Monsters/creatures and weight

[KittenMagician]

I was just reading another thread and an argument started between 2 people that a grappler, as long as the size requirements are met, can carry/push/drag any creature since the grapple rules don't care about weight. By this very same logic you can fit an infinite number of creatures within a bag of holding (up to its maximum volume) with out caring about the creatures weight.

My question then is it necessary for there to be a weight stat in a monster's stat block? Or maybe a weight range?

My understanding of it all is that when a DM creates a character, monster or otherwise, the determine all aspects of the character, including coloration, clothing, name, weight, height, etc. It doesn't make sense to me for a character of any size or human levels of strength (20 or less) to be able to move a tarrasque, tromokratis (MOoT), or a warforged colossus (ERLW). I specify strength 20 or less as most characters can't get a greater strength except by special magic items, epic boons, or being a 20th level barbarian. Enlarge and the rune knight's ability don't increase the strength stat at all.

[Unoriginal]

I was just reading another thread and an argument started between 2 people that a grappler, as long as the size requirements are met, can carry/push/drag any creature since the grapple rules don't care about weight. By this very same logic you can fit an infinite number of creatures within a bag of holding (up to its maximum volume) with out caring about the creatures weight.

My question then is it necessary for there to be a weight stat in a monster's stat block? Or maybe a weight range?

My understanding of it all is that when a DM creates a character, monster or otherwise, the determine all aspects of the character, including coloration, clothing, name, weight, height, etc. It doesn't make sense to me for a character of any size or human levels of strength (20 or less) to be able to move a tarrasque, tromokratis (MOoT), or a warforged colossus (ERLW). I specify strength 20 or less as most characters can't get a greater strength except by special magic items, epic boons, or being a 20th level barbarian. Enlarge and the rune knight's ability don't increase the strength stat at all.

Moving someone around with the grappling and/or pushing special actions is not the same as carrying/dragging an inanimate object or creature.

Animated creatures moves by shifting their momentum one way or another, the grappling/pushing is just forcing them in the direction you want. So no, grappling and pushing do *not* care about weight or carrying capacities. However, they do care about size categories, so no Medium-sized human can move the Tarrasque that way, even if they got 30 STR.

Weight would matter if you want to carry/drag/move inanimate matter. Weight could be useful here but honestly I don't feel it is relevant enough it should be an info included in the statblock.


By this very same logic you can fit an infinite number of creatures within a bag of holding (up to its maximum volume) with out caring about the creatures weight.

I mean the whole point of the Bag of Holding is that it lets you not care about the weight, only the volume.


It doesn't make sense to me for a character of any size or human levels of strength (20 or less) to be able to move a tarrasque, tromokratis (MOoT), or a warforged colossus (ERLW).

Does it makes sense to you that a human can move large boulders with the power of their mind?

[KittenMagician]

Moving someone around with the grappling and/or pushing special actions is not the same as carrying/dragging an inanimate object or creature.

Animated creatures moves by shifting their momentum one way or another, the grappling/pushing is just forcing them in the direction you want. So no, grappling and pushing do *not* care about weight or carrying capacities. However, they do care about size categories, so no Medium-sized human can move the Tarrasque that way, even if they got 30 STR.

Weight would matter if you want to carry/drag/move inanimate matter. Weight could be useful here but honestly I don't feel it is relevant enough it should be an info included in the statblock.

Gargantuan has no upper bound for size. So a brontosaurus, an animated castle, and Godzilla are all just as gargantuan as each other. According to you a huge creature could grapple any of these and force them in any direction desired, regardless of strength. A huge creature with a strength of 1? Godzilla is grappled!




I mean the whole point of the Bag of Holding is that it lets you not care about the weight, only the volume.

A bag of holding does care about weight. Its limit is 500 lbs and 64 cubic feet. If creatures weigh nothing i could put a 840 lbs horse into my bag of holding (polymorphed first to fit through opening)


Does it makes sense to you that a human can move large boulders with the power of their mind?

we are not talking about magic or superpowers. Hafthor Bjornsson, arguably the strongest man in the world, could not lift, push, or carry a rhinoceros that did not want to have any of those done to it.

[Greywander]

Moving someone around with the grappling and/or pushing special actions is not the same as carrying/dragging an inanimate object or creature.

Animated creatures moves by shifting their momentum one way or another, the grappling/pushing is just forcing them in the direction you want. So no, grappling and pushing do *not* care about weight or carrying capacities. However, they do care about size categories, so no Medium-sized human can move the Tarrasque that way, even if they got 30 STR.

Weight would matter if you want to carry/drag/move inanimate matter. Weight could be useful here but honestly I don't feel it is relevant enough it should be an info included in the statblock.
This might be partially true, but in order to shift their weight so that they move where you want them to, you have to be strong enough to at least pull them off balance. I'll agree that it's probably a fair bit easier than dragging them, but weight and strength would still be a factor.

Also, some grapple builds use flight in order to weaponize fall damage. Grappling a creature and pulling them into the air would definitely care about weight. Arguably, since you're not on the ground, this would count as lifting, rather than dragging, meaning a 20 STR medium grappler would only be able to fly while grappling someone of 300 lbs or less.

It's also somewhat unclear how the half speed from grappling fits in with encumbrance. If weight doesn't matter, then perhaps the half speed is meant as an approximation of encumbrance from grappling. If weight does matter, then it might be possible for the half speed to stack with being encumbered if the creature you are grappling pushes you over your encumbrance limit. It does make sense that trying to control a creature that is actively resisting you would be more difficult and cause you to move more slowly, but the half speed might also be figuring in how the weight of the creature affects your encumbrance. RAW, you can definitely be encumbered just from your equipment, and then get your speed further reduced by grappling.

[Unoriginal]

Gargantuan has no upper bound for size. So a brontosaurus, an animated castle, and Godzilla are all just as gargantuan as each other. According to you a huge creature could grapple any of these and force them in any direction desired, regardless of strength. A huge creature with a strength of 1? Godzilla is grappled!

Well no, grappling requires you to beat the opponent's STR (Athletics) or DEX (Acrobatics) with your own STR (Athletics). So a STR 1 creature is unlikely to do it.

Also keep in mind that it's the DM who decides if something is possible or not, if it's an auto-success, an auto-fail, or if a roll is needed.




A bag of holding does care about weight. Its limit is 500 lbs and 64 cubic feet. If creatures weigh nothing i could put a 840 lbs horse into my bag of holding (polymorphed first to fit through opening)

My bad, I forgot that limitation.

And no, it's not that creatures weight nothing, obviously not.



we are not talking about magic or superpowers. Hafthor Bjornsson, arguably the strongest man in the world, could not lift, push, or carry a rhinoceros that did not want to have any of those done to it.

Good thing that a 20 STR D&D character is not Hafthor Bjornsson.

The Guy at the Gym fallacy is just that, a fallacy. D&D characters are *not* real life people, real life people are not D&D characters, and anyone with STR 20 is, in fact, superpower-strong.

In fact a STR 20 D&D human has the same STR mod as the rhinoceros.


This might be partially true, but in order to shift their weight so that they move where you want them to, you have to be strong enough to at least pull them off balance. I'll agree that it's probably a fair bit easier than dragging them, but weight and strength would still be a factor.

Which is why grappling and pushing are a STR (Athletics) check and why size categories matter.

But "a factor" is not the same as "make it impossible".



Also, some grapple builds use flight in order to weaponize fall damage. Grappling a creature and pulling them into the air would definitely care about weight. Arguably, since you're not on the ground, this would count as lifting, rather than dragging, meaning a 20 STR medium grappler would only be able to fly while grappling someone of 300 lbs or less.

That probably depends on the specifics of the flying method the grappler is using, I would say.



It's also somewhat unclear how the half speed from grappling fits in with encumbrance. If weight doesn't matter, then perhaps the half speed is meant as an approximation of encumbrance from grappling. If weight does matter, then it might be possible for the half speed to stack with being encumbered if the creature you are grappling pushes you over your encumbrance limit. It does make sense that trying to control a creature that is actively resisting you would be more difficult and cause you to move more slowly, but the half speed might also be figuring in how the weight of the creature affects your encumbrance. RAW, you can definitely be encumbered just from your equipment, and then get your speed further reduced by grappling.

It is true you can be both encumbered by what you carry, then further limited by moving the grappled foe, but nowhere in the book is implied that the weight of the foe affects you in other ways than your halved speed.