Splitting Conjuration and Necromancy between Monk and Barbarian

[Luccan]

I'm in the extremely early stages of creating subclasses for Monk and Barbarian that are similar to the Eldritch Knight and Arcana Trickster. In doing so, I'll be splitting the remaining spell schools between them (similarly how their inspirations have access primarily to two spell schools). I believe that Divination would most naturally go to Monk, while using arcane magic for more immediate, physical advantage goes to Barbarian, making Transmutation one of their schools.

As such, I'm left deciding what to do with Necromancy and Conjuration. Since these are intended to be similar to the EK and AT, I'm thinking they'll primarily draw on the Wizard list.

If it helps, these two subclasses tie into a setting where Wizards are no longer a thing, their art having been largely lost long ago. These two subclasses originally come from the remainders of the high elf empire that had the most learned and powerful Wizards. One is a group of now largely apolitical monks who attempt to preserve arcane knowledge so it's never lost again, the others are from a land of elven berserkers no one wants to mess with.

[Sigreid]

I would consider having the monk draw from the wizard list. Especially since senior monks in popular culture are often portrayed as scholars and artists. I personally would go sorcerer or bard list for barbarian seeing it as either tapping into their primal self for sorcerer or tapping into more shamanic types of power for barbarian.

It's just my thoughts but I see the monk being all about study and practice and the barbarian being all about building a primal connection to the world around them. One studies their power, one lives it.

[loki_ragnarock]

Give necromancy to the monks: in the quest for enlightenment, being able to speak with the dead would be a mighty boon. A scholarly connection to the past. A reason for temples venerating the ancestors. A secluded monastery where the old masters can be consulted for their wisdom in the ossuary.

Barbarians should get conjuration; one of the coolest magic items they can get is a Horn of Valhalla, so it's already pretty on theme.

EDIT:
Uh... it turns out that speak with dead isn't on the wizard spell list, so just toss those ideas out the window.

Further EDIT:
But they do get bestow curse, so I guess you could theme the monks like Sidereal exalted, instead; understanding and messing with fate in equal measure.

Further, further edit:
Also monks get enough mobility focused powers that they don't need the like of misty step. Thunderstep is metal AF and totally barbarianish, Sword Burst is more Barbarian themed. Fog Cloud, boom, then suddenly there's a bunch of angry elves wrecking your everything, coming and leaving in the mists with otherworldly speed, every part of your encampment attacked simultaneously.


So, after coming back to it; necromancy for monks. Conjuration for Barbarians.

[JellyPooga]

Personally, I like the idea of Voodoo Barbarians with a heavy culture of ancestor worship/veneration such that they keep nanna around after she passes to tidy the house and gramps to till the fields...sooo, give Necromancy to the Barbarians.

[YoungestGruff]

How do you plan on getting around Barbarians not being able to cast while raging? I know that the Bloodrager in Pathfinder has a mechanic where at higher levels you can actually cast a spell while you enter a Rage, but it might be harder to balance.

That said, Necromancy works for Barbarians both in a badass Voodoo-barian and in the need to take damage to stay in the Rage.

[Segev]

Conjuration is where the teleporting and telekinesis stuff is. I’d give it to the monks. I’ll second the bones-and-curse ancestor worshipping barbarians. Even animate dead is bringing back fallen warriors to keep up the fight (or forcing fallen enemies or cowards to do the lowly work of tilling fields).

[SpanielBear]

The Ancestral Guardian is pretty much already a necromancer barbarian, to be fair. Not saying there’s not more space in the concept, just something to keep in mind to give the subclass a distinct conceptual space.

[MrStabby]

The Ancestral Guardian is pretty much already a necromancer barbarian, to be fair. Not saying there’s not more space in the concept, just something to keep in mind to give the subclass a distinct conceptual space.

Although long death monk is arguably a necromancer monk as well.

I would see transmutation as being a bit monkish - mind over matter/magic over form.

Downside of necromancy is its crap. Or all the low level stuff is. The better spells at low levels tend to do damage and will not scale AT All WELL on a martial class. And the fun necromancy spells that are worth taking wont come till really late game.

[JellyPooga]

Downside of necromancy is its crap. Or all the low level stuff is. The better spells at low levels tend to do damage and will not scale AT All WELL on a martial class. And the fun necromancy spells that are worth taking wont come till really late game.

Woah, woah, woah... (Wizard) Necromancy could be great on a Barbarian.

- Ray of Sickness is a solid 1st level damage/debuff for low levels; perfect as an opener before raging.
- False Life is literally taking a nip of dutch courage (check those Material components; very Barbarian-esque!) and a solid use of a 1st level slot for a minor, concentration null buff, even at higher levels.
- Gentle Repose might not be up to snuff when you're level 3, but let's not forget that this will be on an EK/AT progression; our Barbarian isn't getting it until he's at least level 7...which isn't too far off when the party Cleric gets access to Raise Dead. I'm only seeing party synergy. Granted, it's a ritual, so probably not best used on a "Spells Known" caster, but it's not totally on the outside of usefulness, particularly if Wizards aren't available/in the party.
- Blindness/Deafness isn't usually hailed as being all that great, until you consider that once again, it doesn't use Concentration. Sure, it's a Con Save which is commonly hard to get to stick, but like RoS if it does stick, it's a solid buff you can use as an opener before going to town with Rage.
- Ray of Enfeeblement. Ok. I'll admit this is pretty tame. But against a single opponent that uses Strength and fails it's save(s), it's kind of like having another use of Rage. At least as far as damage resistance goes. (Ok, ok...I'm really stretching for this one).

I can't say anything about non-PHB Necromancy, but even on a limited budget of known spells, I'd be happy to take most of these alongside some Transmutations (or Divinations) as well as a couple of "free" picks (like EK/AT does).

[Luccan]

Thanks for all the responses. It's a difficult question and I find myself still unsure, but I've got a lot more to consider in terms of why I might give one or the other to each subclass.

[Kane0]

In my head Conjuration and Divination are pretty closely linked, as are Necromancy and Transmutation, so that’s how i’d pair then up.