Aleaxes for everyone...

[WorthingSon]

UPDATE HERE (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=3519152#post3519152)

I am currently playing in a campaign where all the PC’s are resurrected divine champions (aka the favored champion of a god) of the order of gods that have just been overthrown. Each PC carries the soul of his god in him, as they hid there after they were overthrown. Now along with everything else we are dealing with we have reason to believe there is an Aleax (text below for those without BoED removed for leagal reasons...) of each of us hunting us down. We are running out of ideas on how to best them.

We encountered one that was after an NPC champion, and came up with our leading strategy so far… grapple. This, however, is not very effective as Aleaxes can shapechange, and simply took the form of a huge fire elemental.

We have 3 PC’s in the party (all gestalt). I am playing a Dvoti Paladin 2/Swordsage 2/ Warblade 4/Spellthief 7. I basically focus on Power Attack/Cleave. I intend to take Backstab (DR 340 p86) next level, so we can assume that I’ll have that before we encounter them. The other 2 PC’s are a Tibbit soul knife 8/soul bow 3/rouge 4/marshal 1 and a Gloura Swordsage 1/Monk 2/Pally 2/Shadow-Sun Ninja 3.

We do not know if the Aleaxes will attack all together or one (in my case two) at a time. We assume one at a time, but that is not guaranteed.

Does anyone have any ideas for how we could beat them?

[WorthingSon]

bump... we are screwed aren't we?

[leperkhaun]

the fact that you have to take them One on One and the fact that they can shapechange into a 20HD critter makes it........ difficult for you to take them on, espiecally when most of you are giving up 5+ levels on it.

i would try to lure them into traps one by one, but yeah id say you are in for it.

[Lord Tataraus]

Unless you can pull some amazing cheese or make an ingenious, barely-rules-legal trap, you're screwed. Of course, are you taking into account the fact that the DM will probably fiat their destruction? Or is he one of those sadistic kinds...is the former, piss him off for getting you in such a big mess that is obvious TPK or fiat. That's what my player's do and I change it afterwards. Of course I'm a nice guy :smallcool:

[Maerok]

Would it work to throw a bunch of rust monsters at it? Or is it not that kind of construct?

[Jasdoif]

Mace of smiting (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#maceofSmiting) couldn't hurt, nor could slaying arrows (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicItems/magicWeapons.htm#slayingArrow) keyed to constructs.

[Guy_Whozevl]

Ray of Clumsiness (if you can get a wand or whatever) will work because Constructs are not immune to ability penalties. Awesome spells like Glitterdust (again, wand), Web, and Grease can work up to a point, as long as they don't Shapechange into something else. Tripping them or disarming them could work too.

[The_Snark]

The traps idea is a good one, but, assuming they only attack one at a time, why not simply bum-rush it with all three party members? As long as you've got just one to deal with, you should be able to take it down without getting completely owned.

Also, perhaps a few Summon Monster spells would be useful?

None of those work:


Singular Enemy (Ex): Although the aleax is visible to all, only
its intended victim can harm it. Attacks made by other creatures
are rebuffed, dealing no damage and hindering the aleax in no
way.

Allies can provide flanking, Aid Another, or buffs, and maybe a distraction, but that's about it. You could make the argument that spells cast by other people would still work, but it might also be that it's immune to anything that would cancel an invisibility spell that originates from something other than the caster.

Me, I think your best bet is to negotiate with whatever deity you've annoyed.

[Lochar]

Me, I think your best bet is to negotiate with whatever deity you've annoyed.

Problem with that is though, if you read the background, they're harboring the souls of the last regime of the gods.

Think of it this way. The Titans are hiding their souls in these mortals. Zeus found out. Do you think Zeus is just going to let them be?

[shadowdemon_lord]

That's pretty tough, but if they come one by one (and don't shapechange into balors) you should be able to handle it. If they do shapechange into balors, call foul and just quit. At that point their's nothing you can really do anymore anyway. It seems like given a chance, these things would rather be attacking the person they're trying to kill then any other creature. So you're party could just start loading up on every single buff spell/ability known to man (or at least your characters) and just buff the intended target till he's unrecognisable. You'd also need to load up on good healing. While your doing this, the intended target would be throwing everything he's got at this Aleax. That is probably your best hope. Assuming the DM's any good at his job at being a DM, he'll try to make this battle an epic battle that you really did stand a good chance of losing, but somehow you just managed to pull through.

[WorthingSon]

Thanks for the ideas and thoughts. We play every Friday, so I'll update this post when something relevant happens.

As far as the shape change aspect, our DM is usually fairly reasonable. Granted he will do things like make them Huge Fire elementals to get out of a grapple, but that was because my character was simply pinning him and allowing his target to beat him to dust. So, we need lots of little ideas, or one or two absolutely ridiculous broken instant kill plans. I am less worried about my Aleax, as I have a godly Con and almost strait d12's for hit dice... so I actually should have significantly more HP than the Aleax does since it does not get Con to HP and only has d10 HD's. But I am worried about my Gloura friend's Aleax. He has a ridiculous AC (think 50's) and lots of cool tricks to use.

[Jack Mann]

It's a pity none of you are casters, or you could use disintegrate.

[Fishy]

Psychic reformation, grabbing as many exclusively anti-construct spells/powers/feats as you possibly can? The Aleax shows up, and both of you are optimized to destroy constructs- except that you're a construct and he isn't.

[NEO|Phyte]

Psychic reformation, grabbing as many exclusively anti-construct spells/powers/feats as you possibly can? The Aleax shows up, and both of you are optimized to destroy constructs- except that you're a construct and he isn't.

And the Aleax promptly uses its Shapechange to become something that isn't a construct, and you're at ground zero.

You also gain the type of the new form in place of your own.

[BardicDuelist]

How is it possible that they are only CR+3 when they have shapechange as an SLA? I mean, I know WotC can be bad at what they do, and I know that BoED isn't the most balanced book, but c'mon. This one was obvious, right? True Seeing, Fast Healing, SR, etc? Really, that is unbalanced on paper.

Reading the flavor and such, it seems to me that your DM will have the kill you and barter with the dieties that sent them for the dieties you have inside you, as per the Sudden Death description.

[Fishy]

Oh. Right, shapechange. Don't suppose you could grab that with Steal Spell-like Ability, could you?

^@BardicDuelist: In a way, it really doesn't matter what CR they are: given that the bonus for killing them is explicitly spelled out in the Sudden Death text, and that you face exactly one of them at a time, one-on-one. And given that this game is about the death of gods, maybe a TPK isn't inevitable here- The DM might be using them as reccurring villains/PC motivators. In which case the correct solution might be 'start running and never look back'.

[Mewtarthio]

Oh. Right, shapechange. Don't suppose you could grab that with Steal Spell-like Ability, could you?

I forget, can Spelltheives use their stealing powers on creatures immune to precision damage? Granted, the Aleax could shapechange into something that's vulnerable, but by then it may be too late (unless you steal the SLA and then the effect itself, but I'm not sure a Spelltheif 7 can do that).

[Fizban]

Not much to do in this situation. Hope that they come one at a time, or at least don't work together if they all come at once. Assuming they don't all come at the same time, and the aleax only attacks it's target, the aid of the rest of the party should be more than enough to swing it actually.

The key is making sure that the other party members can heal you and inderectly help you beat yourself+shapechange+fast healing-con score. Assuming it decides to come at you in humanoid form, if you've got a spell cast on you that'll pump your initiative, and go first, you might be able to grab an item of disintigrate off someone and end it quick. Otherwise, the party gets buffs that counter your own main attack form, and help you beat your own defenses. As long as you don't do it yourself, it's good.

The biggest problem I see is the utter cheese of shapechange. It doesn't make sense to me at all, and ruins the whole point of the aleax being you, but better. The poetic justice of beating someone at their own game is lost if it just shapechanges into a great wyrm gold dragon and roasts everyone. An antimagic field would at least protect you from the worst of that, but then it's got fast healing, and you don't (unless you do, but I doubt you do).

[CASTLEMIKE]

It really depends on if you encounter them separately or as a group.

If your PCs encounter each Aleax separately. They might be able to borrow gear or get spell buffs from other PCs to help tip the scale in favor of the PC combating the Aleax. They can't attack the Aleax but they can aid your PC and the Aleax shouldn't receive the benefits of those buffs or gear since he was already created at another time. If your PC wins he gets the Sudden Death benefits but your DM just may want to kill your PC in game to make the final bargain with the PC as per the sudden death text.

[Fishy]

I forget, can Spelltheives use their stealing powers on creatures immune to precision damage? Granted, the Aleax could shapechange into something that's vulnerable, but by then it may be too late (unless you steal the SLA and then the effect itself, but I'm not sure a Spelltheif 7 can do that).

Nope, you'll need a Demolition Crystal first, or a cleric who will prepare golemstrike and let you spellthieve it off him.

[Skjaldbakka]

You might not want to post the stats for the Aleax here. It might not be OGL.

How many PCs can cast spells and/or use magic device?

The rest of the party buffing you and providing aid another/flanking bonuses can be significant enough to turn the tide, if the buffs are good. Get a big single use anti-construct item to nail the first of them with (that strategy will probably only work once, since they can shapechange).

Are there spells/items that target polymorphed creatures? If there are, you could load up on those and also on anti-construct spells/items. They would either be polymorphed or type [construct] at any given time.

You could UMD an AMF, and then take feats to specialize in killing constructs.

[Fixer]

I have had characters beat Aleax before. The trick is to know your own character's weaknesses and strengths better than the GM.

For casters, force the Aleax to make concentration checks ALL THE TIME to prevent its spells from working. Because of their lack of a Con score, they only have the ranks. At lower levels that's a significant drop. At higher levels, well.. you are screwed. Sorry. You cannot summon anything to help. You are very unlikely to affect the Aleax directly with magic because of its spell resistance (unless you use instantaneous conjuration magic that ignores SR). Unless you can buff yourself into a virtual Tarrasque, you are pretty FUBAR'd. Hope that you can agree to whatever deal the diety that sent the Aleax has for you and get sent back.

For melee combatants, get dangerous weapons but have someone else carry it so that when the Aleax comes for you, it won't have a copy of the weapons and you can get them from your friend. Get a power similar to a mummy curse (not a disease as it is immune to those) that prevents natural healing as that will prevent the Fast Healing (as Fast Healing is classified as 'natural healing'). Get your friends to heal you while you beat the snot out of it with large blunt objects or sharp, pointy objects of your choice.

For precision combatants who are likely to get stuck alone, get a Tower Shield. It sounds strange, admittedly, but if you are behind the Tower Shield you have full cover and have blocked line of sight so you can hide provided you drop the shield before you move (put simply, you hide behind the shield and then it tips over and you are just not behind it any more). True seeing doesn't work on natural hiding skills. If you aren't stuck alone, just have a friend keep the Aleax flanked and you will get your precision damage and the Aleax will not. Have friends heal you.


The biggest strategy, if you haven't noticed, is to have friends. Friends are the best help against an Aleax because the Aleax are so single-minded. Friends who can buff, heal, flank, and Aid Attack can really boost your chances of survival.

[WorthingSon]

You might not want to post the stats for the Aleax here. It might not be OGL.


... removed, just in case.


Oh. Right, shapechange. Don't suppose you could grab that with Steal Spell-like Ability, could you?


I thought of that this morning on the way into work... great minds think alike... yet fools seldom differ. Yeah, I can steal it. The question becomes can I steal it from my allies' Aleaxes? I can't damage them... but that doesn't mean I can't steal from them (my interpretation... have not talked to the DM yet).

I can also take their True Seeing... but could my Aleax steal abilities back from me? I'll have to read into spellthief more.

[Fishy]

The question becomes can I steal it from my allies' Aleaxes? I can't damage them... but that doesn't mean I can't steal from them (my interpretation... have not talked to the DM yet).

I would say no- the rules say that no one but the target can hurt or hinder the Aleax, but your DM let you grapple with the earlier one, so who knows?


I can also take their True Seeing... but could my Aleax steal abilities back from me? I'll have to read into spellthief more.

Well, in order to do that, he needs to get a Sneak Attack off on you, and he has no allies to provide flanking... Wait, hang on. New plan:

1) Get rid of your ability to detect invisible creatures. Throw out your items, get a curse that affects constructs, etc, etc.
2) ??? (Find some way to deny the Aleax's dexterity bonus.)
3) Sneak Attack, and go for a Steal Spell-Like Ability: True Seeing.
4) Have a friend cast Greater Invisibility on you, proceed to stab your blind target repeatedly, until
5) The Aleax Shapechanges into something that has Blindsight.

Freakin' Shapechange.

[WorthingSon]

Just saw this while reasearching.... (on Steal Spell-like ablility)


can be of any level up to a maximum of one-third the spellthief’s class level


Shapechange is a 9th level spell... so that's not happening. However, I can take the effect a LOT sooner. So I can fight them on equal terms when it comes to that.

Also, for those of you who don't know/didn't notice I am a Dvoti... as in there are two of me. So I can flank the Aleaxes by myself (or selves). And I can cast Golem Strike (from spellthief not Dvoti). One of the Stances I took from Swordsage was Island of Blades, so flanking is not an issue usually.

[Eldritch_Ent]

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought Ale Axes were a new type iof weapon to be used in taverns while uproariously drunk. Possibly the favored weapons of an obscure drunken master-barbarian prestige class...

Oh how wrong I was. :smallfrown:

[Telonius]

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought Ale Axes were a new type iof weapon to be used in taverns while uproariously drunk. Possibly the favored weapons of an obscure drunken master-barbarian prestige class...

Oh how wrong I was. :smallfrown:

Hmm, though that gives me an idea. If somebody in the party has a good bluff check, you could recruit a bunch of dwarves to help you. Of course then there's the problem of escaping from them if you manage to win.

[Swooper]

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought Ale Axes were a new type iof weapon to be used in taverns while uproariously drunk. Possibly the favored weapons of an obscure drunken master-barbarian prestige class...

Oh how wrong I was. :smallfrown:
I was just waiting for someone to make a bad pun about beerswords or vodkaspears myself... :smalltongue:

[shadowdemon_lord]

Two of you? That's why you said two Aleaxes. Of course, you being a spell theif (and being able to do precision damage without flanking) SUCKS for you in this combat. Constructs don't take precision damage. All your SA dice will only work against you here, so suck. It's a good thing you have an ungodly con score and large hit dice :). You'd better figure out a way your character isn't going to take precision damage either. Still, your best bet is to make the entire party into buff monkeys/heal bots and give them weapons they would never use, but someone else in the party could. That way no matter which one comes first, you guys are prepared to pass off weapons and start the buffing process without the Aleax having said weapons. If the Aleax takes time to buff it's self, that's time you can beat on it without retaliation. Seriously if handled right the fights should be winnable (especially the other peoples, as doubtless your spelltheif UMD's things, and thus has access to virtually every buff in the game). Have fun, work as a team, make your Aleax beg for mercy :).

[WorthingSon]

Here is the porblem I see with the passing off weapons idea; of the three PC's I am the only one who uses a weapon. Each of my bodies wields a Large Bastard Sword (w00t 2d8!). The Tibbit uses his mind blade/bow and the Gloura uses unarmed attacks. Yes, I can hand off my weapons to the Gloura (not the tibbit, he is too small); but my DM would make SURE to force me into encounters where he was not arround or unable to pass me my swords.

Also, DM's call is that singular foe does NOT prevent me from stealing spells and spell effects etc. as a spell thief from my party members Aleaxes!

The only way I know of to protect me from the SA damage is to get heavy fortification... but that means that works both ways. And as casting Golem Strike is a swift action, i can do it every round and get my SA on my attacks. Plus if I go the Heavy Fort path, I will not be able to use my spell thief abilities to take his true sight and shapechange (effects, not the actual spell-like abilities).

[WorthingSon]

Ok, so we had two sessions over the weekend (thank you Veterans Day) and here is the new up to date status:

The followers of the new gods have been leading armies around the world (at least one army on each continent). The PC's led a group of the old god's followers on a covert mission into one of the opposing army's keeps. PC's were able to sneak into the back of the keep, and threw the keep to the main throne room (the keep was under assault from the rest of the rebellion’s forces which provided the distraction for us to slip in). Just outside the throne room we encountered the General of this army, a Half-Minotaur Half-Emerald Dragon Warhulk.

We defeated him, and used all of out healing to get ready to face whatever was in the next room (trust me, we needed to use it).

In the throne room we found one of the new gods (well his physical representation on this plane anyways). He was NOT the god that directly overthrew any of the PC's deities; however, he was allied with them.

During the combat, we were all thoroughly injured, and I lost one of my bodies (remember I'm a Dvati) to a Baleful Polymorph. I made the save to remember who I was, but I am still a Badger. We managed to defeat the god (was NOT planned to work out this way). When we defeated him, his body vanished in a flash of energy (effect to be determined). This was NOT the way it usually works. Normally if a god's physical manifestation is defeated the just disappear and show back up in 10 years.

I know (out of character) that we will be running into an Aleax within the next session or two. And my character is going to have his consciousness moved to the body of the defeated enemy general (w00t free LA's on one body).

As of now, we are ECL 12. The Tibbit is now also getting special traits from a Emerald-dragon (almost like a new class but the DM controls when it levels up)

[Telonius]

So, any chance of running into an aleax badger? :smallbiggrin:

[Lochar]

So, any chance of running into an aleax badger? :smallbiggrin:

Unfortunately it'd just shapechange into a balor.

As I can't remember about the aleax... Does their shapechange ability come with a set casterlevel, or is it off the HD? If so, at least you won't run into any uber high HD creatures.

[Illiterate Scribe]

On the subject of what Aleaxes can do, Anonymous Illiterate Scribe delivers:

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/iw/20030914a.

~ halfway down.

[WorthingSon]

Unfortunately it'd just shapechange into a balor.

As I can't remember about the aleax... Does their shapechange ability come with a set casterlevel, or is it off the HD? If so, at least you won't run into any uber high HD creatures.

As a 20th level Caster.

[Lochar]

Bleh. That sucks.


An aleax typically has one or two favored alternate forms reflective of the deity it serves. (For example, Bahamut's aleax has been known to take the form of a gold dragon.) The aleax retains its extraordinary and spell-like abilities regardless of the new form. Caster level 20th.

At least try to use that against the DM. Have him nail down the favored forms, so there's less chance of a random balor/solar being thrown at you.

[WorthingSon]

So, any chance of running into an aleax badger? :smallbiggrin:

lol, I doubt it. I was told by the DM to expect to get out of the badger body and into the Drinotaur (Half-Dragon/Half-Minotaur) by the end of next session. Although, I would not be suprised if it takes a nother half session to actually get it done (we always end up taking longer to do things than the DM expected).