Harry Potter Wizards VS. Whitewolf Vampires

[landadmiral]

While reading the thread on the benefits wizards have over muggles (living in society secretly, element of surprise, powerful magics uncomprehendable to muggles, etc) I was thinking that it sounds just like Vampires of Whitewolf (or vampires of the underdark movies).

Both the vampires and wizards have element of surprise, have powerful magics, are hidden in society, powerful underground network, etc.

Weaknesses:
Vampires - Obviously the sun
Wizards - Very limited abilities w/out the wand

Who would win in the alleys of London?

[GolemsVoice]

The Vampires win, hands down. They just take their business serious, Vampire is serious business. Hogwarts wizards just lack the firepower to stand a chance against the kindred. In Vampire, the Children of Kain do have at least some sort of resistance to magic, though you could argue if this also counts for the wizard's spells. Second, the friends of the magic wand (tm) just do not have much spells to actually kill your target (again, in this case). Especially fire spells would come in handy, but I don't think there are any lethal spells mentioned in Harry Potter (though I am no expert, stopped reading after volume 4). On the other hand, Vampire's "magic" and disciplines are clearly designed to strenghten their user and to kill or cripple his opponents (make his heart explode, weeeeh!). But you could argue that, if the wizards where smart, they could use the internal struggles of the kindred to divide them and bring them down in a civil war.
But I would rather say, WW's Vampires.

[Indon]

To quote the gaming forum of this site:

Wizards Win.

My reasoning is as such:

Both HP Wizards and World of Darkness Vampires are threatened by losing their secrecy. But, if the HP Wizards lose their secrecy they would still have a chance; the vamps would not.

[lipe44]

To quote the gaming forum of this site:

Wizards Win.

My reasoning is as such:

Both HP Wizards and World of Darkness Vampires are threatened by losing their secrecy. But, if the HP Wizards lose their secrecy they would still have a chance; the vamps would not.

So you compare two unrelated examples and say one would win?

Dont get me wrong i believe wizards would win because of this:

Werewolf: You shall die Wizard!
Wizard: *Uses some light spell*
Werewolf: Bastar...

Dead...

[landadmiral]

My 2cp are thrown in with the blud suckers.
vampires aren't effected by light per say but sunlight. so, unless there were some kind of sunlight spell, it would be an equal battle.
...till a hand-full of hp wizards get turned. Then you've a problem on your hands. hp wizards that have become vampires would tip the scales in favor of vampires.
as far as secrecy is concerned, i don't really see it as a problem. the sabbat has been all about open rule and hasn't screwed up the secrecy thing.

[Gundato]

Uhm, I think both would be just as screwed by a mass unveiling. Humans don't like that which they don't understand, and I am pretty sure magic (both blood and mispronounced latin) counts as that.

First and foremost, do we count the archetypal personaliteis as part of their abilities?

If so, the Vamps are all a bunch of goth kids who lament the loss of their humanity and make the average Slaanesh worshiper look like a prude. Of course, then the power of the wizards is inversely proportional to their age, and little kids tend to not go for the kill shot during the opening salvo.
If not, we assume both parties are just as bloodthirsty.

So then, we must next consider weaknesses:
A vamp needs blood. But, a Vamp tends to get very feral when they are lacking blood or in pain, so that might not be a weakness.
Do Harry Potter wizards have a weakness, other than a lack of wands? I am not the biggest fan, but do they even really have a cool-down time between spells? Also, one could argue that their spells generally seem more oriented towards trickery and transmutation, rather than pure offense.

Next, strengths:
Pretty much every vamp ability is oriented towards stealth, manipulation, or excessive amounts of damage. Plus, even the weakest vamp is a pretty formidable fighter compared to the average human.
Again, do HP Wizards have any cooldown times? If not, that is a pretty damn big advantage.


Now, assuming that all spells work against the opponent (with maybe the equivalent of a Will save for transmutation or mind-altering spells), I am still inclined to give the Vamp the advantage, if only for the fact that they have considerably faster reflexes and could rip the voice box out of a wizard before he finishes his incantation (or just gank the wand). After that, we get an unspeakably violent vivisection.

[Rutee]

oWoD Vamps lose because they're too busy whining about how cursed they are.

nWoD Vamps dust Harry Potter and co so fast it's not funny. Not as quickly as nWoD Mages embarrass them utterly, but pretty darn quick.

HP Wizards just do not have the training or knowledge necessary to fight those particular vamps.

Edit:
Wait, wait, why are people going on and on about breaking The Masquerade? Even oWoD vamps, the whiny emo goth kids that they were, could quite handily war against each other and werewolves without breaking it..

[Tamburlaine]

WoD vampires win for several reasons:

1. they're better suited and more tactically inclined to the whole stealth around in dark alleyways thing, and as far as I'm aware, HP wizards don't have any major anti stealth spells (heck, turn the lights off and all they've got is their teeny wand flashlights

2. the vamps would still beat the wizards in a face to face fight due to them being quicker, stronger, and generally more skilled at combat. (one vamp with celerity 5 would be able to take down whole squads of wizards at a time)

3. vamps are way more organised than the wizards.

4. WoD vampires have already won, the fight took place years ago. They simply convinced an oWoD mage to lend them a hand, and she made the public at large believe that the HP wizards only existed in a certain popular series of children's books.:smallamused:

[landadmiral]

4. WoD vampires have already won, the fight took place years ago. They simply convinced an oWoD mage to lend them a hand, and she made the public at large believe that the HP wizards only existed in a certain popular series of children's books.

I got a kick out of that last part. I'm sure any fan of WoD mage would.

[....]

Celerity 5 vamp can dodge bullets. Normal teenage wizards can dodge the killing curse.

Fortitude 5 camp can soak sunlight for a little while. And the spells that wizards use to create light dosn't make sunlight. Only the most powerful WoD mages can call down sunlight from darkness.

A HP wizard might take out a neophyte or something, but any vampire older than fifty would rip their throats out and drink their blood infront of their kids.

I don't think the wizards can even hope to match the savagery of the vampires (who are probably the least savage of the WW guys, save mages). Only Voldemort seemed capable of approaching the stuff I could imagine WoD vamps doing, and the wizards are horrified of just ONE of him.

And don't even try to get me started on werewolves vs. wizards. Even vampires are scared of werewolves. The garou would see one of their packmates get hit with a killing curse and... well... it'd be squishy.

[Dhavaer]

1. they're better suited and more tactically inclined to the whole stealth around in dark alleyways thing, and as far as I'm aware, HP wizards don't have any major anti stealth spells (heck, turn the lights off and all they've got is their teeny wand flashlights

Homonum Revelio. Detects everyone in a pretty decent area, and works through walls.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Harry Potter Wizards can fly on broomsticks. This makes it harder for vampires to tear them apart.

I don't know enough about World of Darkness, but I'm guessing some vampires can fly. But basic level broomstick flying is easier than most spells, so their are probably more flying wizards than flying vampires.

Sure the vampires can kill flying wizards if they bring out guns, but if they do that they aren't taking advantage of their vampiric nature. If a vampire is killing wizards by doing something any human can do it isn't really a case of vamires vs wizards.

[Deadmeat.GW]

And stopped by random things as far as it goes in the books or else non of the kids would be able to get away with a tenth of what they did.

[Rutee]

4. WoD vampires have already won, the fight took place years ago. They simply convinced an oWoD mage to lend them a hand, and she made the public at large believe that the HP wizards only existed in a certain popular series of children's books.
Victory by Consensus Reality is totally cheating :P


Sure the vampires can kill flying wizards if they bring out guns, but if they do that they aren't taking advantage of their vampiric nature. If a vampire is killing wizards by doing something any human can do it isn't really a case of vamires vs wizards.
Er, what? Vamps do use mortal weapons, out of convenience. Who cares if they're mortal weapons?

Besides, going out in the open is a pretty fast way to die, against another group used to a masquerade.


Homonum Revelio. Detects everyone in a pretty decent area, and works through walls.
Using WoD rules for a moment (Not necessarily applicable), spells are resisted using the Supernatural Creature's particular baseline advancement marker (Gnosis for a Mage, for instance). Casting the spell doesn't necessarily mean it'll unveil the *vamp*.

...Also if there's a spell that auto-reveals everything, why in the name of pie did Tonks almost fail to be made an Auror due to a lack of stealth? That strikes me as a non-issue. If the spell has a limitted duration, it also seems like it's not an enormous worry, since it'd only be cast once the Wizards know there's a problem and are on their guards.. which is, quite frankly, a status I doubt they can maintain for every waking hour.

[Tamburlaine]

Hmmm...

The "Homonum Revelio" thing is a blow to their chances, but points 2 & 3 still stand in favour of vampires

[TheElfLord]

Homonum Revelio. Detects everyone in a pretty decent area, and works through walls.

If I remember correctly, and from the word Homonum, it detects humans. Now, while I supose one could make an argument for it detecting walking corpses, it would be hard.

Vampires aren't human anymore. They aren't even alive. Ergo, no killing curse.

Vampires aren't as arrogant as mages either. Vampires hid because they are scared of humans. Wizards hide to protect humans from Wizards. They have a massive superiority complex. Now most/all vampires think they are superior to mortals too, but they don't let it guide their actions in the same way.

While wizards have the ability to infultrate and control mortal organazations and governments, no one besides Voldomort seems to have done it. Vampires have had their fingers in every aspect of mortal politics since the first city. They have thousands of years of head start on the wizards.

And finally, the range is complelty different. Voldemort and Dumbledore aren't that much more powerful than a first year. They can perform more complecated spells, but they still function on a very small power range.

Vampires have a massive power range. The newest vampire is probably a match in non magical combat for most wizards and the power scale grows massivly as you find older vamps.

I don't think any wizard in the HP world could survive 3 nuclear blasts.

[Dhavaer]

While wizards have the ability to infultrate and control mortal organazations and governments, no one besides Voldomort seems to have done it.

The British Ministry of Magic has sufficient access to muggle governments to have a memory charm cast on the President of an unspecified country at their convenience.

[comicshorse]

Trouble with HP wizards is that the bad ones arearrogant idiots and the good ones far too nice.
Whereas vampires have picked the most cunning and vicious mortals and rthen sharpened them in constant conflict against other vampires.
Vampires rip through HP wizards while they're styill thinking about it.
or to ,use my favourite WoD quote. " Wizards, if they see me coming they're trouble otherwise its Mage brains on the wall."

[Rutee]

Well, Vamps are pretty underpowerred compared to WoD Mages, but they don't go into that in their book. It's not /their/ fault that Mage magic covers everything they can do and more :P

But in seriousness, I will point out that HP is a pretty underpowerred setting on the whole, so I don't know why people keep making versus threads involving it. I mean, don't get me wrong; The characters have a /great/ standard of living, really. Aside from ignorance on sciences, the HP folks seem to do quite well for themselves. It's just asking me whether a Robotech Valkyrie can pose a serious threat to the Space Runaway Ideon Both are cool/fun, but one of them breaks planets, the other shoots tons and tons of basically regular missiles.

[GolemsVoice]

Don't forget the Vampire's Antediluvians (sp?). They just lie about somewhere, and suddenly Ron or someone thinks it would be a fun idea to kill Harry Potter. The HP books already mention severl people that fall victim to some sort of mind control, so I see no reason why the subtle call of the first generations of Vamps shouldn't affect HP Wizards.