really open up.The ghost savage progression (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghost.shtml) (about 2/3 the way down) allows constant incorporeality by level 2, although you lose your Con score, so it doesn't work for this challenge. However, it can be done otherwise, rather easily. All you need to do is succumb to your 1 Con.

[newguydude1]

Arguably living in a box is not actually living.

I do like the Magic Jar type effects, but as a DM I would be hard pushed to approve something that can do it 24/7 earlier than what the PHB even allows.

It is absolutely an option about level 11 or 12, which is only a level past what was stated.

I think this would be a great item to have crafted that allowed him a continuous magic item of it, but when you jump in to continuous magic items lots of things really open up.

living in a box means building a box with a door and going inside it. how is that not living.

[Doctor Despair]

The ghost savage progression (https://www.realmshelps.net/monsters/templates/ghost.shtml) (about 2/3 the way down) allows constant incorporeality by level 2, although you lose your Con score, so it doesn't work for this challenge. However, it can be done otherwise, rather easily. All you need to do is succumb to your 1 Con.

Dragonborn Telthor X has it from level 1 (ECL 3), plus you avoid the issue of the remaining savage progression levels. Technically by RAW you don't need to take them, but DMs may complain about that reading

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Dragonborn Telthor X has it from level 1 (ECL 3), plus you avoid the issue of the remaining savage progression levels. Technically by RAW you don't need to take them, but DMs may complain about that readingThe savage progression does explicitly say you're not addicted; you can stop anytime you want!

[MR_Anderson]

living in a box means building a box with a door and going inside it. how is that not living.

You have to come out of the box or it has to be opened at some point, thus it isn’t a solution in my opinion.

Besides, the phrase get a life to all the gamers who stay in their house is what I was referring to with the comment...it isn’t really living.

[newguydude1]

You have to come out of the box or it has to be opened at some point, thus it isn’t a solution in my opinion.

Besides, the phrase get a life to all the gamers who stay in their house is what I was referring to with the comment...it isn’t really living.

yeah open it to get food in it and maybe a bucket cleaned. unless you got an ominpotent entity with a sniper rifle its not gonna make a difference.

staying inside a mech 24/7 and killing everything is living. so why not a box being dragged around by super powerful monsters under your command. box can become a backpack for said powerful monster later.

[AnimeTheCat]

Somehow I always end up taking Warlock in these kind of challenges..^^

Silverbrow Human Warlock
1st lvl:
Feats: Flexible Mind (hide, move silently), Mind over Matter
Invocation: Summon Swarm
Assuming CHA 18, we start with 10Hp which should give us some safety for the first few lvls. Hide & Move Silently together with Summon Swarm should easily carry us over the first few levels.

Spiderclimb and Entropic Warding will keep us safe for the early levels.
Draconic Aura: "Vigor" will give us (and nearby allies) basically fast healing as long as we are below half max HP.
Spiderclimb later gets replaced with See the Unseen (when we get access to Fell Flight).

Fell Flight, The Dead Walk and Walk Unseen later help us further to avoid being targeted/noticed by enemies while having some swarms or undead minions to fight stuff for you.

Dark Stalker at lvl 6 increases the value of the points we invest into hide & move silently.

Pick Fire and Acid as resistances.

At lvl 9 pick Great Fortitude.

You're susceptible to traps pretty much the entire time. If you don't pick up trap finding at some point, you're going to fall victim to the first magical trap you don't send your swarms directly over (if swarms will even trigger the trap). If you get attacked by anything that requires a fort save, you're probably dead. At level 5-10 how are you going to deal with a fireball from any yahoo with level 3 spells or a UMD high enough to activate a wand? Magic Missile? The build is good in some ways, but it is far from good enough to keep you alive for much beyond level 2-3. Any rat, dire rat, or other such vermin with Filth Fever (which is super common at low levels) is going to kill you with a nearly 80% chance.

[MR_Anderson]

yeah open it to get food in it and maybe a bucket cleaned. unless you got an ominpotent entity with a sniper rifle its not gonna make a difference.

staying inside a mech 24/7 and killing everything is living. so why not a box being dragged around by super powerful monsters under your command. box can become a backpack for said powerful monster later.

5 Magic Missiles by a level 9 mage following invisible could be enough when the door opens, not to mention a fireball would go in an open door.

If someone played a character as just another character in a box, I’d ding them on xp for not playing their character. I’m sorry, were talking worse than prison conditions. I also disagree with the staying inside a mech 24/7.

[newguydude1]

5 Magic Missiles by a level 9 mage following invisible could be enough when the door opens, not to mention a fireball would go in an open door.

If someone played a character as just another character in a box, I’d ding them on xp for not playing their character. I’m sorry, were talking worse than prison conditions. I also disagree with the staying inside a mech 24/7.

{scrubbed}

[magicalmagicman]

If someone played a character as just another character in a box, I’d ding them on xp for not playing their character. I’m sorry, were talking worse than prison conditions.

:smallconfused: Traveling inside a fortified carriage that you can exit anytime, and being ferried around by powerful monsters you are in full control of is worse than prison conditions?

Could you elaborate on how a player who learns, prepares, and casts spells that let him acquire long duration monsters, and then learns, prepares, and casts long duration buffs on said monsters at the start of each day, and uses his wealth to purchase a mundane object that grants him full cover, is "not playing their character"?

Out of curiosity, what do you disagree about the mech thing? The wizard built the mech. The wizard uses the mech to adventure. How is that "not playing their character" as well? Seems to me the player is trying to play a mech pilot. Why is playing a mech pilot "not playing their character?"

[Gruftzwerg]

You're susceptible to traps pretty much the entire time. If you don't pick up trap finding at some point, you're going to fall victim to the first magical trap you don't send your swarms directly over (if swarms will even trigger the trap). If you get attacked by anything that requires a fort save, you're probably dead. At level 5-10 how are you going to deal with a fireball from any yahoo with level 3 spells or a UMD high enough to activate a wand? Magic Missile? The build is good in some ways, but it is far from good enough to keep you alive for much beyond level 2-3. Any rat, dire rat, or other such vermin with Filth Fever (which is super common at low levels) is going to kill you with a nearly 80% chance.

1. Traps
Starting at lvl 2 you have access to spiderclimb all day. Unless you are outside (where traps are not so common as insides imho) you don't have a reason to touch the ground (where most low lvl traps are). Later you get Fell Flight to avoid touching anything at all. The Dead Walk gives you minions to open doors/chests and the like without exposing yourself to possible traps.

2. Fortitude Saves
First the enemy needs to spot you to target the warlock at all or otherwise has to rely on AoE to hit him with luck. Note that the warlock doesn't leave a trail and has no scent to follow (Entrophic Warding). Later when he can fly 24/7, there are even more possibles spaces (3D) where the warlock might be. Being invisible 24/7 is another layer any enemy needs to beat besides Hide/Spot to locate your position. You never have a reason to go out of invisibility thanks to summon swarm and undead minions.

3. UMD (really?)
Warlock beats every low lvl race for UMD due to Deceive Item. If you want to make use of Wand, well the warlock can abuse wands of any class pretty easy without fails past lvl 4. Enough choices for more buffs.

The build never needs to expose himself and can remain 24/7 hidden and invisible while still doing damage with undead minions and summon swarm. Not high damage, but anything that can't beat your double layer of stealth&invisibility gets the short end of the stick.
In fact, most enemies will have problems with the bleed effect your summoned bats can apply. Damage enemies once, back off and look how they die when they don't have access to "heal" skill or heal spells.


Sure you could tailor a specific encounter (enemy caster) against this build, but in most regular scenarios this build will just faceroll over any encounter.

[AnimeTheCat]

1. Traps
Starting at lvl 2 you have access to spiderclimb all day. Unless you are outside (where traps are not so common as insides imho) you don't have a reason to touch the ground (where most low lvl traps are). Later you get Fell Flight to avoid touching anything at all. The Dead Walk gives you minions to open doors/chests and the like without exposing yourself to possible traps.

2. Fortitude Saves
First the enemy needs to spot you to target the warlock at all or otherwise has to rely on AoE to hit him with luck. Note that the warlock doesn't leave a trail and has no scent to follow (Entrophic Warding). Later when he can fly 24/7, there are even more possibles spaces (3D) where the warlock might be. Being invisible 24/7 is another layer any enemy needs to beat besides Hide/Spot to locate your position. You never have a reason to go out of invisibility thanks to summon swarm and undead minions.

3. UMD (really?)
Warlock beats every low lvl race for UMD due to Deceive Item. If you want to make use of Wand, well the warlock can abuse wands of any class pretty easy without fails past lvl 4. Enough choices for more buffs.

The build never needs to expose himself and can remain 24/7 hidden and invisible while still doing damage with undead minions and summon swarm. Not high damage, but anything that can't beat your double layer of stealth&invisibility gets the short end of the stick.
In fact, most enemies will have problems with the bleed effect your summoned bats can apply. Damage enemies once, back off and look how they die when they don't have access to "heal" skill or heal spells.


Sure you could tailor a specific encounter (enemy caster) against this build, but in most regular scenarios this build will just faceroll over any encounter.

Ok, how do you propose you bypass a locked chest with a magical trap inside of it? Pretty much any magical trap will do. Do you just not want to open any chests? How about any locked door with a proximity trap on the other side? None of your minions can open locked doors and whether mindless undead can open chests is honestly debatable. From what I can tell, nothing gives them agency to be able to manipulate latches, knobs, wheels, slides, etc that might be holding a chest shut (with or without a lock). They definitely can't search the remaining contents of chests or other furniture for secret compartments that might hold more treasure, and might also be trapped as well. Neither a trap inside of a chest or beyond the threshold of a door require sight of you either.

Ok, so you can fly... how does that keep you safe from any proximity trap at all? How about a crushing hallway? Your minions go down the hall, trigger the trap and now you're locked in a hallway that is collapsing on you. Still dead because your method of detecting traps is to set them off. CR 3 burning hands trap positioned on the other side of a door set to trigger whenever it's Detect Life spell turns up any living thing entering (absolutely a feasible trap in a Necromancer's tower, why would it zorch it's own minions?). Sorry, but your spiderclimb and 24/7 flight aren't protecting you from this and these are pretty common or very reasonable encounters that ordinarily would be little issue, but in this situation are an issue.

As I showcased before; no, the enemy doesn't need to necessarily be able to spot you in order to affect you. A ghast, for instance, just sickens you for 1d6+4 minutes just by being within 15 feet of you. At CR 3, you're probably not going to have a Fort save that can resist a DC 15 with your innate -5 penalty for being at 1 con. Also, Entropic Warding does not prevent you from being detected by scent, on from being tracked by it. So guard dogs, Tome Of Battle adherents of the Tiger Claw discipline, pretty much any animal... they'll all be able to know you're there and, eventually, sus you out. This does nothing to protect you from blind sight, invisibility purge, Tremmorsense, true seeing, etc. These aren't exactly uncommon. Bats have blindsense, so they'll wreck you. a centipede swarm has tremmorsense, so your spiderclimb isn't going to be saving you from them. Invisibility Purge is a low level spell and by the time you can have invisibility up, you have the chance to run in to any number of creatures with it. Same with see invis.

And you're talking about creating undead minions. If you stay in any locale long enough, you're probably going to irritate the local Good Peopletm church. That means they're going to at least know someone is creating undead and that they themselves remain more or less unseen while they go about their business. Local clerics, paladins, and adepts will probably hire on the assistance of some do-gooder fighters, wizards, sorcerers, etc to find out what is going on and put a stop to it. Even a reasonable suspicion of invisibility at play is going to do a couple of things; clue the spellcasters in to have see invis or invisbility purge prepared (or in scroll/wand form), have dispel magic prepared (because... you know making undead isn't something non-spellcasters typically can do), and have ranged weapons (because flight is a b**** and since the perp is unseen, flight is a possibility). Yeah... not really tailoring anything against you specifically, these are all generalities that I would make as a player if I heard this kind of info from a local church wanting to be rid of an undead nuisance (granted, as far as me as a player goes I always have some method of detecting invisibility and hitting flying targets, be that my own flight or a ranged weapon).

But more about those "I don't need to see you" saving throws. What about a situation like the one in The Sunless Citadel where, say, a Magmin has been bound to a reservoir or some kind to permanently power a water boiler (because this preppy wizard loves hot bathes... definitely not thinking about Howel from Howel's Moving Castle...) The container radiates a magical aura, but the mechanism to open it is very complex. What do you do? Just ignore it? As soon as you open it (because your minions can't) you have to Fort Save (DC 12) or take 1d6 fire damage.

All I'm trying to get at is that, while good, your idea has holes in it that are far from unreasonable to encounter or even expect in an adventure. If you can find a way to actually prevent those situations from happening to you, then you'll probably be fine.

[The_Jette]

I just want to build a Druid for this situation. It even makes sense in a roleplay aspect, since the character with a 1 Con would be sickly and weak their entire lives. The first time they took the form of an animal, they would feel healthy and strong. It would be an experience that would change them, and forever leave them searching for the most powerful form to take, never leaving animal form unless they have to. Since the character build is for level 10, they could cast spells in animal form, rest in animal form, essentially never have to leave form unless they have a reason to be in their sickly humanoid form. And, then, if they want to, they can just pop back into animal form. Running around as a tiger is a lot more fun than running around as a humanoid who would die if they were within a hundred miles of a town that had a single member who had caught a bad cold. Plus, at level 10 you have enough wbl to buy an item that lets you either talk as an animal, or telepathically communicate with one or more of your party members.

[SangoProduction]

Reminder: Even if an effect would normally change the stats, Constitution remains 1.

[MR_Anderson]

*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

Starting with a personal insult tends to make people think your argument can’t stand on its own. I forgive you, but you should probably remove the personal attacks.


*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

A wizard could be invisible and flying/levitating, I know that tends to be my preference as a wizard. Improved invisibility and flying on any caster or ranged fighter can wreck havoc on most things you might want to face, if you have time to prepare well it is usually a lopsided fight.


*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

I am talking about a level 10 Wizard with a 1 Constitution dying to a level 9 Wizard casting Magic Missile and rolling all 1’s, not your character casting them.


*scrub the post, scrub the quote*

Our table is not different than most tables, except that our group has been around since 1st edition. Trying to ostracize what happens at one group and tossing the whole point when RAW provides a means for xp other than just fighting monsters.

It isn’t that I disagree with the mech idea, it is that I disagree with going in and not coming out. It is like a fighter that never takes off his full plate armor, to which he takes a penalty.

The question that I think you need to consider is, “At your table, do you only get xp for defeating monsters, or do you earn xp in other ways?”

At our table there are multiple ways to earn xp, and it is RAW, some of those ways are not possible staying in a box.


:smallconfused: Traveling inside a fortified carriage that you can exit anytime, and being ferried around by powerful monsters you are in full control of is worse than prison conditions?

I guess I have the thought process of an assassin, that you don’t attack when it is most protected, but instead when the target is most susceptible to an attack. You would wait until the character comes out of the box, which means the box idea doesn’t work unless it is permanent. I mean people were talking about emptying buckets and food delivery. Under those circumstances the character would be living in worse than prison conditions.


Could you elaborate on how a player who learns, prepares, and casts spells that let him acquire long duration monsters, and then learns, prepares, and casts long duration buffs on said monsters at the start of each day, and uses his wealth to purchase a mundane object that grants him full cover, is "not playing their character"?

I mentioned above about the different ways xp can be earned. This is a RPG, and while each player can do it differently in this situation, there would have to be an impact of the role playing of a character that never leaves a box. This would create a psychological issue unless something is done to prevent the character from suffering separation and confinement mental issues. If the player doesn’t incorporate something to offset the issues, or doesn’t Role Play this issue, he/she isn’t playing the character.

Yes, low health drives the character in to a box. That is Role Playing, now RP never leaving a box.


Out of curiosity, what do you disagree about the mech thing? The wizard built the mech. The wizard uses the mech to adventure. How is that "not playing their character" as well? Seems to me the player is trying to play a mech pilot. Why is playing a mech pilot "not playing their character?"

Mentioned above that it isn’t the whole idea that I have a problem with, it is the never coming out.

I hope that helps clarify my xp penalty comment.

[noob]

Starting with a personal insult tends to make people think your argument can’t stand on its own. I forgive you, but you should probably remove the personal attacks.



A wizard could be invisible and flying/levitating, I know that tends to be my preference as a wizard. Improved invisibility and flying on any caster or ranged fighter can wreck havoc on most things you might want to face, if you have time to prepare well it is usually a lopsided fight.



I am talking about a level 10 Wizard with a 1 Constitution dying to a level 9 Wizard casting Magic Missile and rolling all 1’s, not your character casting them.



Our table is not different than most tables, except that our group has been around since 1st edition. Trying to ostracize what happens at one group and tossing the whole point when RAW provides a means for xp other than just fighting monsters.

It isn’t that I disagree with the mech idea, it is that I disagree with going in and not coming out. It is like a fighter that never takes off his full plate armor, to which he takes a penalty.

The question that I think you need to consider is, “At your table, do you only get xp for defeating monsters, or do you earn xp in other ways?”

At our table there are multiple ways to earn xp, and it is RAW, some of those ways are not possible staying in a box.



I guess I have the thought process of an assassin, that you don’t attack when it is most protected, but instead when the target is most susceptible to an attack. You would wait until the character comes out of the box, which means the box idea doesn’t work unless it is permanent. I mean people were talking about emptying buckets and food delivery. Under those circumstances the character would be living in worse than prison conditions.



I mentioned above about the different ways xp can be earned. This is a RPG, and while each player can do it differently in this situation, there would have to be an impact of the role playing of a character that never leaves a box. This would create a psychological issue unless something is done to prevent the character from suffering separation and confinement mental issues. If the player doesn’t incorporate something to offset the issues, or doesn’t Role Play this issue, he/she isn’t playing the character.

Yes, low health drives the character in to a box. That is Role Playing, now RP never leaving a box.



Mentioned above that it isn’t the whole idea that I have a problem with, it is the never coming out.

I hope that helps clarify my xp penalty comment.
Get an orb of scrying and you are now role playing the average modern days nerd in a box.

[MR_Anderson]

Get an orb of scrying and you are now role playing the average modern days nerd in a box.

Correct, and thus more evidence to prove that there are mental impacts on the character or development of the character. 😀

[noob]

Correct, and thus more evidence to prove that there are mental impacts on the character or development of the character. 😀

Maybe it was all cyclical: they got 1 con by sitting all day in a box then because they had 1 con they sat all day in a box?

[MR_Anderson]

Maybe it was all cyclical: they got 1 con by sitting all day in a box then because they had 1 con they sat all day in a box?

Considering the Constitution is a “1” and not a “3” and that nothing can be to increase it tells me it is a magic curse or intervention of a powerful entity.

However, I like the out of the box thinking and placing him in a cylinder!

[Gruftzwerg]

Ok, how do you propose you bypass a locked chest with a magical trap inside of it? Pretty much any magical trap will do. Do you just not want to open any chests? How about any locked door with a proximity trap on the other side? None of your minions can open locked doors and whether mindless undead can open chests is honestly debatable. From what I can tell, nothing gives them agency to be able to manipulate latches, knobs, wheels, slides, etc that might be holding a chest shut (with or without a lock). They definitely can't search the remaining contents of chests or other furniture for secret compartments that might hold more treasure, and might also be trapped as well. Neither a trap inside of a chest or beyond the threshold of a door require sight of you either.

Ok, so you can fly... how does that keep you safe from any proximity trap at all? How about a crushing hallway? Your minions go down the hall, trigger the trap and now you're locked in a hallway that is collapsing on you. Still dead because your method of detecting traps is to set them off. CR 3 burning hands trap positioned on the other side of a door set to trigger whenever it's Detect Life spell turns up any living thing entering (absolutely a feasible trap in a Necromancer's tower, why would it zorch it's own minions?). Sorry, but your spiderclimb and 24/7 flight aren't protecting you from this and these are pretty common or very reasonable encounters that ordinarily would be little issue, but in this situation are an issue.

As I showcased before; no, the enemy doesn't need to necessarily be able to spot you in order to affect you. A ghast, for instance, just sickens you for 1d6+4 minutes just by being within 15 feet of you. At CR 3, you're probably not going to have a Fort save that can resist a DC 15 with your innate -5 penalty for being at 1 con. Also, Entropic Warding does not prevent you from being detected by scent, on from being tracked by it. So guard dogs, Tome Of Battle adherents of the Tiger Claw discipline, pretty much any animal... they'll all be able to know you're there and, eventually, sus you out. This does nothing to protect you from blind sight, invisibility purge, Tremmorsense, true seeing, etc. These aren't exactly uncommon. Bats have blindsense, so they'll wreck you. a centipede swarm has tremmorsense, so your spiderclimb isn't going to be saving you from them. Invisibility Purge is a low level spell and by the time you can have invisibility up, you have the chance to run in to any number of creatures with it. Same with see invis.
The competition has the rule:
"Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party, or else you are at severe risk of having assassins jump out at you with no one to assist."
Why should I stand near a possible trapped door or chest when my minions/teammates open it?
I have no reason to get into fights. Summon Swarm has 25ft +5ft/2lvl range. Enough to avoid most nasty stuff until we get undead minions.
Scent only has 30ft range base and up to 60ft with the perfect wind conditions, 15ft when you stand in the opposite direction. I think that this is manageable.
If you didn't notice, the build picks Darkstalker to avoid being automatically spotted by special sight/scent ("When you hide, creatures with blindsense, blindsight, scent, or tremorsense must make a Listen check or a Spot check (whichever DC is higher) to notice you, just as sighted creatures would make Spot checks to detect you. ")




And you're talking about creating undead minions. If you stay in any locale long enough, you're probably going to irritate the local Good Peopletm church. That means they're going to at least know someone is creating undead and that they themselves remain more or less unseen while they go about their business. Local clerics, paladins, and adepts will probably hire on the assistance of some do-gooder fighters, wizards, sorcerers, etc to find out what is going on and put a stop to it. Even a reasonable suspicion of invisibility at play is going to do a couple of things; clue the spellcasters in to have see invis or invisbility purge prepared (or in scroll/wand form), have dispel magic prepared (because... you know making undead isn't something non-spellcasters typically can do), and have ranged weapons (because flight is a b**** and since the perp is unseen, flight is a possibility). Yeah... not really tailoring anything against you specifically, these are all generalities that I would make as a player if I heard this kind of info from a local church wanting to be rid of an undead nuisance (granted, as far as me as a player goes I always have some method of detecting invisibility and hitting flying targets, be that my own flight or a ranged weapon).
Why should I create my undead minion of random dead townspeople? Normally players tend to create undead of their victims, "the bad guys that no one misses" or imho more common: Monsters. And not every lil town church has the caster lvl to even have the detect spells to locate you and you undead out. Tell me by which means just the mere presence of a necromancer will cause a witch-hunt. We are not in a bad novel where the necromancer is always digging around the graveyard, causing the townsfolk to become upset..^^
And no, you aren't tailoring anything. Preparing see invisibility for no reason when you want to hunt a necromancer is normal. And I bet the caster won't cast it on himself as he would normally do it but instead cast it on the member with the highest spot and listen check, because invisible necromancers with the Darkstalker feat are such a common thing that every low lvl church is prepared for such situations. No, you aren't really trying hard here...


But more about those "I don't need to see you" saving throws. What about a situation like the one in The Sunless Citadel where, say, a Magmin has been bound to a reservoir or some kind to permanently power a water boiler (because this preppy wizard loves hot bathes... definitely not thinking about Howel from Howel's Moving Castle...) The container radiates a magical aura, but the mechanism to open it is very complex. What do you do? Just ignore it? As soon as you open it (because your minions can't) you have to Fort Save (DC 12) or take 1d6 fire damage.
Would you stop making your own rules for this competition (or make your own competition, just a kind suggestions here)?
"Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party"
I think my teammates should be able to cover this situation where this build comes a bit short and needs to stay in safe distance to cheer up his teammates. DRAMA (?).



All I'm trying to get at is that, while good, your idea has holes in it that are far from unreasonable to encounter or even expect in an adventure. If you can find a way to actually prevent those situations from happening to you, then you'll probably be fine.
Sorry but aside from ignoring the set rules for the competition, you are doing nothing but tailoring /nitpicking specific situations where the build could have problems, while assuming he has no party.
And since he has buddies, why would the enemies (e.g. church) first thought be "it must be an invisible necromancer hiding in the back of the adventuring party" instead of assuming that one of your buddies is the necromancer. Why?

[magicalmagicman]

A wizard could be invisible and flying/levitating, I know that tends to be my preference as a wizard. Improved invisibility and flying on any caster or ranged fighter can wreck havoc on most things you might want to face, if you have time to prepare well it is usually a lopsided fight.

1. Could you point to the rule that says flying ignores move silently checks?
2. There's no spell called improved invisibility. There's a spell called Greater Invisibility, which has 1round/level duration. Which leads to...
3. How is this wizard stalking the PC with such short duration spells?


Our table is not different than most tables, except that our group has been around since 1st edition. Trying to ostracize what happens at one group and tossing the whole point when RAW provides a means for xp other than just fighting monsters.

You can get xp for overcoming out of combat challenges. But... how is this related to you cutting the combat xp reward for a wizard who uses his wealth to buy a mundane object that grants him fullcover?


It isn’t that I disagree with the mech idea, it is that I disagree with going in and not coming out. It is like a fighter that never takes off his full plate armor, to which he takes a penalty.

If the fighter wants to take the penalty, then that's the fighter's perogative. Just like if the wizard wants to forgo casting spells in combat by being in a box, thats his perogative. Why are you penalizing the wizard's xp rewards and not the fighter's?


The question that I think you need to consider is, “At your table, do you only get xp for defeating monsters, or do you earn xp in other ways?”

At our table there are multiple ways to earn xp, and it is RAW, some of those ways are not possible staying in a box.

Could you explain how exactly "gaining xp in other ways" justifies you penalizing a players' combat xp reward for utilizing a mundane object that grants him fullcover?


I guess I have the thought process of an assassin, that you don’t attack when it is most protected, but instead when the target is most susceptible to an attack. You would wait until the character comes out of the box, which means the box idea doesn’t work unless it is permanent. I mean people were talking about emptying buckets and food delivery. Under those circumstances the character would be living in worse than prison conditions.

1. The box is a mundane object therefore permanent.
2. You are right now talking about a wizard exiting his box = death by a wizard who somehow obtained infinite duration flying, somehow obtained infinite duration greater invisibility, somehow gets to completely ignore move silently checks, and targets the wizard and only the wizard instead of other party members. If you're gonna go this far why don't you just go all the way and say your wizard kills the entire party in their sleep?
3. Warforged and Necropolitan can legimately stay inside a box without food delivery or buckets.
4. There are people in real life who legitimately never leaves their room and gets food delivered to them as long as they have an internet connection. Instead of a internet connection this wizard can travel the entire world with powerful monsters he has full control of. How is this worse than prison conditions?
5. Even if it is worse than prison conditions, how does this result in a combat XP penalty?

What is your justification of penalizing the wizard's combat xp rewards for using a mundane object that grants him fullcover?




I mentioned above about the different ways xp can be earned. This is a RPG, and while each player can do it differently in this situation, there would have to be an impact of the role playing of a character that never leaves a box. This would create a psychological issue unless something is done to prevent the character from suffering separation and confinement mental issues. If the player doesn’t incorporate something to offset the issues, or doesn’t Role Play this issue, he/she isn’t playing the character.

1. The wizard can talk.
2. The wizard has monsters he can use to interact with the world.
Why can't the wizard roleplay inside the box?

Also, are you telling the player what his own character's personality is and telling him what to do? If you're gonna do that, what's the point of even having a player? Not to mention Agoraphobia is a real condition and its the player's choice to give his character this condition, not yours. You don't get to tell a player how to RP his character just so you can kill him.


Yes, low health drives the character in to a box. That is Role Playing, now RP never leaving a box.

Simple. The wizard is basically a sentient inanimate object that can talk, cast spells, and summon monsters of either permanent duration or 1/day duration and orders them around. Why are you saying such characters can't roleplay? Some of my favorite fictional characters are sentient weapons or brains in a jar.


Mentioned above that it isn’t the whole idea that I have a problem with, it is the never coming out.

I don't have a problem with it.

You claim that characters that can speak, cast spells, and order powerful monsters around can't roleplay even though they can.
You somehow interpreted the rules of earning xp outside of combat as a justification of giving a wizard a penalty in combat xp gain because he interacts with the world with monsters instead of fireballs.

Why do you have a problem with it?


Correct, and thus more evidence to prove that there are mental impacts on the character or development of the character. 😀

Why can't nerds in a box "roleplay", and deserve combat xp penalties for using robots to carry him around and interact with the world?

One of my favorite characters in One Punch Man never leaves his fortress and interacts with the world solely through remote controlled robots wielding powerful weapons. And he is considered one of the most impactful characters in the setting.

[Elysiume]

Can the debate of whether "go into an impenetrable box" is a viable approach get moved to another thread? Seems like it's derailing this thread and I am, frankly, not interested in that discussion, but I'll defer to the OP.

vv: as an edit, to avoid further cluttering the thread: I find it uninteresting from top to bottom. I'll just stop reading the thread; don't mind me.

[magicalmagicman]

Can the debate of whether "go into an impenetrable box" is a viable approach get moved to another thread? Seems like it's derailing this thread and I am, frankly, not interested in that discussion, but I'll defer to the OP.

We're not talking about whether its viable or not. It is viable, and other posters have provided even better methods such as becoming incorporeal and phasing through the ground or solid objects.

We're just trying to make sense of one DM who claims anyone who employs these strategies are "not playing their character", are subject to combat xp penalties because... you can earn xp outside of combat?, and demands the player get out of the box because of psychological and mental issues (psychological and mental issues can force a character to never leave a box...) just so that he can get a powerful wizard with custom homebrew spells (I assume they're homebrew to last so long and ignore move silently checks) to kill said player character and not the rest of the party.


vv: as an edit, to avoid further cluttering the thread: I find it uninteresting from top to bottom. I'll just stop reading the thread; don't mind me.

The box is the solution to the OP's challenge. Solutions are often uninteresting.

[Elysiume]

The box is the solution to the OP's challenge. Solutions are often uninteresting.
I'll just make another post since you responded to my edit directly. No game I've been in would have allowed that, so I don't consider it a solution at all. I'm not interested in reading (or taking part in) a debate about whether it should be allowed (or allowed but penalized, etc.). I was hoping that, by making a more neutral post, I could nudge the thread back to a discussion I was actually interested in reading without furthering a discussion I don't care about. Disregard this post from further discussion — I won't be back to this thread — but since you explicitly addressed my edit, I wanted to respond.

[magicalmagicman]

I'll just make another post since you responded to my edit directly. No game I've been in would have allowed that, so I don't consider it a solution at all. I'm not interested in reading (or taking part in) a debate about whether it should be allowed (or allowed but penalized, etc.). I was hoping that, by making a more neutral post, I could nudge the thread back to a discussion I was actually interested in reading without furthering a discussion I don't care about. Disregard this post from further discussion — I won't be back to this thread — but since you explicitly addressed my edit, I wanted to respond.

I made a Psion that created a Dragon Statue shaped like Yu-Gi-Oh's Red Nova Dragon out of bronzewood using Psionic Minor Creation. She pretended to be an Ancient Greatwyrm trapped in a dragon statue (with 0 ranks in bluff so no one bought it), and she was carried around with summoned Quori or Astral Constructs.

Everyone at my table had a blast. My character earned the name "crazy lady in box". And in some encounters the box was destroyed and I was forced to teleport out. Any creature with power attack is gonna destroy the box in a turn or two.

If your tables don't allow such characters then all I can say is you and your DM aren't very good at handling player creativity. Perhaps a way to improve yourself is to actually play test the strategies in question before dismissing them as OP?

This reminds me of people who claimed reserve feats are broken and OP without playtesting them either.

[gogogome]

I'll just make another post since you responded to my edit directly. No game I've been in would have allowed that, so I don't consider it a solution at all. I'm not interested in reading (or taking part in) a debate about whether it should be allowed (or allowed but penalized, etc.). I was hoping that, by making a more neutral post, I could nudge the thread back to a discussion I was actually interested in reading without furthering a discussion I don't care about. Disregard this post from further discussion — I won't be back to this thread — but since you explicitly addressed my edit, I wanted to respond.

No one is arguing whether the box should or shouldn't be allowed. If you're gonna paraphrase an argument, get it right.

[Asmotherion]

Assuming the sum of HP is not 0, the best way I can think to make this Character Viable would be to give them a lot of immunitites and temporary HP through persisted spells.

Thus, the most viable class would probably be Cleric. The best thing I can think of at the time is the Pact Domain.

[Elysiume]

I made a Psion that created a Dragon Statue shaped like Yu-Gi-Oh's Red Nova Dragon out of bronzewood using Psionic Minor Creation. She pretended to be an Ancient Greatwyrm trapped in a dragon statue (with 0 ranks in bluff so no one bought it), and she was carried around with summoned Quori or Astral Constructs.

Everyone at my table had a blast. My character earned the name "crazy lady in box". And in some encounters the box was destroyed and I was forced to teleport out. Any creature with power attack is gonna destroy the box in a turn or two.

If your tables don't allow such characters then all I can say is you and your DM aren't very good at handling player creativity. Perhaps a way to improve yourself is to actually play test the strategies in question before dismissing them as OP?

This reminds me of people who claimed reserve feats are broken and OP without playtesting them either.I said I wasn't coming back to the thread, but I'm back because you're insulting me and everyone I play with. My mistake for actually looking at this thread again, but my curiosity got the better of me. Do not presume to speak for me, my tables, or anyone I play with. I did not say why this would not be allowed in my groups, because that's not what this thread is about. I do not take issue with what happens at your table. Do me the courtesy of not caring what happens at mine without casting aspersions at everyone I play with.

No one is arguing whether the box should or shouldn't be allowed. If you're gonna paraphrase an argument, get it right.I was actively avoiding the specifics of the argument because I wanted the discussion to move away from the box and I was trying to avoid weighing in on either side. I was being intentionally vague; it seemed like it would be more likely to nudge the discussion back toward what I was more interested in. That has, obviously, failed immensely.

[gogogome]

I was actively avoiding the specifics of the argument because I wanted the discussion to move away from the box and I was trying to avoid weighing in on either side. I was being intentionally vague; it seemed like it would be more likely to nudge the discussion back toward what I was more interested in. That has, obviously, failed immensely.

How is making up "specifics" "actively avoiding the specifics"? You're "actively making up specifics" not avoiding. You failed immensely because posters had to correct you several times. Perhaps if you got everything right the first time this off-topic discussion about how you don't give a **** about the box could've ended with your first post.

[Endarire]

Cloudkill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm) in 3.5 only works if a subject isn't immune to poison. Thus, poison immunity has even more value!

Also, Warforged!

And since Spheres were allowed, I recommend a Technician (base class) who stays in his mech.

[Ashiel]

So, you have 1 Constitution. Must still personally adventure, because reason. So no sitting in a demiplane. No standing 2 miles away, using phasing arrows. No Scry & Die. (So on, so forth.)
Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party, or else you are at severe risk of having assassins jump out at you with no one to assist.

Let's say...level 10. Any class. Any race. Any template (with no ECL buy off). So long as they don't get rid of Con. Feel free to make Con irrelevant, if you want / can, but must still have a Constitution score of 1.
Ruleset: 3.p; First Party / Spheres preferred. 3rd party allowed.

EDIT: Spells/Effects that change stats can not change Constitution.
Minimum HP from HD+Con is 1. And let's say we max out our Hit Die per level.
CLARIFICATION: You are part of a typical 4-man party, that, aside from you, isn't doing anything particularly special, but aren't incompetent.

What are your solutions to completing adventures without dying.
Here's a simple entry using Spheres of Power. Using a pathfinder human and 15 point buy.

Class: Hedgewitch w/ Martial and Green Magic traditions (tradition grants +1 combat talent every odd level and a 6 Int druid-style animal companion).
Race: Human (alternatively Elf for the lolz)
HP/Level: d8 = 12 hp at 10th level, or 30 hp maximized
Options: Trading 1/2 feats for Proficient combat talent progression (+1 combat talent every even level).
Martial Tradition: Custom tradition (2 equipment talents + 2 combat talents)
Point Buy (15): 9, 14, 1*, 14, 14, 14 (16)

The Bog-Warden
A frightful naturalist spellcaster that practices black magic and exerts her influence over beasts and bone. Though physically frail, the bog-warden seems to have an unnatural resilience against death, as her stiffened withered limbs seem to have deadened reactions to pain and blood loss. As she advances she learns to call upon ancestral spirits to serve her in the husks of the dead, binds planar beasts to her will, host a menagerie of exotic and dangerous beasts, and sport a collection of enthralled young men to do her bidding.

Party Role: The bog-warden is a hag-adventure bottled up as a player character. From very early on you will sport a lot of decent minions in the form of a powerful animal companion, tamed animals, and expendable undead, then move into bound celestial or fiendish animals or more exotic outsiders like fiends and humanoid cohorts (including magic cultists), which you will be able to direct as you desire. Along with your companions, you will use a mixture of magics that help control the battlefield and harass your foes. Remember that often your companions are better delegated to aiding your party rather than attacking directly (such as by providing mobile soft cover, flanking, aid-another, etc) and could be delegated to your friends if you trust them.

The Bog Warden gets a lot of skills (6 + Int modifier, and will gain bonus skill points in Handle Animal, Leadership, and Stealth a she progresses) and so can help to cover a variety of party roles, particularly where wilderness survival, magic, and social skills are concerned.

1st Level
We get 2 magic talents from Hedgewitch, 2 combat talents from our martial tradition, and 1 combat talent from martial hedgewitch.
For magic we take:

Protection with the Alternate Aegis and Limited Protection (Aegis) drawbacks granting the Missile Shield and Energy Resistance aegis.
Death with the Deathful Touch drawback granting Sustained Necromancy
Alteration sphere with the Lycanthropic and drawback (via human alternate racial feature)


For combat we take:

Armor Expert (+1 AC to armor)
Shield Expert (+1 AC to shield)
Berserker sphere
Beastmaster sphere with Tame package (grants +5 ranks of handle animal per beastmastery sphere)
Purposeful Training (beastmaster) talent


Bonus Feat (Human) Traded for Doppleganger-born alternate racial trait (granting the Alteration sphere with the lycanthropic drawback plus the Shifting disguise feat).

Summary
At 1st level we have 3 hit points (we're a commoner), a lot of skill points, and the ability to shapeshift to get a +10 bonus on disguise checks as we like (very witchy and that Alteration sphere will come in handy later on when we pick up Twisted Reanimation). We also have wild empathy and woodland stride. Our berserker sphere allows us to represent our unnaturally resilient bodies by permanently staying in the berserking state (-2 AC but +3 temporary hit points every round, +1 per BAB). This gives us effectively 6 starting hit points and 3 of them refresh every round. We start with average wealth (105 gp) so let's spend 20 gp on some leather barding for our animal companion, 17 gp on some leather armor and a heavy wooden shield for ourselves (giving us a 16 AC while berserking). That leaves 68 gp for adventuring supplies, animals, and masterwork tools (50 gp).

We can place an hour long buff on ourselves or our allies that prevents the first 6 points of damage from ranged attacks. Very useful for mitigating missile fire (such as goblins with their shortbows) and can really make certain difficult encounters (such as archer ambushes) trivial. Similar story with the energy resistance.

We have a 6 Int animal companion that will serve as our muscle. The type of animal companion is up to you. Personal favorites are boars (defensive) and large cats (offensive). Recommend trading half their normal feats for a proficient combat talent progression (+1 talent / 2 HD). Give them Berserker (for +4 the temporary Hp / round) for more durability and later Lancer (Impale can make it hard for enemies to escape your pet, and can cause heavy bleed damage). Big cats may prefer starting with Berserker and going Rending Claws (berserker, practitioner bestiary) instead of Lancer. Buy them some leather barding with your starting money to compensate for the AC penalty.

Additionally, we can tame up to 1 HD worth of animals and control up to 2 HD worth of undead. For this purpose I recommend buying some goats (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/herd-animals/goat/) (1 gp each). When you tame a goat you automatically train it for a purpose (such as combat) and can swap their feat for Extra Combat talent. You can once again grab berserker for more durability or go for something like duelist to make their horns cause bleed damage (they aren't really physically strong enough to justify the -2 penalty to attack to use lancer's impale). When your goats die, just reanimate them and keep using them.

Note: Using your goat defensively can be a good plan. Crouch behind your goat (+2 vs ranged attacks, -2 vs melee) and have your goat take a total defense. You get +6 net AC vs ranged attacks which is a good deal for you since you're squishy. So you can just bunker down behind your goat while you cast spells and your animal companion does the work.

Of course you don't have to wait for one of your animals to die to reanimate something. If your party kills some baddies, just reanimate those instead and have more disposable minions.

2nd Level
We get 1 magic talent, 1 combat talent, and 1 hedgewitch secret.

Magic

Conjuration with the Caller drawback granting the Call Planar Creature talent.

Combat

Guardian sphere with Indifferent Defender drawback granting Greater Delayed Damage

Hedgewitch Secret

Share Health: You can take damage up to half your health as an immediate action to heal your animal companion for an equal amount.

Summary
At this level our base hit points increase to 4, and our temporary hp from berserker increases to +4, and we gain a 4 point delayed damage pool. This gives us a pretty respectable boost in our survival capabilities. Further, just before our next turn begins, if we have any temporary hit points from berserker and no delayed damage (e.g. we weren't hit this round), we can spend an immediate action to heal our companion for our remaining temporary hit points. This also allows us to heal our animal companion to full health between encounters.

We can now also control 2 HD worth of tamed creatures (so we can either add more goats or get a bigger animal) and summon planar creatures up to 1 HD. Good choices for these are celestial or fiendish animals as they tend to have very poor Charisma scores and are not likely to resist you. You can also use your Tame ability on such creatures in Pathfinder to get some exotic pets (doesn't even cost extra HD unless the creature has at least 5HD).

Level 3
We get 1 magic talent, 1 combat talent, and 1 feat.

Magic

Diagram (conjuration) (call outsiders better)

Combat

Greater Trainer I (+1 HD / rank of Handle Animal)

Feat

Advanced Circles (improves diagram)


Summary
We now have 5 base hit points, 5 temporary hit points from berserker, and a delayed damage pool of 8 hit points.

We can now control 4 HD worth of undead, 6 HD worth of tamed animals, and 2 HD worth of bound minions (2 HD celestial/fiendish animals, small elementals, and lantern archons are good choices) and the chances for them escaping or beating our Charisma checks are mostly nil with the Diagram + Advanced Circles.

Worth noting, is that oxen are pretty cheap and share statistics with Aurochs (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/animals/herd-animals/aurochs/) so buying a couple of oxen for 15 gp and training them to be your warbeasts will take you very far. All together you should be sporting 2 war oxen, a small elemental or lantern archon, your animal companion, and up to 4 HD worth of undead. If you're more of a dungeon delver, swapping the two ox for three riding dogs is acceptable. In both cases, look to Berserker and Lancer for simple but effective options for them.

Level 4
We get 1 magic talent, 1 combat talent, and 1 secret

Magic

Mind sphere with the Blatant Side Effects drawback selecting (Enthrall giving you a hypnotic charm and suggestion)
Destruction sphere with Energy Focus (force) and Shape Focus (Explosive Orb) granting the Explosive Orb and Invigorating blast talents

Combat

Greater Trainer II (+1 HD / rank of Handle Animal)

Secret

Extra Magic Talent


Summary
We now have 6 hit points, 6 temporary hit points per round, 12 delayed damage points, can control 6 HD worth of undead (such as a pair of undead oxen or trio of undead riding dogs), can now train 12 HD worth of animals, and control up to 3HD of bound creatures. You can apply a charm effect from Mind to automatically slap your bound creatures with an a charm or suggestion with a +2 to DC ignoring their SR and such (use a powerful suggestion for "agree to my offer" for lolz). You can now bind things like Imps as your minions as well which can serve as excellent spies and surprisingly tanky minions (fast healing and DR). You can use charms and suggestions to extract information and stuff for your party.

A new big trick you now have is Invigorating Blast with Explosive Orb. For 3 spell points you can grant all allies within a 10 ft. radius burst 3d4 temporary hit points that last for 1 hour. Have a big group hug with your party and let it rip to provide even more tankiness to yourself, your living minions, and your party with more virtual health. It's a nice trick.

Our animal companion may get a 4th level advancement depending on what companion was chosen.

----
More coming later. Gotta cut the post short for now.

Build Pros
- You are a decent skill monkey and party face.
- You are surprisingly difficult to kill given your circumstances.
- You provide a lot of total HP to the party in the form of meat shields and potentially a decent damage output increase in the form of flanks, aids, natural attacks, tramples, and eventually spells.
- Bound outsiders can provide pretty solid utility (imps are good spies and source of poison, lantern archons can laser people and cast continual flame, eventually you can take control of outsiders with magical powers or useful features like constant true seeing).
- All minions are relatively expendable.
- The build is remarkably frugal. You can spend your money on improving your defenses. I recommend buying consumables and upgrading your defenses as often as possible. Carrying some smokesticks is a pretty good idea.
- You can play the game as an RTS and gift cool mounts to everyone.

Build Cons
- You're still kinda squishy.
- You don't really deal damage or kill enemies directly.
- Somewhat vulnerable to AoEs.
- Get good at planning and taking your turns quick or your party will hate you.

Future
At higher levels you'll begin to branch out into more utility, eventually picking up Leadership to gain some cohorts and cultists to fill the role of your ethralled warrior boy toys and witchy acolytes, who can further provide more oomph and utility to you and your party. You will end up buying off the limited protection and energy focus drawbacks to give you an offensive magic option and secure your summoning circles with barriers. Eventually you will grab the Permanent Undead, Summon Spirit, and Anthromorphic form talents and the Twisted Reanimation talent, allowing you to give all your controlled undead 6 Intelligence (and thus also feats and skill points) and revive dead characters and stuff them into undead bodies (skeletons and zombies have no level adjustment when used as bodies). You can also dip into Nature to push the druidic or animal speaking stuff further, or even break into the Life and Enhancement spheres to become more of a party support (if you do, taking the mass talents is pretty much a must).

[SangoProduction]

Have to admire the effort of making a build and explaining your reasoning.

[MR_Anderson]

If someone played a character as just another character in a box, I’d ding them on xp for not playing their character. I’m sorry, were talking worse than prison conditions. I also disagree with the staying inside a mech 24/7.


Out of curiosity, what do you disagree about the mech thing? The wizard built the mech. The wizard uses the mech to adventure. How is that "not playing their character" as well? Seems to me the player is trying to play a mech pilot. Why is playing a mech pilot "not playing their character?"

Mentioned above that it isn’t the whole idea that I have a problem with, it is the never coming out.

I hope that helps clarify my xp penalty comment.



1. Could you point to the rule that says flying ignores move silently checks?
2. There's no spell called improved invisibility. There's a spell called Greater Invisibility, which has 1round/level duration. Which leads to...
3. How is this wizard stalking the PC with such short duration spells?

1. I never said flying ignores move silently.

2. This is the forum for 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, and D20. Is there not a spell named “Improved Invisibility” in 3rd edition? Is there not a practical equivalent in 3.5?

3. Are you not able to craft an item to use as needed? Can you not craft an item to make such a spell effect permanent? Can you not scry on the box? Can you not Teleport nearby? Can you not stack Improved Invisibility on Invisibility? Can you not summon your own support?

You have accused me and others of not being able to handle player creativity, yet sticking with simple stuff from the PHB & DMG there are low level/equal level tactics that can take on such a tactic as a man inside a box.


If your tables don't allow such characters then all I can say is you and your DM aren't very good at handling player creativity. Perhaps a way to improve yourself is to actually play test the strategies in question before dismissing them as OP?


You can get xp for overcoming out of combat challenges. But... how is this related to you cutting the combat xp reward for a wizard who uses his wealth to buy a mundane object that grants him fullcover?

Where did I ever say combat XP?

I actually implied otherwise.


If the fighter wants to take the penalty, then that's the fighter's perogative. Just like if the wizard wants to forgo casting spells in combat by being in a box, thats his perogative. Why are you penalizing the wizard's xp rewards and not the fighter's?

Where did I ever say combat XP?

Besides, you can summon, buff others, go to Hawaii during Combat, and return to loot and still get combat XP.


Could you explain how exactly "gaining xp in other ways" justifies you penalizing a players' combat xp reward for utilizing a mundane object that grants him fullcover?

Where did I ever say combat XP?

Do you see where you have gone slightly wrong yet?


1. The box is a mundane object therefore permanent.
2. You are right now talking about a wizard exiting his box = death by a wizard who somehow obtained infinite duration flying, somehow obtained infinite duration greater invisibility, somehow gets to completely ignore move silently checks, and targets the wizard and only the wizard instead of other party members. If you're gonna go this far why don't you just go all the way and say your wizard kills the entire party in their sleep?
3. Warforged and Necropolitan can legimately stay inside a box without food delivery or buckets.
4. There are people in real life who legitimately never leaves their room and gets food delivered to them as long as they have an internet connection. Instead of a internet connection this wizard can travel the entire world with powerful monsters he has full control of. How is this worse than prison conditions?
5. Even if it is worse than prison conditions, how does this result in a combat XP penalty?

Where did I ever say combat XP?

All the other stuff is irrelevant, except #3...make a built and help the OP.


What is your justification of penalizing the wizard's combat xp rewards for using a mundane object that grants him fullcover?

Where did I ever say combat XP?

What’s your justification for being so aggressive towards me?


1. The wizard can talk.
2. The wizard has monsters he can use to interact with the world.
Why can't the wizard roleplay inside the box?

I mentioned above about the different ways xp can be earned. This is a RPG, and while each player can do it differently in this situation, there would have to be an impact of the role playing of a character that never leaves a box. This would create a psychological issue unless something is done to prevent the character from suffering separation and confinement mental issues. If the player doesn’t incorporate something to offset the issues, or doesn’t Role Play this issue, he/she isn’t playing the character.

Yes, low health drives the character in to a box. That is Role Playing, now RP never leaving a box.

Also, are you telling the player what his own character's personality is and telling him what to do? If you're gonna do that, what's the point of even having a player? Not to mention Agoraphobia is a real condition and its the player's choice to give his character this condition, not yours. You don't get to tell a player how to RP his character just so you can kill him.

According to the forum rules we are to give the benefit of doubt that other people read our posts. I will not accuse you of not reading what I said, but again it is above in the spoiler “I never said he couldn’t.” so you can just confirm I never said what you are accusing me of saying.


Simple. The wizard is basically a sentient inanimate object that can talk, cast spells, and summon monsters of either permanent duration or 1/day duration and orders them around. Why are you saying such characters can't roleplay? Some of my favorite fictional characters are sentient weapons or brains in a jar.

Again I never said that, I’ll refer you back to the Spoiler “I never said he couldn’t.”


I don't have a problem with it.

You claim that characters that can speak, cast spells, and order powerful monsters around can't roleplay even though they can.
You somehow interpreted the rules of earning xp outside of combat as a justification of giving a wizard a penalty in combat xp gain because he interacts with the world with monsters instead of fireballs.

Why do you have a problem with it?

Again I never said that, I’ll refer you back to the Spoiler “I never said he couldn’t.”

Oh, BTW, where did I ever say combat XP?


Why can't nerds in a box "roleplay", and deserve combat xp penalties for using robots to carry him around and interact with the world?

One of my favorite characters in One Punch Man never leaves his fortress and interacts with the world solely through remote controlled robots wielding powerful weapons. And he is considered one of the most impactful characters in the setting.

Again I never said that, I’ll refer you back to the Spoiler “I never said he couldn’t.”

Did you find where I ever said combat XP?


We're not talking about whether its viable or not. It is viable, and other posters have provided even better methods such as becoming incorporeal and phasing through the ground or solid objects.

We're just trying to make sense of one DM who claims anyone who employs these strategies are "not playing their character", are subject to combat xp penalties because... you can earn xp outside of combat?, and demands the player get out of the box because of psychological and mental issues (psychological and mental issues can force a character to never leave a box...) just so that he can get a powerful wizard with custom homebrew spells (I assume they're homebrew to last so long and ignore move silently checks) to kill said player character and not the rest of the party.

The box is the solution to the OP's challenge. Solutions are often uninteresting.

Again I never said that, I’ll refer you back to the Spoiler “I never said he couldn’t.”

Still waiting for where I ever said combat XP?

As stated above everything I have mentioned in regards to your Prince Albert in a can idea has all been straight out of PHB or DMG and useable by a wizard a 9th level which is less than the 10th level suggest of the OP. Yes I used a 3.0 edition name of a spell, but you knew exactly what I was referring to, so please don’t lie and call what I said homebrew.


I made a Psion that created a Dragon Statue shaped like Yu-Gi-Oh's Red Nova Dragon out of bronzewood using Psionic Minor Creation. She pretended to be an Ancient Greatwyrm trapped in a dragon statue (with 0 ranks in bluff so no one bought it), and she was carried around with summoned Quori or Astral Constructs.

Everyone at my table had a blast. My character earned the name "crazy lady in box". And in some encounters the box was destroyed and I was forced to teleport out. Any creature with power attack is gonna destroy the box in a turn or two.

If your tables don't allow such characters then all I can say is you and your DM aren't very good at handling player creativity. Perhaps a way to improve yourself is to actually play test the strategies in question before dismissing them as OP?

This reminds me of people who claimed reserve feats are broken and OP without playtesting them either.

Crazy Lady in a Box? So you are admitting that to live in a box is not normal and needs to be role played?

As for insulting others because of what may or may not happen at their table, is still an insult. With almost 40 years of playing at our table and 3 Generations of Friends of Family playing, your suggestion of a character in a box has been seen at our table.


I said I wasn't coming back to the thread, but I'm back because you're insulting me and everyone I play with.

I noticed my initial post with a suggested solution didn’t receive any discussion. Ignore their insults, and take a look at what I posted. I’d enjoy a rational person’s perspective.

[magicalmagicman]

1. I never said flying ignores move silently.
You replied to a post (now scrubbed) that said your invisibility stalking doesn't work because of move silently checks, with "and flying/levitating". So I made the logical conclusion that you sought to overcome the move silently issue with "flying/levitating."


2. This is the forum for 3rd Edition, 3.5 Edition, and D20. Is there not a spell named “Improved Invisibility” in 3rd edition? Is there not a practical equivalent in 3.5?

There is. It's called Greater Invisibility just like I said.


Can you not craft an item to make such a spell effect permanent?
Spell level1 × caster level × 2,000 gp
4 x 7 x 2000
56,000gp for a continuous Greater Invisibility.
Wealth by level for 9th level PC wizards is 36,000gp.
Wealth by level for 9th level NPC wizards is 12,000gp.


You have accused me and others of not being able to handle player creativity, yet sticking with simple stuff from the PHB & DMG there are low level/equal level tactics that can take on such a tactic as a man inside a box.
Giving a 9th level NPC wizard a 56,000gp item to counter a box strategy is proof of your ability to take on such tactics?
:smallconfused:

I know from playtesting that the box strategy is far from invincible. Any creature with power attack or an adamantine weapon (3,000gp as opposed to your 56,000gp) breaks it open in a turn.

Yet your method of approach to a player using the box is
1. Give the NPC wizard almost 5 times his wealth limit to kill the PC's wizard and only the wizard and not the rest of the party while they sleep.
2. Employ Scry and Die tactics to kill the PC's wizard and only the wizard and not the rest of the party while they sleep.
3. Try to force "separation and mental issues" onto the PC to force him out of the box.

You can see how someone who used the box in a past game would be infuriated with a DM resorting to what you resorted to?



Where did I ever say combat XP?

Seems I made an error. It's a good thing that I was specific so our misunderstanding could be pointed out and cleared up.


What’s your justification for being so aggressive towards me?

I don't think I was that aggressive. If I was I apologize. Me responding to each and every one of your quotes with the same phrase probably made it look more aggressive than I wanted.

But a DM resorting to Scry and Die tactics or giving NPCs almost 5 times their wealth limit solely to assassinate a single PC employing a strategy that could be defeated by a single feat or a 3,000gp item is gonna aggravate people.


Crazy Lady in a Box? So you are admitting that to live in a box is not normal and needs to be role played?

No. The "crazy" part came from the character claiming she is an Ancient Prismatic Greatwyrm to every single character she met. The "crazy lady in box" came as a result of our party members having fun exposing my character's lie.
"I AM AN ANCIENT PRISMATIC GREATWYRM TRAPPED IN A-"
"she crazy lady in box"

None of our party members even batted an eye to a psion hiding in a box because, as veterans of the system, we all know wizards (and psions) die to a goblin sneeze. I personally lost a wizard to a goblin archer who beat me in initiative, and a sorcerer to a fireball. My table laughed when I brought in the box and they thought it was genius.


As for insulting others because of what may or may not happen at their table, is still an insult. With almost 40 years of playing at our table and 3 Generations of Friends of Family playing, your suggestion of a character in a box has been seen at our table.

1. I have doubts that you did see it because your "solutions" were giving a NPC character 5 times their wealth limit and employing scry and die tactics.
2. It's not my suggestion it's newguydude1's. In fact one of his earlier posts was the inspiration for my dragon statue character.
3. I didn't insult anyone. I mean, unless giving a NPC an item worth almost 5 times their wealth limit and employing scry and die tactics to assassinate a single PC is considered a good way to handle anything.

Lets be clear here. Am I incorrect in thinking that a DM employing scry and die tactics or giving a NPC 5 times their wealth limit to assassinate the one PC and only the one PC instead of other party members, is something completely unreasonable?

edit:
My DM wasn't even hunting for a way to break the box open.
First time it broke was when a Hezrou ended up next to the box in an encounter. And my DM said "Hey, I wonder how much damage a full power attack will do to the box" and with a full attack he cracked it open.
Second time it broke was when it was hit with two fireballs aimed at the whole party, but I think we forgot about the rule that objects only take 1/4 fire damage.

The box can only have 20-30hp before it gets too heavy to be carried around. If you really did see it in your games then you would've known about it instead of resorting to specific PC assassination tactics.

[gogogome]

Cloudkill (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/cloudkill.htm) in 3.5 only works if a subject isn't immune to poison. Thus, poison immunity has even more value!

Also, Warforged!

And since Spheres were allowed, I recommend a Technician (base class) who stays in his mech.

Sound is an issue too. Not sonic spells, but things like Harpies


3. Are you not able to craft an item to use as needed? Can you not craft an item to make such a spell effect permanent? Can you not scry on the box? Can you not Teleport nearby? Can you not stack Improved Invisibility on Invisibility? Can you not summon your own support?

You have accused me and others of not being able to handle player creativity, yet sticking with simple stuff from the PHB & DMG there are low level/equal level tactics that can take on such a tactic as a man inside a box.

A DM's goal is to challenge the players, not kill them. I don't think you're "handling" anything if you're killing players by complete surprise without a way for him to defend himself.

[AnimeTheCat]

"Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party, or else you are at severe risk of having assassins jump out at you with no one to assist."

Would you stop making your own rules for this competition (or make your own competition, just a kind suggestions here)?
"Must be within say 100 feet or so of the party"
I think my teammates should be able to cover this situation where this build comes a bit short and needs to stay in safe distance to cheer up his teammates. DRAMA (?).

ok, so your real plan is "be invisible and let your party do all the things"... got it.

[Gruftzwerg]

ok, so your real plan is "be invisible and let your party do all the things"... got it.
Nice try to provoke unnecessary again, what is your problem?

I can stay invisible while still summoning swarms and commanding undead. They don't break invisibility. And I have a move action to move around and remain hidden on top of it.

Just because I can't be useful in every situation doesn't mean anything. E.g. it is very common that only a single person per table is capable of handling locks and traps and do rogue stuff. Have all others failed because they aren't useful here?

Or when the caster gets to shine because of identifying new loot. Have the others failed their build? Or when there is something to dispell. Or social encounters.

Again, the competition is not to build a 1con superhero that solos stuff. It's about a 1con build that can stick to a party without being dead weight.
Constant 1d6 AoE dmg at will is strong compared to many other classes early lvls (not 1st class, but still strong). There are options that do more dmg, and those that do less. And once you have undead minions, you have more actions than anyone else per turn. Sure, I let "the others" do the job, if that includes my minions/summons..

I get it, you don't like my build and I shouldn't play it when you are going to DM because you are going to tailor all the time events, where the build will come short or specialized assassins will jump at me even if I'm hiding invisible next to the party. Just to make life for this build a pain huh`?
I repeat that the rule for this competition is "normal adventuring with party", where it is expected that everybody does parts of the jobs to do. It isn't expected in a party that everybody remains useful for any upcoming situation.

Are you sole playing T1 characters that do all the stuff to later rant over your party that they where useless dead weight? Is that your table/party?`If yes, I'm sorry.

[AnimeTheCat]

Nice try to provoke unnecessary again, what is your problem?

I can stay invisible while still summoning swarms and commanding undead. They don't break invisibility. And I have a move action to move around and remain hidden on top of it.
Ok, so a few things with your brilliant plan.
1) duration. the Summon swarm ability has a duration of concentration, so you'll be spending your standard action each round concentrating on your swarm. "But I'm going to be in another room from the party", ok but then you can't use your ability because
2) range and Line of Effect. Summon swarm has a range of close At most, you're going to be 50 feet away from wherever you're summoning your swarm and you'll have to be able to see where you're summoning them because of line of effect. This means that until you reach level 8, you're going to be in range of any fireball intended to hit your swarm and your party members, most likely, and that will probably kill you. I guess you could summon them and then send your party ahead buuuuuut...
3) control. You have no control over the swarms you summon. They will simply attack the nearest living thing. That means you can summon them ahead of time, but then they're going to most likely attack your party members, which seems counter productive to me.

But let's say you're going the undead route in addition to the swarms. Well.. that too has problems as well:
1) Control. You have to be able to issue verbal commands to your undead (as per the Animate Dead spell, "This spell turns the bones or bodies of dead creatures into undead skeletons or zombies that follow your spoken commands").
2) Cognitive ability. as per the Monster Manual for skeletons, "Because of this limitation, its instructions must always be simple, such as 'Kill anyone who enters this chamber.'", and for zombies, "Because of their utter lack of intelligence, the instructions given to a newly created zombie must be very simple, such as 'Kill anyone who enters this room.'"

So you're either going to be close enough to issue verbal commands (allowing listen checks to pinpoint your location, alerting the enemy to an invisible foe, etc) or you're going to have to giver really simple commands such as, "Attack whatever creature [party member] attacks".

What I'm getting at hear is that you're probably going to be not nearly as safe as you think you will be due to so many other factors than just what the enemy does or doesn't do. It's a pretty good plan, but it's far from infallible. It's far from risk free and the net benefit/gain is... not great. Unless you get some pretty strong creatures to turn in to undead, you're not going to be very much of a damage dealer and you're basically going to be using your undead as flanking buddies for your party members. This has value, but is less valuable than if you were to simply use your Eldritch blast, which is saying something. As for your swarms, those are not likely to be of any use beyond level 3 or 4, and of practically no use against any bloke with a burning hands prepared/known (an exceedingly common spell in most adventure paths for NPC spellcasters to have prepared).


Just because I can't be useful in every situation doesn't mean anything. E.g. it is very common that only a single person per table is capable of handling locks and traps and do rogue stuff. Have all others failed because they aren't useful here?

Or when the caster gets to shine because of identifying new loot. Have the others failed their build? Or when there is something to dispell. Or social encounters.

It's not that you're not useful in every situation, it's just that you're not useful in *most* situations. Even combat, you're not necessarily dead weight, but a fighter would probably be worth more value to the group than a warlock that has to spend every turn hiding and concentrating on a swarm that might turn against them if they're the closest living thing. At level 1, even the slightest mess up can kill a party member. That's actively worse than being dead weight. If there are social situations sure you can contribute, but you're dumping your (2 + Int) skill points in to hide and move silently, so you're only going to get your int modifier in skills. You're going to have to choose really specifically, and that's going to severely limit your abilities to contribute to noncombat situations. Basically, you have seriously limited combat capabilities and you're going to be of little assistance out of combat unless you devote copious quantities of build resources just to expand that to have possibly not even a base level of competence in those out of combat situations. Again, you're basically reducing yourself to fighter or below status just to *barely* survive in combat, with a similar outcome out of combat.

A wizard with a familiar or mage hand and knock, detect magic, detect traps, etc are all just as effective as a rogue and at times there is substantial overlap in these fields at any given table. Wizards, clerics, and other primary spellcasters have the ability to apply their magics in lots of non-combat situations and then shift gears to be somewhat helpful in combat situations without putting the party at risk of rogue swarms. Your proposed Warlock, can't.


Again, the competition is not to build a 1con superhero that solos stuff. It's about a 1con build that can stick to a party without being dead weight.
Constant 1d6 AoE dmg at will is strong compared to many other classes early lvls (not 1st class, but still strong). There are options that do more dmg, and those that do less. And once you have undead minions, you have more actions than anyone else per turn. Sure, I let "the others" do the job, if that includes my minions/summons..
The thing is, you haven't considered the challenges in your own build, like the ones I've presented above. You can't control your 1d6 AOE damage (which means that the swarm is probably going to affect your allies in melee combat) and you will probably not be able to finitely control all of your undead with infinite free actions (the DM can explicitly limit what is and isn't a free action, and issuing individualized commands to 9 undead is probably not 9 individual free actions) which also exposes you to 9 individual listen checks (if 9 zombies or whatever) to pinpoint your location. It's not the worst plan, but it has some obvious issues that run contrast to your "stay hidden" gameplan.


I get it, you don't like my build and I shouldn't play it when you are going to DM because you are going to tailor all the time events, where the build will come short or specialized assassins will jump at me even if I'm hiding invisible next to the party. Just to make life for this build a pain huh`?
I repeat that the rule for this competition is "normal adventuring with party", where it is expected that everybody does parts of the jobs to do. It isn't expected in a party that everybody remains useful for any upcoming situation.
Don't take it personally, I pointed out most of these issues before you even posted and simply applied them to your build. other builds that came before you were simply uninteresting (get in a box) or seemed to have far better coverage and less overall detail such as no class selected (Void-Mind Half-Undead (Gheden) Human with Troll-Blooded) than yours did. And I've tried to be as broad as humanly possible, trying to cite adventure paths or situations akin to those found in adventure paths (magmin water boiler instead of a mephit water generator) or set up scenarios that are reasonable to occur in a world (a church rising up against a perceived undead threat to a town). Even at low levels, pretty much every adventurer I've run for has said "I made sure to pick up some flour in case we run in to invisible stuff". I'm not being remotely unreasonable by pointing out that when you've reached the level of 24/7 invisibility you're going to be encountering foes that don't have to use flour anymore. Glitterdust, See Invis, Invis Purge, heck even detect thoughts might sus you out if you aren't careful or don't know that the effect is active and can't avoid the 60 foot cone. In normal adventuring with your party, you're probably going to encounter creatures or challenges that will invalidate invisibility. What's your plan for when that happens, because as of yet you haven't said anything, just compained that I'm singling you out when all I'm doing is pointing out an obvious flaw in your grand plan.


Are you sole playing T1 characters that do all the stuff to later rant over your party that they where useless dead weight? Is that your table/party?`If yes, I'm sorry.
No, I'm not saying that solely playing T1 characters that do all the stuff is my table or party, but when you are literally always 1 hit away from being killed, you better be bringing more to the table than "I'm going to hide all the time and maybe sometimes damage you until I can be invisible all the time and then yell orders to undead minions that are not going to be nearly as good as any of you at anything, but I'm also not going to contribute much, if at all, out of combat." I'm saying you either need to figure out how to protect yourself against the obvious issues in the build or adjust the build in such a way that is able to contribute more meaningfully to give your party more reason to be more protective of you.

[Gruftzwerg]

*snip*

Sorry, but imho you seem to never have played the things you are talking about:

Warlocks: Summon Swarm invocation

1. You chose which squares your swarm occupies in the first round

2. The swarm won't move anywhere when you place em on the enemies in your first round. As long as at least one square is occupied by an enemy, the rest of the swarm-spaces must connect in some way (e.g. chain) to that space.

3. Warlocks invocations are standard actions compared to the regular Summon Swarm spell. Thus the swarm is active in the first round and thus deals its damage at the end of the warlocks turn.

4. Enemies who start their turn in a space occupied by a swarm must make a Fortitude DC11 save or be nauseated for 1 round. Since enemy casters tend to have low fortitude saves this is a 40-50% auto-win condition on low levels against them.

5. At the beginning of your next (2nd) turn, you have the option to concentrate further on the spell or dismiss it without any action costs. Conclusion: There is no reason left to concentrate on the swarm. You can just recast the invocation and set once again on which spaces the swarms appear this round. Move action left to reposition for maximum safety.

I would say "I (as warlock) have full control over the swarm if I know how to (ab)use it the right way". And a 40-50% chance to auto-win against enemy casters every turn is not to shabby imho. Further I can apply a bleeding (bats) on the first round on all affected enemies and than start to stack STR dmg via the poison of spider swarms.

_______________

Undead minion control:

Easiest solution is to give them the command to guard your melee teammates (and follow their advice to attack enemies).

But you could still make some micro-management if the situation demands it (e.g. attack anything behind the door). If I use my standard action for commands, I can still use my move action to move and hide again (thus the enemies still won't be able to find me).

[AnimeTheCat]

Sorry, but imho you seem to never have played the things you are talking about:

Warlocks: Summon Swarm invocation

1. You chose which squares your swarm occupies in the first round

2. The swarm won't move anywhere when you place em on the enemies in your first round. As long as at least one square is occupied by an enemy, the rest of the swarm-spaces must connect in some way (e.g. chain) to that space.

3. Warlocks invocations are standard actions compared to the regular Summon Swarm spell. Thus the swarm is active in the first round and thus deals its damage at the end of the warlocks turn.

4. Enemies who start their turn in a space occupied by a swarm must make a Fortitude DC11 save or be nauseated for 1 round. Since enemy casters tend to have low fortitude saves this is a 40-50% auto-win condition on low levels against them.

5. At the beginning of your next (2nd) turn, you have the option to concentrate further on the spell or dismiss it without any action costs. Conclusion: There is no reason left to concentrate on the swarm. You can just recast the invocation and set once again on which spaces the swarms appear this round. Move action left to reposition for maximum safety.

I would say "I (as warlock) have full control over the swarm if I know how to (ab)use it the right way". And a 40-50% chance to auto-win against enemy casters every turn is not to shabby imho. Further I can apply a bleeding (bats) on the first round on all affected enemies and than start to stack STR dmg via the poison of spider swarms.

Whether I've played the things I'm discussing or not doesn't change the fact that I'm simply quoting rules and issues that arise from the interactions of said rules and that the things I've brought up are real issues that you have not addressed.

First, you're admitting that you're putting yourself within 25+5 ft/2 Caster levels of whatever it is that you're trying to kill with your swarm. Neat. At levels 1 through 3 you're going to be within 30 feet of wherever you're casting your spell. Do you not see how that's problematic to your concept of "I'm going to stay 100 feet away" or the concept of "i'll be in another room"? If you summon your swarm and then go run and hide, they know where you went to hide, and they'll likely investigate (if they have more than animalistic intelligence).

Secondly, citation for the damage being applied at the end of your turn. Swarms deal damage by simply moving in to a square. As near as I can tell, when you summon it they've entered the square, and immediately deal the damage. If it kills when that damage is applied, when it gets its turn to act it's going to move to the nearest creature. If it doesn't kill, then you'll have to standard action concentrate or plop it on another target.

Thirdly, you're specifically talking about placing yourself within close spellcasting range of the enemy spellcasters. The spellcasters who are, almost universally, behind non-spellcasters. So, you're saying you're just going to always have space to nonchalantly swarm something then run away and hide? That's a lot of assumptions, and that's why I'm saying that while this plan is decent, it's not perfect and there are issues with it. If you roll low on your stealth even once, to borrow from Happy Gilmore, "You're gonna die clown!" be it to a melee mook on-shotting you to a ranged mook one-shotting you, it's not going to end pretty for you.


Undead minion control:

Easiest solution is to give them the command to guard your melee teammates (and follow their advice to attack enemies).

But you could still make some micro-management if the situation demands it (e.g. attack anything behind the door). If I use my standard action for commands, I can still use my move action to move and hide again (thus the enemies still won't be able to find me).

Debatable if "Guard [party member] and follow their orders" is a valid as a simple command, but let's say it is. What have you provided to your party? meatshields? How much is that actually contributing? Unless you're making zombies of decently powerful creatures you're probably not contributing anything more than 12 HP and a slow moving target or 6 HP and an ineffective melee combatant, so basically a +2 to hit, sometimes. If you are making zombies of decently powerful creatures, you're going to be exposing yourself to a greater amount of risk, including the kind of risks that could actually be problematic for your particular plan.

Next, those instances where you're finitely controlling your undead with simple verbal commands of your own, you either won't be able to hide (you can't hide while being observed) or whomever you are hiding from will see where you went to hide and will be able to peruse because they've just seen or heard you. Even with invisibility, this is far from a perfect plan.

I don't know what kind of beef you have with me pointing out obvious issues in your concept. I've said and explained many times that your idea isn't bad, it just isn't perfect. I raised issues with contributions out of combat (due to resource utilization for simple survival). I raised issues with the range, duration, and application of both of your primary combat concepts, neither of which you're really answered the weaknesses of. A close range spell is lethal for a 1 con character to be using, how exactly are you going to deal with being that close (within charge distance from most enemies) to your enemies? In order to issue orders to your minions for finite control, you're going to need to speak. Even if you're invisible, how are you going to handle this? Nearly everything you've discussed puts you mostly within a 40 foot bubble of your party, which consequently is in range of things such as fireball. You don't need to be seen to be blasted by a fireball. This puts us back at the very beginning of the issues that were pointed out before you even posted your character concept.

[SangoProduction]

This does seem a little bit confrontational. Let's chill with that. I fully support AnimeTheCat making a build of his own for the challenge.

[AnimeTheCat]

This does seem a little bit confrontational. Let's chill with that. I fully support AnimeTheCat making a build of his own for the challenge.

If you can point out where I'm being overtly, or even subtly, confrontational towards any individual, I'll gladly admit to being confrontational. The thing is, I don't think I was being confrontational at all. I think I was just pointing out very basic issues that may arise and should be totally expected as challenges to overcome within in the confines of being bound to a constitution score of 1.

I'll freely admit that I do not possess the insane theoretical optimization required to "succeed" at this challenge. I possess a more practical skillset and approach to the game. I arrived at similar conclusions for avoidance or enemies; things like invisibility, darkstalker, etc. The problem is that I'm not able to arrive at what I would consider to be a reasonable response to my own questions. Being within 30 feet of an enemy when you summon a swarm on them is problematic when most creatures have a movement speed of 30 feet. Surely I can't be the only one who thinks that is problematic, right? Needing to speak to control undead while simultaneously being invisible is counterproductive, and non-managed undead are going to be far less useful to the party in combat. Again, surely I can't be the only one to think that right? I don't have answers to these questions, and that's why I haven't proposed any fixes myself. 1 Con challenge is hard, and saying that I'm being confrontational for challenging someone's lackluster presentation isn't a confrontation. I've also never said anything derogatory, rude, hurtful, mean, or otherwise negative about the individual posting OR their build. In fact, I've said no less than three times "It's good, it's just not perfect" or something along those lines.

I truly would appreciate it if you would point out where I've antagonized or otherwise initiated anything more than valid criticisms of the presented build that is, in my words "decent, it's not perfect and there are issues with it." because I'm not seeing where I've been confrontational.

[SangoProduction]

I was not calling you out. Just putting cool water on the whole situation before it got out of control, and redirected attention to something more in the festive spirit by inviting you to joining in on the challenge.

[Doctor Despair]

I was not calling you out. Just putting cool water on the whole situation before it got out of control, and redirected attention to something more in the festive spirit by inviting you to joining in on the challenge.

I agree that things seemed to have escalated a little, but let's sum up what we've seen so far. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the solutions discussed so far seem to have been:


Using a different attribute to determine HP with various methods
Stacking temporary hitpoints, delayed damage, and using minionmancy to increase your effective HP contributed to the party frontline
Becoming immune to conventional damage using Troll Blooded / Half-Undead (Gheden) / Void Mind and/or Tainted Blood
Stacking immunities using various templates and class-abilities
Using Warlock invisibility and summoning to contribute to the party from as far away as possible
Diplomancy
Living in a sturdy box to avoid giving enemies LOE to hit you with attacks/spells/abilities, then using minions to contribute to the party
Using the Telthor and Dragonborn of Bahamut templates to become incorporeal and hide underground to avoid LOE

[SangoProduction]

You did miss Ashiel's stacking Temp HP and Delaying Damage / Negative Effects, giving a chance to counter them by more conventional means. Definitely not outright immunity. But I appreciate the effort put into it.

But the rest of that, I think you got for the submissions so far.

[Gruftzwerg]

First, you're admitting that you're putting yourself within 25+5 ft/2 Caster levels of whatever it is that you're trying to kill with your swarm. Neat. At levels 1 through 3 you're going to be within 30 feet of wherever you're casting your spell. Do you not see how that's problematic to your concept of "I'm going to stay 100 feet away" or the concept of "i'll be in another room"? If you summon your swarm and then go run and hide, they know where you went to hide, and they'll likely investigate (if they have more than animalistic intelligence).

Why should they see me? I'm moving silently & hiding myself. Invocations only have somatic components if you aren't aware of it. Nothing that would break my stealth. There are IIRC only 2-3 invocations that have the exception to include verbal components and the build didn't picked any of em.
IMHO it is more likely that they think, they just missed the spells being cast (or still spell from one of your teammates), instead of assuming that there is a hidden caster , but I can see how others may vary in their opinion here.


Secondly, citation for the damage being applied at the end of your turn. Swarms deal damage by simply moving in to a square. As near as I can tell, when you summon it they've entered the square, and immediately deal the damage. If it kills when that damage is applied, when it gets its turn to act it's going to move to the nearest creature. If it doesn't kill, then you'll have to standard action concentrate or plop it on another target.
The Types and Subtypes section says how Swarm Attacks work (MM mentions it at the beginning of each swarms combat paragraph):

Creatures with the swarm subtype don’t make standard melee attacks. Instead, they deal automatic damage to any creature whose space they occupy at the end of their move, with no attack roll needed. End of move is an undefined term. It does not say move action nor movement (they could have said that if that was the intention). And the end of your "move" is imho more likely the end of your turn. Finally, I decide at the beginning of the 2nd turn if I concentrate on it (and they get their move action) or not (they don't get to move and thus don't deal damage. Otherwise I could stack the damage twice per turn...).


Thirdly, you're specifically talking about placing yourself within close spellcasting range of the enemy spellcasters. The spellcasters who are, almost universally, behind non-spellcasters. So, you're saying you're just going to always have space to nonchalantly swarm something then run away and hide? That's a lot of assumptions, and that's why I'm saying that while this plan is decent, it's not perfect and there are issues with it. If you roll low on your stealth even once, to borrow from Happy Gilmore, "You're gonna die clown!" be it to a melee mook on-shotting you to a ranged mook one-shotting you, it's not going to end pretty for you.As mentioned above, I don't need to hide or move silently again, since I don't break any of those with the Invocations I am using.



Debatable if "Guard [party member] and follow their orders" is a valid as a simple command, but let's say it is. What have you provided to your party? meatshields? How much is that actually contributing? Unless you're making zombies of decently powerful creatures you're probably not contributing anything more than 12 HP and a slow moving target or 6 HP and an ineffective melee combatant, so basically a +2 to hit, sometimes. If you are making zombies of decently powerful creatures, you're going to be exposing yourself to a greater amount of risk, including the kind of risks that could actually be problematic for your particular plan.
The Dead Walk is also a standard action invocation (that doesn't break stealth) that can be used with and without material component. When used without, the animated dead only last for 1min. A nice way to use our actions in a useful way as soon as enemies start to fall in a combat. Every fight with multiple enemies will become an uphill battle sooner or later for the enemies. Yeah, they are just meat-shields. But an almost infinite and effortless supply of em is what makes em special.



Next, those instances where you're finitely controlling your undead with simple verbal commands of your own, you either won't be able to hide (you can't hide while being observed) or whomever you are hiding from will see where you went to hide and will be able to peruse because they've just seen or heard you. Even with invisibility, this is far from a perfect plan.
Even if I speak the commands in a normal voice. It neither breaks invisibility nor hide. Just because someone hears you doesn't mean he is able to see you or pinpoint your location. He is just aware that there is another person. Which might cause him to waste actions to see the hidden person. And if your teammates are not braindead, they will focus those who get distracted by the warlock. It's common that the sturdier teammates aid the squishier in combat when they get into the focus of enemies. (party = teamwork warlock distracts the enemies and your teammates make use of it)
Further with Invisibility we can use our move action to move near the undead minions and whisper the commands into their ears if wanted (=listen check).


I don't know what kind of beef you have with me pointing out obvious issues in your concept. I've said and explained many times that your idea isn't bad, it just isn't perfect. I raised issues with contributions out of combat (due to resource utilization for simple survival). I raised issues with the range, duration, and application of both of your primary combat concepts, neither of which you're really answered the weaknesses of. A close range spell is lethal for a 1 con character to be using, how exactly are you going to deal with being that close (within charge distance from most enemies) to your enemies? In order to issue orders to your minions for finite control, you're going to need to speak. Even if you're invisible, how are you going to handle this? Nearly everything you've discussed puts you mostly within a 40 foot bubble of your party, which consequently is in range of things such as fireball. You don't need to be seen to be blasted by a fireball. This puts us back at the very beginning of the issues that were pointed out before you even posted your character concept.
I don't have any "beef" with you personally or with the things where you see problems. It's the way you put things. You have repeatedly made claims about things (warlocks) where you seem to lack the experience, towards a person who claims to have that experience. And despite the fact that I have shown your lack of knowledge several times, you still making your claims sound as you would know it all better. That heats the discussion in an unnecessary way imho. It would be less provoking if you ask questions about the things that bother you, when you have been shown that you lack the experience in the topic. I hope you get how I feel here. I don't intent to overheat the discussion more, so pls don't feel offended here. I'm just telling what causes the discussion to overheat from my perspective.
In fact, in some way it is still enjoyable for me, since I can point out the neat differences of warlocks here. So let us see it as opportunity instead of an overheated discussion ;)

[magicalmagicman]

I didn't read the whole discussion but if invisibility is your only defense then I'm gonna have to disagree. I played a permanently invisible sorcerer and it died to a fireball directed at the whole party. I used summon monster exclusively so I never broke invisibility.

[JyP]

So, you have 1 Constitution. Must still personally adventure, because reason. [...]
What are your solutions to completing adventures without dying.
While I don't think I can provide technical builds, I think it can be a very good roleplay premise : typically a sick or frail character is needed in adventures for his unique skills, even though he is completely unskilled around dungeons.

- Decrepit wizards like Raistlin are already covered, so let me think of other profiles :
- a crazy rich old merchant who wants to find gold / treasure and is building the party to do so in the first place (Scrooge). He can smell gold, you see.
- a noble scion which is frail and bookish, unlike his knights ancestors (Elric !)
- a great adventurer under a debilitating curse / mortally wounded (lycanthropy ? vampire with a stake in its heart ?)
- Jaime Lannister, once one of the greatest knights, after having his sword arm cut.

and many more ^^

[Gruftzwerg]

I didn't read the whole discussion but if invisibility is your only defense then I'm gonna have to disagree. I played a permanently invisible sorcerer and it died to a fireball directed at the whole party. I used summon monster exclusively so I never broke invisibility.

Imho it depends on strategic repositioning.

There is no reason to stay near or in the back of your party. We can position behind the enemies or somewhere unlikely to be hit by AoE. Most of the time the enemy caster will try to avoid friendly fire and thus you can logically assume where it is safe or not. This demands careful foresight to make the right decisions.
Either there is enough space to approach the enemy from a different side/angle or there enemy will place their AoE more carefully which you can abuse as safe spots.
It's like playing a squishy class in an MMORPG in solo PVE or in group PVP. You try to avoid death by combining abilities with careful decisions. You have to adapt to each situation given. Sure it is a risky playstyle, I'll admit that. But the risk can be minimized with foresight and careful decisions to a great degree.

May I ask how you died to a fireball? Did you stand 30+ ft away before the fight emerged and if not why? Why were you forced to stay near your party members and why didn't you seek shelter behind the enemy lines? I'm just curious how it happened?

[magicalmagicman]

Imho it depends on strategic repositioning.

There is no reason to stay near or in the back of your party. We can position behind the enemies or somewhere unlikely to be hit by AoE. Most of the time the enemy caster will try to avoid friendly fire and thus you can logically assume where it is safe or not. This demands careful foresight to make the right decisions.
Either there is enough space to approach the enemy from a different side/angle or there enemy will place their AoE more carefully which you can abuse as safe spots.
It's like playing a squishy class in an MMORPG in solo PVE or in group PVP. You try to avoid death by combining abilities with careful decisions. You have to adapt to each situation given. Sure it is a risky playstyle, I'll admit that. But the risk can be minimized with foresight and careful decisions to a great degree.

May I ask how you died to a fireball? Did you stand 30+ ft away before the fight emerged and if not why? Why were you forced to stay near your party members and why didn't you seek shelter behind the enemy lines? I'm just curious how it happened?

It was a small room in a dungeon. I was away from my party and got close enough to summon something right in front of an enemy creature. A different creature cast fireball in a way that it wouldn't hit any of his allies but hit all of my allies. I happened to be in the fireball AoE because it was a small enough room that a fireball could hit half the room. I failed my save and died because you can't stabilize an invisible creature on the account of not being able to find the body or the wound.

There's also the move silently issue which warlocks don't have as a class skill. At our table flying does not negate the need for move silently checks since move silently explicitly says flapping of clothes and other stuff contribute to it, and nowhere does it say magical flying is silent.

Sorry if you did address the move silently issue. It's just a lot of text to read through.

[Gruftzwerg]

It was a small room in a dungeon. I was away from my party and got close enough to summon something right in front of an enemy creature. A different creature cast fireball in a way that it wouldn't hit any of his allies but hit all of my allies. I happened to be in the fireball AoE because it was a small enough room that a fireball could hit half the room. I failed my save and died because you can't stabilize an invisible creature on the account of not being able to find the body or the wound.

There's also the move silently issue which warlocks don't have as a class skill. At our table flying does not negate the need for move silently checks since move silently explicitly says flapping of clothes and other stuff contribute to it, and nowhere does it say magical flying is silent.

Sorry if you did address the move silently issue. It's just a lot of text to read through.

Well, sorry to point it out, but that was bad positioning. There was no reason to stay at the side of the room where your teammates are. That is the place where the AoE is most likely to hit for obvious reasons. You should have moved behind the enemy line to avoid the risk of being hit by an AoE spell/effect.

Move Silently/hide and warlock:
I used the Flexible Mind feat to have those two as class skills. It's mentioned in my first post. Imho it is ok if you didn't read everything, as long as you point it out. So, I can adjust to it and won't get irritated^^.

[Sutr]

I think, I've thought about playing this before, you'll need old age. I suggest a Paladin, a drunken angry paladin with a 1 constitution that possibly runs a bar. He should be upset about his party deserting him a long time ago and old. He should be upset that evil got better toys from the gods. That's why he payed to get the evil subtype. It's also why he hangs out in a sword, and is carried around by his pet dog, you can only trust a dog.

Paladin 2/Swordsage 2/ Someting with a high will 1/ Fiend of Possesion 4/Kensai 1

Feats: 1: Wild Cohort, 3: Gift of Grace, 3 Swordsage: Weapon Focus, 6: Combat Expertise, 9 IDK.

Plan A is let the dog do the fighting, its probably more competent than you, your goal will be to apply bane give save bonuses to your companion. Save replacers are good for yourself, seriously, 13 ranks in concentration with a -4 is still +9 to your save which is competitive for your level. He's going to finish Kensai. Instill is great on a 15 minute workday.

[Doctor Despair]

I think, I've thought about playing this before, you'll need old age.

Can you age yourself up if you have 1 con?

With that said, you don't need to buy the subtype if you are a Divine Minion Diabolus (LA2) or level-drained Kaorti (LA2). With either of those, you enter FoP at level 4 (ECL6).

The problem with relying on FoP, I think, is figuring out how you survive up until the appropriate level. Wild Cohort is a decent answer, but with no way to replace the cohort if it dies, it's a fragile (although valuable) resource.

[MR_Anderson]

You replied to a post (now scrubbed) that said your invisibility stalking doesn't work because of move silently checks, with "and flying/levitating". So I made the logical conclusion that you sought to overcome the move silently issue with "flying/levitating."

I made no such statement, and this has been my frustration with your posts, and why I am saying you are being aggressive towards me.

You continue to attribute statements to me of what I supposedly have said, but your statements against me continue to be untrue. If need be, we can involve a mod to look back and post history.

However, just like the combat experience mistake you made, I think you are remembering some other individual’s comments in this thread and incorrectly attributing them to me.

If I am ever wrong I will certainly apologize, but I try to always quote into my replies what someone had said.


There is. It's called Greater Invisibility just like I said.

But you said...

There's no spell called improved invisibility.

Spell Durations are different for some spells in 3rd Edition, Improved Invisibility is the same I think, but Invisibility is different, as is Fly. Improved Invisibility can be used on top of Invisibility from an item.


Spell level1 × caster level × 2,000 gp
4 x 7 x 2000
56,000gp for a continuous Greater Invisibility.
Wealth by level for 9th level PC wizards is 36,000gp.
Wealth by level for 9th level NPC wizards is 12,000gp.

Items cost less depending on what type of item they are, and the restrictions placed upon their use. Additionally, if someone is crafting it themselves the item is half the cost.

Wand with Class and Alignment restrictions would be best.

Spell Level x Caster Level x 750 gp x Modifier x Half Cost for Crafting
4 x 7 x 750 x 70% x 0.5 = 7,350 gp


Giving a 9th level NPC wizard a 56,000gp item to counter a box strategy is proof of your ability to take on such tactics?
:smallconfused:

In this reply you continue to repeat 56,000gp or cost argument, but that is your logic, not mine, see how cheap it can be made.

I provided one such strategy that popped off the top of my head, but if there are truly assassins after the character, they would have much more time to figure something out, remember we’re suppose to be taking the OP’ situation into consideration, not just any situation. Assassins were mentioned.

Something like Knock followed by a Quicken Magic Missile for the kill could work.

The use of “small confused“ icons to imply my ability is lacking, shows an insulting attitude towards me.

This whole theoretical discussion is basically about a low HP character staying alive adventuring and preventing assassins from getting him.


I know from playtesting that the box strategy is far from invincible. Any creature with power attack or an adamantine weapon (3,000gp as opposed to your 56,000gp) breaks it open in a turn.

This was all I really was going for, because Fire Trap, Fly, Invisibility, and Shrink Item could easily defeat the box strategy, as well as many things. I’ll just leave that idea puzzle there for you, it’s simple.


Yet your method of approach to a player using the box is
1. Give the NPC wizard almost 5 times his wealth limit to kill the PC's wizard and only the wizard and not the rest of the party while they sleep.
2. Employ Scry and Die tactics to kill the PC's wizard and only the wizard and not the rest of the party while they sleep.
3. Try to force "separation and mental issues" onto the PC to force him out of the box.

You can see how someone who used the box in a past game would be infuriated with a DM resorting to what you resorted to?

Again you are projecting your thoughts on to my tactics for a theoretical situation, I never said open Solomon’s Mines and allow them the riches needed to defeat them.

Many DM’s would not allow a tactic like this, and not because it breaks any kind of D&D rule, but it breaks the Role Playing rules kind of like how characters can break the 4th Wall.


Seems I made an error. It's a good thing that I was specific so our misunderstanding could be pointed out and cleared up.

Or more-so that I was very purposeful in trying to make sure my words were exact. I don’t have a problem with the box as a temporary solution or combat/adventure protection, but not 24/7 use, it works but it isn’t a permanent solution.


I don't think I was that aggressive. If I was I apologize. Me responding to each and every one of your quotes with the same phrase probably made it look more aggressive than I wanted.

But a DM resorting to Scry and Die tactics or giving NPCs almost 5 times their wealth limit solely to assassinate a single PC employing a strategy that could be defeated by a single feat or a 3,000gp item is gonna aggravate people.

Must you take every wrongful concession and then try and twist it back as an attack of how I am wrong to justify or ignore your wrongness? This as well as what I mentioned earlier is the aggressiveness of your posts towards me.

It comes across as you trying to be more right and proving me wrong in order to win, rather than having a discussion.


No. The "crazy" part came from the character claiming she is an Ancient Prismatic Greatwyrm to every single character she met. The "crazy lady in box" came as a result of our party members having fun exposing my character's lie.
"I AM AN ANCIENT PRISMATIC GREATWYRM TRAPPED IN A-"
"she crazy lady in box"

Playing the character as crazy would be fine, that is what I would want to see as the DM, but doesn’t sound like what you did.


None of our party members even batted an eye to a psion hiding in a box because, as veterans of the system, we all know wizards (and psions) die to a goblin sneeze. I personally lost a wizard to a goblin archer who beat me in initiative, and a sorcerer to a fireball. My table laughed when I brought in the box and they thought it was genius.

This is basically D&D’s version of breaking the 4th Wall, or Playing the characters with Player knowledge instead of just the knowledge the character actually has. Some Player knowledge is inevitably going to make it into a character, but it is the player’s responsibility to prevent this, and the DM’s job to police this activity.

This is absolutely an area where I would penalize experience.

Playing as “veterans of the system” while not absolutely violating the RP’ing aspect of the game, opens the door for abuses. I gladly allow players to do anything within the rules, but when they start gaming the system to extremes for tactics I ask them how the character is going about it, and the thought process behind the character, so they role play it. Rather than, I’m low HP, and want to hide.


1. I have doubts that you did see it because your "solutions" were giving a NPC character 5 times their wealth limit and employing scry and die tactics.
2. It's not my suggestion it's newguydude1's. In fact one of his earlier posts was the inspiration for my dragon statue character.
3. I didn't insult anyone. I mean, unless giving a NPC an item worth almost 5 times their wealth limit and employing scry and die tactics to assassinate a single PC is considered a good way to handle anything.

Lets be clear here. Am I incorrect in thinking that a DM employing scry and die tactics or giving a NPC 5 times their wealth limit to assassinate the one PC and only the one PC instead of other party members, is something completely unreasonable?

There are assassins in this scenario, scry and die tactics are in play for theoretical discussion for best solutions.

Normally as a DM they are usually absolutely wrong, and I would be agreeing with you.


edit:
My DM wasn't even hunting for a way to break the box open.
First time it broke was when a Hezrou ended up next to the box in an encounter. And my DM said "Hey, I wonder how much damage a full power attack will do to the box" and with a full attack he cracked it open.
Second time it broke was when it was hit with two fireballs aimed at the whole party, but I think we forgot about the rule that objects only take 1/4 fire damage.

The box can only have 20-30hp before it gets too heavy to be carried around. If you really did see it in your games then you would've known about it instead of resorting to specific PC assassination tactics.

Again, this specific scenario has assassins.

Also one last point, if there were no assassins, why would the other party members continue to stay around a psion or magic caster that acts unstable? I’ve seen adventure parties break up over less, and a character that could be mentally unstable with great powers has resulted in multiple character groups dissolving at multiple tables I’ve played at.


A DM's goal is to challenge the players, not kill them. I don't think you're "handling" anything if you're killing players by complete surprise without a way for him to defend himself.

Agreed, but the OP’s scenario states assassins are after this character should they get the opportunity. If the party gets separated, or the box carriers can’t keep up, are killed, the assassins could be there to kill him.

I’m not rejecting the Idea on its premise out right, I’m applying it to this theoretical scenario for discussion, and the Role Playing is always an aspect. I hope that helps the understanding of the tactic.

[Elkad]

Well, sorry to point it out, but that was bad positioning. There was no reason to stay at the side of the room where your teammates are. That is the place where the AoE is most likely to hit for obvious reasons. You should have moved behind the enemy line to avoid the risk of being hit by an AoE spell/effect.

I've died to AoE on the enemy side of the map too, more than once.

Party caster didn't know where I was, included me in the radius of a spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

I've died to AoE on the enemy side of the map too, more than once.

Party caster didn't know where I was, included me in the radius of a spell.

Sorry but haven't you talked about team strategy so far (to the point where he got his AoE spells)? Imho these kind of things could be avoided. Your teammate could have prepared See Invisibility or just shout a warning the round before unleashing his AoE. Imho it sounds it was more like a damage race between you and your teammates than teamwork: "I need to do damage NOW!" Whas this a selfish evil group or what? (kindly asking)

[Sutr]

Can you age yourself up if you have 1 con?

Probably not, more using it as an excuse to of how my con got to one, kinda cheating the challenge obviously. It also makes those early levels less harsh if we presume a 7 con.




With that said, you don't need to buy the subtype if you are a Divine Minion Diabolus (LA2) or level-drained Kaorti (LA2). With either of those, you enter FoP at level 4 (ECL6).

The problem with relying on FoP, I think, is figuring out how you survive up until the appropriate level. Wild Cohort is a decent answer, but with no way to replace the cohort if it dies, it's a fragile (although valuable) resource.

If LA buyoff is in effect the LA rules are better, but they kinda ruin the crotchety old paladin feel. I'm reading the animal companion rules and the wild cohort it seems it can be replaced with a day of meditation in a natural enviroment. It doesn't seem to have the same rules as a familiar. I'm kinda suggesting that you combat expertised and fought defensively as your dog did all the work at the low levels. Your party left you for that, its your epic backstory. While you had high saves that you eventually also give to the dog, when you are in a sword with save replacers. Eventually instill will make the dog better than other fighters, though you might need something with pounce.

[Doctor Despair]

I'm reading the animal companion rules and the wild cohort it seems it can be replaced with a day of meditation in a natural enviroment.

A wild cohort is not an animal companion by RAW, so the re-summon rules don't apply over except by house-rule, sadly. They don't have a mechanism to replace them if they pass away. :/

[Elkad]

Sorry but haven't you talked about team strategy so far (to the point where he got his AoE spells)? Imho these kind of things could be avoided. Your teammate could have prepared See Invisibility or just shout a warning the round before unleashing his AoE. Imho it sounds it was more like a damage race between you and your teammates than teamwork: "I need to do damage NOW!" Whas this a selfish evil group or what? (kindly asking)

In at least one of the cases, yes. I even told him "I'm going left", and he chucked a fireball at the left side, because by the next round he'd forgotten.
In a couple I'd flat told the casters "I've got evasion, so if you need to include me in a Reflex save, go ahead". D&D version of calling artillery in on my own position.
One I was on guard duty solo. Night attack. I rushed into the middle of the badguys screaming battle cries (on a rogue) to buy the rest of the party time to get out of their beds. While the tanks were fumbling for their boots and swords, the druid slapped an entangle down. Which pinned me nicely as well, right in melee range of everyone. That didn't kill me directly, but it DID cause my death.

Note that we typically do NOT put invisible player minis on the map in combat. You tell the DM your route and where you are. (numbered hexes are great for this) And there shouldn't be a party discussion midfight about AoE placement either. It's assumed those have to be aloud, thus must be short and the enemy can hear (comprehension is optional) as well. And you target an AoE by putting the center dot on the map on your turn. Only after that does the template come out to determine exactly who is in or out of the area. Which leads to hilarity at times. (it also keeps the caster concentrating on the game, as he's counting squares and updating his plan when it's not his turn, instead of playing on his phone)

But in general, our CvC (PvP) flag is always on. So getting fireballed by the wizard is just a thing that happens from time to time, because sometimes it's more efficient to toast all the ogres at once, and then heal the barbarian back up. Same with Dominating him when he fails his Fear save. Or when he just won't charge down the hallway because he's being too cautious.

When the game emphasis is on combat instead of RP (which my tables usually are), then it is flat expected that sometimes the best way to win means a party member dies. We've even had versions of Horatio at the Bridge, and "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you" followed by a simulated kneecapping in the form of a Slow spell.

[Gruftzwerg]

In at least one of the cases, yes. I even told him "I'm going left", and he chucked a fireball at the left side, because by the next round he'd forgotten.
In a couple I'd flat told the casters "I've got evasion, so if you need to include me in a Reflex save, go ahead". D&D version of calling artillery in on my own position.
One I was on guard duty solo. Night attack. I rushed into the middle of the badguys screaming battle cries (on a rogue) to buy the rest of the party time to get out of their beds. While the tanks were fumbling for their boots and swords, the druid slapped an entangle down. Which pinned me nicely as well, right in melee range of everyone. That didn't kill me directly, but it DID cause my death.
My group tends to have a few strategic meetings. It starts with setting guards at the first night camp. At some point a traveling formation will be set. And after the first few fights people will start talking about teamwork strategy (at the campfire). Who runs in first, when are AoEs used or anything else that needs to be discussed (like an invisible party member). Can the melees (and invisible warlock) handle friendly fire or not, such things..
If you group is ok with killing each other for the goal, its fine. But my groups tends to avoid such solutions. Therefore most of the time AoEs are cast on sight, before anyone is in melee range. A simple way to avoid frying your invisible/hidden teammates.



Note that we typically do NOT put invisible player minis on the map in combat. You tell the DM your route and where you are. (numbered hexes are great for this) And there shouldn't be a party discussion midfight about AoE placement either. It's assumed those have to be aloud, thus must be short and the enemy can hear (comprehension is optional) as well. And you target an AoE by putting the center dot on the map on your turn. Only after that does the template come out to determine exactly who is in or out of the area. Which leads to hilarity at times. (it also keeps the caster concentrating on the game, as he's counting squares and updating his plan when it's not his turn, instead of playing on his phone)

But in general, our CvC (PvP) flag is always on. So getting fireballed by the wizard is just a thing that happens from time to time, because sometimes it's more efficient to toast all the ogres at once, and then heal the barbarian back up. Same with Dominating him when he fails his Fear save. Or when he just won't charge down the hallway because he's being too cautious.

When the game emphasis is on combat instead of RP (which my tables usually are), then it is flat expected that sometimes the best way to win means a party member dies. We've even had versions of Horatio at the Bridge, and "I don't have to outrun the bear, just you" followed by a simulated kneecapping in the form of a Slow spell.

You could still communicate enough in-fights to avoid this:

In general, speaking is a free action that you can perform even when it isn’t your turn. Speaking more than few sentences is generally beyond the limit of a free action.
You teammate caster can at the start of the round (when nobody acted) say/yell a codeword/codepharse to indicate that he intends to cast an AoE this round. You could even respond with your invisible character when you are in a safe spot/range. Further he can delay his turn to make sure he takes his turn last and his teammates have enough time to react (and get out of AoE range).
As said, if your team plays a selfish combat style where everyone is for himself and the caster only thinks "I blast when I can", sure that it happens. But if you have a team who really "cares" (friendly RP doesn't involve frying your teammates^^) for their teammates and makes good use of strategy, you can most of the time prevent such mischief.

[Elkad]

I don't want you to get the idea that killing teammates is at all common...

I've seen it happen what might seem like a high number of times, but it's over better than 4 decades of D&D. A couple of those decades were a minimum of 20 hours a week of playtime.

But the on-topic point is that if you are running around with 10hp, the amount of extra caution the rest of the party has to take to not kill you accidentally is very high. A black tentacles could knock you out of the fight in a single round.

[Gruftzwerg]

I don't want you to get the idea that killing teammates is at all common...

I've seen it happen what might seem like a high number of times, but it's over better than 4 decades of D&D. A couple of those decades were a minimum of 20 hours a week of playtime.

Well, I play d&d for almost 3 decades and yeah, we had also such situations. But as said, it has to do more with being careless or bad luck than it is the norm. Sure we all die at some point ^^

Playing a 1 CON build is like playing a squishy damage dealer in an MMORPG. If you have ever played WoW, the frost mage is a good example. Depending if he plays solo or a in a team, his strategy changes. This can be seen especially in PVP. It is a spec where you need to know what you are doing, have knowledge about enemy tactics and have good teamplay. YOu don't facetank damage and as such you need to know how to avoid being killed.
Same can be said in our scenario here. Most security measurements depend on strategical preparation and setup. Sure, strategies can fail. But for the most part they can work well.