Lvl. 20 Pathfinder vs DnD3.5 SRD Epic Bestiary?

[Schattenbach]

I’m quite curious about how well Pathfinder characters at 20th level do against the epic bestiary from the DnD3.5 SRD (with those monsters their un-nerfed DnD3.5 capabilities and SLA spell-versions, etc.). Since the CR of plenty of those monsters isn’t particularly accurate, though, and quite a few are far weaker than their supposed CR indicates (hello there, CR57 Hecatoncheires encounter, that, while powerful, most certainly doesn’t measure up to CR57).

So lets assume a group of eight decently optimized Pathfinder characters (some at least borderline T1, some T2, some roughly at the upper or at least middle level of T3) are up against the entire epic bestiary found in the SRD, more or less one entry at a time (though summed up to be at least CR28 each), No EXP gain, but WBL is refilled depending on the type of challenge to reasonable degree ...

... how are they going to do?

Bestiary: https://www.d20srd.org/indexes/epicMonstersAndObstacles.htm

General outline of challenge version 1:

Group of eight 20 level Pathfinder PCs (within reasonable limits self-crafted equipment at standard WBL) facing the monsters as simple individual encounter (still roughly grouped creatures of same type/etc. together to be at least CR 28); they have to finish the encounter by slaying it ... at most, they’re allowed to try to run away from each encounter once (playing hide-and-seek or hit-and-run obviously doesn’t really count as "running away" as long as the encounter keeps going) to reorganize, rest 1 day and swap out 25% of their WBL before facing it again. No EXP gain, but WBL is refilled after each encounter with equipment/consumables/etc. deemed necessary at market price. What can they handle and what’s going to be too much, even with creative strategies?

General outline of challenge version 2:

The sample Pathfinder setting faces the end of the world in roughly ten years due to some otherworldly invasion of strange (DnD3.5 Epic ruleset) creatures of incredible might.

Eight lvl 20 Pathfinder characters (see sample list below) have 9 years time (supported by their respective reasonably prosperous kingdoms with ~10 million population each) to prepare for some unknown and unknowable world-destroying invasion. They can use that time accumulate equipment/consumables/constructs/etc. at cost price up to six times their WBL (doesn’t change the amount that’s available per encounter, though; so the other 5/6 function as reserve or culd be invested in some kind of infrastructure like some gigantic fortress or whatever).

In the last year, the various dnd 3.5 epic bestiary creatures appear somewhere in the various kingdoms that’s suitable for them (creatures with CR below 28 are roughly grouped together with others of their kind until their CR reaches 28), causing various local trouble in the region they currently dwell in. The PCs don’t have any particularly helpful beforehand information about the creatures, be it what they are, what they look like nor what they’re capable of, though its fair to assume that they are automatically know upon meeting that that are the otherworldly creatures they’re looking for. The creatures mostly stay put unless provoked (or attracted by something they like) up until the last week of the year, in which they slowly start to converge towards some central location (some kind of world tree/world pillar/whatever that the PCs already know about since ten years ago and can prepare some fortifications to defend against) that they will put under siege and, eventually, taint/damage/destroy if not stopped and killed in time ("killed in time", i.e. end of seventh day).

...
###+++###

... to save time, I’ve already put together some sample party of eight, being a mix of some beefed up T3 classes as well as some classes at least T2 (& at some at least borderline T1 classes); most should be reasonably iconic for Pathfinder (or at least significantly different from the standard DnD3.5 classes).

1x Time Oracle 20 (likely Dual-Cursed Oracle Archetype) ... (Note: Non-Evil alignment)
1x Rebirth Psychic 20 (Wildepath Archetype ... fixed picks are "Death Ward", "Cyclic Reincarnation", "Heal" & "Shapechange") ... VMC Divination School Wizard ... (Note: Non-Evil alignment)
1x Impossible Bloodline Sorcerer 10 / Natural Alchemist 10 ... VMC Divination School Wizard ... (Note: Non-Evil alignment)
1x Witch 20 (Leyline Guardian Archetype) ... VMC Divination School Wizard ... (Note: Non-Evil alignment)
1x Half-Fiend Bloodrager 20 ...
1x Half-Fiend Inquisitor 20 ...
1x Summoner 20 ...
1x Lich Occultist 20 ...

Note: Half-Fiend/Lich transformation through the respective Occult rituals performed at Lvl. 20. Being Evil or with Evil subtype actually seems like a decent boost for this challenge (for Melee-types in particular) due to at-Will CL26+ Blasphemy (in some cases CL36 or so) being a legit threat.

If this setup is too unpopular or seems to unfeasible, please feel free to suggest some other group configurations.

One could also shrink the number of PCs down to 4 and, possibly shrink the minimum CR of each encounter down to CR25.

Assumed variant rules in play:
#Massive Damage rules (Pathfinder standard version)
#Unchained Action Economy variant rules (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/unchained-rules/unchained-action-economy/)
(optional, though somewhat fair)#Damage Conversion rules (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/damageConversion.htm) (bad for PCs due to Monsters possessing lots of Natural Armour and Fast Healing & Regeneration)
(optional, though somewhat fair)#Bell Curved Rolls (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/adventuring/bellCurveRolls.htm) (disfavours weaker side, which is, in this case, the PCs)
(optional)#Wounds Levels (unchained Variant rule) (bad for PCs due to monsters not being affected all that much)

Well, anyway ... I guess we could start with Challenge 1 since that one is easier to handle. How to handle that one? One easy way to handle this seems to be to start with one encounter and- after finishing discussing it - vote for what the next encounter to suggest should be, though that shouldn’t stop anyone from expressing their opinion how a particular encounter might go.

Has someone some suggestion about which monster to start the discussion with? If no one suggests anything else, then I would nominate the Antropal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) ...

... which, thanks to at-Will CL30 Blasphemy, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Greater Invisibility & Dispell Magic, Undead-type+Regeneration combo & Insta-Kill on critical hit is likely to result in a Party kill in pretty much most cases; +77 on Perceptive skill checks even foils tricks like mind blank+greater invisibility, but that’s already countered by the Atropal carpet-bombing suspicious places with at-will Greater Dispell Magic. With immunities from undead type & divine rank 0 & SR 42, there isn’t much they can do to it before it regenerates/fast heals it away, anyway.

[AvatarVecna]

You're throwing lvl 20 characters against epic threats, and adding on a handful of variant rules that stack the deck further against them? Is there a point to this exercise?

A lot of these higher-level threats will possess SR that makes them difficult to deal with via magic. Additionally, "epic 3.5 magic" is going to outperform "nonepic PF magic" for the most part, so getting into a duel is a bad idea even if the enemy doesn't have SR. Our only real advantage is that these are WotC enemies, so not only are they generally over-CR'd, but they're also neither built nor necessarily played all that optimally.

A couple useful things for anybody who's considering doing this:

1) Gunslinger or Trench Fighter with advanced/modern firearms will have accuracy, damage, and range aplenty.

2) Casters are best employed for gathering information on the targets via Knowledge checks, which shouldn't be too difficult to get some truly absurd check bonuses with enough casting. This'll inform y'all of how many and what buffs the gunslingers will need.

3) Buff the gunslingers to the gills and greater teleport them to a ways away from their target. Stealth up, get as close as reasonable, and then pump them full of enchanted lead. If you've got enough boosting it, 5 range increments for touch-AC-targeting should have you outside even the biggest sense ranges.

4) At this level, 49 RP custom races won't raise your effective level.

Best of luck to whoever wants to build 8 20th lvl characters for somebody else's weird niche theorycrafting exercise.

[noob]

A psychic can use repeatedly option 1 from Artificial Ascension to stack all the class features and monster abilities ever through the fact there is a template that allows the construction as a construct of any creature and the fact any construct can be built as a robot.
So just write "8 psychics with all the cool class and monster abilities ever" as a team because the psychic will kill all the 8 others and replace them with a self duplicating ability or something.

Even if you did not do that you could just use one of those gunslinger builds that deals thousands of damage per turn (tested notably against the devil in pathfinder) to invalidate a lot of the epic monsters.(scry to find the devastation they are doing(they probably are themselves scrying immune) then teleport and kill or stuff like that)

[Endarire]

The most notable WotC epic threats from the SRD are the casters, mostly the Dragons. Much of everything else can be beaten with forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first.

[noob]

The most notable WotC epic threats from the SRD are the casters, mostly the Dragons. Much of everything else can be beaten with forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first.

The main reason the dragons are threathening is that they do not have their picked spells indicated.
Else if WOTC did pick their spells they would be as threatening as the example demi liche.
The gibbering orb is probably the scariest dnd monster if it gets it tentacles on a caster with a good spell list or many casters with some of them having picked good spells(like ice assassin, celerity, time stop, wish, miracle, gate and so on).
Some monsters have good spells likes such as efreets, nightmares and so on.

[upho]

I’m quite curious about how well Pathfinder characters at 20th level do against the epic bestiary from the DnD3.5 SRD (with those monsters their un-nerfed DnD3.5 capabilities and SLA spell-versions, etc.).In the two scenarios, using the extremely sparse limitations on PC builds options you've outlined, I believe there are quite a few types of high-op PC builds that wouldn't even break a sweat going solo against every one of these foes which have set spells/SLAs. Including quite a few PCs with only minor casting progression or none at all.

The primary reasons for this are the "all 1PP options possibly available to level 20 PCs allowed as written" (AFAICT), the "refilled/huge WBL", and especially the "one entry at a time" and otherwise unspecified nature of the challenges (notably the lack of demanding time restraints and environments). Despite using the unchained action rules - which admittedly are detrimental and/or simply non-existent for tons of otherwise highly suitable PC build options/combos - this means for example:

Stealth vs. Senses/Perception For example, none of the abominations have a Spot or Listen bonus even remotely as high as the Hecatoncheires' +104, while any PC relying on stealth will most likely have a Stealth bonus of at least +123 vs. Listen and Spot, regardless of the enemy's senses. And that's on top of the PC being protected by both impenetrable veil and mind blank, granting unconditional HiPS and two layers of immunity to detection via divination magic (including true seeing). On the flip side, I don't think any of the monsters have a Hide or Move Silently bonus above +66, while a PC is bound to have a Perception bonus of at least +87 and senses able to pin-point any monster within 120' in any light conditions (and is often able to see through fog, smoke, haze and similar, unlike the vast majority of monsters).
Initiative AFAICT, none of the monsters have an initiative bonus above +27, while a PC will most likely have one above +46.
Actions In Surprise/First Round AFAICT, none of the monsters are able to take actions before their first turn in combat, while it can be assumed that any PC is at the very least protected by foresight (or equivalent), typically in addition to having highly effective active defenses ready at the start of any combat (such as defensive immediate action or automatically triggered abilities/spells, and/or combos including highly accurate AoOs with crippling hit effects, special AoO triggers, great reach, Combat Reflexes, etc).
Action Economy One single prepared high-op PC will have an effective combat action economy (often vastly) superior to that of any one of the foes with a CR of 28+, while groups of the foes with a lower individual CR are instead rarely dangerous enough to be much of a threat.


In short, even without advanced or modern firearms, many types of more martial PCs won't find it difficult to take any of these poor piles of glorified NPC warrior numbers out of combat before they've been able to take a single action. When it comes to the foes without a set list - especially such foes with access to epic spells - it's nigh impossible to tell whether the PCs could be successful.


So lets assume a group of eight decently optimized Pathfinder characters (some at least borderline T1, some T2, some roughly at the upper or at least middle level of T3) are up against the entire epic bestiary found in the SRD, more or less one entry at a time (though summed up to be at least CR28 each), No EXP gain, but WBL is refilled depending on the type of challenge to reasonable degree ...Nitpick, but eight level 20 PCs is a CR 26 encounter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/#Table-CR-Equivalencies), not 28.

And though somewhat dependent on the spells chosen for the creatures without a set list, the number of PCs probably won't matter much if any one of them is able to prepare and go nova in every encounter. Conversely, very few (if any) group of eight PCs will have much of a chance against the more powerful foes without any of the options which normally require special GM permission or which would be OP, broken and/or plain stupid even in most high-power games (such as advanced/modern firearms, glimpse of the akashic, trompe l'oeil constructs, Leadership, binding/calling unique outsiders, player-created and/or monstrous PC races, transformation rituals like Apotheosis, etc).


1x Half-Fiend Bloodrager 20 ... Make this say a Primalist Bloodrider abyssal BR 16, MoMS Monk 1, Ragechemist Alchemist 2, Mammoth Rider 1 natural attack supercharger build, and at least none of the abominations will survive combat long enough to take their first action.


Note: Half-Fiend/Lich transformation through the respective Occult rituals performed at Lvl. 20. Being Evil or with Evil subtype actually seems like a decent boost for this challenge (for Melee-types in particular) due to at-Will CL26+ Blasphemy (in some cases CL36 or so) being a legit threat.If evil transformation rituals are kosher, I'd leave those cute little half-measures for my minions and go all in BBEG EVILTM with the four Apotheosis rituals instead. I mean, the lich cleric and half-fiend bloodrager would look like jokes when compared to their 40 HD pit fiend and balor counterparts...


Has someone some suggestion about which monster to start the discussion with? If no one suggests anything else, then I would nominate the Antropal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) ...

... which, thanks to at-Will CL30 Blasphemy, Greater Teleport, Plane Shift, Greater Invisibility & Dispell Magic, Undead-type+Regeneration combo & Insta-Kill on critical hit is likely to result in a Party kill in pretty much most cases; +77 on Perceptive skill checks even foils tricks like mind blank+greater invisibility, but that’s already countered by the Atropal carpet-bombing suspicious places with at-will Greater Dispell Magic. With immunities from undead type & divine rank 0 & SR 42, there isn’t much they can do to it before it regenerates/fast heals it away, anyway.Not with a pathetic initiative of +6 and no foresight, applicable contingency, or even uncanny dodge or Combat Reflexes and a great reach. Not a chance. Heck, even without using any of the mentioned cheese, a high-op fighter 20 melee control build could most likely take out four atropals within 200' before any of them could even use offensive language, slapping them phase locked for a round and dazed for 6-13 rounds (and prone if they weren't flying). Meaning they'd be incapable of even thinking about anything other than the obligatory imaginary little singing demi-lich skulls flying around their heads, while the fighter casually destroys them in the following couple of rounds.

And for much the same reasons, it appears the only abomination able to seriously challenge this fighter is the xixecal, and only because it has such a stupidly high CMD. Which illustrates how high level straight combats in general, and those between one or more high-op PCs and one or two 1PP monsters in particular, are nearly always rocket-tag duels won before the first round has ended, if not long before initiative is rolled.


A psychic can use repeatedly option 1 from Artificial Ascension to stack all the class features and monster abilities ever through the fact there is a template that allows the construction as a construct of any creature and the fact any construct can be built as a robot.No: (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ItemName=Robot)

"A GM can add the robot subtype to a different type of construct, such as an animated object or homunculus, to create new types of robots. ... A character can’t create a robot from or add the robot subtype to a construct that has already been created; adding the robot subtype to an existing creature is purely a means for the GM to simulate additional robots beyond those provided here."
(My emphasis.)


The most notable WotC epic threats from the SRD are the casters, mostly the Dragons. Much of everything else can be beaten with forcecage, flight, (improved) invisibility, long-range weaponry (mostly spells), and simply going first.With the exception of forcecage (practically useless against most of these foes), I agree. Though it's worth noting that these PCs have access to PF's martial class levels and options, and those can IME provide significantly more offensive combat power than the PF caster options against very challenging foes like these. For most full casters, I believe the best long-range offense might include a few large area BFC spells and maybe a couple of no-save/-SR debuffs, but mostly buffs cast on their more martial friends, such as a cannon-wielding synthesist "gunship" and any mobile melee types like the mentioned Dimensional Dervish melee control fighter or natural attack supercharger bloodrager.

Although with the cheese on the table in this particular case, even a wizard could of course also grab a few ranged combat feats and simply pop a high CL glimpse of the akashic to become pretty lethal with guns. Yeah, that spell is bonkers.


The main reason the dragons are threathening is that they do not have their picked spells indicated.
Else if WOTC did pick their spells they would be as threatening as the example demi liche.Definitely. And browsing these foes again after more than a decade, they feel even more like uninspired piles of inflated base numbers than how I remembered them. The huge potential differences between those with spells chosen by WotC and those with open lists also reminds me of how weak and uninspired basically all of epic besides the spells felt, making all the flaws of PF's mythic feel almost charming in comparison.



The gibbering orb is probably the scariest dnd monster if it gets it tentacles on a caster with a good spell list or many casters with some of them having picked good spells(like ice assassin, celerity, time stop, wish, miracle, gate and so on).Yeah, although I believe none of those spells are likely to make the orb much less of a barely noticed speed-bump even for a solo PC in the two scenarios outlined in the OP. Like any other epic monster below about CR 35 and a mostly set spell list AFAICT, the orb desperately needs a huge buff to initiative, foresight (or equivalent) and/or plenty of friends to pose a real threat in combat. In addition, the orb's many offensive spells need far higher DCs, or different spells effective without a save and regardless of the target's current hp (blasphemy would fit), and if it's supposed to have a use for its melee stuff, it also needs a much greater accuracy to function with PF's grapple rules, along with greater reach. (For example, the mentioned control fighter, without any of the mentioned cheese, has AC 62, CMD 71 vs. grapple, a melee reach of 30-35', and no save bonus below +35 vs. magic, or +43 vs. mind-affecting).

[Psyren]

In addition to everything AvatarVecna said, which system forms the base? You mention things like Blasphemy and regeneration, which function very differently in PF than they do in 3.5. When the epic monster uses these abilities, which version do they get? What about when the PCs do? Are they playing by different rules?

[noob]

In the two scenarios, using the extremely sparse limitations on PC builds options you've outlined, I believe there are quite a few types of high-op PC builds that wouldn't even break a sweat going solo against every one of these foes which have set spells/SLAs. Including quite a few PCs with only minor casting progression or none at all.

The primary reasons for this are the "all 1PP options possibly available to level 20 PCs allowed as written" (AFAICT), the "refilled/huge WBL", and especially the "one entry at a time" and otherwise unspecified nature of the challenges (notably the lack of demanding time restraints and environments). Despite using the unchained action rules - which admittedly are detrimental and/or simply non-existent for tons of otherwise highly suitable PC build options/combos - this means for example:

Stealth vs. Senses/Perception For example, none of the abominations have a Spot or Listen bonus even remotely as high as the Hecatoncheires' +104, while any PC relying on stealth will most likely have a Stealth bonus of at least +123 vs. Listen and Spot, regardless of the enemy's senses. And that's on top of the PC being protected by both impenetrable veil and mind blank, granting unconditional HiPS and two layers of immunity to detection via divination magic (including true seeing). On the flip side, I don't think any of the monsters have a Hide or Move Silently bonus above +66, while a PC is bound to have a Perception bonus of at least +87 and senses able to pin-point any monster within 120' in any light conditions (and is often able to see through fog, smoke, haze and similar, unlike the vast majority of monsters).
Initiative AFAICT, none of the monsters have an initiative bonus above +27, while a PC will most likely have one above +46.
Actions In Surprise/First Round AFAICT, none of the monsters are able to take actions before their first turn in combat, while it can be assumed that any PC is at the very least protected by foresight (or equivalent), typically in addition to having highly effective active defenses ready at the start of any combat (such as defensive immediate action or automatically triggered abilities/spells, and/or combos including highly accurate AoOs with crippling hit effects, special AoO triggers, great reach, Combat Reflexes, etc).
Action Economy One single prepared high-op PC will have an effective combat action economy (often vastly) superior to that of any one of the foes with a CR of 28+, while groups of the foes with a lower individual CR are instead rarely dangerous enough to be much of a threat.


In short, even without advanced or modern firearms, many types of more martial PCs won't find it difficult to take any of these poor piles of glorified NPC warrior numbers out of combat before they've been able to take a single action. When it comes to the foes without a set list - especially such foes with access to epic spells - it's nigh impossible to tell whether the PCs could be successful.

Nitpick, but eight level 20 PCs is a CR 26 encounter (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/Gamemastering/#Table-CR-Equivalencies), not 28.

And though somewhat dependent on the spells chosen for the creatures without a set list, the number of PCs probably won't matter much if any one of them is able to prepare and go nova in every encounter. Conversely, very few (if any) group of eight PCs will have much of a chance against the more powerful foes without any of the options which normally require special GM permission or which would be OP, broken and/or plain stupid even in most high-power games (such as advanced/modern firearms, glimpse of the akashic, trompe l'oeil constructs, Leadership, binding/calling unique outsiders, player-created and/or monstrous PC races, transformation rituals like Apotheosis, etc).

Make this say a Primalist Bloodrider abyssal BR 16, MoMS Monk 1, Ragechemist Alchemist 2, Mammoth Rider 1 natural attack supercharger build, and at least none of the abominations will survive combat long enough to take their first action.

If evil transformation rituals are kosher, I'd leave those cute little half-measures for my minions and go all in BBEG EVILTM with the four Apotheosis rituals instead. I mean, the lich cleric and half-fiend bloodrager would look like jokes when compared to their 40 HD pit fiend and balor counterparts...

Not with a pathetic initiative of +6 and no foresight, applicable contingency, or even uncanny dodge or Combat Reflexes and a great reach. Not a chance. Heck, even without using any of the mentioned cheese, a high-op fighter 20 melee control build could most likely take out four atropals within 200' before any of them could even use offensive language, slapping them phase locked for a round and dazed for 6-13 rounds (and prone if they weren't flying). Meaning they'd be incapable of even thinking about anything other than the obligatory imaginary little singing demi-lich skulls flying around their heads, while the fighter casually destroys them in the following couple of rounds.

And for much the same reasons, it appears the only abomination able to seriously challenge this fighter is the xixecal, and only because it has such a stupidly high CMD. Which illustrates how high level straight combats in general, and those between one or more high-op PCs and one or two 1PP monsters in particular, are nearly always rocket-tag duels won before the first round has ended, if not long before initiative is rolled.

No: (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterFamilies.aspx?ItemName=Robot)

"A GM can add the robot subtype to a different type of construct, such as an animated object or homunculus, to create new types of robots. ... A character can’t create a robot from or add the robot subtype to a construct that has already been created; adding the robot subtype to an existing creature is purely a means for the GM to simulate additional robots beyond those provided here."
(My emphasis.)

With the exception of forcecage (practically useless against most of these foes), I agree. Though it's worth noting that these PCs have access to PF's martial class levels and options, and those can IME provide significantly more offensive combat power than the PF caster options against very challenging foes like these. For most full casters, I believe the best long-range offense might include a few large area BFC spells and maybe a couple of no-save/-SR debuffs, but mostly buffs cast on their more martial friends, such as a cannon-wielding synthesist "gunship" and any mobile melee types like the mentioned Dimensional Dervish melee control fighter or natural attack supercharger bloodrager.

Although with the cheese on the table in this particular case, even a wizard could of course also grab a few ranged combat feats and simply pop a high CL glimpse of the akashic to become pretty lethal with guns. Yeah, that spell is bonkers.

Definitely. And browsing these foes again after more than a decade, they feel even more like uninspired piles of inflated base numbers than how I remembered them. The huge potential differences between those with spells chosen by WotC and those with open lists also reminds me of how weak and uninspired basically all of epic besides the spells felt, making all the flaws of PF's mythic feel almost charming in comparison.


Yeah, although I believe none of those spells are likely to make the orb much less of a barely noticed speed-bump even for a solo PC in the two scenarios outlined in the OP. Like any other epic monster below about CR 35 and a mostly set spell list AFAICT, the orb desperately needs a huge buff to initiative, foresight (or equivalent) and/or plenty of friends to pose a real threat in combat. In addition, the orb's many offensive spells need far higher DCs, or different spells effective without a save and regardless of the target's current hp (blasphemy would fit), and if it's supposed to have a use for its melee stuff, it also needs a much greater accuracy to function with PF's grapple rules, along with greater reach. (For example, the mentioned control fighter, without any of the mentioned cheese, has AC 62, CMD 71 vs. grapple, a melee reach of 30-35', and no save bonus below +35 vs. magic, or +43 vs. mind-affecting).

Scenario Time stop: the gibbering orb gets time stop.
Now it can cast it at will for all a day.
That makes a lot of time where it can decide to have an infinity of turns.
Scenario ice assassin: it can now make 2 ice assassins per turn all day long that will probably stack up a lot.
Scenario gate: loads of gates so many gates, gate gate gate.
Wish: get as many op magical items as desired, spam simulacrums, accumulate contingent spells(the magical item variant),add to itself hd with polymorph and awaken....
Miracle: Probably the weakest option here: it is mostly useful to simulate simulacrum and for awaken loops.

All of it rests on the fact the gibbering orb is never said to spent spells, can cast spells that are not even prepared and is also said to cast spells at will being interpreted as "it does not spends the spells" but if you want to not have instant dire TO threats you can just interpret it another way.(It still can be dangerous with ice assasin: make an ice assasin of a wizard with ice assasin prepared twice, eat it then restart)

[AntiAuthority]

I took a look, the Legendary Animals are manageable and figured it wasn't that bad... Then I read the Demilich and Umbral Blot's sections and they're kind of going to kill everyone. The first because succeeding your save means you gain negative levels, and failing gets your soul stolen. The latter is literally a traveling blackhole that can teleport, plane shift and become invisible and intangible on the material plane... It also has a bunch of immunities that constructs have. I think the PF characters are going to die.

If it was Mythic PF, they... Probably still lose, just not as hard. Why not give them Mythic, now that I think about it? I remember reading a while ago when comparing Epic to Mythic... Epic won out in terms of usefulness, so I doubt Mythic would really work here, but it gives them something resembling a chance...

[Kaouse]

I happened to have a fairly well-optimized level 20 Pathfinder Barbarian (https://www.myth-weavers.com/sheet.html#id=2092866) all stat-ed out, so I thought, why not?

The dude is a Barbarian with the following archetypes:

Beastkin Berserker (allows for Beast Shape I - III while in rage)
Savage Technologist (increase STR & DEX rather than STR & CON in rage, no AC penalty)
Savage Barbarian (exchange trap sense & DR for AC bonuses)

The things he can turn into include the following:

Bat (Diminutive) [Flight, Blindsense]
Giant Squid (Huge) [30 ft Reach, Grab, Constrict, Swim]
Allosaurus (Huge) [Pounce, Grab, Rake]
Dire Badger (Medium) [Burrow 10 ft. even in solid rock]
Mastodon (Huge) [Trample = AoE]

As a result, he's pretty versatile. While he's in Bat form, his AC rises by 10 to 45, which is respectable for this level. His attack rolls include the buff from Rage, Beast Shape, and Reckless Abandon however, the latter of which does reduce AC.

Thanks to all of his rage powers, he has really high saves vs magic, a free reroll, a bunch of immunities, plus the ability to see through invisibility, illusions, darkness, fog etc. as well as the ability to Spell Sunder (which is a lot easier with Strength Surge boosting his CMB check by 20, to around a max of +60 - again respectable, though not likely to flip over Cthulu or anything crazy anytime soon).

Moreover, he has an Ioun Wyrd as a Protector Familiar. This little beast is a construct, and has "In Harm's Way" to take hits for him. It also comes equipped with a Tower Shield, which allows it to protect him due to the Teamwork feat, Shield Wall. As a result, he's fairly difficult to take down. Said familiar also has a constant "Shield Other" on him, and has equivalent HP to him, meaning that this Barbarian has an effective hp over 500.

Of course, not all is sunshine and roses though. As you can no doubt see, this dude's initiative is pretty garbage at +12. Worse still, the vast majority of his AC is DEX-based, so he's incredibly vulnerable when caught flat-footed. Savage Intuition mitigates this slightly by allowing him to rage at the start of any combat, but even then it doesn't prevent him from being flat-footed to begin with.

Still, I'm pretty sure he's more than enough for the Atropal, who has an even worse initiative score than he does.

EDIT: Should probably note that I'm assuming that the GM is running with the Pathfinder version of Blasphemy, which offers a save, and not the 3.5 one, which doesn't offer a save. Otherwise, the only means of winning against these things would be to one-shot kill them before any of them get a turn. Which...isn't all that fun for me. Pretty sure I can grapple the Atropal on a 2, at least. So there's that. Pretty confident that I can 1v1 an Atropal with this build, though I dunno about the rest of this list here...

[Yak folklore]

You really underestimate Hecatoncheires 100 attacks, multiple dice each, +55 to hit, even at range. 1000 health, 70 ac, regains 90 hp per turn, takes nonlethal for most attacks, only a deity could really overcome SR 70, fly at will, immune to scrying, no illusions (truesight), ability damage, polymorphing, mind affecting, no surprising (blindsight), oh, and you have to fight TWO. How is it not fair?

Also, barbarian V atropal guy, can you make a DC 59 charisma save consistently, because if not, how long is you Con going to last as -10 a turn?

[Kaouse]

You really underestimate Hecatoncheires 100 attacks, multiple dice each, +55 to hit, even at range. 1000 health, 70 ac, regains 90 hp per turn, takes nonlethal for most attacks, only a deity could really overcome SR 70, fly at will, immune to scrying, no illusions (truesight), ability damage, polymorphing, mind affecting, no surprising (blindsight), oh, and you have to fight TWO. How is it not fair?

Also, barbarian V atropal guy, can you make a DC 59 charisma save consistently, because if not, how long is you Con going to last as -10 a turn?

I have no pretensions over fighting the CR 57 Hecatoncheires with my level 20 non-spellcaster Barbarian. Maybe my level 20 Cyclopean Ser Oracle who can debuff people with a -20 to saves and then hit them with a DC ~40 100% real Shades Trap the Soul delivered with a Greater Quicken Metamagic Rod. But as a Barbarian? Whose main combat shtick is turning into a Huge sized creature for combat? lol no. Not a chance.

As for the atropal, I can't make that save consistently. But it's not really a huge deal. My familiar can use In Harm's Way in order to take one hit for me each round. And being a construct, it's immune to Con drain. This only really matters when I'm grappling it though, since when I'm not grappling, my familiar can just spend it's turn readying an action to erect it's tower shield and use it to block me from attacks thanks to the Shield Wall feat.

When I am grappling, I only need to take a single round's worth of enemy actions before I move to pin the creature. Even without my familiar blocking attacks for me, I can just take the 10 CON drain it'll inflict over a single turn. Once the atropal is pinned, it can no longer make attacks at me. At that point, I can tie it up and just wail on it till it's dead. Or skip tying it up and just constrict it till it dies.

Still, I should note, that this Pathfinder Barbarian build wasn't exactly tailor-made to handle epic 3.5 creatures. I had a level 12 build that did really well in a PvP tournament, and wanted to see exactly how far the build could go. I'm proud of what this build can accomplish. I'm especially proud of it's versatility (especially the fact that it doesn't need to rely on consumables in order to function), and I think it should be a welcome addition on any team. Even if it can't hold a candle to the Hecatoncheires. Even if casters will always be stronger.

[AvatarVecna]

Let's see if item shenanigans are enough to tip the scales a bit more...



Basics (4)

Type (0): Humanoid (Goblin)
Size (0): Small
Speed (0): Normal
Attributes (4): Advanced (Str -2, Dex +4, Int +2, Wis +2, Cha +2)
Languages (0): Standard


Attribute Traits (30)

30: Advanced Dexterity 5


Feat/Skill Traits (8)

4: Focused Study
2: Silent Hunter
2: Static Bonus Feat (Improved Initiative)


Movement Traits (7)

3: Fleet-Footed
3: Swift As Shadows
1: Fast



Race: Advanced/Young/Mythic Goblin

Class: Fighter 20 (Trench Fighter)

Attributes:

Lvl 1 (pre-race): 13/18/13/9/9/9
Lvl 1 (post-race): 11/40/13/15/15/15
Lvl 20 (post-items): 22/56/24/26/26/26


Traits:

Combat: Reactionary
Race: Balloon-Headed
Regional: Bandit
Social: Adopted (Human: Carefully Hidden)


Trained Skills (* is via headband)

Acrobatics
Climb*
Escape Artist
Fly*
Intimidate
Perception
Sense Motive
Stealth
Swim*
Use Magic Device


Feats

Race 1: Improved Initiative
Race 1: Skill Focus (Stealth)
HD 1: Quick Draw
Fighter 1: Weapon Focus (Nagant M1895 Revolver)
Fighter 2: Point-Blank Shot
HD 3: Additional Traits
Fighter 4: Weapon Specialization (Nagant M1895 Revolver)
Race 4: Skill Focus (Perception)
HD 5: Precise Shot
Fighter 6: Rapid Reload
HD 7: Deadly Aim
Fighter 8: Greater Weapon Focus (Nagant M1895 Revolver)
HD 9: Far Shot
Fighter 10: Improved Critical (Nagant M1895 Revolver)
HD 11: Improved Precise Shot
Fighter 12: Greater Weapon Specialization (Nagant M1895 Revolver)
HD 13: Signature Skill (Stealth)
Fighter 14: Clustered Shots
HD 15: Amateur Gunslinger (Gunslinger's Initiative)
Fighter 16: Dazzling Display
Race 16: Skill Focus (Acrobatics)
HD 17: Gun Twirling
Fighter 18: Two-Weapon Fighting
HD 19: Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
Fighter 20: Greater Two-Weapon Fighting


Weapon Training
5: Firearms +4
9: Armed Bravery
13: Fighter's Reflexes
17: Effortless Dual-Wielding
[/list]


All items are restricted to LG Fighters with 20 ranks in UMD. This reduces actual market price by 50%. I'll be noting their standard cost, but they're spending half that (and this means buying items that would normally be worth up to 400000 gp). Effects beyond the base effect will be at x1.5 cost, though, as per PF effect-stacking rules. Additionally, while PF is supposed to be backwards-compatible, this is supposed to be PF vs 3.5, so I'll avoid mixing in 3.5 spell effects.

Items come to a total of 2907539 gp after reduction. This is well within the limit of having only 8 WBLs worth in the field at a time (7040000 gp).

Full Set Of Manuals/Tomes (825000)

Weapon: Big Iron (200400)

400: Nagant M1895 Revolver
200000: Enchantment +10 worth

1: Enhancement +1
1: Distance
1: Reliable
1: Seeking
2: Phase Locking
4: Nimble Shot



Weapon: Big Iron (200400)

400: Nagant M1895 Revolver
200000: Enchantment +10 worth

1: Enhancement +1
1: Distance
1: Reliable
1: Seeking
2: Phase Locking
4: Nimble Shot



Armor: Bulletproof Vest (250153)

153: Masterwork Haramaki
100000: Enchantment +10 worth

1: Enhancement +1
1: Impervious
3: Ghost Touch
5: Heavy Fortification


75000: AC +5 (natural)
75000: AC +5 (deflection)


Belt: Olympian's Belt (346500)

36000: Strength +6 (enhancement)
54000: Dexterity +6 (enhancement)
54000: Constitution +6 (enhancement)
33750: Acrobatics +15 (competence)
33750: Climb +15 (competence)
33750: Escape Artist +15 (competence)
33750: Fly +15 (competence)
33750: Stealth +15 (competence)
33750: Swim +15 (competence)


Body: Grim Robe (320000)

320000: Continuous "Reaper's Coterie" CL 20


Chest: Courier's Duster (396000)

90000: Slotless "Endless Bandolier" (40)
200000: SR 32
2000: Slotless "Muleback Cords"
4000: Slotless "Heavyload Belt"
100000: Slotless "Mantle Of Immortality"


Eyes: Shades Of Absolute Vision (371000)

126000: Continuous "Echolocation"
245000: Continuous "True Seeing"


Feet: Ghost Boots (314000)

90000: Continuous "Fly"
224000: Continuous "Greater Invisibility"


Hands: Tinker's Gloves (378000)

108000: At-Will Command Word "Magic Vestments" CL 20
162000: At-Will Command Word "Greater Magic Weapon" CL 20
108000: At-Will Command Word "Align Weapon" CL 20


Head: Lawman's Fedora (324000)

144000: At-Will Command Word "Bestow Grace Of The Champion" CL 20
180000: Continuous "Mind Blank"


Headband: Scholar's Headband (279000)

36000: Intelligence +6 (enhancement)
54000: Wisdom +6 (enhancement)
54000: Charisma +6 (enhancement)
33750: Intimidate +15 (competence)
33750: Perception +15 (competence)
33750: Sense Motive +15 (competence)
33750: Use Magic Device +15 (competence)


Neck: Amulet Of True Protection (343750)

62500: AC +5 (insight)
93750: AC +5 (luck)
93750: AC +5 (profane)
93750: AC +5 (sacred)


Ring: Prismatic Ring (231000)

33000: Continuous "Resist Energy" CL 11
49500: Continuous "Resist Energy" CL 11
49500: Continuous "Resist Energy" CL 11
49500: Continuous "Resist Energy" CL 11
49500: Continuous "Resist Energy" CL 11


Ring: Adventurer's Ring (351375)

3375: Slotless "Ring Of Sustenance"
60000: Ring Of Freedom Of Movement
168000: Continuous "Death Ward"
120000: Continuous "Haste"


Shoulders: Cloak Of True Resistance (312500)

25000: Saves +5 (resistance)
50000: Saves +5 (insight)
50000: Saves +5 (luck)
50000: Saves +5 (profane)
50000: Saves +5 (sacred)

Wrists: Armbands Of Guided Strikes (372000)
[LIST]
108000: Continuous "Divine Favor" CL 9
264000: Continuous "Greater Heroism"



Relevant Stats:

Initiative +23

AC 72
Touch AC 61
FFAC 49
FF/Touch 38

Fort +52
Ref +66
Will +51

Acrobatics +68
Climb +65
Escape Artist +62
Fly +62
Intimidate +50
Perception +57
Sense Motive +47
Stealth +72 (unchained 20)
Swim +65
Use Magic Device +47

Attack Routine:
+52/+52/+52/+47/+47/+42/+42/+37
1d4+65 (19-20/x5)
range 160/1600

Avg DPR assuming no DR is ~729 damage.

This attack routine includes penalties for TWF, range, and deadly aim. Per PF rules on magic weapons, a +5 weapon with effective +10 enchantment worth will count as epic, any material, and any alignment for the purposes of bypassing DR. Only DR/- is safe, and for that I've got Clustered Shots. I've picked up Align Weapon for the instances where I need a particular alignment to bypass regeneration as well.

I can engage from the air, invisibly, from up to 800 ft away while still targeting touch. Even with full penalties my lowest attack is at +37. I'm not sure offhand there's a monster in the ELH that has Touch AC higher than 39, but at the very least I'm betting they're not that common. And that distance will be out of blindsight/truesight range against the vast majority of them (even the abominations), so probably targeting FF Touch at that assuming they don't have uncanny dodge or foresight or something.

Add in an invisible mage teleporting the two of them around the battlefield to stay out of blindsight range while staying within touch AC range, and even the small percentage of epic monsters that could survive the initial volley will just take a couple extra rounds to whittle down. If they don't have the magic chops to defend themselves properly, or to escape when an unseen enemy starts slaughtering them, they're going to die and there's precious little they can do about it. ELH just doesn't get big enough numbers to ignore him - they're going to need to cheat with magic BS of their own.

EDIT: DPR is ~513 against targets that are crit-immune. Which is more than a few, if the 3.5 monsters get to keep type-based crit-immunities. Although that really just changes how fast they get rekt, not whether they get rekt or not: either they've got the magic chops for fight or flight...or they don't. Otherwise they're just getting hammered for a few extra rounds while they flail helplessly.

[Firebug]

Antropal (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/epic/monsters/abomination.htm#atropal) ... which, thanks to at-Will CL30 Blasphemy,When no-save or die effects are on the line, better pack your Greater Spell Immunity (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Spell%20Immunity)/Aroden's Spellbane (https://aonprd.com/SpellDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Aroden%27s%20Spellbane) . Though being a sonic descriptor spell it is completely negated by Silence. So something like a Contingent Silence would be enough... at least for the first cast.

Ring of Inner Fortitude, Greater (https://aonprd.com/MagicRingsDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Ring%20of%20Inner %20Fortitudeminor) reduces Drain by 3, and Damage by 6 for only 66k.


1x Time Oracle 20 (likely Dual-Cursed Oracle Archetype) ... (Note: Non-Evil alignment)Consider Shigenjo (https://aonprd.com/ArchetypeDisplay.aspx?FixedName=Oracle%20Shigenjo) or another way to get a Ki Pool, Life Mystery, along with Ki Channel (https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Ki%20Channel) and Tea of Transference (https://aonprd.com/EquipmentMiscDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Tea%20of%20tran sference) for 'unlimited' 7th level and lower spell slots.

[upho]

In addition to everything AvatarVecna said, which system forms the base? You mention things like Blasphemy and regeneration, which function very differently in PF than they do in 3.5. When the epic monster uses these abilities, which version do they get? What about when the PCs do? Are they playing by different rules?I simply assumed the monsters use the 3.5 versions and the PCs the PF versions, as far as this is possible. So yeah, for example blasphemy cast by a monster is often a guaranteed no-save death sentence to the PCs, but not vice versa.


All of it rests on the fact the gibbering orb is never said to spent spells, can cast spells that are not even prepared and is also said to cast spells at will being interpreted as "it does not spends the spells" but if you want to not have instant dire TO threats you can just interpret it another way.(It still can be dangerous with ice assasin: make an ice assasin of a wizard with ice assasin prepared twice, eat it then restart)I don't have any doubts your "TO interpretation" is RAW; at-will means at-will, period. And I certainly agree with you that such spells could very well make the orb a practically impossible challenge.

The reason I'm doubting the effectiveness of such spells in this case is because the orb can only get items or minions after initiative has been rolled without affecting the CR of the encounter. This is regardless of whether the items/minions are a result of the orb having used its stolen spells, having been lucky on the stock exchange, having lots of fanatic high-level wizard fanboys, or whatever. And judging by the scarce info in the OP, an "orb encounter" in either scenario can't include anything other than additional epic monsters of the same type to increase the CR from the orb's 27 to the minimum 28.

So I'm assuming the orb simply poofs into the setting together with the epic monsters it's been grouped with (presumably somewhere in the vicinity of the PCs in scenario 1), having whichever two stolen stolen spells the DM decided to give it. And I'm also assuming the DM takes into consideration the impact that decision would've had on the 3.5 setting the orb came from. Which would probably make for example a time stop and wish combo highly questionable, even if the orb can't bring any of the resulting items or minions.

(Not that it really matters, and again judging by the scarce info in the OP, but I believe the monsters are also limited to the options found in the SRD. So no ice assassin or, IIRC, item variant contingent spells, for example).


I took a look, the Legendary Animals are manageable and figured it wasn't that bad... Then I read the Demilich and Umbral Blot's sections and they're kind of going to kill everyone. The first because succeeding your save means you gain negative levels, and failing gets your soul stolen.It seems you greatly underestimate the potential combat power of high-op 20th level PCs. Aside from the fact that it's extremely unlikely that such a PC fails what would typically be a DC 31 Fort save with no effect on success, in order to even force a PC to make that save, the demilich first has to (using example numbers borrowed from the Dimensional Dervish control fighter 20 mentioned in my previous post; "Peppa Poofapounce (https://docs.google.com/document/d/1XvGPTtUPNEJ4lQzsTCEDCLQ6Sfe2F3Nt5LNkbaqNiyQ/edit?usp=sharing)", which doesn't include any of the cheese I mentioned, like modern firearms or glimpse of the akashic):

1. Have line of sight to the target The demilich has Listen and Spot +27 and no senses to speak of beyond darkvision 60', which is pathetic considering its CR and useless against Peppa's Stealth of +79 (or +99 if she's used a scroll of invisibility, which is likely if she's scouting for foes). Note that even if the demilich hadn't been immune to magic and could use all detect spells in existence, and get lifesight, blindsight and true seeing via its unknown wizard spells, those wouldn't help one iota since Peppa is protected by impenetrable veil and mind blank (so true seeing wouldn't even be able to negate invisibility if Peppa uses it). Conversely, Peppa has Perpception +72 and true seeing with the standard 120' range, and her vision ignores any kind of smoke, haze, fog etc., while the demilich has Hide +35 and Move Silently +23. In short, it's practically impossible for the demilich to target Peppa. This is true even in combat unless the demilich survives long enough to ready an action to use trap the soul when Peppa briefly can't use Stealth, just after she has made an attack and before she becomes undetectable again by poofaporting away to make her next attack.

2. Win initiative If the demilich doesn't go first, it's destroyed before it can do anything at all. Since Peppa is virtually guaranteed to spot the demilich before it can spot Peppa, the demilich will be blinded, dazed and then destroyed in the surprise round when Peppa Dimensional Assault charges it from up to 120' away. If we assume the demilich actually managed to spot Peppa first somehow, it still has to win initiative before it can take any offensive action, since Peppa is protected by foresight. And if we assume also the demilich actually could protected itself with foresight and avoid being surprised, it won't help improve its feeble initiative bonus of +7, which no spells in the SRD can increase enough to stand a chance against Peppa's +41, IIRC. But that's of course purely theoretical, because again: immunity to magic.

TL/DR: Assuming that finding and destroying the demilich's phylactery isn't needed to win, the demilich is AFAICT the only monster without a set list of spells which I'd actually consider a certain win for the PCs, almost exclusively because of its monumentally stupid magic immunity which keeps it from benefiting from any kind of magic buffs (other than those granted by its magic items in its phylactery, presumably). Heck, the poor thing is supposed to be an epic undead super-wizard, but can't even use contingencies to defend itself or run away. :smallannoyed:

AFAICT, Peppa could easily solo at least six demiliches within 300' or so, before any of them would be able to act.


The latter is literally a traveling blackhole that can teleport, plane shift and become invisible and intangible on the material plane... It also has a bunch of immunities that constructs have. I think the PF characters are going to die.An umbral blot is almost as guaranteed to die in a fight against Peppa as the demilich is, for pretty much the same reasons. Although it does at least have a chance of staying hidden from Peppa for a while, it still has no chance of attacking her first. And it certainly won't stand the slightest chance against a party of eight equally optimized PCs. In fact, it can't even inconvenience them by destroying one or two of their weapons should they not pay attention, since their gear will be replaced before the next encounter anyways. (Even if we're assuming hardness doesn't apply, Peppa's main weapon has 180 hp and is therefore unlikely to even become broken by the six hits she needs to daze the blot, and then she can simply rely on her natural attacks and her 315 hp to complete the job.)


If it was Mythic PF, they... Probably still lose, just not as hard. Why not give them Mythic, now that I think about it? I remember reading a while ago when comparing Epic to Mythic... Epic won out in terms of usefulness, so I doubt Mythic would really work here, but it gives them something resembling a chance...A mythic 20th level PC is supposed to have 10 mythic tiers, which in practice is highly likely to make each high-op PC in a prepared party more powerful in combat than, say, Baba Yaga (https://www.aonprd.com/MythicMonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Baba%20Yaga), any Great Old One (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Cthulhu), or any archdevil (https://www.aonprd.com/MonsterDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Mephistopheles) in its own realm. Just look at the baseline abilities all mythic PCs get, and consider how much combat power increases with for example surge, amazing initiative, mythic saving throws, force of will, and unstoppable, things which actually affects the most critical parts of combat, especially at this level (like initiative, action economy and saves). And then consider the really bonkers stuff, like mythic time stop, mythic wish, legendary items with the undetectable ability, etc. etc.

I can't really say whether that would be enough when facing the most dangerous monsters, like the epic great wyrms, since their epic spells might include pretty certain win-buttons. But at least their high base numbers, many immunities and SLAs certainly aren't enough to make them anywhere near invincible. And if those monsters only come with the example epic spells on the SRD, they won't stand a chance against a party of eight prepared mythic PCs AFAICT.


You really underestimate Hecatoncheires 100 attacks, multiple dice each, +55 to hit, even at range. 1000 health, 70 ac, regains 90 hp per turn, takes nonlethal for most attacks, only a deity could really overcome SR 70, fly at will, immune to scrying, no illusions (truesight), ability damage, polymorphing, mind affecting, no surprising (blindsight), oh, and you have to fight TWO. How is it not fair?First off, true seeing doesn't help against the typically most important illusions: those affecting the PCs ability to stay undetected (since those illusions are protected by at least mind blank, and likely also impenetrable veil). Second, blindsight is most certainly not much of a protection against being surprised by 20th level PCs, since even if it happens to be a type not negated by simply carrying a pebble with silence cast on it, it still doesn't help against a PC protected by impenetrable veil. There's only one truly sure way of avoiding a surprise round AFAIK, and that's foresight. And of course, that typically doesn't much increase the chances for a monster unless it also has some great defensive contingencies, numerous out-of-turn actions, or an initiative above at the very least +30 (or probably around +70 if the PCs are allowed to use cheese like glimpse of the akashic).

Second, the hecatoncheires can't make more than 20 attacks against a Large creature during a full attack, and fewer against smaller ones. But more importantly, even if those attacks will almost certainly be enough against a PC who can't do anything but stand there and be cut into shreds, I find that scenario highly unlikely considering the hecatoncheires' poor initiative and lack of out-of-turn actions. Likewise, its immunities, 1000 hp, regen etc. does nothing to protect it from being dazed by dirty tricks into a useless blob of meat for several rounds, nor from being turned into fine red mist by a supercharger or gunslinger, nor from being Intimidated into a cowering heap via Soulless Gaze and draconic malice, before it even gets a chance to act. It does however have a high enough AC and CMD that most martial PCs who don't use guns would probably need cheese like glimpse of the akashic (or at least true strike on the first attack in a combo), to ensure a win if going solo against it. And I suspect it would be very difficult - if not impossible - for a caster to kill it with spells alone.


Also, barbarian V atropal guy, can you make a DC 59 charisma save consistently, because if not, how long is you Con going to last as -10 a turn?I'd assume the barbarian at the very least has for example a reach greater than 15' and unexpected strike if they can neither one-shot the atropal nor hide from it immediately after their first turn. If you're up against truly dangerous enemies, it's vital you do absolutely everything you can to avoid becoming a viable target, so the barbarian should never have to make that Fort save. And that also appears to be precisely what Kaouse's barbarian is capable of, despite not being built to fight epic monsters like the atropal.

[SaltyFiend]

I see alot of good argument downplaying the PC's but really, a handful of 20th level PC's that know what they are doing are going to be more than a match for epic level creatures, depending on how forgiving and non-bull**** they are. Party composition and general status arrays also play a huge part into it, as well as any additional or extra rules you might have going around like gestalt.

This isnt even talking about a min-maxed party even.

Also it depends. A Mythic PC with Blasphemy at level 20 can smite a creature as high as 35 HD with a feat, two magic items and maxed out mythic (for base play). So base insta-kill alignment spells arent that great, but the mythic versions are very good.

Though I can definingly think of something better than a wish spell for the Orb. Cause even if the Orb can try to wish something to death, the creature still gets a will save and there are a number of other spells that the orb could utilize better, such as Wooden Phalanx for a distraction, or mass suffocation to try and kill the whole party, rather than just one creature.

[Zecrin]

In my opinion, the outcome of each battle between epic monster and 8 LV 20 PCs depends both on preparation and level of optimization. Assuming reasonable optimisation on the part of PCs and Monsters and no preparation for either party. I’d say that the:

Atropal (via Blasphemy)
Xixecal (via Blashemy)
Colossi (Via antimagic field and super magic immunity)
Epic Dragons (Via epic spells, high stats [AC, hp, saves, ect.], and exceptional intelligence)
Elder Titan (Via epic spells)

Might be able to pull off a victory.

If given time to prepare, I’d conjecture that the

Infernal (Via wish exploitation)
Phane (Via Past Time Duplicate exploitation)
Demilich (Via super magic immunity, and wizard spellcasting)
Epic Dragons (As above)
Gibbering Orb (Via spell [ab]use and exceptional intelligence)
Elder Titan (As above)

Could feasibly equal or surpass the PCs.