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Elastoid
2020-12-30, 11:34 PM
So I've seen like four different iterations of the Dart-based Fighter in various places -- Thrown Weapon Style + Sharpshooter + Archery + Darts = +12 damage per dart. It's interesting and all, I just don't like it because it seems like just a worse crossbow expert. I was looking for a fun, new way to play a Fighter. I created more of an Omni-thrower, whom I named (aptly) Chuck.

Chuck is an 8th-level strength-based Battle Master and he can do some interesting things. He's Custom Lineage (Strength, Darkvision) and took the Crusher feat (STR+1) and Dueling fighting style at level 1. At level 3, he took Pushing Attack, Trip Attack and Quick Toss. At level 4, he took Fighting Initiate (Thrown Weapon Style). At level 6, he took Slasher (STR+1). At level 7, he added Menacing Attack and Brace to his repertoire. Finally, at level 8 he took the Piercer feat (STR+1).

It's fortunate Chuck is so strong, because he carries light hammers, javelins, spears and handaxes galore. He's a walking arsenal. His goal is to force everything around him to bend to his will by throwing things at it. Crusher lets him move anything Large or smaller 5 feet whenever he throws a light hammer at it. He can even move you towards him by 5 feet, which I picture as hitting them in the knee and staggering them forward. Slasher lets him throw a hand axe at you and reduce your speed by 10ft till his next turn. These two abilities are his bread and butter, each being available once per turn, and each requiring no saving throw -- they just happen.

These synergize really well with the other control-y effects Battle Master offers like Pushing Attack, Trip Attack and Menacing Attack. Chuck can throw a handaxe that pushes you back 15 feet and reduces your speed by 10. He can push you back 5 feet with a Menacing Attack that leaves you too frightened to move back up. He can trip you from afar and then close the distance to wail on you in melee. And because the Crusher and Slasher effects are once per turn, Chuck can use one with Brace, making it a "mini-Sentinel" with Slasher reducing your speed by 10 feet or allowing him to slam them 5 feet in a direction with Crusher.

Chuck likes that Quick Toss gives him a free attack with his bonus action, but he doesn't like that it requires a Superiority Die that could otherwise be used for a maneuver, and that the Quick Toss attack can't be paired with another maneuver. Often, instead, he uses two-weapon fighting. Here is how he does this: he begins the round with a weapon in his main hand, such as a spear. He throws that spear, so his hands are now empty. He uses his interaction to draw a weapon in his off-hand (likely a hand axe or a light hammer). He then makes another main-hand attack (Thrown Weapon Fighting allows him to draw a weapon in his main hand as part of the attack). The main-hand attack is made with a weapon in the off-hand, so it does not benefit from the Dueling fighting style, but it allows him to use a bonus action to throw his off-hand weapon (which would gain the benefit of the Dueling fighting style). In doing this, he sacrifices some damage (off-hand doesn't get strength modifier, main hand doesn't get Dueling) but preserves a superiority die and allows himself to use a maneuver on his off-hand attack if he wishes. Doing this does leave him without a weapon in hand until his next turn, however -- he would be unable to use Brace (Brace requires that they enter the range of a melee weapon "you're wielding." You could, however, make an opportunity attack if they leave your range, drawing the weapon as part of the attack -- so long as the weapon has the thrown property.).

Chuck excels at fighting on complex or interesting battlefields, like a narrow bridge, a mountainous ledge, or an area with a lot of cover or difficult terrain. He uses light hammers and hand axes to control the battlefield, and uses javelins for that extra range and more reliable damage (from Piercer). He doesn't shy away from melee combat, though -- especially if he trips an enemy, in which case he'll gladly rush forward and use action surge to get his advantaged attacks off, as any critical hit will produce an additional effect (from Slasher, Crusher or Piercer). As far as pure damage goes, Chuck is quite limited in comparison to a Sharpshooter or Great Weapon Expert. The combined +4 damage per attack from the Thrown Weapon Fighting and Dueling fighting styles is nothing to sneeze at, but it's paltry compared to the +10 that can be achieved by other attacks. Chuck doesn't mind, though. What's great about him is the number of interesting and meaningful choices he has in combat. Chuck can combine different weapon effects with different maneuvers in myriad permutations, allowing him to react to different situations and developments in interesting ways.

Chuck's could have done some things differently. He could have taken Two-Weapon Fighting instead of Dueling and ignored Quick Toss for another maneuver. There are a lot of Battle Master maneuvers that would be interesting to him -- most notably, he didn't take Precision Attack, which would have been quite useful, and Maneuvering Attack would give him even more options to control the battlefield. He also could have taken the Superior Technique Fighting Style instead of Dueling, sacrificing two damage for an additional Superiority Die and one additional maneuver. Later, as he gained more Battle Master options naturally, he could have used Martial Versatility to swap the style out for Dueling (or Two-Weapon Fighting). He also could have taken Polearm Master instead of Piercer -- this would necessitate grabbing the +1 strength elsewhere, but would grant him more versatility when stepping into melee (it would allow him to forego Brace for Riposte, as well). The bonus attack with the butt of the spear does bludgeoning damage, meaning it would trigger Crusher.

Chuck's got a bright future, too. Most of the options in the previous paragraph could be taken in his future. As his number of attacks increases to three at level 11, he'll probably worry less about that off-hand attack with two-weapon fighting and might start wielding a shield, at which point Shield Master might be an interesting option (although that can spread Chuck's bonus action pretty thin). Martial Adept is an obvious feat option for him. He can even consider Tavern Brawler, in case he wants to add his proficiency bonus when he scoops up his halfling buddy and two-hand tosses him at the enemy as an improvised weapon.

Finally, it's obvious that Chuck's varied options every round make him a poor choice for any newer player, or anyone known to suffer from analysis paralysis when there are too many decisions. However, Chuck's younger brother is a Champion who also throws things and takes the Slasher, Piercer and Crusher feats. Being a Champion means he naturally has access to two fighting styles and could reasonably take three. His larger critical range will mean getting to use the feats' crit-triggered abilities more often. This approach makes the normally-too-bland Champion archetype into one that can be interesting to play, as you still get to carry a large repertoire of thrown weapons and decide which one to use. The gradual way in which you'd earn these feats makes Chuck's younger brother into a solid option for newer players.

Although be warned if you go with Chuck's younger brother. Chuck says he's a bit of a tosser.

SuseyWalenstein
2020-12-31, 11:55 AM
The build gave me a chuckle.

Looks like carrying capacity would be the uphill battle to ensure you had enough weapons to throw; consider that Chuck could always grab an improvised weapon (like a rock, stein, bottle, etc) and still be throw effective.

Elastoid
2020-12-31, 02:39 PM
With 20 strength, you've got a carrying capacity of 300 pounds. Your carrying capacity is your strength times 15. Even with the encumbrance variant rule, you can carry 100 pounds without reduced speed.

This is really helpful, as Chuck is carrying 34 pounds of throwing weapons (6 light hammers, 6 hand axes, 5 javelins). Quiver of Elhonna is at the top of his wishlist.

Kane0
2020-12-31, 04:21 PM
Assuming a houserule that thrown weapons could be drawn freely like ammunition, what would change about Chuck?

Valmark
2020-12-31, 04:36 PM
Assuming a houserule that thrown weapons could be drawn freely like ammunition, what would change about Chuck?

This isn't an house rule, this is the Thrown Weapon Fighting Style (which Chuck already has).

Kane0
2020-12-31, 05:15 PM
Which could free up the style or allow a different class that didn’t get it.

Elastoid
2020-12-31, 05:17 PM
Assuming a houserule that thrown weapons could be drawn freely like ammunition, what would change about Chuck?

I'm going to assume you know that Tasha's includes a fighting style that allows you to draw a thrown weapon as part of an attack with one (making it possible to throw as many as you have attacks), and that your question could be rephrased, "What would you do differently if you didn't need to take the Thrown Weapon Fighting fighting style on page 42 of Tasha's Cauldron of Everything?"

Honestly, I'm not sure. That +2 damage would surely still be useful, but as Chuck hit level 11 and started attacking more often, there's a good chance he'd gravitate back to Superior Technique for the extra superiority die. Reason being, he's not about damage, he's built for control of the battlefield. It'd depend on how he plays at the later levels. Fighters, even when not optimized for damage, do a crap ton of damage just because of their many attacks, but running out of superiority dice sucks.

Ir0ns0ul
2020-12-31, 07:22 PM
I loved the concept and the rational behind each feat/maneuver. I really liked the brutal elegance to not rely on magic or Hexblade multiclass.

In the spirit of soft homebrews, would be too much a little bit of Barbarian being able to add the +2 damage from Rage and enabling Reckless Attack on ranged thrown attacks?

Perhaps some Rogue for lovely Cunning Action and allow SA to proc on thrown-not-finesse weapons?

Elastoid
2021-01-01, 03:47 AM
I loved the concept and the rational behind each feat/maneuver. I really liked the brutal elegance to not rely on magic or Hexblade multiclass.

In the spirit of soft homebrews, would be too much a little bit of Barbarian being able to add the +2 damage from Rage and enabling Reckless Attack on ranged thrown attacks?

Perhaps some Rogue for lovely Cunning Action and allow SA to proc on thrown-not-finesse weapons?

Dude, it's DnD. Do what makes you happy. Chuck's only at 8th level so there's plenty more to do, and what he's done so far isn't written in stone. I just wanted to share a concept that I don't think is being discussed.

Xoronis
2021-01-02, 10:14 PM
I've had thoughts of making a thrown weapon character, and while I was leaning towards the Sharpshooter Dart, I think you've sold me on deviating from it. This seems like a pretty fun build, and it comes online pretty early compared to other ideas I've had in general

LordShade
2021-01-03, 12:56 AM
I love this post and idea.

Contrast
2021-01-03, 02:56 AM
With 20 strength, you've got a carrying capacity of 300 pounds. Your carrying capacity is your strength times 15. Even with the encumbrance variant rule, you can carry 100 pounds without reduced speed.

This is really helpful, as Chuck is carrying 34 pounds of throwing weapons (6 light hammers, 6 hand axes, 5 javelins). Quiver of Elhonna is at the top of his wishlist.

I mean at level 11, assuming you action surge, thats only enough for 4 and a bit rounds of combat (less if you're making use of two weapon fighting) which in my experience will usually be fine...but far from always. Plus sometimes you'll be in a situation where ammo isn't recoverable so you really want to be carrying ample spares.

Regardless, in addition you have to convince your DM you're walking around with all these weapons hanging off you in a fashion such that they're easily accessible without it otherwise inconveniencing you.


Chuck likes that Quick Toss gives him a free attack with his bonus action, but he doesn't like that it requires a Superiority Die that could otherwise be used for a maneuver, and that the Quick Toss attack can't be paired with another maneuver. Often, instead, he uses two-weapon fighting. Here is how he does this: he begins the round with a weapon in his main hand, such as a spear. He throws that spear, so his hands are now empty. He uses his interaction to draw a weapon in his off-hand (likely a hand axe or a light hammer). He then makes another main-hand attack (Thrown Weapon Fighting allows him to draw a weapon in his main hand as part of the attack). The main-hand attack is made with a weapon in the off-hand, so it does not benefit from the Dueling fighting style, but it allows him to use a bonus action to throw his off-hand weapon (which would gain the benefit of the Dueling fighting style). In doing this, he sacrifices some damage (off-hand doesn't get strength modifier, main hand doesn't get Dueling) but preserves a superiority die and allows himself to use a maneuver on his off-hand attack if he wishes. Doing this does leave him without a weapon in hand until his next turn, however -- he would be unable to use Brace (Brace requires that they enter the range of a melee weapon "you're wielding." You could, however, make an opportunity attack if they leave your range, drawing the weapon as part of the attack -- so long as the weapon has the thrown property.).

For reference the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) contains the following guidance:


Can I make an attack with one weapon, then draw a second weapon with my other hand and qualify to use two weapon fighting?
To use the two-weapon fighting bonus action (PH, 195), you must have both weapons in hand when you make the first attack. If you’re instead fighting with two or more weapons as part of the Extra Attack feature, the rule for the two-weapon fighting bonus action doesn’t apply. The rule for that bonus action applies only to itself, not to any other use of two or more weapons in the game.


While the idea is fun, you haven't quite convinced me that this justifies taking Crusher and Piercer and Slasher. Piercer seems the easiest to drop in terms of only adding damage (which clearly isn't the focus of the build) but thats a pity given you'll almost certainly fall back on relying on darts given their low carry weight and more feasible size for carrying/accessibility purposes. I also worry you're overestimating how often the bonuses from Slasher and Crusher will be relevant. I think that many turns you'll be inflicting penalities on foes which are mostly meaningless and will just add to the time combat takes to work through without meaningfully impacting on the outcome. I'm playing a fighter with Crusher at the moment and most turns I choose to forgo moving anyone because doing so doesn't usefully achieve anything.

Elastoid
2021-01-03, 05:36 PM
I mean at level 11, assuming you action surge, thats only enough for 4 and a bit rounds of combat (less if you're making use of two weapon fighting) which in my experience will usually be fine...but far from always. Plus sometimes you'll be in a situation where ammo isn't recoverable so you really want to be carrying ample spares.

Once you're getting to higher levels, you'll have access to a bag of holding. To withdraw something from the bag is an action, so it'd be more used for replenishing his supply between combats than for use during combat, but it'll do the trick.

But logistically, you're looking at throwing 2-3 weapons (assuming you throw every time) per round, not counting action surge which happens just the once. Most of the time you're going to be fine, even if you're always throwing. A lot of the time, though, you'll trip someone with Trip Attack, and then wind up attacking them in melee with advantage, because prone targets are hard to hit with ranged attacks.


Regardless, in addition you have to convince your DM you're walking around with all these weapons hanging off you in a fashion such that they're easily accessible without it otherwise inconveniencing you.

This was actually pretty fun. I took leatherworkers' tools and had Chuck design a bandolier for his hammers, and a contraption for his back that stored his axes. It's not a perfect solution but enough attention was paid to the problem that we accepted Chuck could make it work.




For reference the Sage Advice Compendium (https://media.wizards.com/2020/dnd/downloads/SA-Compendium.pdf) contains the following guidance:



Huh. Well, at two attacks (level 8) that essentially just means he has to draw his off-hand weapon earlier, losing 2 damage from the Dueling feat for the first attack. Sucks, but all told, still a workable solution. I'm going to have to keep track of my attacks a bit better, and see if Two Weapon Fighting would be a better option than Dueling. There's a good chance that it would early, at 1 and 2 attacks, while later at 3 and 4 attacks, it could be swapped.



While the idea is fun, you haven't quite convinced me that this justifies taking Crusher and Piercer and Slasher. Piercer seems the easiest to drop in terms of only adding damage (which clearly isn't the focus of the build) but thats a pity given you'll almost certainly fall back on relying on darts given their low carry weight and more feasible size for carrying/accessibility purposes. I also worry you're overestimating how often the bonuses from Slasher and Crusher will be relevant. I think that many turns you'll be inflicting penalities on foes which are mostly meaningless and will just add to the time combat takes to work through without meaningfully impacting on the outcome. I'm playing a fighter with Crusher at the moment and most turns I choose to forgo moving anyone because doing so doesn't usefully achieve anything.

What I like about taking all three of these feats is that when the feats came out, I and most other people read them to mean "specialize." This build allows you to use them to do the opposite -- you can diversify. Because of the way Thrown Weapon Fighting lets you draw a different weapon each attack, you can feasibly attack with three different weapons, and that kind of creativity is just fun for me. It helps that Fighters get so many ASIs and that all three feats allow you to increase your Strength. If these feats were much stronger but didn't give you the half ASI, the build wouldn't be possible.

Piercer's an easy one to drop as it's not about control, but considering how often I wind up using javelins (for the 30 range), and how useful it is when using a spear in melee (versatile 1d8), I kept it. Piercer is not relevant with darts, though -- I mean, they're d4s. You're going to get the best-case for Piercer (a d1 that you reroll for a d4) only one out of sixteen times, so I don't really worry about that. Even the critical benefit (rolling an extra d4) isn't particularly impressive. But I'm pretty much never going to fall back to darts. A bag of holding can hold an entire armory of thrown weapons, allowing Chuck to replenish his supply between combats so he's always got his preferred setup. The Quiver of Elhonna only weighs two pounds, and can hold eighteen javelins and six spears. And of course, Tasha's introduces the Artificer class, which can create returning weapons. There are a lot of ways to make this work without worrying too much about having the weapons.

As for how often these bonuses will become relevant... it depends on a lot of factors. Chuck has a lot of squishy teammates and always has a lot to do to defend them. For example, a thrown axe can use Crusher to move an enemy away from an ally so they don't need to take the Disengage action. Or, depending on positioning, Crusher can be combined with Menacing Attack, so the enemy is moved 5ft away but can't close that distance because he's frightened of Chuck. Slasher, meanwhile, combined with Pushing Attack can cost the enemy 25 feet of movement. Throwing a handaxe at an enemy 20 feet away can prevent him from closing the distance with you on his next turn, even with a movement of 40 feet. Again, it depends on the battlefield -- if there's a lot of difficult terrain, or ledges to fall from, or other interesting elements you can control, then it can be useful. Otherwise, not so much. Chuck works well with party members who take area-controlling spells like Web, Flaming Sphere or Wall of Fire. If no one's using that kind of thing, and everyone's approach is just "Do enough damage to kill them before they do enough damage to kill us," then Chuck will be going against the grain and will suffer because of it.

Contrast
2021-01-03, 09:11 PM
I think we may be operating under different assumptions to be fair. For some andecdotal evidence D&D Beyond tells me I've played around 20 characters (13 of which are currently or were between levels 5 and 13). Of those, a grand total of 2 played in a party that had access to a Bag of Holding (and of those 2, one was me playing an artificer). I've never seen a Quiver of Ehlonna once in any game I've played in.

For obvious reasons I would never plan to make a character with an intention of relying on access to a Bag of Holding.


As for how often these bonuses will become relevant... it depends on a lot of factors.

Re using Crusher to move an enemy away so an ally can escape without an opportunity attack. So firstly thats the situation (not uncommon, but a caveat still). They also need to only be fighting one enemy and that enemy to not have any sort of reach (again, not huge caveats but more to add to the list). Then we need our initiative to sit between that enemies and our allies which depends on relative modifiers but lets call it a 50/50. How many combats is this situation arising in at this point? Plus you've only got 6 hammers. Bad luck if you happen to have thrown them all already that combat.

You can totally get good use out of combining Slasher with some maneuvers and Crusher with others but you're investing a lot of resources to be able to do everything with a potentially pretty marginal gain as I see it. If I'm taking a feat that only does something in combat I was to be getting good use out of it every/almost every combat to justify it and you're making that decision 3 times on mutually exclusive feats. As you say, being half feats is the saving grace though.

Mostly I just worry that this build sounds very cool but in practice is going to have a lot of turns where you look at all your multitude of options and end up going 'Hmm...guess I threw a couple of javelins for 1d6 a pop'.

Elastoid
2021-01-04, 06:59 AM
I think we may be operating under different assumptions to be fair. For some andecdotal evidence D&D Beyond tells me I've played around 20 characters (13 of which are currently or were between levels 5 and 13). Of those, a grand total of 2 played in a party that had access to a Bag of Holding (and of those 2, one was me playing an artificer). I've never seen a Quiver of Ehlonna once in any game I've played in.

For obvious reasons I would never plan to make a character with an intention of relying on access to a Bag of Holding.

Yeah, your experience has been very different from mine. It depends on a lot of things -- DM, luck, tier of play -- but both Bag of Holding and Quiver of Elhonna are "Uncommon" items and will often show up in game.

Any campaign that allows trading of magic items, a Bag of Holding or Quiver of Elhonna could be available level 1 for no more than 500 gold (again, depending on the DM). Any treasure hoard roll of challenge level 0-16 has a chance of finding a Bag of Holding. Playing in Adventurer's League, where treasure isn't randomized, Bag of Holding is even more readily available, as an "evergreen" item that can always be purchased.


Re using Crusher to move an enemy away so an ally can escape without an opportunity attack. So firstly thats the situation (not uncommon, but a caveat still). They also need to only be fighting one enemy and that enemy to not have any sort of reach (again, not huge caveats but more to add to the list). Then we need our initiative to sit between that enemies and our allies which depends on relative modifiers but lets call it a 50/50. How many combats is this situation arising in at this point? Plus you've only got 6 hammers. Bad luck if you happen to have thrown them all already that combat.

You can totally get good use out of combining Slasher with some maneuvers and Crusher with others but you're investing a lot of resources to be able to do everything with a potentially pretty marginal gain as I see it. If I'm taking a feat that only does something in combat I was to be getting good use out of it every/almost every combat to justify it and you're making that decision 3 times on mutually exclusive feats. As you say, being half feats is the saving grace though.

Mostly I just worry that this build sounds very cool but in practice is going to have a lot of turns where you look at all your multitude of options and end up going 'Hmm...guess I threw a couple of javelins for 1d6 a pop'.

Yeah, a Fighter gets so many extra ASIs that those resources invested don't have a massive opportunity cost. This build scales off of the creativity of the player who uses it -- if the majority of the time, you find yourself just chucking javelins, then you're not getting the most out of this build, whether it's because of the campaign setting, the party you're playing with, or your own creativity in combat. That said, your vanilla "go-to" is rarely going to be javelins -- your vanilla "go-to" is to use Trip Attack to try to knock someone down so you can close and get advantage with your attacks in melee. If there's legit nothing else to do, you can often knock something down and then just go to town on it with your action surge.

But yeah, a good test for this build is just how much use you'd get out of another Battle Master in the same situation. If you find yourself mostly using maneuvers for the extra die of damage, and not for their effects, then Chuck would probably be a downgrade. If you constantly find interesting uses of your maneuvers, Chuck doubles down on that.