Suggestions for bardic Magic Initiate choices?

[thorr-kan]

Background: I'm theory-crafting a character for fun. Variant human with Magic Initiate feat, going to be a Charisma caster (but never a bard), Entertainer background (coulda been a bard, but never will be). I'm looking for usability over multiple levels and uniqueness to the bardic list. What cantrips and 1st-level spell would you choose for Magical Initiate?

My initial thought is:
Message - discreet and untappable comms are always good.
Vicious Mockery - damage is minor, but usually a non-resisted type, and gives minor battlefield control; plus unique to bards.
Heroism - minor buff, unique to the bardic and paladin list, scales with level.

[jojosskul]

Background: I'm theory-crafting a character for fun. Variant human with Magic Initiate feat, going to be a Charisma caster (but never a bard), Entertainer background (coulda been a bard, but never will be). I'm looking for usability over multiple levels and uniqueness to the bardic list. What cantrips and 1st-level spell would you choose for Magical Initiate?

My initial thought is:
Message - discreet and untappable comms are always good.
Vicious Mockery - damage is minor, but usually a non-resisted type, and gives minor battlefield control; plus unique to bards.
Heroism - minor buff, unique to the bardic and paladin list, scales with level.

So one thing I'd like to know is WHICH Charisma Caster you're going to be, either Warlock or Sorcerer. Their spell lists are different, and they play differently so that will influence some of the choices.

I completely agree on Vicious Mockery. It's unique to Bards and will give you the most Bard "flavor".

If your character is a Warlock, Dancing Lights/Light/Mending aren't on the Warlock list, so I'd recommend grabbing one of those. Otherwise except for Vicious Mockery every cantrip on the Bard list is already on the Sorcerer list.

I wouldn't take Heroism. Mainly because since you're taking Magic Initiate Bard but aren't a bard yourself, the spell you pick WON'T scale with level. It only gets added to your official spells known if your Magic Initiate pick is the same as your actual class. Whatever first level spell you get will be a once a long rest sort of thing.

I know it sounds cheesy, but unless you're a Divine Soul Sorcerer I'd recommend Healing Word. A once a day free pick up of a downed ally, like for instance someone else who can cast healing word, can be invaluable.

Oddly enough Animal Friendship might be fun. It lasts 24 hours so the once a long rest casting doesn't really hurt you, so you could use your bardic abilities to essentially get an animal buddy.

EDIT: Completely forgot Command and Tasha's Hideous Laughter. Neither are Warlock/Sorcerer spells and are really really good for control. Dissonant Whispers is also a Bard only spell and in the right party can just straight up murderize something with opportunity attacks. Sure these spells will only be once a day, but all three of them have the ability to be super impactful when you cast them.

[thorr-kan]

I wouldn't take Heroism. Mainly because since you're taking Magic Initiate Bard but aren't a bard yourself, the spell you pick WON'T scale with level. It only gets added to your official spells known if your Magic Initiate pick is the same as your actual class. Whatever first level spell you get will be a once a long rest sort of thing
It's *cantrips* that scale with character level, instead of spells, isn't it? I always get that backwards.

[Sandeman]

I recommend Faerie Fire.
Great debuff and it probably looks very cool.

[thorr-kan]

So one thing I'd like to know is WHICH Charisma Caster you're going to be, either Warlock or Sorcerer. Their spell lists are different, and they play differently so that will influence some of the choices.
And I missed this before. Divine Soul Sorcerer or Celestial Pact Warlock. I'm undecided. Maybe I'll multiclass.

[diplomancer]

I'd say dissonant whispers; Bard exclusive, scales with the party, no-concentration

[Lyracian]

The rules are unclear if Magic Initiative spells count as known spells to use with your normal spell slots. Check with your DM as that may effect your choice of 1st level spell.

If you can use spell slots I would look at Healing Word or Cure Wounds as you cannot get them as a Warlock. Celestial Sorcerer could get them though.

Dissonant Whispers is the exclusive Bard spell and can be good fun with a party that has a lot of melee characters.

Detect Magic without needing a spell slot can be useful but Warlocks may be able to do that too.

As for cantrips Mockery all the way. The other will be whatever you want to round out the character depending on class picked.

[Stattick]

Unless something says that you "Learn" or "Know" a spell, then you cannot cast it with slots. Magic Initiate DOES NOT say that you learn or know the 1st level spell, merely that you can cast it once per day with that feat. GM's may, of course, house rule that to be different.

[Lyracian]

Unless something says that you "Learn" or "Know" a spell, then you cannot cast it with slots. Magic Initiate DOES NOT say that you learn or know the 1st level spell, merely that you can cast it once per day with that feat. GM's may, of course, house rule that to be different.

I do not want to derail this topic with a pointless discussion about Magic Initiate. However if you read the words on page 168 it does actually say you LEARN the spell.



Page 101: The Spells Known column of the Sorcerer table shows when you LEARN more sorcerer spells of your choice.
Page 168: In addition, choose one 1st-level spell to LEARN from that same list.


Sage Advice (https://dnd.wizards.com/articles/sage-advice/sage-advice-compendium) suggests you can cast it with slots only if it is also your class


f you have spell slots, can you use them to cast the 1st-level spell you learn with the Magic Initiate feat? Yes, but only if the class you pick for the feat is one of your classes.


There is no clear answer in the rule book and sage advice is a recommendation not ruling. Therefore it is important to ask your DM if they have a view. Personally I have been following the SA answer in my games it does not mean everyone is. I am also thinking of revising that view in light of the feats in Tasha's Cauldron.

[thorr-kan]

Note that this use of bardic Magic Initiate is for someone who will never be a bard.

[MarkVIIIMarc]

Background: I'm theory-crafting a character for fun. Variant human with Magic Initiate feat, going to be a Charisma caster (but never a bard), Entertainer background (coulda been a bard, but never will be). I'm looking for usability over multiple levels and uniqueness to the bardic list. What cantrips and 1st-level spell would you choose for Magical Initiate?

My initial thought is:
Message - discreet and untappable comms are always good.
Vicious Mockery - damage is minor, but usually a non-resisted type, and gives minor battlefield control; plus unique to bards.
Heroism - minor buff, unique to the bardic and paladin list, scales with level.

So simply you want some fun with Bard spells that are very "Bardie" and powerful?

Vicious Mockery is ridiculously Bardie. It gives you plenty of chances to say funny or lame things. It gets hoots and hollers when it actually kills a bad guy. It makes the DM cringe when you remind him that his bad guy has to re-roll his hit thanks to the disadvantage. IMO this one is underrated especially against low Wisdom opponents.

Message was been a fun one for me out of combat and it has occasional combat or pre combat usefulness.

Healing Word isn't ridiculously "Bardie" but my Bard got tons of use out of it. As a Bonus Action ranged heal it may be the most powerful 1st level spell.

Dissonant Whispers was mentioned above. Too bad you can't take it and Healing Word. D.W. causes movement and opportunity attacks. Let a bad guy get into melee with your Paladin and Rogue friends while Animated Objects are floating around and Dissonant Whispers might cause ridiculous damage.

Minor Illusion and Prestidigitation both play well with a bard's performance theme. They're not unique to Bards though. A Bard setting up some kind of archery competition might be the most likely character to get use out of True Strike.

[thorr-kan]

So simply you want some fun with Bard spells that are very "Bardie" and powerful?
"Bardie" and useful, but yeah. Pretty much.

[jojosskul]

Finally cycling back to this thread, holidays ar enuts and forgot to turn on notifications for it. Doh!

So, based on what you said I think my final recommendation for the spell choice for MI: Bard if you're playing the Celestial Warlock would be Bane. It's a great spell that will hopefully last you a full combat and have impact throughout. For when your normal casting is out of gas (especially possible with Warlock) Bane stays useful throughout your adventuring career and always has a decent chance of landing on SOMETHING. And the nice thing is that once it lands there is NO SUBSEQUENT SAVE. They're stuck until you stop concentrating or the spell ends. Sure you can only cast it once a day, but that once a day uses no spell slots.

If you're playing Divine Soul Sorcerer, you'll have access to Bane anyway as well as Bless. Tasha's Hideous Laughter would be my go to here, since it isn't on either the Sorcerer or Cleric spell lists. Once again it scales extremely well because no matter what level you are, if they fail that save it doesn't matter if they're an Orc or a Griffon (also falls out of the sky if flying) or an Ancient Red Dragon (gotta burn those pesky legendary saves first) they're out of commission. And Tasha's Hideous Laughter is very bardy, in fact I'd honestly make it my second choice for the Celestial Warlock.

I do want to address Dissonant Whispers. It is an amazing spell for a bard, but in my opinion a once per spell from Magic Initiate should have more of an impact than a one round affect. A good concentration based control spell will last you for one entire battle per day. If this was adding Dissonant Whispers to your actual SPELL LIST, that would be different. But you're an adventurer who wanted to be a bard but never will be, so for me Dissonant Whispers is out.

My previous cantrip recommendation stand on both counts. Hope this helps!

[thorr-kan]

Most suggestions for Dissonant Whispers or Healing Word.

I'll be honest; Dissonant Whispers was my original idea, but with Vicious Mockery, it seemed like a duplication. Healing Word was a possibility too, but Heroism caught my eye as an actual buff.

I'll have to look over Heroism and Healing Word again.

Thanks, everybody.

[thorr-kan]

After consideration, I'm still going with Heroism. It's limited to bards (and paladins, yes), is a buff, and grants +Cha bonus temporary hit points/round. Used by a Cha caster, that bonus should be useful for awhile.

The bonus action of Healing Word made it a real close choice, though.

Thanks, all.