Bladesinger Homebrew Rule

[Gale]

Hi, I was curious what people would think of this homebrew rule for Bladesingers. This would be edited into their "Training in War and Song" class feature.

"Choose one type of one-handed melee weapon. You gain proficiency with it if you don't already have it, and while wielding the weapon with one hand you may choose to use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls made with it."

I was inspired to make this rule after reading about Bladesingers in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. In it it's stated that since the inception of Bladesinging its identity has always been tied to the Longsword. I found this ironic since the Longsword lacks the Finesse property and the class itself heavily discourages you from building around strength. SCAG goes on to talk about individual styles of Bladesinging, and notably the one called Bird is known for using axes and hammers, which are also weapons without the finesse property. It seems odd to me that a subclass based around not wearing heavy armor or weapons, that relies purely on dexterity and cunning dance to survive, created by a race known for their agility, would ever encourage you to use strength-based weaponry. I know elves have also been known to be athletic too, and of course High Elves naturally get proficiency with longswords, but it seems much more thematic to have Bladesingers land strikes with pure finesse and technique than brute force.

I'm trying to consider if this homebrew would break anything or be overpowered. I think the most obvious concern is that it makes using a quarterstaff or spear more viable, meaning Polearm Master is a much more tempting option. I don't see PAM as terribly useful on its own however, since Bladesingers don't have innate access to Dueling and it's probably in their best interest to avoid having enemies approach them altogether. PAM & Warcaster together can be a bit ridiculous if your DM lets you cast any spell whenever PAM triggers an opportunity attack; but this combo works regardless of whether you can use dexterity with the quarterstaff or not.

The only other issue I can think of is that it would let you use dexterity with a lance; but this is only while mounted. Wizards don't have many good options for a mount, so this seems like a nonissue for the most part.

Anyways, what are other people's thoughts on this? I personally would love to have some more options available for my Bladesingers that aren't just rapier, scimitar, shortsword, and occasionally whip.

[Gignere]

Hi, I was curious what people would think of this homebrew rule for Bladesingers. This would be edited into their "Training in War and Song" class feature.

"Choose one type of one-handed melee weapon. You gain proficiency with it if you don't already have it, and while wielding the weapon with one hand you may choose to use Dexterity instead of Strength for attack and damage rolls made with it."

I was inspired to make this rule after reading about Bladesingers in Sword Coast Adventurer's Guide. In it it's stated that since the inception of Bladesinging its identity has always been tied to the Longsword. I found this ironic since the Longsword lacks the Finesse property and the class itself heavily discourages you from building around strength. SCAG goes on to talk about individual styles of Bladesinging, and notably the one called Bird is known for using axes and hammers, which are also weapons without the finesse property. It seems odd to me that a subclass based around not wearing heavy armor or weapons, that relies purely on dexterity and cunning dance to survive, created by a race known for their agility, would ever encourage you to use strength-based weaponry. I know elves have also been known to be athletic too, and of course High Elves naturally get proficiency with longswords, but it seems much more thematic to have Bladesingers land strikes with pure finesse and technique than brute force.

I'm trying to consider if this homebrew would break anything or be overpowered. I think the most obvious concern is that it makes using a quarterstaff or spear more viable, meaning Polearm Master is a much more tempting option. I don't see PAM as terribly useful on its own however, since Bladesingers don't have innate access to Dueling and it's probably in their best interest to avoid having enemies approach them altogether. PAM & Warcaster together can be a bit ridiculous if your DM lets you cast any spell whenever PAM triggers an opportunity attack; but this combo works regardless of whether you can use dexterity with the quarterstaff or not.

The only other issue I can think of is that it would let you use dexterity with a lance; but this is only while mounted. Wizards don't have many good options for a mount, so this seems like a nonissue for the most part.

Anyways, what are other people's thoughts on this? I personally would love to have some more options available for my Bladesingers that aren't just rapier, scimitar, shortsword, and occasionally whip.

Just roll for stats problem fixed.

[JackPhoenix]

There's no reason to buff bladesinger... a wizard subclass... even further. If you want to use non-finesse weapons with something other than Str, there are ways to do that. Or, as suggested, roll for your stats. Or get yourself gauntlets/belts to increase your Str.

I'm more concerned about the stupidity of bladesong ending when you grab your longsword with both hands for better control and leverage, but being perfectly fine when you sit on a horse with two lances. I was hoping TGtE to fix that part, but nope.

[Gale]

There's no reason to buff bladesinger... a wizard subclass... even further. If you want to use non-finesse weapons with something other than Str, there are ways to do that. Or, as suggested, roll for your stats. Or get yourself gauntlets/belts to increase your Str.

I'm more concerned about the stupidity of bladesong ending when you grab your longsword with both hands for better control and leverage, but being perfectly fine when you sit on a horse with two lances. I was hoping TGtE to fix that part, but nope.

Honestly, I don't think Bladesingers need any kind of buff, and if I were a designer for this game I would never think of suggesting this as an official rule. However, I do think this helps players adhere to the themes originally presented in SCAG without having to worry about strength. My concern was mostly with making my personal games with my friends more fun without breaking anything along the way.

Either way, I don't see this as much of a buff at all. As I said, the worst thing you could do with this is pick up Polearm Master. But even still the damage difference between using PAM and standard TWF is negligible at best. It's about an increase of 1 damage per round once you account for AC, to-hit, etc. PAM does less damage than increasing your Dexterity by +2. If we include PAM's opportunity attack than it still does more damage, (about 3 more damage.) But since a higher dexterity score means higher AC and less chances to get hit it's arguably still the better option. PAM only gets abusive if you have access to Dueling, but if you do have access to it then you probably have a level of Fighter meaning you could just prioritize strength, use Heavy Armor, and skip the whole song and dance altogether. It's also just hard to argue that PAM with Dueling is a better choice than Mobile, Warcaster, Tough, etc.

Lances are another story. I can definitely see an argument that maybe a Bladesinger with access to a good mount could get up to some grand shenanigans if they could finesse a Lance. But honestly, I think this requires enough planning, investment, and sacrifice that it doesn't particularly bother me. Any Bladesinger that chose Lance as their one dexterity weapon would be stuck using a dagger until they found something reliable to ride.

As for your point about using rolled stats I actually don't see how this alleviates anything. The average results of 4d6 drop the lowest are: 16, 14, 13, 12, 10 9. (Source) (https://anydice.com/articles/4d6-drop-lowest/)
So with a High Elf you could manage: 16 STR, 14 DEX, 14 CON, 14 INT, 10 WIS, 9 CHA.
It's perfectly playable but obviously worse than: 8 STR, 16 DEX, 14 CON, 16 INT, 12 WIS, 8 CHA. Which is what I got prioritizing dexterity and using standard point-buy.
Sure you could get lucky and roll amazing stats. But good luck isn't a great solution to a problem. Either way, you still get more value out of increasing dexterity than you do increasing strength, so in the long run a strength Bladesinger is always worse than a dexterity one.

[Gignere]

You just provided your own perfect justification for why it is unnecessary for this change. You can play a 14 strength, dex, int Bladesinger as you said it’s hardly any difference between a dex pumping and PAM so why worry about the +2 difference between allowing a BS going for strength instead of dex.

You just want to make optimizing easier but it’s not necessary to have a perfectly optimized character if you like the concept enough.

[Gale]

You just provided your own perfect justification for why it is unnecessary for this change. You can play a 14 strength, dex, int Bladesinger as you said it’s hardly any difference between a dex pumping and PAM so why worry about the +2 difference between allowing a BS going for strength instead of dex.

You just want to make optimizing easier but it’s not necessary to have a perfectly optimized character if you like the concept enough.

Generally speaking, I do think it's perfectly fine to build your character "suboptimally" if it means you'll have more fun with the concept. I just have difficulty accepting that being able to call your weapon a Longsword instead a Rapier is worth that.

A strength Bladesinger is simply M.A.D. and I don't think it's as much fun to play as the alternative. (But of course, your mileage may vary.) Regardless, I don't like seeing relatively simple character concepts hindered by the rules. As long as they're thematically fitting and a house rule doesn't break anything I would rather incorporate it than worry excessively about balance.

In my eyes Bladesingers are dexterous wizards who weave and dance their way through combat to strike down their enemies with nimble, precise hits. I don't really view them as strong characters who overwhelm their opponents' defenses with their raw strength. When I read the signature weapon of the Bladesinger was a longsword it didn't fit with my narrative, and that's why I wanted to try and fix it. Maybe my narrative is simply wrong, but I imagine other people view Bladesingers this way too and want their iconic weapon to be more readily usable.

I'm less concerned about optimization and more concerned about realizing the ideas myself and others have, as inspired by the text.

[plonk]

I think the rule is fine, not sure why everyone else here is mad about it. All you're really doing is allowing someone to reskin a rapier as a longsword or a hammer anyway. 1d8 is 1d8.

For the rest of your concerns, just limit it to non-PAM weapons, unless SCAG also has in-lore justifications for those. Even if so, Bladesingers are starved for ASIs. If someone wants to take PAM instead of getting +1 Int mod (which does like 7 different things for the Bladesinger), then so be it.

[Salmon343]

I think the rule is fine, not sure why everyone else here is mad about it. All you're really doing is allowing someone to reskin a rapier as a longsword or a hammer anyway. 1d8 is 1d8.

For the rest of your concerns, just limit it to non-PAM weapons, unless SCAG also has in-lore justifications for those. Even if so, Bladesingers are starved for ASIs. If someone wants to take PAM instead of getting +1 Int mod (which does like 7 different things for the Bladesinger), then so be it.
Agreed. I was initially against it, as bladesingers don't really need any kind of buff - but with the existence of rapiers, all this is just equivalent to a reskinning. The only advantage is the d10 die for a versatile weapon used in both hands, but that can't be done while in bladesong anyway.

As an aside, with the class feature variants to monk from Tasha's, this can be done with a 2 level monk dip, and selecting your weapon with the dedicated weapon feature.

[RSP]

I don’t see any issue, assuming wording is such that it only allows the weapons mentioned in the description of styles.

[Floorlock]

Oof. Some random replies in here. Not sure why this would be something that someone would so adamantly stand against. There's not even a whole lot of ground to hold there.

Personally, I long ago homebrewed Longswords to have the finesse property when wielded without another weapon or shield. This was done for a couple of reasons.

1. The image of a lone-longsword wielder is nearly THE most iconic fantasy image. It's kinda crazy to me that d&d doesn't have more options to emulate it.

2. Both the Race of Elves and the Class of Rogues get proficiency in longswords. Both of these options are usually represented as revolving around the dexterity stat, and yet they're given this weird sore thumb of a proficiency that sticks out as going against the grain of their natural rhythm.

I personally don't even think that it's that big of a deal that a Longsword gets a d10 over the Rapier's d8 in this regard. After playing this edition for 5 years...I just don't think it's enough of a difference to REALLY matter. Additionally, that d10 can only be achieved by foregoing a shield.
I should really even drop the caveat of not having another weapon or shield...because having the shield just makes it the same as a rapier, and the only way to have another weapon is by taking a somewhat subpar feat.

Regardless...I think it'll be fine to do this, and it very much does fit with their theme.

Personally, I've also homebrewed the bonus action of Polearm Master to require two hands to utilize. If you did the same, then the act of utilizing the feat would also cancel out the bladesong...cutting down a bit on those shenanigans.

Lances I suppose could also be a problem...
Maybe just add a section to the Bladesong where it now says:

You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon, or if you make an attack with a weapon that has the SPECIAL property.

Lol. It's not the most elegant solution...as you might as well just say "No lances allowed," but, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to prevent things from getting TOO crazy.

[WaroftheCrans]

Maybe just add a section to the Bladesong where it now says:

You can use a bonus action to start the Bladesong, which lasts for 1 minute. It ends early if you are incapacitated, if you don medium or heavy armor or a shield, if you use two hands to make an attack with a weapon, or if you make an attack with a weapon that has the SPECIAL property.

Lol. It's not the most elegant solution...as you might as well just say "No lances allowed," but, sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do to prevent things from getting TOO crazy.

Darn, there goes the net and cantrip build I was planning on. And it had such potential too. I could make full use of the net with none of the downsides. Alas, no more.

[JackPhoenix]

Darn, there goes the net and cantrip build I was planning on. And it had such potential too. I could make full use of the net with none of the downsides. Alas, no more.

You can, just don't use his proposed houserule. Simple.

[WaroftheCrans]

You can, just don't use his proposed houserule. Simple.

Tongue in cheek irony, I suppose I should have used blue text. Was just a comment poking fun on how this house rule did not only affect lances, but actually would stop a viable, if niche, strategy.

[JackPhoenix]

Tongue in cheek irony, I suppose I should have used blue text. Was just a comment poking fun on how this house rule did not only affect lances, but actually would stop a viable, if niche, strategy.

Yeah, internet, sacrasm, and all that. I got the impression that you thought that's how Tasha changed the original rule.

[Witty Username]

Rolled stats does help a bit. But it won't change the rapier being a best choice for a bladesinger, it might make the long sword as good but not better.
Importantly, Tasha's has set a precedent to adjust stats for flavor, theme and concept reasons. Making long swords able to use dex is perfectly within this line of reasoning.
As for power, bladesong makes things easier since its in built restrictions limit the power of the gained options. Power probably goes up minimally.

[Vogie]

The "Longsword change" is essentially making a Rapier that deals slashing damage - no big change there. Sure, they COULD use two hands for a damage boost, but they'd instantly lose their bladesong because that's restricted.

[Catullus64]

The only other issue I can think of is that it would let you use dexterity with a lance; but this is only while mounted. Wizards don't have many good options for a mount, so this seems like a nonissue for the most part.


The last words of someone run down by Phantom Steed lance cavalry. I want to play this now.

BTW, if for some reason your DM is a big stickler for Rules as Written and won't permit the proposed change, you could always dip three levels into Monk (Kensai) to be able to wield longswords with DEX. It's not even that bad of an investment, MAD as it is.

If this were a different edition, I would suggest just trying to get your hands on a Sun Blade or Moon Blade.

[RSP]

If this were a different edition, I would suggest just trying to get your hands on a Sun Blade or Moon Blade.

Sun Blade is still a viable option in 5e.

[Gignere]

Sun Blade is still a viable option in 5e.

So is moon blade they can get the finesse property.

[Catullus64]

Sun Blade is still a viable option in 5e.

I meant that this isn't an edition where players have any significant control over what magic items they get their hands on.