Way of mercy monk vs way of the long death

[Witty Username]

So, I am looking over the way of mercy monk and realizing it is more interesting then I gave it credit for on my first pass. But more importantly, Hand of harm and Physician's touch to well in touching on the theme of the way of the long death possibly more so then the long death subclass. In fact if you are greedy with the hands of healing you can lean in to the endurance aspect of the long death.
My only thought is Hand of Ultimate Mercy is not in line with long death at all, given resurrecting the dead is something of a taboo.

Maybe swapping Hand of Ultimate Mercy for Touch of the Long Death, and if one is a stickler for lore replace the poisoned condition from Physician's Touch with the frightened condition. How balanced would that be?

Also, what would your opinion be of a player asking to play a way of mercy monk as a member of the order of the long death, for you people that actually play in the forgotten realms?

And is my reasoning fair that the mechanics of these sub classes are similar?

[MaxWilson]

IMO no, they're not mechanically similar or even really thematically similar. Mercy is like a plague doctor, healing and poisoning or both. Long Death is like the Grim Reaper in mortal form, shrugging off deadly blows and scaring the pants off of enemies.

The guy who swats you with a fly whisk and suddenly you feel less ill? That's a Mercy Monk. The guy ignoring the broadsword sticking out of his ribcage? That's a Long Death monk.

[Witty Username]

IMO no, they're not mechanically similar or even really thematically similar. Mercy is like a plague doctor, healing and poisoning or both. Long Death is like the Grim Reaper in mortal form, shrugging off deadly blows and scaring the pants off of enemies.

The guy who swats you with a fly whisk and suddenly you feel less ill? That's a Mercy Monk. The guy ignoring the broadsword sticking out of his ribcage? That's a Long Death monk.

Long death can't really do the implacable thing until level 11 though. Way of mercy can do that at 3rd, like I said if they are greedy with the healing. Not to mention inflicting death with a touch, which is a theme of both subclasses.
Then again that might be more of an assessment of power level, Way of the long death reads as pretty weak to me, at least until 11th level.

Implements of mercy implies doctor but the Order of the long death is mentioned exhuming and examining the physical effects of death and decay on dead bodies so the medicine skill is not terribly far out there.

I do suppose their is a theme of neutrality for the way of mercy, while way of the long death is decidedly evil feeling which one has to make play decisions to replicate that evil feeling with the way of mercy.

[MaxWilson]

(A) Long death can't really do the implacable thing until level 11 though. Way of mercy can do that at 3rd, like I said if they are greedy with the healing. Not to mention inflicting death with a touch, which is a theme of both subclasses.
Then again that might be more of an assessment of power level, (B) Way of the long death reads as pretty weak to me, at least until 11th level.

(C) Implements of mercy implies doctor but the Order of the long death is mentioned exhuming and examining the physical effects of death and decay on dead bodies so the medicine skill is not terribly far out there.

I do suppose their is a theme of neutrality for the way of mercy, while (D) way of the long death is decidedly evil feeling which one has to make play decisions to replicate that evil feeling with the way of mercy.

(A) They unlock temp HP on kill at level 3, and an at-will fear effect at level 6 which feels like they're supposed to be creepy. They may not be able to go full-un Terminator until level 11, but they're angling in that direction from the beginning, and it's a different direction than Mercy goes.

(B) I suppose it depends on how well your party is set up to benefit from fear effects and how often you are outnumbered by monsters. In a ranged-heavy party it would be quite good, although perhaps not as good as a full spellcaster with Hypnotic Pattern would be--hard to say for sure without knowing how many mobs you'll be facing. Then again, a Long Death monk isn't just at-will fear, it's also Stunning Strike and temp HP. I've always wanted to play one but haven't got around to it--I always wind up with Shadow Monks and Elemonks instead.

(C) To me this reads more like a doctor vs. taxidermist distinction. Although, I somewhat dislike the explicit fluff of Long Death, even though I like the implicit fluff.

(D) I dunno, to me it's more "creepy" than "evil." Death isn't malicious but it's weird to be so cozy with her while you're still living.

[Witty Username]

Creepy is a bit relative, I think. Dealing necrotic damage and poisoning with a touch is about as creepy in my mind.

I feel like the fear effect is not necessarily a bad ability so much as it feels bad to use, because you have to do that and nothing else and since it only lasts a turn you may need to repeatedly use it to maintain it. way of mercy can use its poisoning as part of an attack action and so can keep doing "monk things" while using it. And on killing enemy get temp hp is hard to plan around, at least in the games I have been in it can be difficult to ensure a particular person secures the kill. You can go hunting to get the temp hp, but that will depend on environment a bit. Hand of healing is probably weaker in the moment but it is reliable, and since it improves to remove conditions it has some other utilities.

The evil vibes I get are more self vs group thinking I think. Way of mercy is pretty split down the middle of helping others and harming foes, while way of the long death is encouraged to seek out and kill, benefit themselves, and terrify others with their presence. Essentially way of mercy has an easier time using their abilities for good and bad which gives them a sense of neutrality (or maybe freedom to choose), while long death can use their abilities for good it requires effort on their part to do so.

Sidnote: I realize that way of mercy feels like it has a lot of stuff. It has 2 abilities at 3rd which are both reasonable, and at 6th and 11th both of those abilities improve in meaningful ways. Kinda like an overloaded kit in league of legends. I'm not sure what to make of that impression.

[MaxWilson]

Creepy is a bit relative, I think. Dealing necrotic damage and poisoning with a touch is about as creepy in my mind.

I feel like the fear effect is not necessarily a bad ability so much as it feels bad to use, because you have to do that and nothing else and since it only lasts a turn you may need to repeatedly use it to maintain it. way of mercy can use its poisoning as part of an attack action and so can keep doing "monk things" while using it. And on killing enemy get temp hp is hard to plan around, at least in the games I have been in it can be difficult to ensure a particular person secures the kill. You can go hunting to get the temp hp, but that will depend on environment a bit. Hand of healing is probably weaker in the moment but it is reliable, and since it improves to remove conditions it has some other utilities.

The evil vibes I get are more self vs group thinking I think. Way of mercy is pretty split down the middle of helping others and harming foes, while way of the long death is encouraged to seek out and kill, benefit themselves, and terrify others with their presence. Essentially way of mercy has an easier time using their abilities for good and bad which gives them a sense of neutrality (or maybe freedom to choose), while long death can use their abilities for good it requires effort on their part to do so.

Sidnote: I realize that way of mercy feels like it has a lot of stuff. It has 2 abilities at 3rd which are both reasonable, and at 6th and 11th both of those abilities improve in meaningful ways. Kinda like an overloaded kit in league of legends. I'm not sure what to make of that impression.

I guess it's a matter of preference. To me, the fear ability does not feel bad any more than Dodging, grappling, or casting Hypnotic Pattern feels bad. They are all ways of removing options from your enemy's toolbox. Maybe that's why Long Death feels bad to you, because you are ignoring their biggest Help Your Group ability? They are better tanks than most Fighters are due to being able to actually control enemy movement instead of just threatening opportunity attacks.

The temp HP from long Death are quite easy to get. Unlike a Fiendlock you don't need a hostile creature specifically; unlike a Necromancer you don't need to kill, just reduce to 0 HP at 5' range. If you carry a few 2cp chickens with you, you can gain temp HP between combats by reducing them to 0 HP with nonlethal damage. If you happen to gain more HP during combat, yay bonus temp HP! but you're not reliant on chance. You can even use defeated weak enemies instead of chickens--tie them up and knock them out when needed. It's as reliable as the Inspiring Leader feat but with quicker recharge. Take the Healer feat if you want to be able to revive enemies quicker.

Way of Mercy is fine. It's not more full of goodness than Long Death, or Shadow Monk.

[Emongnome777]

... and if one is a stickler for lore replace the poisoned condition from Physician's Touch with the frightened condition. How balanced would that be?

Poisoned
A poisoned creature has disadvantage on attack rolls and ability checks.

Frightened
A frightened creature has disadvantage on ability checks and attack rolls while the source of its fear is within line of sight.
The creature can't willingly move closer to the source of its fear.

Poisoned and Frightened are very similar in effect. Frightened includes a touch of control, preventing movement in one direction, but the poisoned condition doesn't require line of sight to maintain it's debilitating impact.

Another point is that more creatures are immune to poisoned condition than to frightened. Using a D&D Beyond search of the Monster Manual (adding adventure-specific creatures could skew the list), there's 7 pages of monsters immune to poisoned condition and 3 pages of monsters immune to frightened condition.

My suggestion: Frightened is slightly better than poisoned. You can change it without other changes (maybe a tiny improvement to the subclass) or change the condition duration from "the end of your next turn" to "the start of your next turn". That may sway it too far to reduced power overall, though.

[Witty Username]

I guess it's a matter of preference. To me, the fear ability does not feel bad any more than Dodging, grappling, or casting Hypnotic Pattern feels bad. They are all ways of removing options from your enemy's toolbox. Maybe that's why Long Death feels bad to you, because you are ignoring their biggest Help Your Group ability? They are better tanks than most Fighters are due to being able to actually control enemy movement instead of just threatening opportunity attacks.

I am not denying that aoe disables are good, I am just saying that the 1 round duration and taking a turn off make it awkward, at least in comparison to say the battlemaster with menacing attack or the way the open hand knocking an opponent prone after a grapple. both can still do there normal stuff taking some opportunity to get there effects off. A spellcaster casting something like fear or hypnotic pattern may be closer, but they last 1 minute, allowing the mage to cast cantrips, make attacks, maybe a dodge action to cover its bases after applying it while the long death has to keep spending its turns to maintain the effect. Ki fueled strike adds to this feeling of strangeness, as other monks can now make bonus action attacks when they spend ki for their actions, which long death doesn't get to use.
Maybe that is the trade for it not costing resources and an aoe control effect, but it still has a feeling of being clunky, maybe if it cost 1 ki and lasted 1 minute it would be about as powerful and play more smoothly for me?

[Omni-Centrist]

I built a Level 6 Long Death Monk 5 Barbarian 1, it was beautiful. Hill Giant Belt, 16 DeX, 18 Wiz, Fighting Initiative Feat and you can make really good use of that Temp HP. Once you get evasion, you're basically a one man army. With point buy you could go tortle, dump dex and pump Str Wis and Con. Raphael.

I haven't figured out how to make a really cool mercy monk yet. How would you build it?

[Omni-Centrist]

I am not denying that aoe disables are good, I am just saying that the 1 round duration and taking a turn off make it awkward, at least in comparison to say the battlemaster with menacing attack or the way the open hand knocking an opponent prone after a grapple. both can still do there normal stuff taking some opportunity to get there effects off. A spellcaster casting something like fear or hypnotic pattern may be closer, but they last 1 minute, allowing the mage to cast cantrips, make attacks, maybe a dodge action to cover its bases after applying it while the long death has to keep spending its turns to maintain the effect. Ki fueled strike adds to this feeling of strangeness, as other monks can now make bonus action attacks when they spend ki for their actions, which long death doesn't get to use.
Maybe that is the trade for it not costing resources and an aoe control effect, but it still has a feeling of being clunky, maybe if it cost 1 ki and lasted 1 minute it would be about as powerful and play more smoothly for me?

I think the Long Death is basically supposed to be the aggro tank monk, you have temp to take hits and the Level 6 ability basically disables the frontliners from being as useful against your squishes.

[Witty Username]

I built a Level 6 Long Death Monk 5 Barbarian 1, it was beautiful. Hill Giant Belt, 16 DeX, 18 Wiz, Fighting Initiative Feat and you can make really good use of that Temp HP. Once you get evasion, you're basically a one man army. With point buy you could go tortle, dump dex and pump Str Wis and Con. Raphael.

I haven't figured out how to make a really cool mercy monk yet. How would you build it?

I think way of mercy reads cool as is, but a grapple build might be fun. Maybe a level in rogue for expertise in athletics. Poison them with hands of harm, shove them, grapple them, crush the life out of them. Maybe Yuan-ti or black green dragonborn with the tasha's rules just for style maybe (probably variant human grabbing grappler would be more prudent), focus on dex, have high wis and con. I do rolled stats in my games but the point buy would probably want dex 16, con 14, wis 16 other stuff, probably whatever str I can get away with and cha 8. Healing hands falls by the wayside but can still be used for pop-up healing. If feeling gutsy, maybe drop con a bit for str 14 and plan to take the tough feat later and use healing hands to top yourself up as needed.

[Hael]

They are better tanks than most Fighters are due to being able to actually control enemy movement instead of just threatening opportunity attacks.

Way of Mercy is fine. It's not more full of goodness than Long Death, or Shadow Monk.

In tier 3 maybe, but you don’t want a long death monk tanking in tier1-2. They have crap ac, their temphp is small and they’re basically no better than any other monk at tanking (eg pretty bad). The control they bring with their 6th lvl feature is ok, but it’s resisted a good amount, and it costs an entire action.

Way of mercy is definitely strong in tier 1-2, they nova pretty hard for a monk and they’ll end up with a good amount of effective hp from the healing and they don’t have to waste an entire turn doing no damage to apply their debuff. Removing the debuffs is also excellent.

Long death is a lategame build and made for one shots.

[MaxWilson]

In tier 3 maybe, but you don’t want a long death monk tanking in tier1-2. They have crap ac, their temphp is small and they’re basically no better than any other monk at tanking (eg pretty bad).

Disagree about Tier 2. AC is decent if you make it so (AC 16-17 at level 1, another +1 at 4th level or the Healer feat, take vhuman Defensive Duelist for extra +3 against most hits), they can use Patient Defense if many monsters save against Fear, and the temp HP are enough to be useful (easily 10 HP per fight, using pre-battle chickens as described above and the occasional in-combat kill).

They're not as durable as Eldritch Knights tanks but they have way more control. Less reliance on terrain and chokepoints for tanking--Long Death monks can FORCE enemies to care about them.

They're the tankiest monk, and one of the tankiest melee warriors although not necessarily the hardest to kill until Tier 3. But tanking is more than just surviving, it's keeping enemies off your buddies.

[Witty Username]

Disagree about Tier 2. AC is decent if you make it so (AC 16-17 at level 1, another +1 at 4th level or the Healer feat, take vhuman Defensive Duelist for extra +3 against most hits), they can use Patient Defense if many monsters save against Fear, and the temp HP are enough to be useful (easily 10 HP per fight, using pre-battle chickens as described above and the occasional in-combat kill).

They're not as durable as Eldritch Knights tanks but they have way more control. Less reliance on terrain and chokepoints for tanking--Long Death monks can FORCE enemies to care about them.

They're the tankiest monk, and one of the tankiest melee warriors although not necessarily the hardest to kill until Tier 3. But tanking is more than just surviving, it's keeping enemies off your buddies.

At level 6 they got 45 hp on average assuming 14 con. Even with the +9 temp HP tier 2 monsters can burn through that decently quickly (CR 6 has an expected damage of 40 a round). And since you are not doing damage during your round you use fear combats will take longer than average meaning you will take more damage than a tank that can also advance the fight.
A battlemaster fighter with 16 con will have 58 HP and an AC of 20 (ish, depends if shield or magic armor a bit). No chickens, but second wind for 11 points of healing, and can attack while applying the frightened condition. And we haven't gotten into feats yet.

long death geared for this is less a tank and more a suicide lead, at least against monsters resistant to/make there save against fear or have ranged damage options.

[CTurbo]

I'm a big fan of the mechanics of the Long Death Monk. I've played as one twice and never had any complaints. The first time we rolled for stats so I was able to start with 20 Dex and 18 Wis at level 1 and had Wis maxed at level 4 for 20 AC. I was THE tankiest character and right up there in DPR even before magic items were included. The Temp HP was always useful. I can brag about being the sole character than entire campaign to NEVER drop to 0 hp and I never resorted to killing bags of kittens or anything for extra HP lol. I was even pretty reckless with this guy and almost exclusively used ki for offense.


The second time we used point buy so I started 16 Dex and Wis and bumped Dex at 4 so this is a more accurate depiction of how it was meant to be. I didn't feel like an absolute powerhouse, but this was still a strong character. The temp HP was always useful even if it was an obviously smaller amount per kill. I didn't notice the AC being lower as much as I noticed it didn't deal near as much damage as the boosted stat version. I did play this guy more carefully though sometimes spending ki on Dashing, Dodging, or Disengaging.

I haven't had a chance to play a Mercy Monk, but it looks interesting. It looks different enough from Long Death and it's definitely not as tanky after level 11 when the Long Death becomes nearly unkillable.

[stoutstien]

At level 6 they got 45 hp on average assuming 14 con. Even with the +9 temp HP tier 2 monsters can burn through that decently quickly (CR 6 has an expected damage of 40 a round). And since you are not doing damage during your round you use fear combats will take longer than average meaning you will take more damage than a tank that can also advance the fight.
A battlemaster fighter with 16 con will have 58 HP and an AC of 20 (ish, depends if shield or magic armor a bit). No chickens, but second wind for 11 points of healing, and can attack while applying the frightened condition. And we haven't gotten into feats yet.

long death geared for this is less a tank and more a suicide lead, at least against monsters resistant to/make there save against fear or have ranged damage options.

Tossing a single target at a monk isn't going to help the fighter's case. Even the toughest NPC blocks around CR 5-6 only have +3 to CON so it a good chance they can just SS and practically end that encounter.

If the monk is particularly unlucky and enters the encounter with low or no Ki they can just skirt the edge of the HoR range and move away to force the opponent to adapt. If the fighter is out of resources they have to hope they can burn down the enemy before they take out an alley.

Tanking with a monk is not straightforward which makes it difficult for a lot of people to appreciate. At the same time this is what makes them good at it. They can adequately fulfill the role in normal circumstances while simultaneously when they hit a circumstance that would Stonewall a fighter, barbarian, or paladin they can just make minor shifts on tactics and keep on trucking. Fighter tanks. Monks interfere.

[MaxWilson]

At level 6 they got 45 hp on average assuming 14 con. Even with the +9 temp HP tier 2 monsters can burn through that decently quickly (CR 6 has an expected damage of 40 a round). And since you are not doing damage during your round you use fear combats will take longer than average meaning you will take more damage than a tank that can also advance the fight.
A battlemaster fighter with 16 con will have 58 HP and an AC of 20 (ish, depends if shield or magic armor a bit). No chickens, but second wind for 11 points of healing, and can attack while applying the frightened condition. And we haven't gotten into feats yet.

Would you care to test this with some die rolling?

An AC 17-18 (depends on rolls, point buy gets you 17) Long Death monk with Defensive Duelist on one side, an AC 20ish Battlemaster Fighter on the other, and let's make the other PCs squishies who need a tank: say, a Fiendlock, a Diviner, and a Lore Bard. Everybody is level 6. Long Rest spellcasters are completely out of spell slots and relying on cantrips, but they've just completed a short rest and everybody is (back) at full HP.

They're in a Deadly fight: after taking a T intersection in a dungeon, they open the door to a room and find themselves under attack by 2 Skulks, 2 Ogres, and 1 Ogre Battering Ram inside the room, plus 1 Quickling and 2 Skulks attacking from behind (Skulks are hidden until they attack unless they fail Stealth).

Dungeon corridors are 10' wide, and doorways are sized for Ogres (10' wide).

Do you want the Battlemaster or the Long Death Monk as your tank in this situation? Do you really think the monk is squishier than the Battlemaster?

[Falconcry]

They were closer before Mercy got so badly neutered in Tasha’s.

[stoutstien]

They were closer before Mercy got so badly neutered in Tasha’s.

Mechanically I would say mercy came out ahead compared to UA.

-healing hand is only one ki when used with FoB. Cheap on demand healing.

- hand of harm isn't as powerful but it still works just fine. Later on it gets cheap as heck to spam.

- cloud of stink vs counter conditions and automatically poison on harm hits. The cloud was actually pretty hard to use. Con saves are rough and poison damage is well poison.

- moved to lv 6 feature. Cheaper healing and damage. This is a straight up buff.

-capstone. Yea I'll take a basically free Resurrection once a day over gentle repose 2.0.

*Maybe I'm missing something I'm going off my notes.*

[Witty Username]

Definitely the battlemaster. We are going to take PAM and Sentinel with 18 str, since we are variant human for solidarity. The diviner will cast hypnotic pattern on the ogres/skulks. 18 int DC 15 likely one success. they are mostly out of the fight. Your job is route skulks and kill quicklings. If your party has see invisibility now is the time. menacing attack+ Action surge+PAM means 5 attacks up to four menacing. Priority quicklings because you can kill them in one hit. You have a 60% chance to hit quicklings, with an average damage of 9.5 you are pretty likely to get one hit kills, almost guaranteed with a damage boost, like menacing attack. So two menacing attacks, two dead quicklings, and two misses. then you have a hail Mary against a skulk (you might as well). then the enemies, assuming they attack you, you have 2 skulks, they have advantage vs AC 20 which likely means 1 hit for 13 damage. the skulk/ogre from the other side will likely attack other members of the party, if the warlock or bard
haven't figured something out. I would recommend tasha's hideous laughter. either way not your job at the moment. Round 2 you have two skulks to control, I only have two attacks so I would probably think about eliminating 1 then and worry about the other next round. but either way the fight is winding down.

As for long death monk, they use their fear, save DC 14. They are likely to catch 1 quickling, 2 ogres(hopefully the battering ram as one of them), and 3 of the sulks and then you take the dogde action positioning the monk between the party and the ogre. leaving one quickling, one ogre and 1 skulk, the ogre and the quickling can flank to negate the ogre's disadvantage. and the skulk is invisible. the best bet is is to use defensive duelist on the ogre giving an AC 20 for that and a 17 for the others. factoring in to hit you are looking at 10.9+14.2+3=28.2. Round 2 is the stickler, since fear and dodge again is the option since you are keeping most of the fight down. so repeat and hope the grouping stays the same. All the flow of the fight is on your allies, they are probably going to work on the quickling, then the skulk then the ogre.

I propose a scenario 2: same party, same hallway, different monsters still within a deadly encounter for the party. 1 bone devil. would you prefer a battle master or a long death monk?

[MaxWilson]

(A) The diviner will cast hypnotic pattern on the ogres/skulks. 18 int DC 15 likely one success. they are mostly out of the fight. Your job is route skulks and kill quicklings. If your party has (B) see invisibility now is the time.

I propose a scenario 2: same party, same hallway, different monsters still within a deadly encounter for the party. (C) 1 bone devil. would you prefer a battle master or a long death monk?

(A) and (B), you can't. Diviner and Lore Bard have no spell slots, remember? This fight will be fought on warlock slots and cantrips. Try again.

(C) Against only one monster a Fighter is better, but Stunning Strike is also much better. I guess I'd take the monk, partly for ki-empowered strikes so I'm not stuck doing half damage like the Battlemaster is. In this scenario it's not worth using Hour of Reaping because there's only one enemy, so attack (with Stunning Strike) + Patient Defense to buy time while everyone else cantrips. Then once it's stunned, grapple it (autosuccess) and resume attacking it (Martial Arts bonus attack). No Flurry to conserve ki for stunning.

I'm willing to roll this out. I assume you want your Battlemaster to have Sentinel and Polearm Master and Str 20 and a halberd?

[Witty Username]

(A) and (B), you can't. Diviner and Lore Bard have no spell slots, remember? This fight will be fought on warlock slots and cantrips. Try again.

(C) Against only one monster a Fighter is better, but Stunning Strike is also much better. I guess I'd take the monk, partly for ki-empowered strikes so I'm not stuck doing half damage like the Battlemaster is. In this scenario it's not worth using Hour of Reaping because there's only one enemy, so attack (with Stunning Strike) + Patient Defense to buy time while everyone else cantrips. Then once it's stunned, grapple it (autosuccess) and resume attacking it (Martial Arts bonus attack). No Flurry to conserve ki for stunning.

I'm willing to roll this out. I assume you want your Battlemaster to have Sentinel and Polearm Master and Str 20 and a halberd?

My apologies, I missed the no spell slots, in that case. Same thing but the warlock casts hypnotic pattern instead.

Str 18 is fine, 16+2str for 6th level, 4th for sentinel. vh for pole arm master.

[MaxWilson]

My apologies, I missed the no spell slots, in that case. Same thing but the warlock casts hypnotic pattern instead.

Str 18 is fine, 16+2str for 6th level, 4th for sentinel. vh for pole arm master.

Okay. What's your plan for making the Quicklings and Skulks attack the Battlemaster instead of the squishies?

[Witty Username]

My plan was to use damage pressure and menacing attack, essentially frighten survivors and kill the weaker foes to limit attacks that can go at the party
prior to combat, probably bard inspires the warlock for concentration JIC

I have the rolls, this was actually pretty fun:(not done yet, got to step out)

roll 14 / 14 hit menacing attack
damage 4roll d10 +4 rolld8 +4
dead

roll 6 miss

action surge
roll 8 miss

roll 19/20 hit
damage 9 roll d10+ 4 13 menacing attack wasted
dead

bonus attack skulk
roll 8 miss

end of turn
2 quicklings dead

warlock casts hypnotic pattern hits 2 ogres, 1 battering ram
& 2 skulks
skulk 1
roll 5 fail
skulk 2
roll 12 fail
ogre 1
roll 4 fail
ogre 2
roll 16-2= 14 fail
battering ram
roll 15-2= 13 fail
neat the warlock beat the odds

skulks, DM required, since skulks can bypass pam the will attack the warlock
skulk 1
roll 14/10 +6 for 20 hit
cutting words? - 7 to turn into a miss
skulk 2
roll 13/12 for 19 hit
damage 11
concentration save from warlock
roll 2(feck) +5 from bardic inspiration

wizard &
bard cantrip
wizard casts firebolt
roll 6 miss
bard actully doesn't have a useable attack cantrip I think, uses minor illusion
to block one of the skulks vision of the warlock

bard uses third inspiration on warlock and braces

skulks have the mindset to go in and then back out
but the ogres don't

so 2 skulks and 1 ogre
attack the wizard and bard
Rolls
skulk 1
roll 9/19 hit
damage 11
skulk
roll 16/16
damage 16

ogre
roll nat 1 miss

back to the top
fighter
will make two attacks against one of the skulks
roll 8/4 miss
attack 2
roll 11/17 hit
damage 1 d10+ 5 d8 + 4 = 10
save roll 6 fail frightened

bonus attack
the other skulk
roll 15/11 hit
damage 2 d4 + 4 = 6
save 16-2 14 fail frightened
warlock
hypnotic pattern 2
same targets
skulk 1
roll 2 fail
skulk 2
roll 1 fail
ogre 1
roll 6 fail
ogre 2
roll 19-2 17 success
battering ram
roll 1 fail

skulks active skulks
frightened
roll 2 miss
roll 6 miss



wizard firebolt
roll 15/10 total 17 hit
19 damage
1 frightened skulk dies

Bard
vicious mockery on the awake ogre
save roll 11 fail
damage 6 and debuff
life Ogre blocked by the incapacitated ogre, DM ruling required,
probably uses action to wake the first

back to the top
fighter will attack the last active skulk
flanked by party, so strait rolls
roll 5 miss
roll 7 miss
roll 19 hit
damage 8 plus previous 6 for 14
still alive

warlock will abscond behind the fighter
triggering attack of opportunity
roll 8/14
cutting words(last inspiration) - 4 for 16, hit
damage 16 plus previous 11 for 27
concentration save nat 20 success
ogre at disadvantage
roll 4 miss

eldritch blast skulk
roll 5 miss
roll 16/15 hit
damage (assuming agonizing blast) min 5
dead

bard & wizard will abscond behind the fighter
and unleash cantrips
vicious mockery
save 9 fail
damage 7
firebolt
roll 4+7=11 hit
damage 3

front ogre's total damage 10
back ogre total damage 6

front ogre will move in
fighter will pam attack
roll 16 hit
speed 0
damage 5

back ogre blocked by front ogre

back to the top
fighter will attack the front ogre
roll 5+7 for 12 hit
damage 9
2nd roll 3 miss
bonus action
roll 9 hit
damage 5
and back step 5ft

warlock eldritch blast
roll 5 hit
roll 2 miss
damage 6

bard vicious mockery
roll 10 save fail
damage 6

wizard firebolt
roll 13
damage 9

squishys will udjust to be behind fighter

front ogre total damage 50

front ogre will move in
fighter PAM
roll nat 1
ogre attacks fighter
roll 5 miss

top of the round
figher will attack the front ogre
roll nat 1
roll 2
roll 4
damage 5

and will back step to position
AOO from front ogre
roll 5 miss

warlock eldritch blast
roll 19
damage 6

front ogre damage 64 dies
roll 10
damage 8
moves to position

bard & wizard
save 12 fail
damage 2
roll 19
damage 7

It is at this point that I remember that ogres have javelins in their stat block.

[Omni-Centrist]

In tier 3 maybe, but you don’t want a long death monk tanking in tier1-2. They have crap ac, their temphp is small and they’re basically no better than any other monk at tanking (eg pretty bad). The control they bring with their 6th lvl feature is ok, but it’s resisted a good amount, and it costs an entire action.

Way of mercy is definitely strong in tier 1-2, they nova pretty hard for a monk and they’ll end up with a good amount of effective hp from the healing and they don’t have to waste an entire turn doing no damage to apply their debuff. Removing the debuffs is also excellent.

Long death is a lategame build and made for one shots.

I think Long Death is probably best with a STR monk with a dip in Barbarian. You get a Mob Grinder.

[MaxWilson]

My plan was to use damage pressure and menacing attack, essentially frighten survivors and kill the weaker foes to limit attacks that can go at the party
prior to combat, probably bard inspires the warlock for concentration JIC

I have the rolls, this was actually pretty fun:(not done yet, got to step out)

roll 14 / 14 hit menacing attack
damage 4roll d10 +4 rolld8 +4
dead

roll 6 miss

action surge
roll 8 miss

roll 19/20 hit
damage 9 roll d10+ 4 13 menacing attack wasted
dead

bonus attack skulk
roll 8 miss

end of turn
2 quicklings dead

warlock casts hypnotic pattern hits 2 ogres, 1 battering ram
& 2 skulks
skulk 1
roll 5 fail
skulk 2
roll 12 fail
ogre 1
roll 4 fail
ogre 2
roll 16-2= 14 fail
battering ram
roll 15-2= 13 fail
neat the warlock beat the odds

skulks, DM required, since skulks can bypass pam the will attack the warlock
skulk 1
roll 14/10 +6 for 20 hit
cutting words? - 7 to turn into a miss
skulk 2
roll 13/12 for 19 hit
damage 11
concentration save from warlock
roll 2(feck) +5 from bardic inspiration

Before you can attack the skulks, there needs to be a stealth vs. Passive Perception roll, and if they win then you can't detect them until they've made an attack on a squishy. Before you can attack anybody at all, there needs to be an initiative roll.

I don't know what "damage pressure" means in this context but the monsters have zero reason to attack the heavily armored fighter first. You have to physically prevent them, e.g. by grappling an Ogre and using it to block the door, protecting the party from one direction.

So, I don't think you get to kill those 2 quicklings without rolling initiative, to target the skulks with Hypnotic Pattern without bearing their stealth, or to cast Hypnotic Pattern without rolling initiative.

Unfortunately that makes the whole combat log invalid, have to reroll from the beginning.

I'll edit this post to add my log for the osyluth (bone devil) fight, in a bit. Will post log separatedly below for clarity.

[Witty Username]

Well I don't fudge dice rolls. Want to see if your monk survives?

assumtions
warlock has bardic inspiration to help with concentration just in case
wizard has mage armor up as part of its AC

the party has a light source to help with there sight

the party just finished the short rest in this hallway to account for the
2 groups of monsters comming in at the same time, this is because with how I
DM the 2 skulks and 2 quicklings would likely be tailing the party otherwise
and if caught would be fought seperately (which wouldn't be in the spirit of
the challenge).

thrown weapons
quickling A (7)
quickling B (5)
Ogre A (7)
Ogre B (2)
prior to combat stealth rolls
Skulk A 17
Skulk B 14
Skulk C 17
Skulk D 25
quicklings are out of sight range and so do not require stealth

One last thing, I group monsters by inititive bonus to reduce rolling
and tracking space. It shouldn't effect things too much

Inititive quicklings and skulks operate with suprise
Warlock 18
Bard 17 (assuming + 4 due to jack of all trades) roll off 8
skulks 17 roll off 5
quicklings 14
fighter 10 (I am assuming a +2 to initiative)
Wizard 5
Ogres 5

Round 1
Warlock: no action, Bard: no action
skulks: 2 attack the warlock, 1 attacks wizard, 1 attacks bard stealth broken
rolls warlock 5/6 miss, 19/5 hit damage 11(rolls 4,1,2). wizard 7/6 miss, bard 16/13 hit damage 12(5+2+1)
skulks retreat to give room for the ogres and quicklings
quicklings will move to attack wizard(they can move though enemy squares and are likely to attack the least armored)
flub[oportunity attack from the warlock
eldritch blast
rolls 19\1 miss, 10/4 miss
]- no effect on the encounter
rolls 20 Crit damage 11 (3+2), 20 crit 12(2+4), 13(+8) hit damage 7(1), 20 crit damage 10(2+2) wizard down, auto crit twice
hp check wizard 38 (damage taken 40) four failed death saving throws wizard dies
Fighter no action, Ogres no action
quicklings will return, 5 ft closer than the original position
so 55ft away

Round 2
Warlock casts hypnotic pattern hits the 3 ogres and happens to catch the 2 skulks in the area of effect
DC 14 rolls skulk A 11 fail, skulk B nat 1 fail, ogre A 12 fail, ogre B 8 fail, Battering Ram 16 success
Bard will use vicous mockery on the battering ram
DC 15 roll 10 fail damage 6 disadvantage on the next attack
skulks move in
2 attacks at the warlock,
rolls 1/10 cutting words 2 miss, 14/19 hit damage 15(4+4+3) con save 8/1(+2) success advantage due to warcaster
quicklings move in to attack the warlock 1 provokes an oportinity attack from the fighter
rolls 16/20 hit damage 10 quickling dies
remaining quickling's attacks rolls 3 miss, 15 hit damage 7 con save 10/4 success, 5 miss
damage check warlock 33(7+15+11) (45 total hp)
flub[the quickling would likey move out of the way of the skulks- oportunity attack from the warlock
eldritch blast
rolls 9/3 miss, 19/12 hit damage 9
]- no effect on the encounter unless its the alt round 3
fighter
will move up on the unincapacitated skulks
3 attacks roll 16/4 miss, 10/10 hit menacing attack damage 10 save 8 fail frightened, third attack at the other one 6 miss
battering ram will attack the bard roll 2 miss

Round 3 Warlock will eldritch blast the active unfrightened skulk
rolls 10/10 hit damage 8, 15/17 hit damage 4
bard will fire a light crossbow shot at the active unfrightened skulk
rolls 14/17 hit 4 damage
One skulk will attack the warlock
20 crit 25 damage warlock drops
quickling will go for a buss triggering a reaction attack
rolls 6/9 percision attack + 2 miss
quickling probably kills the warlock here.

Edit:
Just for fun I decided to do an alt round 3 with a better result
alt round 3 just for fun
Round 3 Warlock will fireball the two active skulks
from most to least damaged
roll 14 success, roll 7 fail
damage 28, 14 for the successful
both skulks die
bard will vicious mockery the battering ram uses bardic inspiration on the fighter
save 10 fail damage 4 disadvantage on next attack
quickling will go for a buss triggering a reaction attack
rolls 6/9 percision attack + 2 inspiration + 8 hit damage 9
quickling dies
Battering ram attacks bard
roll 4 miss

round 4
warlock eldritch blast battering ram
rolls 14 hit damage 11, 20 crit damage 11
backs away to allow the fighter to set up
bard
vicious mockery
save 19 success
backs away to be in line with warlock AOO
roll 11(+6 for 17) hit damage 12
bard damage check 24
fighter moves into reach and attacks
roll 5 miss, roll 19 hit damage + menacing attack damage 14 save 12 fail frighened, 19 hit damage 6
battering ram will block the path

Round 5
eldritch blast
rolls 18/7 miss, 14/7 miss
vicious mockery
save 16(-1 for 15) success
fighter will attack
rolls 2 miss, 14/13 hit damage 12, 14/13 damage 5
back away to allow for PAM
battering ram will charge forward AOO
roll 15 hit damage 8 speed 0
will block the path

Round 6
eldritch blast
rolls 14/2 miss, 19/13 hit damage 13
battering ram damage check 68, battering ram dies
No active monsters

aftermath, maybe some frustration disarming the skulks but can use flanking to negate disadvantage and each ogre will have the same issues as the battering ram, with a note that they have javelins but the fighter will likely be the target because the ogre is not that smart and will likely react the worst to the character blocking its charge. wizard is still dead cause of that dreadful surprise round.

lesson 1, don't be stingy with spells during deadly encounters.

[MaxWilson]

Here's my log for the Osyluth (Bone Devil) fight. For simplicity and fairness, wherever possible I gave the Fighter and the Monk the same rolls.

Fighter is a Str 18 Dex 12 Con 16 Sentinel/Polearm Master Battlemaster with Menacing Strike, Precise Strike, and Riposte. AC 19 from plate armor and defense style, 58 HP.
Monk is a Dex 18 Con 14 Wis 16 Defensive Duelist Long Death Monk. AC 17 (+3 on a reaction), 45 HP, +9 temp HP. Dagger in off hand for Defensive Duelist.

Diviner Wizard (Int 18, Dex 12, Con 12) is using Toll the Dead (DC 15). AC 14 (Mage Armor), 32 HP. Portent dice: 10, 5.
Lore Bard (Cha 18, Dex 14, Con 13) is using Vicious Mockery (DC 15). AC 14 (Studded Leather), 39 HP. 4 Bardic Inspiration d6s.
Fiendlock (Cha 18, Dex 12, Con 13) in this fight will use Hunger of Hadar and then Agonizing Eldritch Blast.

I'll use PHB initiative for this for simplicity, even though in real life I can't stand it (too easily gamed, and not enough interplayer interaction).

Init rolls: Osyluth 16+3, Diviner 2+1, Lore Bard 20+2, Fiendlock 12+1, Fighter/Monk 13+1/13+4. Lore Bard penalizes Osyluth's initiative with Cutting Words (1), has no net effect. Final order: Lore Bard, Osyluth, Fighter/Monk, Fiendlock, Diviner, repeat.

Lore Bard: Vicious Mockery, 9+6 fails. Saving Bardic Inspiration for Cutting Words, does not inspire.
Osyluth: claw 3+8 fails, 6+8 fails, 20 crit for 10d6+4d8+4 = 64 points of damage. Fighter/Monk goes down.

At this point I stop the fight because, well, without any healing magic it's pretty much over at this point. :-P Just to make sure I roll all 5 death saves to see if the Fighter/Monk would have spontaneously regained 1 HP at any point: 6+9+8+3+18, nope, would have just died. This fight may or may not be a TPK but the Fighter/Monk is definitely down and probably at least one other PC dies too--their only hope is to scatter in all directions and hope the Osyluth can't kill all of them.

Unfortunately we didn't get to see any differences between monk and fighter in this fight. :-)

If the Cutting Words roll had been 3+ instead of 1, then the Monk would have gone before the Osyluth. Let's see what would have happened then:

Monk attacks (11+7 miss, 19+7 hit for 5 damage, Stunning Strike: Diviner uses Portent (5), stun succeeds) and the Osyluth is stunned. Monk uses Martial Arts bonus attack, misses. Monk is down 1 ki, Osyluth has taken 5 damage.

Osyluth is stunned, does nothing.

Fiendlock decides to Hex + Eldritch Blast instead of Hunger of Hadar (change of plans) because HoH is partly cold damage, which Osyluths are resistant to, and the acid damage is subject to Magic Resistance. Hits twice for 8 and 11 HP of damage. Osyluth has taken 24 damage.

Diviner casts Toll the Dead. 13+6 fails.

Lore Bard casts Vicious Mockery. 17+6 fails.

Monk attacks (17+7 hits for 8 damage, stunning strike succeeds (1+4), attacks again, hitting once for 10 and missing with bonus attack). Osyluth has taken 42 damage. Monk is down 2 ki.

Osyluth is stunned, does nothing.

Fiendlock blasts twice, hits once for 11. Osyluth has taken 53 damage.

Diviner casts Toll the Dead, 20+6 fails.

Lore Bard casts Vicious Mockery, 20+6 fails.

Monk attacks (14+7 hits for 8 damage, Stunning Strike fails (14+4), misses on next attack (6+7)). Patient Defense with bonus action. Monk is down 4 ki. Osyluth has taken 61 damage.

Osyluth at this point gets to make its crit against the monk, but has disadvantage from Patient Defense. The would-be crit becomes... a 2. Monk escapes harm.

Fiendlock blasts twice. One hit (12+7) for 6+2+4 = 12 damage, one crit (20+7) for 16+4+4 = 24 damage. Osyluth has now taken 97 damage.

Diviner casts Toll the Dead, 16+6 fails.

Lore Bard casts Vicious Mockery, 10+6 fails.

Monk attacks: 9+7 misses, then 7+7 misses. Patient Defense. Monk is down 5 ki. Osyluth is at 97 damage.

Osyluth attacks monk: claw 15+8-6 (Cutting Words) hits for 11 HP of damage, claw 7+8 misses, sting 10+8 would hit but is parried by Defensive Duelist.

Fiendlock blasts twice: misses twice.

Will finish this later.

Diviner Toll the Dead: 10+6 fails.

Lore Bard Vicious Mockery: 16+6 fails.

Monk attacks: 16+7 hits for 7 damage, Stunning Strike with final ki point, succeeds (7+4). Attacks twice more, misses with both. Osyluth has taken 104 damage.

Fiendlock: two blasts, hit 17+7 for 10+1+4 = 15, hit 17+7 for 7+6+4 = 17. Osyluth has taken 136 damage.

Diviner Toll the Dead: 20+6 fails.

Bard Vicious Mockery: 11+6 fails.

Monk grapples (auto-success against incapacitated target) and then attacks twice: 4+7 misses, 12+7 hits for 6+4 = 10 damage. Osyluth dies.

Monk has taken 11 HP of damage and expended all 6 ki. Bard used 2 Inspiration dice. Warlock used 2 spell points on Hex.

[Witty Username]

my log for the bone devil putting in spoilers

bone devil scenario
silver weapons are being used
initiative
fighter 21
bard 20
wizard 18
warlock 6
bone devil nat 1

round 1
fighter will attack the bone devil
roll 3 miss, 6 miss, 4 miss
bard will minor illusion an obstacle between the bone devil and fighter will inspire the fighter
wizard will fire a light crossbow
roll 17 damage 6
warlock will cast hex(choosing strength) and eldritch blast
rolls 8 miss, 11 miss
bone devil is blocked by the fighter and so will attack the fighter, first attack at disadvantage
roll 5 miss, 11 cutting words -2 miss, 15 hit damage 27 fighter will parry reducing damage by 4 con save 3 miss poisoned
round 2
fighter will second wind heals 7
fighter will dodge, con save 4 fail
Bard will fire a crossbow
roll 19 damage 7
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 14 hit damage 8
warlock elritch blast
rolls nat 1, nat 1
bone devil attack the fighter
roll 14/11 cutting words 8 miss, 14/7 miss, 5 miss
round 3
fighter will dodge, con save 7(+6) inspiration +8 success no longer poisoned
Bard will fire a crossbow
roll nat 1
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 16 hit damage 5
warlock eldritch blast
roll 14 hit damage 9, roll 10 miss
bone devil
roll 5 miss, 4 miss, 5 miss
round 4
fighter will attack
rolls 5 miss, 8 miss, nat 1
bard will fire crossbow and inspire the fighter
roll 17 damage 7
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 7 miss
warlock eldritch blast
rolls 12 miss, 5 miss
bone devil attacks fighter
rolls nat 1, roll 4, roll 6
round 5
fighter will attack
rolls 4, roll 8, 5 miss
bard will fire crossbow
roll 5 miss
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 13(+6)19 hit damage 4
warlock
roll nat 1, roll 19 hit damage 11
bone devil
rolls 7 miss, 6 miss, 3 miss
round 6
fighter
rolls 2 miss, 17 hit damage + menacing attack damage 18 wis save 15 success, 2 miss
bard
roll 11 miss
wizard roll 18 damage 4
warlock rolls 12 miss, 8 miss
bone devil roll 18 hit damage 11 reaction parry 4, roll 11 miss, roll 10 miss
round 7
fighter 11 percision attack 4 hit damage 7, 5 miss, roll 8 miss
bard roll 8 miss
wizard roll 4 miss
warlock rolls 13(+6) 19 hit damage 19, roll 8 miss
bone devil rolls 14 cutting words 3 miss, 17 hit damage 9, roll 11 cutting words 2 miss,
round 8
fighter rolls 7 miss, roll 6 miss, roll 6 miss
bard roll 9 miss
wizard roll 17 hit damage 5
warlock nat 20 crit damage 20, nat 20 damage 22
bone devil damage check 152 dies finally

fighter damage check 32

looks like my only differences on the fighter dex 14 and parry instead of riposte and leaving open the possibility of +1 plate(hm, I keep forgetting armor is rare instead of uncommon After editing my log to account for AC 19 ended up using cutting words a couple of times more so than normal but the outcome is unchanged. I like 16, 14,16 stats to start more than I probably should.

The moral of the story is crits suck.

[stoutstien]

my log for the bone devil putting in spoilers

bone devil scenario
silver weapons are being used
initiative
fighter 21
bard 20
wizard 18
warlock 6
bone devil nat 1

round 1
fighter will attack the bone devil
roll 3 miss, 6 miss, 4 miss
bard will minor illusion an obstacle between the bone devil and fighter will inspire the fighter
wizard will fire a light crossbow
roll 17 damage 6
warlock will cast hex(choosing strength) and eldritch blast
rolls 8 miss, 11 miss
bone devil is blocked by the fighter and so will attack the fighter, first attack at disadvantage
roll 5 miss, 11 cutting words -2 miss, 15 hit damage 27 fighter will parry reducing damage by 4 con save 3 miss poisoned
round 2
fighter will second wind heals 7
fighter will dodge, con save 4 fail
Bard will fire a crossbow
roll 19 damage 7
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 14 hit damage 8
warlock elritch blast
rolls nat 1, nat 1
bone devil attack the fighter
roll 14/11 cutting words 8 miss, 14/7 miss, 5 miss
round 3
fighter will dodge, con save 7(+6) inspiration +8 success no longer poisoned
Bard will fire a crossbow
roll nat 1
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 16 hit damage 5
warlock eldritch blast
roll 14 hit damage 9, roll 10 miss
bone devil
roll 5 miss, 4 miss, 5 miss
round 4
fighter will attack
rolls 5 miss, 8 miss, nat 1
bard will fire crossbow and inspire the fighter
roll 17 damage 7
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 7 miss
warlock eldritch blast
rolls 12 miss, 5 miss
bone devil attacks fighter
rolls nat 1, roll 4, roll 6
round 5
fighter will attack
rolls 4, roll 8, 5 miss
bard will fire crossbow
roll 5 miss
wizard will fire crossbow
roll 13(+6)19 hit damage 4
warlock
roll nat 1, roll 19 hit damage 11
bone devil
rolls 7 miss, 6 miss, 3 miss
round 6
fighter
rolls 2 miss, 17 hit damage + menacing attack damage 18 wis save 15 success, 2 miss
bard
roll 11 miss
wizard roll 18 damage 4
warlock rolls 12 miss, 8 miss
bone devil roll 18 hit damage 11 reaction parry 4, roll 11 miss, roll 10 miss
round 7
fighter 11 percision attack 4 hit damage 7, 5 miss, roll 8 miss
bard roll 8 miss
wizard roll 4 miss
warlock rolls 13(+6) 19 hit damage 19, roll 8 miss
bone devil rolls 14 cutting words 3 miss, 17 hit damage 9, roll 11 cutting words 2 miss,
round 8
fighter rolls 7 miss, roll 6 miss, roll 6 miss
bard roll 9 miss
wizard roll 17 hit damage 5
warlock nat 20 crit damage 20, nat 20 damage 22
bone devil damage check 152 dies finally

fighter damage check 32

looks like my only differences on the fighter dex 14 and parry instead of riposte and leaving open the possibility of +1 plate(hm, I keep forgetting armor is rare instead of uncommon After editing my log to account for AC 19 ended up using cutting words a couple of times more so than normal but the outcome is unchanged. I like 16, 14,16 stats to start more than I probably should.

The moral of the story is crits suck.

If available, adamanite armor is worth having over +1 or even +2 plate unless you can guarantee that the majority of incoming attacks are going to be at disadvantage.

[MaxWilson]

bone devil roll 18 hit damage 11 reaction parry 4, roll 11 miss[11+8 is a hit -Max], roll 10 miss[10+8 is a hit unless you have Defense style -Max]
round 7
fighter 11 percision attack 4 hit damage 7, 5 miss, roll 8 miss
bard roll 8 miss
wizard roll 4 miss
warlock rolls 13(+6) 19 hit damage 19, roll 8 miss
bone devil rolls 14 cutting words 3 miss, 17 hit damage 9, roll 11 cutting words 2 miss[Can't Cutting Words twice in the same round so this is a hit. Edit: Also I think you've already used six Bardic Inspiration dice by this point: one warlock Inspiration pre-combat, a Fighter Inspiration on round 1 and a Fighter Inspiration on round 4, plus a Cutting Words on round 1, a Cutting Words on round 2, and the round 6 Cutting Words vs. claw that happened right before this Stinger attack. So really the claw attack should hit too. -Max],

*snip*

looks like my only differences on the fighter dex 14 and parry instead of riposte and leaving open the possibility of +1 plate(hm, I keep forgetting armor is rare instead of uncommon After editing my log to account for AC 19 ended up using cutting words a couple of times more so than normal but the outcome is unchanged. I like 16, 14,16 stats to start more than I probably should.

The moral of the story is crits suck.

Looks to me like the Fighter should have taken an additional claw hit, an additional stinger hit (which could poison the fighter), and perhaps an additional stinger hit on top of that (10+8 hits AC 18, so the Fighter would have to have Defense style to resist--did you intend for him to have Defense?). When I roll 2d8+4+5d6 + d8+4 I get 42 HP of damage, added to the 27-4=23 HP that the Fighter took on round 1, so the Fighter goes down and the outcome changes: PCs lose that fight.

The moral of the story: don't fight Bone Devils at level 6 when your spellcasters are squishy and out of spell slots. But if you do, a monk is more durable than a Battlemaster because Patient Defense counters crits and crits stink.

Honestly I'm not sure what that particular Osyluth fight was supposed to demonstrate but it was fun so no harm.

I still need to do the Long Death-specific fight (anti-mob tanking is the Long Death's wheelhouse) with Skulks/etc. I don't see how the Battlemaster can possibly keep anybody alive in that fight but maybe the monk can't either, we'll see.

[Witty Username]

Looks to me like the Fighter should have taken an additional claw hit, an additional stinger hit (which could poison the fighter), and perhaps an additional stinger hit on top of that (10+8 hits AC 18, so the Fighter would have to have Defense style to resist--did you intend for him to have Defense?). When I roll 2d8+4+5d6 + d8+4 I get 42 HP of damage, added to the 27-4=23 HP that the Fighter took on round 1, so the Fighter goes down and the outcome changes: PCs lose that fight.

The moral of the story: don't fight Bone Devils at level 6 when your spellcasters are squishy and out of spell slots. But if you do, a monk is more durable than a Battlemaster because Patient Defense counters crits and crits stink.

Honestly I'm not sure what that particular Osyluth fight was supposed to demonstrate but it was fun so no harm.

I still need to do the Long Death-specific fight (anti-mob tanking is the Long Death's wheelhouse) with Skulks/etc. I don't see how the Battlemaster can possibly keep anybody alive in that fight but maybe the monk can't either, we'll see.
drat, I did miss one
and a double cutting words too, I need to work on my proofreading.
I don't think I changes the outcome(of the battle, I will accept the defeat in the challenge) though, as the bone devil still goes down in the next round. However the fighter will need a potion.

But, yes I did intend defensive style, I tend to like it better most of the time in comparison to great weapon fighting. I realize I never actually said that though. sorry about that.

As for the bone devil, I thought it would be fun to see how the tanks worked against one brutish enemy as well as the group of enemies. That and I noticed all the enemies in scenario 1 had average to poor wisdom saves so I wanted to see if a high wisdom enemy affected the tanks abilities to function.

[MaxWilson]

drat, I did miss one
and a double cutting words too, I need to work on my proofreading.
I don't think I changes the outcome(of the battle, I will accept the defeat in the challenge) though, as the bone devil still goes down in the next round. However the fighter will need a potion.

But, yes I did intend defensive style, I tend to like it better most of the time in comparison to great weapon fighting. I realize I never actually said that though. sorry about that.

As for the bone devil, I thought it would be fun to see how the tanks worked against one brutish enemy as well as the group of enemies. That and I noticed all the enemies in scenario 1 had average to poor wisdom saves so I wanted to see if a high wisdom enemy affected the tanks abilities to function.

I think it does change the battle outcome. Without the Fighter, the Osyluth can close with the warlock (next most-threatening character), which will impose disadvantage on his attacks, which means he won't double-crit next round for 42 damage, which means the Osyluth doesn't die after all and gets to attack him again.

Also, I noticed that even after eliminating the double Cutting Words, you've still used 3 Bardic Inspiration (pre-battle on warlock, round 1 and 4 on fighter) and 3 Cutting Words (rounds 1, 2, and 7), so the Round 7 Cutting Words can't happen even if you have Cha 20.

P.S. I don't mind assuming Defensive Style. I agree that it's clearly the best style for a melee fighter. Just wanted to clarify for the record, in case, but I'm fine with AC 19 for the Fighter.

[Witty Username]

I think it does change the battle outcome. Without the Fighter, the Osyluth can close with the warlock (next most-threatening character), which will impose disadvantage on his attacks, which means he won't double-crit next round for 42 damage, which means the Osyluth doesn't die after all and gets to attack him again.

I figured the warlock would be in back, at least when my party's in a hallway as a bunch of ranged attackers they will tend to make the highest damage be in the back. since it is only a 10ft hallway. Looked up just to make sure, you only have disadvantage if they are within 5ft of you reach doesn't effect that.

I did forget the pre battle. that is an ops. for record I was assuming bard cha 18.

Yep 6 inspirations out of 4, sigh.

[MaxWilson]

I figured the warlock would be in back, at least when my party's in a hallway as a bunch of ranged attackers they will tend to make the highest damage be in the back. since it is only a 10ft hallway. Looked up just to make sure, you only have disadvantage if they are within 5ft of you reach doesn't effect that.

But the Osyluth can fit through a 5' gap using Squeezing Through Smaller Spaces rules, AND it flies so it can fly over PCs. The Osyluth would go for the warlock because the warlock has been doing the bulk of the damage for the whole encounter. If you put both the wizard and the bard side by side, blocking the way, the Osyluth would have to fly over their heads to reach the warlock, but the Osyluth would also have partial cover (AC 19+2 = 21) for the whole combat (or at least, while the bard and wizard are blocking the corridor) AND it still wouldn't prevent it from going over their heads after it kills the Fighter.

So I think it does change the outcome: the Osyluth lives, and the warlock probably dies shortly thereafter.

[Witty Username]

But the Osyluth can fit through a 5' gap using Squeezing Through Smaller Spaces rules, AND it flies so it can fly over PCs. The Osyluth would go for the warlock because the warlock has been doing the bulk of the damage for the whole encounter. If you put both the wizard and the bard side by side, blocking the way, the Osyluth would have to fly over their heads to reach the warlock, but the Osyluth would also have partial cover (AC 19+2 = 21) for the whole combat (or at least, while the bard and wizard are blocking the corridor) AND it still wouldn't prevent it from going over their heads after it kills the Fighter.

So I think it does change the outcome: the Osyluth lives, and the warlock probably dies shortly thereafter.


I thought that squeezing didn't apply to moving past hostile creatures. Oh well

warlock casts misty step and crits twice.

I realize I should clarify I was rolling claw/claw/ tail
but I understand why the devil may try to use the tail on the fighter first to take them out with attacks left over.
just going to roll a claw hit and a con save
12 damage con save 13 with inspiration so keeps hex

Edit: I feel bad about the tone of my post, getting to argumentative or something. I feel like am comfortable saying that I have lost this argument, but my mind is getting hung up on details.

[MaxWilson]

I thought that squeezing didn't apply to moving past hostile creatures. Oh well

warlock casts misty step and crits twice.

Oh yeah, good point, that works.