Low level PvP party optimisation

[Eldariel]

So I ran into a fun little post on Reddit about a PvP arena. The rules are basically:
- A party of one 3rd level and two 2nd level characters
- 300gp to equip the whole party
- The original rules also gave the party a free Kobold Fighter 1 retainer. Not sure what purpose this serves; I guess it adds up to a party of 4 and makes effects like Sleep slightly less efficient as there's one more guy digging the sleepers awake. Let's just keep it in. Replacing it with any 1st level character would just give a Peace Cleric to every party.
- The parties would level up later if they won/stayed alive. Okay, basically the important part is that it's not only about surviving but also the long game.
- No word on terrain, precast spells or such. Let's just say:
Spells and effects of 1 hour duration or higher can be active but shorter duration effects not.
Random terrain from a subterranean cave system to a forest to a town, but no NPCs or other creatures (perhaps a magically created terrain á la Mirage Arcana)
The parties start aware of one another within...say 100' range, but not necessarily within line of sight (depends on the terrain).
Short rest after every fight, long rest every 3 fights.



Now, of course, the fun part is optimising this slightly strange premise. Strange not only due to low level but also due to the fact that the characters are of different levels. This means at most one character with 2nd level spells or OTOH only one member of most subclasses (notably Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Bard). I personally proposed a 2x Moon Druid 2 + 1x Diviner 3 to use the Wizard spell list and the overwhelming numbers of Moon Druid 2, but I was left wondering about the numerous alternatives.

[Unoriginal]

So I ran into a fun little post on Reddit about a PvP arena. The rules are basically:
- A party of one 3rd level and two 2nd level characters
- 300gp to equip the whole party
- The original rules also gave the party a free Kobold Fighter 1 retainer. Not sure what purpose this serves; I guess it adds up to a party of 4 and makes effects like Sleep slightly less efficient as there's one more guy digging the sleepers awake. Let's just keep it in. Replacing it with any 1st level character would just give a Peace Cleric to every party.
- The parties would level up later if they won/stayed alive. Okay, basically the important part is that it's not only about surviving but also the long game.
- No word on terrain, precast spells or such. Let's just say:
Spells and effects of 1 hour duration or higher can be active but shorter duration effects not.
Random terrain from a subterranean cave system to a forest to a town, but no NPCs or other creatures (perhaps a magically created terrain á la Mirage Arcana)
The parties start aware of one another within...say 100' range, but not necessarily within line of sight (depends on the terrain).



Now, of course, the fun part is optimising this slightly strange premise. Strange not only due to low level but also due to the fact that the characters are of different levels. This means at most one character with 2nd level spells or OTOH only one member of most subclasses (notably Fighter, Barbarian, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Bard). I personally proposed a 2x Moon Druid 2 + 1x Diviner 3 to use the Wizard spell list and the overwhelming numbers of Moon Druid 2, but I was left wondering about the numerous alternatives.

Sorry, I don't understand the challenge.


Are those three characters fighting each other to the death? If not, who are they fighting? Another 3 PC team?

[Eldariel]

Sorry, I don't understand the challenge.


Are those three characters fighting each other to the death? If not, who are they fighting? Another 3 PC team?

PvP so groups made with the same rules duking it out with each other; presumably with long rest between rounds until only one group remains. Though of course it'd be interesting to test it PvE (how many hard-deadly challenges or alternatively how difficult a challenge could the party take) too.

[XmonkTad]

For low-level party vs party deathmatch PVP I can see moon druid being truly unstoppable. A bonus action to become a killing machine that you can shed as soon as it's inconvenient (and then do it again) is very hard to beat. I can't think of a level 2 character that can stand up to the might of a brown bear on stats alone, so at least 1 in the party is a good choice. And level 2 is a great breakpoint for them.

I would note that having a wizard 3 is also pretty great, and as neat as diviner is, consider war wizard. The extra initiative, arcane deflection, they have the features to tank and even end a fight with the right spell (looking at you suggestion!) so why not go first?

Other classes to consider:
A second level artificer can infuse 2 items. A mind sharpener can work wonders for a caster who really desperately needs concentration and might be taking a lot of damage. Enhanced weapon/enhanced arcane focus are also great for giving to allies.
A vhuman (or custom lineage) barbarian 2 can use reckless attack to make a GWM -5/+10 attack land. At level 2/3, that is probably most, if not all, of a foe's HP. Unless they have a sponge like a moon druid, this is a very reliable source of good damage.
Death and War clerics can be deadly at level 2. Death clerics can twin toll the dead/chill touch for free, as long as their opponents are close together. War clerics can get an extra attack at level 2. Still not moon druid numbers.
A clockwork sorcerer can eliminate 2 advantage/disadvantage rolls, which can eat up someones luck or reckless attack or something. A wild magic sorcerer, can fireball themselves and their whole team, leaving only pure moon druid goodness remaining.

Possible tactics:
-Walk up and hit 'em with the druid. There aren't a lot of counters to moon druid in a numbers fight, so make it a numbers fight.
-Hide and lay an ambush.
-Social deception? If the party separates then a disguised rogue or warlock might be able to deceive someone into drinking poison or something like that. Bonus points if you do this with a conjuration wizard who conjures up Torpor Poison ("look at this obviously magical potion of power that I found, you should drink it so we can win!").

Race choice is likely to revolve around variant humans and custom lineages. But there are a few PVP standouts:
Aarakocra can fly. Keeps bears away if you can get some altitude.
Hobgoblins can make use of that retainer and get a saving throw bonus from it.
Orcs and Goblins can make good use of their bonus actions, though goblin BA is a real standout.

[Droppeddead]

Is the 300 gp in addition to starting equipment? If so, a third level battle smith alongside a eldritch blasting warlock and a tanking moon druid would be my go to team.

[Eldariel]

Is the 300 gp in addition to starting equipment? If so, a third level battle smith alongside a eldritch blasting warlock and a tanking moon druid would be my go to team.

Presumably, yes.

[JellyPooga]

For low-level party vs party deathmatch PVP I can see moon druid being truly unstoppable. A bonus action to become a killing machine that you can shed as soon as it's inconvenient (and then do it again) is very hard to beat. I can't think of a level 2 character that can stand up to the might of a brown bear on stats alone

V.Human Rogue with Mobile, a light crossbow and...eh, any Finesse weapon, let's say a dagger, will do.

A Moon Druid loses to kiting in this scenario, where the arena has at least one 100' separation available (if not diameter). In a smaller arena, the Druid might be able to close the Rogue down, but the established arena has opponents starting 100' apart. Moon Druid has to Action-Dash to close distance, while the Rogue can Bonus Action-Dash, effectively Disengage for free by attacking (hit or miss, doesn't matter) and when the Druid can't or won't close distance, the Rogue shoots. Assuming no other interference, the Rogue can do this all day until the Druid (eventually) runs out of HP or does something different (but still probably won't match the Rogues ability to kite, nor the Rogues DPR with Sneak Attack), because so long as he's a Bear, the Druid literally cannot attack the Rogue, let alone damage him.

[MaxWilson]

For low-level party vs party deathmatch PVP I can see moon druid being truly unstoppable. A bonus action to become a killing machine that you can shed as soon as it's inconvenient (and then do it again) is very hard to beat.

Refinement: make them all Goblin Moon Druids, and have the level 3 dude cast Pass Without Trace while the other two cast Fog Cloud. Now everybody is hidden with Stealth +12 after every turn except the first.

[stoutstien]

I'm thinking range and movement reduction/knock back will be the best all-rounder team.

2 lv- V human genie patron. Feat crusher. Invocations are lance and repelling. 15 ft knock back and reducing speed by 10 ft.

2lv - moon druid. Hp sponge and mount for..

Lv3- artillerist. Thp generator and spam ray of frost/ area CC for movement control. Pass off enhanced spell focus to the warlock and use the spell tattoo for whatever spell you think you need.

[XmonkTad]

V.Human Rogue with Mobile, a light crossbow and...eh, any Finesse weapon, let's say a dagger, will do.

A Moon Druid loses to kiting in this scenario,

That's a pretty good kiting build. Mobile + bonus action dash would do the trick and could prevent the moon druid from just turning the fight into a slugfest.

How would you build an all-kiting team though? Because having one rogue who can avoid the druid is good, but if it can maul someone else on the team then it's still a problem.

[JellyPooga]

That's a pretty good kiting build. Mobile + bonus action dash would do the trick and could prevent the moon druid from just turning the fight into a slugfest.

How would you build an all-kiting team though? Because having one rogue who can avoid the druid is good, but if it can maul someone else on the team then it's still a problem.

Setting aside the obvious answer of "It's all Rogues", I would still focus on ranged combat;
- A Ranger could perform well with Archery style and Ensnaring Strike vs. any squishies (which could potentially be a death sentence at this level, with its ongoing damage), followed by judicious use of the ol' "Run away!". Longstrider can stand-in to bump that speed up in lieu of Cunning Action. Again, a V.Human with Mobile could have a ground speed of 50ft with Longstrider active; a solid choice. Or with Archery style, Sharpshooter would be an option that could potentially shut down opponents in short order (particularly if there's terrain providing cover), bearing in mind the low HP totals that most will have.

A lvl.3 Ranger would be a potent player on this field with very little optimisation required. My first instinct might be to pair her with two lvl.2 Rogues as my team; Rogues can be scary good when working in tandem. The Dex focus of such a team means a good chance of winning initiative, too.

[Eldariel]

What about the other martial classes? Paladin 2 is a strong point for the class with good casting, Smites, fighting style and all the goodies. As strong as Moon Druid? Doubtful, but perhaps with some synergy benefits. Paladin 3 is comparatively less impressive but still something to note. Definitely, Pally 2 feels like a decent challenger, at 3d8+3 or something to the effect, and the option of casting Bless (though with great struggles at keeping it active).

Fighter 2 has Action Surge, Fighter 3 offers notably Battlemaster and Eldritch Knight (though Eldritch Knight 3 seems largely worse than Fighter 2/Wizard 1; fewer spells, fewer cantrips, limits on spells known, no ritual casting, etc.). Battlemaster is probably the most promising user for Sharpshooter especially if you can engineer a means to get advantage from teammate actions. Though CBE is also really alluring: which does more DPR depends entirely on the target. Battlemaster of course brings utility to the table for any martial allies.

Barbarian 3 is also notable in getting Totem Warrior for resistance to all damage or Berserker to bypass the need for CBE/PAM - GWM Vuman Berserker is the only class to get two attacks a turn at easy advantage with a +10/-5 feat on this level (and 1d12+15 damage is nothing to scoff at). Of course that's literally all it does; it's really vulnerable to fighting something unexpected (stealth enemies, casters targeting saves, huge sacks of HP, etc.). Still, 33,5 DPR vs. AC 11 is enough to squash most lower AC things like Moon Druids (admittedly it would fare incredibly poorly vs. a highly defensive build like any heavy armor type with defense style/forge bonus with potential for 20 AC at Splint + Shield + Defense). Of course, we can also play some comboes here; a group with such characters would of course benefit greatly of someone with Bless. The other issue would be actually getting to melee. Probably too many issues to really be worth it but it's still at least the martial DPR king.


Of course, the different terrains also mean that the party has to be prepared for many things. A dungeon terrain probably has very short distances and little room for kiting while a forest terrain is basically made for hide'n'jump Goblin Moon Druids. OTOH for actual fighting, there's a lot to be said for having that Wizard to cast Mage Armor on the Druids and to detect enemy positions with Bat + telepathy (no action needed if you don't need actual sight). Indeed, Vuman Diviner 3/Moon 2/Moon 2 all with Alert would be a rather amazing Fog Cloud user team. Fog Cloud from a Druid followed by shifting; as long as the party or an enemy is in a Fog Cloud, all targeted spells are unavailable and all enemies have disadvantage on all attacks. Moon Druid OTOH can turn into Giant Spider to have advantage from Blindsight. Of course, the Fog Cloud is only 40' radius so it's not impossible to get out of but that seems pretty strong under many circumstances and the Wizard can of course cast an 80' radius Cloud instead from a 2nd level slot (or Pyrotechnics for a 20' non-concentration bomb). This would make Diviner less desirable as without sight they can only affect self; Chronurgist would have Int to Initiative + rerolls instead which might be preferable (Gift of Alacrity does strain those 1st level spell slots though).


Of course, Devil's Sight Team Warlock seems pretty decent too. Warlock 3 can get Darkness and Warlock 2s have enough levels for Devil's Sight. This is of course trumped by Fog Cloud since whether or not they see in magical darkness is irrelevant in a heavily obscured area. Warlock 2 and Warlock 3 aren't entirely hopeless spell slot wise too; nowhere near Wizard 3, Cleric 3, Druid 3, Bard 3 or Sorcerer 3 (who all have 6 slots), but pretty close to anyone else.

Vision denial doesn't prevent Sleep Bombing and Sleep is pretty brutal for anyone not Moon Druid (level 2 d8 class has 8+5+2*3 = 19 HP so an easy pray for a single Sleep even from full HP and even Inspiring Leader would only add up to 24, which is still doable with 5d8 and easy with 7d8 from a second level slot): three casters have a pretty decent shot of straight-up Sleeping whole enemy teams not made up of Elves. Of course, since Disguise Self is a 1 hour spell, this opens up the option of an Elf caster Disguise Selfing and baiting Sleeps at the cost of a 1st level slot.


This is actually a pretty cool challenge: there's a lot of semi-viable seeming builds and this enables party strategy rather than character strategy. The OP from reddit suggested simple "**** with dice"-party with Chronurgist, Diviner 2/Peace Cleric 1 and Lore Bard (obviously Lore Bard requires 3 levels so you're better off with another Chronurgist) all with Lucky: there's something to be said for manipulating initiative so that you very probably go first and enemies fail their saves, while you make 'em.

[MaxWilson]

That's a pretty good kiting build. Mobile + bonus action dash would do the trick and could prevent the moon druid from just turning the fight into a slugfest.


Unless the Moon Druid team has Longstrider up or is also Mobile.

[JellyPooga]

Unless the Moon Druid team has Longstrider up or is also Mobile.

They still won't have Cunning Action.

[Eldariel]

They still won't have Cunning Action.

Moon Druids do have access to fairly high base movement speed though: Dire Wolf moves at 50' a round for example. Mobile Moon Druid with Longstrider would move at 70' a round; outside featureless plains, they'll probably be able to box in kiters pretty quick (and if something like a Dire Wolf gets an attack off, there's a very realistic chance that the enemy will not be able to escape anymore due to the trip effect). Goblin Moon Druids may be able to use their bonus action hide to avoid ranged attacks too, if the environment has cover/concealment available (or if they use Fog Cloud/similars). Kiting is a nice idea but terrain dependent. A specialised party, so to speak: strong in large open arenas but poor at cramped quarters with short distances and less efficient if there is lots of cover/concealment available.

So probably strong in like:
- Plains
- Ice fields
- Mountainous terrain

Weak in:
- Dungeon
- Forest (though Cunning Action Hide does work here: having a Druid 3 for Pass without Trace would be a godsent in this sense)
- City

[WaroftheCrans]

I'd try mountain dwarf chronurgist 3, 10 14 16 16 10 10, arakocra moon druid 2, 8 14 16 10 16 10, SS vhuman fighter 2 8 16 16 14 10 8.

Medium armor for the wizard and fighter, mage armor for the druid. Druid sets down fairy fire or another conc spell, flies above a target and drops on top of them in wildshape. Fighter provides ranged dmg and can switch to sword and board in melee. Wizard offers bc and can use first level slots to catapult alchemists fire.

Thinking of having fighter progress to ek if he survives. The retainer uses a crossbow and throws out caltrops.

I think this could work. Kiting would be weak against it in plains, as there is strong ranged dmg and the druid can divebomb. Barbarian would be weak, as the party has relatively high a.c. Other casters would have difficulty getting more than the retainer put to sleep, and wouldn't have los into fog cloud for spells. They would have difficulty with the druid in their faces, and the sharpshooter having advantage from ff and familiar. I think it's a balanced team which could go far.

[JellyPooga]

Kiting is a nice idea but terrain dependent. A specialised party, so to speak: strong in large open arenas but poor at cramped quarters with short distances and less efficient if there is lots of cover/concealment available.

Cover/concealment favours Rogues, as you mention and hiding is a viable alternative to moving as far as kiting is concerned. In close quarters, the higher speed still wins. Unless there are multiple doors, or similar terrain that requires interaction to pass, the arena is big enough for the higher speed party to get away.

In the "dungeon", "city" or other interior and/or urban arena, the Mobile Rogue is absolutely in their element. They can usefully/reliably lock doors and set traps to funnel their enemies where they want them to be, while being quick enough on their feet to avoid getting attacked. In the forest, their ability to both hide and ignore difficult terrain gives them the edge again.

On open plain, the Mobile Rogue has the speed advantage, but falls to long ranged snipers; and that's their weakest scenario and match-up.

For those advocating the "Lucky" approach, I think it's worth noting that winning Initiative is only likely to win the match when the teams start within LoS; in more complex arenas, these matches are likely to take several rounds to resolve. Note that a *lot* of spells have a meagre range of 60' or less, which means you aren't casting them on round 1 unless your speed is 40' or higher and further that being in range for those spells is being in danger.

It's also worth noting that Wizards and Sorcerers, particularly, in this scenario are *very* squishy. That D6 HD means having a mere 14hp, assuming you have a +2 Con mod. That's the minimum damage of a Sharpshooter with Dex:16. At this low level, every HP counts and I predict that playing a defensive game is going to pay in spades, to avoid the risk of chumping out early.

[someguy]

I think level 3 moon Druid is quite strong as many have said. Also remember they get spike growth so I’d be tempted to drop that to prevent kiting.

[Tanarii]

PvP so groups made with the same rules duking it out with each other; presumably with long rest between rounds until only one group remains. Itd be far more interesting if there was only a short rest between rounds, with a LR every 3 rounds

[JellyPooga]

Itd be far more interesting if there was only a short rest between rounds, with a LR every 3 rounds

It would certainly have a different dynamic. Warlock 3 might be very tempting under such circumstances; 2x2nd lvl spells every encounter could be a game changer.

[Eldariel]

Itd be far more interesting if there was only a short rest between rounds, with a LR every 3 rounds

Mh. You know what, we aren't restricted to the original challenge. We might as well do that. Though I still foresee SR-heavy teams having trouble winning the first time (since every LR team will of course rather burn all their resources than lose).


For those advocating the "Lucky" approach, I think it's worth noting that winning Initiative is only likely to win the match when the teams start within LoS; in more complex arenas, these matches are likely to take several rounds to resolve. Note that a *lot* of spells have a meagre range of 60' or less, which means you aren't casting them on round 1 unless your speed is 40' or higher and further that being in range for those spells is being in danger.

It's also worth noting that Wizards and Sorcerers, particularly, in this scenario are *very* squishy. That D6 HD means having a mere 14hp, assuming you have a +2 Con mod. That's the minimum damage of a Sharpshooter with Dex:16. At this low level, every HP counts and I predict that playing a defensive game is going to pay in spades, to avoid the risk of chumping out early.

Yeah, basically everyone but the level 3 guy and maybe Barbarians and Moon Druids are pretty squishy. Rogue would only have 17 HP so they'd probably die to a single SS hit too. Of course, the big thing with that is hitting: SS has maximum of +2 to hit though (Archery style, +3 Dex, +2 Proficiency, -5). Wiz/Sorc can have 16 Dex, Mage Armor and have access to Shield for AC 21 so even without rerolling from Lucky & al. the attacker needs to have a friendly Diviner with 19 or 20, or roll a natural 19-20 to hit. And they only have one attack unless they're specifically Berserker (when they lack Archery style so it's kinda wash). If enemy team has Diviners or Chronurgists or Lore Bards or the target has Lucky feat, hitting with SS is going to be nigh' impossible unless you build your whole team around e.g. getting Darkness + Devil's Sight and Bless on the Sharpshooter so they can attack at advantage with the +1d4 extra. Makes it sorta realistic to get the full attack off. Order Cleric could actually get you that second attack too off the Bless, which would be pretty good. I'm pretty sure there's a potent party in there somewhere.

The best spell for this fight is likely Sleep; which means Elves are highly favoured (maybe Wood Elf Rogue over Mobile Rogue? But it does miss out on the "get out of OAs for free"- and "ignore difficult terrain"-parts, which are likely to be quite relevant...). Sleep can hit a target up to 110' away and regardless of cover (other than total) or obscurement. Note that actually dropping someone cold is also not all that impressive; everyone has access to yoyo healing probably. The realistic victory condition is, far as I can tell, dropping the entire enemy team in rapid enough succession that they cannot yoyo one another or then victory through attrition.


If we open up UA sources (original did), there's of course the Twilight Druid Magic Missile: Harvester's Scythe + MM seems to combo. Pretty cruddy against Moon Druids and Shield-casters specifically but pretty brutal otherwise: from a 2nd level slot, an average of 36 damage and good for finishing off downed enemies too (the other option for combatting yoyoing: drop'n'kill).

EDIT: Squishiness is partially mitigated by temporary HP though. If the level 3 guy has 16 Cha and Inspiring Leader, that's +6 HP to everyone. Shepherd Druid would be +7. There are other options too of course (False Life/Armor of Agathys from a level 2 slot for 1d4+9 for instance).

EDIT#2: Battlemaster Sharpshooter IS pretty darn scary. Precision Attack to go with Order Cleric's Bless and some source of one-sided concealment for advantage (Minor Illusion?) Leads for two attacks at 2d20+1d8+1d4+2 for 1d8+13+potential maneuver each. If the Minor Illusionist is further a Diviner or a Chronurgist, the chances of hitting even against AC 21+ are quite realistic. Though you won't get 3 turns in a row and enemies will certainly do things that will interfere with this.

[JellyPooga]

I'm not sure Sleep is going to be all that great. For a start, it has to overcome the 12ish HP of the Kobold Cannon-fodder before it does anything more useful. The average on 5d8 is only 22.5, so it's only reliably knocking out a single target; likely only the cannon-fodder (which may also include Familiar/s). This is the main reason I'd choose Mobile Human over Wood Ef (which I did consider; longbow prof, darkvision and higher speed are all tempting draws that if this was a lvl.4 challenge I would definitely rate W.Elf higher than V.Human), as well as the benefits re: disengage and diff. terrain.

Also worth noting re: Sleep is that it costs a spell slot and can easily be negated if an ally can get to the target before your team can take advantage of the spell. When you've only got three-five slots...that's a big gamble on it being effective. A similar issue arises for Wizards using [/i]Shield[/i] for defence. Yeah, sure, for that turn they have AC:21, but it costs them the opportunity of using that slot on offence and it only lasts a single turn; yes, it'll keep you in the fight for one more round, but only that round. If you're going to field spellcasters, then the efficiency of your spell slots is a significant concern (even more so if we're only allowing a short rest between bouts).

Following up on that, the question of yo-yo healing is also one I think might fall in an unexpected direction; i.e. I don't think yo-yo healing is going to be that effective. If you've only got those three-to-five spell slots to last you three bouts, then you might be better served stabilising your downed ally and letting them spend HD to heal at the rest, than burning slots for it. You may find yourself winning the battle, but setting yourself up to lose the war.

I'm wondering if a Xbow Expert Ranger might be better than a Sharpshooter. The additional attack, combined with Hunters Mark, avoids the hit penalty and would also allow a Hunter Ranger to stack Colossus Slayer or perhaps Horde Breaker on top. Flipside is range, casting Hunters Mark and cover/concealment. Probably more reliable DPR though.

[Eldariel]

Following up on that, the question of yo-yo healing is also one I think might fall in an unexpected direction; i.e. I don't think yo-yo healing is going to be that effective. If you've only got those three-to-five spell slots to last you three bouts, then you might be better served stabilising your downed ally and letting them spend HD to heal at the rest, than burning slots for it. You may find yourself winning the battle, but setting yourself up to lose the war.

The thing here is though, if you lose the battle you'll never get to fight the war. You only get to round 2 if you win round 1, after all. So you'll do whatever wins and then worry about the second fight if you get there.

[Tanarii]

It would certainly have a different dynamic. Warlock 3 might be very tempting under such circumstances; 2x2nd lvl spells every encounter could be a game changer.Indeed. But it's no different than a party that happens to know their DM will have a Deadly fight 3 times per LR, with a SR between each.

Except that PVP vs a theoretically equal path will be insanely more difficult than Deadly of course, and of course a case of rocket tag (high damage low HP). Probably on the order of 4xDeadly difficulty IIRC. OTOH at level 1-3 that might not be the case. (Edit: confirmed, looks like at those levels most PCs are still no more than CR 2, so they should be within normal encounter guidelines of each other.)


Mh. You know what, we aren't restricted to the original challenge. We might as well do that. Though I still foresee SR-heavy teams having trouble winning the first time (since every LR team will of course rather burn all their resources than lose).Depends. Normally I'd say that PvP is such a case of rocket tag that LR classes other than Fighter-Sorcs Action Surging won't have time to dump their resources. And that's quite possible still true even with only 6 spells in play.

Eaither way, You almost certainly have to flat out Ban moon Druids given the level range desired. They're comparatively indestructible and will throw things heavily out of whack. (They do that in PvE too, as a DM you just have to ignore a party with a Moon Druid running through the game on easy mode for the early levels.)

[Eldariel]

Eaither way, You almost certainly have to flat out Ban moon Druids given the level range desired. They're comparatively indestructible and will throw things heavily out of whack. (They do that in PvE too, as a DM you just have to ignore a party with a Moon Druid running through the game on easy mode for the early levels.)

The ban might be good for iteratives, but first I'd like to see what kind of metagame develops around them. There are some builds with at least reasonable chances against them, after all, and Moon Druids aren't all that multiplicative (aside from the obvious Fog Cloud benefits) so I kinda wanna see if we'd get a "metabuild and anti-build" metagame first before applying bans. After all, even most broken options generally have some predators (though if they're broken due to specifically having an answer to everything, that's different). I can definitely see Moon Druids struggling vs. ranged opponents especially in terrains that allow for flight. Even the best ranged options for them are quite limited. I'm also interested in seeing if a synergy party can potentially get enough value out of their synergies to stand a chance against Moons (and also, what kinds of synergies Moons enable; Mage Armor is obvious as are high dice attacks to abuse restrained condition from certain grapplers and then Fog Cloud + Blindsight but ultimately what comes out on top I can't say).

I guess the only way to actually know would be to run this long enough for the top tier strategies to take shape and then run the bans and see what happens, since there are many intangibles in e.g. the terrain and the environment in general that greatly influence the outcome of the matches, not to mention simple luck.

[WaroftheCrans]

I fully understand and support this being your challenge now, but would it be possible to link to the original? We're getting things second hand here, some of the details are fuzzy.

In regards to Sr vs lr, it seemed to be implied in the op that this would be single elimination with leveling at some point. If it's single elimination, short rest based characters will have the disadvantage, as they will start with less resources and can't some back from death.
Likewise, if there is leveling at some point, it would need to be after each battle, as otherwise there would need to be a very large number of contestants. If you're leveling between battles, it would make sense that you get a long rest and resources back.

What are the thoughts on making it double elimination in a sr-lr-sr-lr pattern? You level on the long rest ones, there would be more action for everyone, and short rest vs long rest would be reasonably balanced.

[Eldariel]

I fully understand and support this being your challenge now, but would it be possible to link to the original? We're getting things second hand here, some of the details are fuzzy.

In regards to Sr vs lr, it seemed to be implied in the op that this would be single elimination with leveling at some point. If it's single elimination, short rest based characters will have the disadvantage, as they will start with less resources and can't some back from death.
Likewise, if there is leveling at some point, it would need to be after each battle, as otherwise there would need to be a very large number of contestants. If you're leveling between battles, it would make sense that you get a long rest and resources back.

What are the thoughts on making it double elimination in a sr-lr-sr-lr pattern? You level on the long rest ones, there would be more action for everyone, and short rest vs long rest would be reasonably balanced.

Sadly, it's fuzzy because this is all I have to work with (https://www.reddit.com/r/powergamermunchkin/comments/klgwph/breaking_a_low_level_pvp_arena_tournament/). And yeah, that might also be interesting, but obviously the logistics get more complex and match strategy changes from "Try to win" to "Try to win two in a row". It's kinda artificial, because normally death means death: if you die it doesn't matter how many resources you can recoup. Like Tanarii said, it's likely with how high offense, low defense PCs are that LR doesn't actually have that major an advantage over SR (aside from precast stuff like Mage Armor).

[Rara1212]

I like OP's 2x Moondruid + Diviner, tho I'd maybe take an Assasin Rogue instead of the Diviner(only if we can get surprise).
All 3 are either Vhuman or Custom Lineage. The Moondruids take Sentinel, and the Rogue takes Alert.

In combat the Rogue hopes to get surprise & go first, then shoots any ranged enemy or spellcaster they can see, hopefully killing them.
After that they'll kite around with hiding & dash.

The Moondruids can cast Longstrider on themselves, and/or wildshape into something with burrow speed. When they are underground they can hide, and slowly hunt down any kiting enemies. (They could technically be permanently underground by taking a shortrest in whildshape form and using the second use to extend the 1h duration)
If they cannot dig, they can wildshape into something with high speed. Move + Dash(and maybe a pounce or something from certain animal forms, can't remember all the abilities right now) will get them in range even of a tripple dashing Rogue, and sentinel can lock the enemy down.


If one cannot get surprise, a diviner might work better than the Rogue. Maybe Golbin, for hiding & dash, or custom linage for Alert.
Can cast Invisibility on themselves, and sneak up on the enemy(or cast that on one of the Druids, if need be)
Edit: Levitate + Divination = most melee enemies(like enemy moondruids get locked down hard)

[Ettina]

The ban might be good for iteratives, but first I'd like to see what kind of metagame develops around them. There are some builds with at least reasonable chances against them, after all, and Moon Druids aren't all that multiplicative (aside from the obvious Fog Cloud benefits) so I kinda wanna see if we'd get a "metabuild and anti-build" metagame first before applying bans. After all, even most broken options generally have some predators (though if they're broken due to specifically having an answer to everything, that's different). I can definitely see Moon Druids struggling vs. ranged opponents especially in terrains that allow for flight. Even the best ranged options for them are quite limited. I'm also interested in seeing if a synergy party can potentially get enough value out of their synergies to stand a chance against Moons (and also, what kinds of synergies Moons enable; Mage Armor is obvious as are high dice attacks to abuse restrained condition from certain grapplers and then Fog Cloud + Blindsight but ultimately what comes out on top I can't say).

I guess the only way to actually know would be to run this long enough for the top tier strategies to take shape and then run the bans and see what happens, since there are many intangibles in e.g. the terrain and the environment in general that greatly influence the outcome of the matches, not to mention simple luck.

What about sleep? Does casting sleep on a half or 1/3 health wildshape form seem like a good counterplay for moon druids?

[Droppeddead]

Kiting isn't really a problem against this build. A trio of variant humans with the following stats would kick all sorts of ass:
Artificer level 3, Battle Smith. Enhanced armor and Enchanced arcane focus (given to the Hexblade warlock). Spell Sniper for feat, choose Ray of Frost. Use that and Firebolt to pewpew stuff while your Steel Defender helps out in close combat.

Moon Druid level 2. Lucky feat (just because). Team up with the Steel Defender. Kill Stuff.

Hexblade Warlock level 2. Get Agonizing Blast and Grasp of Hadar and borrow the Artificer's Enhanced Arcande Focus and Blast everything in site. Get the Lucky feat or, if you really want to kill things at a distance, Spell Sniper.

Equipment doesn't really matter for anyone except to make sure that the Battle Smith and the Warlock has Scale Mail and Shields to give them a nice AC of 18 (19 for the smith). The druid will have a quarterstaff to use with Shillelagh when they run out of wild shapes.

What will basically happen is that the BS will cast Heroism on the Wild Shaped druid and then the Druid and the Steel Defender will bash things in close combat while the Artificer and the Warlock (using Hexblade's curse) blast everything else to pieces with their cantrips.

[WaroftheCrans]

What about sleep? Does casting sleep on a half or 1/3 health wildshape form seem like a good counterplay for moon druids?

Sleep targets the lowest health individual, and wildshape gives thp, it doesn't actually change current heath. A half hp form still has more total health than a regular druid. It will still target the kobold. Sleep just doesn't seem like the way to go: most parties will have the kobold and a familiar as the lowest hp which can easily just use their action to wake someone.

I think sleep should be prepared, but you likely won't use it. It's a good tool for the back pocket, not the opener.

I think hold person could hold a major role on the other hand.

[Eldariel]

Sleep targets the lowest health individual, and wildshape gives thp, it doesn't actually change current heath. A half hp form still has more total health than a regular druid. It will still target the kobold. Sleep just doesn't seem like the way to go: most parties will have the kobold and a familiar as the lowest hp which can easily just use their action to wake someone.

I think sleep should be prepared, but you likely won't use it. It's a good tool for the back pocket, not the opener.

I think hold person could hold a major role on the other hand.

Hold Person targets a very suboptimal save. Much better to hit targets with Phantasmal Force, Levitate, Web, Blindness or Earthen Grasp.

[JellyPooga]

Hold Person targets a very suboptimal save. Much better to hit targets with Phantasmal Force, Levitate, Web, Blindness or Earthen Grasp.

A lot of spells are going to fall into the problem of either being super-game-winning-awesome or complete-waste-of-time. Over the course of an adventure or campaign, yes, spells like Hold Person and Phantasmal Force pay dividends because on average they'll pay off more often than not, particularly when you're at a higher level and can spam them out, to an extent. In a knock-out arena, however, where even the slightest slip means that yooooou're outta there, the risk of the spell failing to achieve anything is a huge consideration. It's why the Moon Druid is such a good choice in this scenario and to a lesser extent ranged kite-builds; it gives you a huge safety margin that is hard to overcome. Glass-cannons, on the other hand...probably aren't going to win the tournament, so to speak; their safety margin is too low.

Spells like Web and Spike Growth, on the other hand are totally solid; the low/nil reliance on the RNG, area of effect and duration give you a solid return for the spell slot expended, giving you back some of that safety net.

[stoutstien]

grease could be a good anti moon druid spell. most of the forms at that CR have low to moderate dex so for everything but maybe the G spider it would have a good chance of slowing them down for a round. on that note what adventuring gear is up for grab? a fast hand thief might be able to pepper the playing field to a point where the opponents will fail something.

[mistajames]

I don't see how a party of 3 druids (2 Moon Druids + 1 Stars Druid, riding a CR4 Elephant mount) isn't taking this, especially after Tasha's. Moonbeam to focus down other moon druids. Enough damage and muscle via Summon Beasts/Shapechange to bulldoze through any PAM/GWM builds. All full casters, probably all Yuan-Ti Pureblood (for free Magic Resistance) or Variant Human (feats).

[Eldariel]

A lot of spells are going to fall into the problem of either being super-game-winning-awesome or complete-waste-of-time. Over the course of an adventure or campaign, yes, spells like Hold Person and Phantasmal Force pay dividends because on average they'll pay off more often than not, particularly when you're at a higher level and can spam them out, to an extent. In a knock-out arena, however, where even the slightest slip means that yooooou're outta there, the risk of the spell failing to achieve anything is a huge consideration. It's why the Moon Druid is such a good choice in this scenario and to a lesser extent ranged kite-builds; it gives you a huge safety margin that is hard to overcome. Glass-cannons, on the other hand...probably aren't going to win the tournament, so to speak; their safety margin is too low.

Spells like Web and Spike Growth, on the other hand are totally solid; the low/nil reliance on the RNG, area of effect and duration give you a solid return for the spell slot expended, giving you back some of that safety net.

Well, variance in terms of action success is a big deal. Whether that action is an attack or a save-or-X, they have the same problem; you can't afford to miss unless enemy also misses. Of course, burning a 2nd level slot to no avail is wasteful but it's unlikely that at least in the first round, you'll get to use all your spells so it doesn't even matter all that much except if you do win.

Kiting is terrain dependent, though strong where viable (I like the caster shell for it; Wizards can relatively painlessly precast Longstrider and cast Expeditious Retreat for arenas where it's viable). Outlasting through brute force á la Moon Druid is of course an incredibly solid plan B.

OTOH the reason Sleep is so important is because it has no save so it's close to 100% attack; while it can knock out only one enemy, three characters casting Sleep is rather probably three downed (non-Moon Druid non-Elf) enemies depending on exact positioning. The action reliability is just way better than with basically anything else: most characters will waste about third to half of their turns due to actions failing but Sleep is extremely reliable for its given goal. Of course, it has the drawback of enemies being rousable but if you position it well and have multiple casters or other ways to disable enemies, going 1-for-1 with Sleeps can allow knocking entire enemy team out with unparalleled reliability (hiding doesn't matter, reactions don't matter, saves don't matter, AC doesn't matter). The Kobold Fighter does help there a bit but I wouldn't bet too much on it. If enemy positions Sleeps so that it hits it, it might soak a Sleep but then again, it might not.

[mistajames]

Well, variance in terms of action success is a big deal. Whether that action is an attack or a save-or-X, they have the same problem; you can't afford to miss unless enemy also misses. Of course, burning a 2nd level slot to no avail is wasteful but it's unlikely that at least in the first round, you'll get to use all your spells so it doesn't even matter all that much except if you do win.

Kiting is terrain dependent, though strong where viable (I like the caster shell for it; Wizards can relatively painlessly precast Longstrider and cast Expeditious Retreat for arenas where it's viable). Outlasting through brute force á la Moon Druid is of course an incredibly solid plan B.

OTOH the reason Sleep is so important is because it has no save so it's close to 100% attack; while it can knock out only one enemy, three characters casting Sleep is rather probably three downed (non-Moon Druid non-Elf) enemies depending on exact positioning. The action reliability is just way better than with basically anything else: most characters will waste about third to half of their turns due to actions failing but Sleep is extremely reliable for its given goal. Of course, it has the drawback of enemies being rousable but if you position it well and have multiple casters or other ways to disable enemies, going 1-for-1 with Sleeps can allow knocking entire enemy team out with unparalleled reliability (hiding doesn't matter, reactions don't matter, saves don't matter, AC doesn't matter). The Kobold Fighter does help there a bit but I wouldn't bet too much on it. If enemy positions Sleeps so that it hits it, it might soak a Sleep but then again, it might not.

I think that you hit the nail on the head. I think that any team that you bring in needs to be able to deal with both Sleep and Moon Druid.

Also, people are treating Moon Druid like Wild Shape is the only card they have to play. They are still d8 sword-and-board casters, probably with a decent AC in humanoid form! They also have access to Longstrider - a Brown Bear with a Longstrider buff has 50 movement. That's not exactly easy to hit-and-run. A Dire Wolf has 60ft movement, 37HP, advantage on Perception checks (probably with proficiency and a 16 Wisdom), an attack which knocks prone, and Pack Tactics - how exactly is a rogue going to run from that? How is a Wizard? Short rest after every fight means that they will always be able to Wild Shape twice.

Even at 3, druid is probably the way to go. Heat Metal basically punks anyone wearing metal armor - good luck "hitting and running" from that. Moonbeam deals with other Moon Druid teams. Thunderwave can wipe a team of squishies if you drop multiple Thunderwaves on a party.

[Droppeddead]

Sleep targets the lowest health individual, and wildshape gives thp, it doesn't actually change current heath.

This is wrong. If the druid wildshape only has a single hit point, it will most likely be targeted first. Wildshape doesn't give temp HP.

[WaroftheCrans]

This is wrong. If the druid wildshape only has a single hit point, it will most likely be targeted first. Wildshape doesn't give temp HP.

You are entirely correct. I'm not sure where I was getting that notion from, as polymorph also works that way. I messed that up.

I still don't believe that sleep is the best use of an action with all the variables. I feel you might end up trading your turn for the kobold's turn, or worse yet, the familiar's.

Edit: one reason why it might not be the best is that if sleep succeeds against the druid, he reverts from his wildshape. He loses the wildshape but nothing else. It's another factor to consider.

[mistajames]

You are entirely correct. I'm not sure where I was getting that notion from, as polymorph also works that way. I messed that up.

I still don't believe that sleep is the best use of an action with all the variables. I feel you might end up trading your turn for the kobold's turn, or worse yet, the familiar's.

Edit: one reason why it might not be the best is that if sleep succeeds against the druid, he reverts from his wildshape. He loses the wildshape but nothing else. It's another factor to consider.

Against 3 moon druids, I could even see a Moon Druid teammate dropping an attack on their own ally to wake them up (they have HP to spare), then bumrushing the wizard in Deinonychus form with a Pounce + additional claw/claw/bite. In any event, I don't see a lone caster surviving 8-12 Deinonychus attacks in a turn (many of which likely having advantage due to Pounce).

[Eldariel]

Against 3 moon druids, I could even see a Moon Druid teammate dropping an attack on their own ally to wake them up (they have HP to spare), then bumrushing the wizard in Deinonychus form with a Pounce + additional claw/claw/bite. In any event, I don't see a lone caster surviving 8-12 Deinonychus attacks in a turn (many of which likely having advantage due to Pounce).

The question isn't if they survive but rather if they can be Healing Worded. Though anyone with Shield spell, Shield item and heavy armor prof for Splint Mail could get AC 24, which would make the flurry of attacks far less efficient. Either way, yeah, that's fairly brutal.

FWIW I prefer 2 Druids + Wizard over 3 Druids; Mage Armor evens up the numbers quite a bit and the Wizard can provide dice manipulation.

[Droppeddead]

You are entirely correct. I'm not sure where I was getting that notion from, as polymorph also works that way. I messed that up.

No worries, that happens. :)


I still don't believe that sleep is the best use of an action with all the variables. I feel you might end up trading your turn for the kobold's turn, or worse yet, the familiar's.

Yeah, sleep is very situational. It can be useful but it's a quite high risk/reward situation.


Edit: one reason why it might not be the best is that if sleep succeeds against the druid, he reverts from his wildshape. He loses the wildshape but nothing else. It's another factor to consider.

Good point. I think the druid would keep sleeping even when they return to the original form, which is helpful. The again, I'm still convinced that my setup is the best so I'm a bit biased. ;)

As a general note, I'm note sure if three mon druids is the end all to this. They can easily be kited or just blasted to death by, for example, the setup I presented. Anything with at least some durability and ranged power will wreak havoc on them, depending on the conditions of the match.

[Eldariel]

Yeah, sleep is very situational. It can be useful but it's a quite high risk/reward situation.

I do still disagree: it CAN fail but given it has no save, attack roll, targeting of such, with the only roll being a quindice roll (septdice for level 2) with comparatively extremely strong average tendency, it seems to me like has higher reliability than literally anything else (against non-Elf non-Moons). Or suggest an offensive action with a higher chance of success? If not possible, how can it be considered unreliable, unless there are many more reliable options?

[mistajames]

The question isn't if they survive but rather if they can be Healing Worded. Though anyone with Shield spell, Shield item and heavy armor prof for Splint Mail could get AC 24, which would make the flurry of attacks far less efficient. Either way, yeah, that's fairly brutal.

FWIW I prefer 2 Druids + Wizard over 3 Druids; Mage Armor evens up the numbers quite a bit and the Wizard can provide dice manipulation.

Well, if we're on an open plain, 3 Winged Tiefling Warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Agonizing Blast would probably punk the Moon Druid team. Earthbind is probably a mandatory spell pick for the L3 for any party that's not ranged or flying-and-kiting. If the Moon Druids can't get into melee they aren't going to be very effective.

A bunch of winged artificers would also be fairly difficult to beat if they have room to maneuver.

Dice manipulation is great, but it's very unlikely that the Diviner's team can chew through 50HP with a single failed save on a L1-L2 spell.

Barring this, the best choice for the level 2 dudes is Moon Druid, but I am willing to be swayed on the 3rd. I really like Druid here because the team gets a short rest between fights, and Wild Shape is recovered on a short rest. Circle of Stars gives 2 additional casts of Guiding Bolt per long rest and 2 Archer/Chalice forms every fight, which helps support the Moon Druids. They also get Pass Without Trace, which helps to shore up the Moon Druids' weaknesses.

I also figure that the Druids will be focusing down the squishies first. The guy sitting on a 24 AC is probably the last to die.

For the level 3 guy, I figure that a Custom Lineage Warlock would probably be a better choice than Wizard because they get access to 2 level 2 spells every fight (basically, 4/3 slots vs. 6 L2 slots) and an invisible familiar and Inspiring Leader for +7 party HP. They could grab Darkness, everyone takes Devil's Sight, and everyone goes around mauling things within the Darkness spell.

[Droppeddead]

I do still disagree: it CAN fail but given it has no save, attack roll, targeting of such, with the only roll being a quindice roll (septdice for level 2) with comparatively extremely strong average tendency, it seems to me like has higher reliability than literally anything else (against non-Elf non-Moons). Or suggest an offensive action with a higher chance of success? If not possible, how can it be considered unreliable, unless there are many more reliable options?

Well, it's kind of hard to calculate level of success since you don't set any parameters. But the fact that everyone with more than 40 (or more realistically, about 20) HP is immune to it makes it something that is far from universally usable. A warlock using a an Enhanced Arcane Focus borrowed from an artificer will against a (for this level) high AC of 18 hit 45% of the time. If we go by averages, Sleep will be pretty much useless at least in the first round of combat.


Well, if we're on an open plain, 3 Winged Tiefling Warlocks with Eldritch Spear and Agonizing Blast would probably punk the Moon Druid team. Earthbind is probably a mandatory spell pick for the L3 for any party that's not ranged or flying-and-kiting. If the Moon Druids can't get into melee they aren't going to be very effective.

A bunch of winged artificers would also be fairly difficult to beat if they have room to maneuver.

Dice manipulation is great, but it's very unlikely that the Diviner's team can chew through 50HP with a single failed save on a L1-L2 spell.

Barring this, the best choice for the level 2 dudes is Moon Druid, but I am willing to be swayed on the 3rd. I really like Druid here because the team gets a short rest between fights, and Wild Shape is recovered on a short rest. Circle of Stars gives 2 additional casts of Guiding Bolt per long rest and 2 Archer/Chalice forms every fight, which helps support the Moon Druids. They also get Pass Without Trace, which helps to shore up the Moon Druids' weaknesses.

I also figure that the Druids will be focusing down the squishies first. The guy sitting on a 24 AC is probably the last to die.

For the level 3 guy, I figure that a Custom Lineage Warlock would probably be a better choice than Wizard because they get access to 2 level 2 spells every fight (basically, 4/3 slots vs. 6 L2 slots) and an invisible familiar and Inspiring Leader for +7 party HP. They could grab Darkness, everyone takes Devil's Sight, and everyone goes around mauling things within the Darkness spell.

A level three Artificer gives you a fourth team member, which is wonderful for your action economy.

[Eldariel]

Well, it's kind of hard to calculate level of success since you don't set any parameters. But the fact that everyone with more than 40 (or more realistically, about 20) HP is immune to it makes it something that is far from universally usable. A warlock using a an Enhanced Arcane Focus borrowed from an artificer will against a (for this level) high AC of 18 hit 45% of the time. If we go by averages, Sleep will be pretty much useless at least in the first round of combat.

Well, the parameters are quite clear:
- You target level 2 and 3 PCs.
- Level 2 PC with d8 HD and 16 Con will have 8+5+3*2 = 19 base HP on average
- Level 3 PC with d8 HD and 16 Con will have 8+5*2+3*3 = 27 base HP on average

This gives us clear target numbers. 5d8 is 19+ 77,7% of the time. Against the level 3 target, 7d8 from a level 2 slot suffices 79,1% of the time. Those are rather high numbers. Of course, one Sleep might take out familiar (but it's luckily only 1-2 HP so it doesn't hurt more than 5%) and the Kobold Fighter, if you accidentally include it in the AOE, might tank one. Still, if you get to Sleep 3 targets, unless the Initiatives happen to be perfect for the enemy (and this is information you have to work with), they can probably rouse one at best which means a second barrage of Sleeps is lights out (literally).

Of course, Moon Druids are exempted except in human form: if you catch them untransformed it might work, but they can start transformed (though that denies them a Concentration spell) so it's not reliable. Against basically anything else though, it's pretty good. A Rogue or Warlock or whatever party? Great targets. Wizard or Cleric or whatever party? Great targets. Non-Moon Druid or such party? Great targets.


Of course, you could go Sorc and Empower Spell to reroll 1s on those dice for a bit more reliability. Or Metamagic Adept. Seems wasteful though. It's already quite reliable compared to alternatives. Though of course, 3 targets is less reliable than 1. Great if you can land some AOE first too, of course (idk, Dragon's Breath or something, I guess?).