Int-Based/Elegant Fighter in 3.5e?

[Weasel of Doom]

Hi all,

I'm helping my gf make a character for our new 3.5e campaign and I was hoping for some build advice.

She wants to be an elf and she's got the idea of playing something like a cross between a (former) lady-in-waiting, a (failed) bodyguard and a samurai (turned ronin). Essentially a minor elven noble that served as the bodyguard for a higher status princess, she was expected to be a deadly fighter as well as educated and graceful enough to carry herself among the rest of the courtiers. Due to some dastardly scheme or another her charge is killed, the family she served destroyed and the character flees in shame at her failure to live up to her duty.
Combat-wise she wants to be a deadly melee fighter but her style should be focused on skill and technique over brute power or sneaky backstabbing.

Rest of the party will be my buff/debuff-focused transmuter human wizard and a half-ogre monk/cleric/sacred fist (with lost CL as per the table).
Campaign expected to go from 4th level to 20th (or close to it).
GM is usually pretty good at balancing disparate power levels but I want to make it as easy for him as possible.

With all that in mind I wanted to make her some sort of lightly armoured, melee fighter with enough skillpoints to fit her educated background (and supply the party with it's needed skillmonkey) but I'm not sure how to go about it.
My first thought is just straight warblade - elegant/skillful combat is pretty much perfectly covered by iron heart and diamond mind and while 4 skillpoints isn't great warblades do have some synergy with above-average int so that'll help. To get more skillpoints I could start dipping around and try to make int and/or dex a primary stat - something like Swashbuckler 3/Kung-fu genius monk 1/Factotum 3/Drow Hit and Run Sneak Attack Thug Fighter 1 / Warblade X but that's messy and I'm not sure it'd be worth it. Right now I'm leaning towards a compromise - factotum 4/warblade 16.

Next, what weapon should she use?
IMO a single rapier is probably what she has in mind but that's hard to make work. Aesthetically a polearm or spiked chain is right out. A pair of elven lightblades is probably the next most appropriate to her background but most of the Diamond Mind+Iron Heart manoeuvres (which are the two disciplines that scream 'skillful combatant' to me) don't gain anything from TWF and she won't have a source of extra damage like sneak attack. On the other hand Tiger Claw works with TWF and seems to have the most manoeuvres useable with a bow - an elf ought to have at least some archery skill. Of course THF is the default for a reason, and a katana-styled greatsword isn't entirely inappropriate style-wise.

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On a related topic: Can anyone suggest fun, flavourful but weaker than average wizard prestige classes? I hate not getting class features. I want to go IotSFV but a PrC that drops a caster level or two for some cool flavour might suit the party better.

[A.A.King]

How familiar is your girlfriend with D&D and how powerful does she want to be?

I always find the Bard class oddly suited for a noble, especially when combined with the Snowflake Wardance feat. A dance-like fighting style must be quite elegant and a noble really should know how to dance so you might as well benefit from it.

Snowflafe Wardance for Charisma to ATK combined with Inspire Courage and a Crystal Echoblade for 1/2 Bard level to damage when attacking can be quite decent at melee, but it will not be easy to match the power of maneuvers with a bard.

[Doctor Despair]

Knowledge Devotion used on a Factotum fits the idea of an int-based fighter.

[Troacctid]

Warblade could definitely work, as could swordsage. You might also look at psychic rogue, which has a lot of powers that improve mobility and grace, or duskblade, which is actually written to be an elven blade-dancer archetype.

[Biggus]

On a related topic: Can anyone suggest fun, flavourful but weaker than average wizard prestige classes? I hate not getting class features. I want to go IotSFV but a PrC that drops a caster level or two for some cool flavour might suit the party better.

You might want to have a look here: http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0

It doesn't have all the 3E prestige classes but it does have a lot of them. Have a look at the "mediocre" classes, they don't make you singificantly stronger, but they don't make you significantly weaker either.

[rrwoods]

Eternal Blade honestly seems great here?

[Palanan]

Originally Posted by Doctor Despair
Knowledge Devotion used on a Factotum fits the idea of an int-based fighter.

If you have the feats to spare, Education is a nice setup for Knowledge Devotion. The version from Player's Guide to Faerûn is the one to get--all Knowledges as class skills and a +2 untyped bonus on any two of them.

[Doctor Despair]

If you have the feats to spare, Education is a nice setup for Knowledge Devotion. The version from Player's Guide to Faerûn is the one to get--all Knowledges as class skills and a +2 untyped bonus on any two of them.

With a DFA dip, you can get a +6 untyped bonus to all knowledge, too, with an invocation

A one-level dip into Ardent for the Knowledge mantle can get you an untyped +5 on the Knowledge Devotion check

Urban Savant and Archivist give new modes to knowledge checks, too, for combat buffs. I'm working on a build along those lines, but that's less fighter-y and more bard-y

[Weasel of Doom]

How familiar is your girlfriend with D&D and how powerful does she want to be?
Fine with how to play, less so with character design. We've been playing together for a while and she's got a good head for managing tactics or running complex characters but she only knows what we've played - she's not been reading through CO guides or WOTC's back catalogue to know all the options out there.
As for power - reasonably strong within the limits of the rest of the party. The monk/cleric/sacred fist will be 3 caster levels down from his monk dip and prestige class (and LA until it's bought off) and he won't be DMM-persisting divine might but he'll be fairly optimised otherwise. My wizard will likely end up fairly optimised but focused on supporting the others with buffs/debuffs/BFC.


Bard with snowflake wardance
That could work and I love bards as a class but she played a snowflake wardancing bard/battlehowler of Gruumsh in our last evil campaign. Very different style (a roaring, raging half-orc brute) but crunch (snowflake wardance, echoblade, inspire courage) might be too similar.


Knowledge Devotion used on a Factotum fits the idea of an int-based fighter
My thoughts exactly, at least one level of factotum at 1st would give her the skill points feed knowledge devotion, iaijutsu focus and UMD (the latter being the result of growing up in a high-magic elven court). Unfortunate she won't be able get Able Learner to keep the skills in-class.
Is factotum 4 / warblade 16 with knowledge devotion better than swashbuckler 3 / carmendine monk 1 though?


... Education ...
Perfect. That solves part of the no Able Learner problem.


psychic rogue ... duskblade
Hmmm, I hadn't considered psychic rogue. I'll take a look at that. My concern with duskblade is the lack of skillpoints. 4+int of a warblade or swashbuckler is already pushing it and I don't want her to be unable to contribute outside of combat - I doubt the campaign's going to be a straight dungeon crawl.


Eternal blade?
In fluff and combat style absolutely perfect. Even looks like one of the more archer-friendly Tome of Battle builds.
My concern is the same as duskblade - 2+int skill points and being useful outside of combat.

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http://minmaxforum.com/index.php?topic=1573.0
Exactly what I was just looking at, although I was looking at the -1 classes rather than the +0 ones - there are some rubbish prestige classes out there, not just weaker than straight wizard but not interesting enough to make up for it (looking at you Argent Savant).
The +0 list is more interesting. Dread Witch and Stormcaster have some style.

[A.A.King]

If she just played a bard than that would indeed probably be a bad fit.

If you are looking for a katana-styled greatsword, then I suggest looking no further than the "Elven Courtblade" from races of the wild. It's It's a two-handed weapon that counts as a greatword for the Weapon Focus line of feats BUT you can use your DEX to attack with it if you have the Weapon Finesse feat.

If you play with the houserule that all races get to threat race-based weapons like the Elven Courtblade as martial weapons rather than exotic weapons (similar to what dwarfs get to do with the dwarven core weapons) than she can just use it, otherwise she'd have to spend a feat on the Improved Weapon Familiarity feat (which may be hard to fit in if you don't play with flaws).

The great thing about a finessable two handed weapon is that it opens up Power Attack. In the hands of a melee brute power attacking is nothing more than putting more brute force behind a swing. In the hands of a finesse fighter however, the art of trading in accuracy for more damage can be seen as a called shot; hitting a specific weak spot you noticed isn't always easy but if you hit the extra damage you do will be worth it.

The ultimate power attacking feat, Shocktrooper, does not actually have a minimum STR requirement. Only it's prerequisite feats (Power Attack & Improved Bullrush) usually require the character to have a minimum STR of 13. I say usually, because there are work arounds. I am specifically thinking of a Monk of the Overwhelming Attack. The Overwhelming Attack is a alternate monk fighting style from the SRD that replaces your 1st and 2nd Monk Bonus Feat with Power Attack & Improved Bull Rush ignoring prerequisites. Improved Bull Rush would be largely useless on a character with 10 STR but having it would allow her to pick up Shock Trooper at level 9 (the monk dip makes having BAB +6 at level 6 impossible).

Warblade 1 / Monk 2 / Warblade +1 (2)

Feats
Lv1. Kung Fu Genius / Carmedine Monk (one or the other for INT to AC)
Lv1. Improved Weapon Familiarity (Either given for free as a houserule to all races or taken with a flaw)
Lv2. Power Attack (Monk of the Overwhelming Attack bonus feat)
Lv3. Weapon Finesse
Lv3. Improved Bull Rush (Monk of the Overwhelming Attack bonus feat)

INT to AC, DEX to ATK with the TH Elven Courtblade, the ability to Power Attack and access to the Emerald Razor maneuver for touch attack Power Attacks every other round.

[Gruftzwerg]

Deepwyrm Half-Drow Fighter 1(+?) / Warblade X / + Shadow Blade feat (enter via Martial Study or a dip into Swordsage)

Shadow Blade weapons include short swords and thus should fit the elegant theme. It adds Dex to weapon damage and can be combined with Hit and Run Fighter (when the enemy is flat-footed) for a total of 2x DEX modifier to your damage.

Use a Drow House Insignia with the Ice Slick spell (like grease but 20ft radius) to make your enemies flat-footed. Or buy yourself a Collar of Perpetual Attendance to have a permanent unseen servant that drops the marbles for you into the enemies space.

[ShurikVch]

There are the two PrC:
Darkrunner (Lords of Madness) at 8th level got Int to damage while on difficult terrain; 6+ skill points; required Darkvision, Alertness, Track, Knowledge (dungeoneering) 5, Search 5, Survival 7, and membership in Darkrunner Guild
Iaijutsu Master (Oriental Adventures) Int to AC (if unarmored), finesse-able katana, two attacks as a standard action, and ensured surprise round vs those who start combat withing your melee range; 4+ skill points; Lawful alignment, BAB 6+, Iaijutsu Focus 9, Improved Initiative, Quick Draw, and Weapon Focus (Katana)

[gorfnab]

Here is my usual recommendation for an Int/Dex based fighter build. Human or Strongheart Halfling can be replaced by Elf with a flaw (or two for yet another feat).

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Swashbuckler - Deadly Defense (CS), Combat Expertise, B: Weapon Finesse
2. Cobra Strike (UA) Decisive Strike (PHBII) Monk - B: Dodge
3. Cobra Strike (UA) Monk - Carmendine Monk (CoV), B: Mobility
4. Swashbuckler
5. Swashbuckler
6. Thief Acrobat - Combat Reflexes
7. Thief Acrobat
8. Thief Acrobat
9. Thief Acrobat - Einhander (PHBII)
10. Thief Acrobat or Warblade
11. Warblade or Duelist
12. Warblade or Duelist - Ironheart Aura (ToB)
13. Duelist
14. Duelist
15. Duelist - Robilar's Gambit (PHBII)
16. Duelist
17. Duelist
18. Duelist - Stormgaurd Warrior (ToB)
19. Duelist
20. Duelist

This build uses a number of the options mentioned in this handbook: A short guide to defensive fighting
(https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?178445-A-short-guide-to-defensive-fighting)
Levels 10 through 12 can be rearranged depending on your needs. The current setup gives you Improved Evasion and Uncanny Dodge at these levels. However, if you don't need Improved Evasion take one less level of Thief Acrobat and move the first level of Warblade to level 10. If you don't need Uncanny Dodge don't take the 2nd level of Warblade and instead go into Duelist a level early. If you don't need either ability, take Warblade at level 10 and enter Duelist at level 11.

If flaws are available, choose two and then grab the feats EWP: Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv, pre-errata version if possible) and Versatile Unarmed Strike (PHBII). If traits are available pick up Cautious (UA).

Items:
Vest of Defense (MIC)
Bracers of Blocking (Dragon 322)
Broadblade Shortsword (CAdv) (pre-errata version if possible) or Rapier with the Defensive Surge (MIC) enhancement.

[Anthrowhale]

Scout 3/Ranger 1/Scout 1/Ranger n might fit the concept. Normally you think of Ranger as Wisdom-focused, but you can remove that by making them Spell-less (CW 13) or using Champion of the Wild (CC 50). Between Swift Hunter (@level 5) and Improved Skirmish (@level 6), you can do some significant damage. Picking the right favored enemies will allow skirmish to apply generally. Triggering skirmish reliably is slightly tricky, but Anklets of Translocation are cheap, and there are a couple ways to get a 10' step instead of a 5' step. Alternatively, a level in barbarian grants pounce.

You end up at level 20 with many skill points, skirmish+7d6, and BAB 19. With Education @1 and Knowledge Devotion @3, you are already starting strong at level 4. A Ranger can trade Ride for Tumble using the Skilled City-Dweller option. You can plausibly keep 6 Knowledges, Spot, Listen, and Tumble at full rank.

[liquidformat]

So here are a couple different ideas.

Swashbuckler 15/Rogue 3/Swordsage 2; two weapon fighting + gloves that give improved two weapon fighting, craven, knowledge devotion, darkstalker, shadowblade taking swordsage after level 8. This fits int-based fighter quite well but is pretty low op.

Rogue 5/Assassin 9/Swordsage 1/Unseen Seer 1/Nightsong Enforcer 4, higher op lots of skills, magic, and int focused casting

Duskblade with knowledge devotion, focus skill points in knowledges, sense motives, concentration, tumble and a couple into decipher script. More of a bookworm who doesn't take any BS.

again melee bard is a pretty easy way to play this

[Buddy76]

Have a look at the Elven Courtblade (Races of the Wild page 166). It's a exotic nonlight two-handed weapon that the text explicitly says can be used with Weapon Finesse. Now you can have a finesse fighter with access to high damage power attack shenanigans. If the build is starved for feats, a level o exoticist fighter (that can be combined if the Drow Fighter acf) should do it.

Complete Warrior has a feat called Combat Insight that allows you to use your Int modifier instead of your strength modifier when wielding a melee weapon. Technically, it's a epic feat but it requires BAB +15, Combat Expertise and Epic Prowess and only the last one is really epic. Seeing as it's a pretty unremarkable feat, see if your GM is willing to drop the Epic Prowess requirement and just make it a normal feat (I would also drop the BAB requirement to a +7 or smh, but that's bending the rules a little more).

Lastly, you asked about good caster prcs that are not overpowered. I like Urban Savant myself. You get to make knowledge checks to, basically, take a lot at the enemy's character sheet and grant your allies a damage boost against said enemy. Plus you get Int+6 skills. 7 levels is all you really need, but you can take it up to 9 without losing caster levels.

[Wildstag]

One build I've been tossing around the idea for lately is a Swashbuckler/InvisBlade build, partially because it gives Int to melee weapon damage and Int to Armor Class (while wearing no armor and using a dagger).

If daggers aren't their cup of tea, then it wouldn't fit, but it's definitely a way to get maximum efficiency out of your Intelligence modifier. And if the character has a higher Int than Dex, they might even be able to pick up Insightful Reflexes for more efficiency.

P.S. For the Int bonus that may get more mileage for the character, also go Moon Elf for the +2 int, since the -2 Strength means you break even on melee damage but also gain the additional usefulness of the AC from Int.

[gorfnab]

One build I've been tossing around the idea for lately is a Swashbuckler/InvisBlade build, partially because it gives Int to melee weapon damage and Int to Armor Class (while wearing no armor and using a dagger).
Here's my version.

Human or Strongheart Halfling
1. Rogue - Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Craven (CoR), Far Shot, 2x Flaws
2. Swashbuckler - B: Weapon Finesse
3. Rogue - Two Weapon Fighting
4. Rogue - Penetrating Strike ACF (DS)
5. Swashbuckler - Arcane Stunt ACF (CM)
6. Swordsage - B: Weapon Focus: Shadow Hand weapons, Shadowblade (ToB)
7. Swashbuckler - (For Insightful Strike)
8. Fighter - Targeteer ACF (DragMag 310) {Vital Aim}, Hit-and-Run Tactics ACF (DotU - if your DM is lenient and lets it mix with Targeteer),
9. Fighter - Targeteer ACF - Rapid Shot, Improved Two Weapon Fighting
10. Swordsage - (for Assassins Stance)
11. Master Thrower - B: Quick Draw, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Palm Throw}
12. Master Thrower - Dead Eye (DragMag 304)
13. Master Thrower - {Thrown Weapon Trick: Two With One Blow}
14. Master Thrower - B: Snatch Arrows
15. Master Thrower - B: Improved Critical, Greater Two Weapon Fighting, {Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot}
16. Invisible Blade
17. Invisible Blade
18. Invisible Blade - Improved Precise Shot
19. Invisible Blade
20. Invisible Blade

*If you don't want or need Improved Precise Shot, you could potentially change the feat order by taking Rapid Shot at 9th level and take the Arrow Swarm ability of Targeteer. This moves Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 15th level and Great Improved Two Weapon Fighting to 18th. While this will make you initially a bit less effective in melee and range, once you hit 15th level it basically evens out especially when considering the Thrown Weapon Trick: Weak Spot.*

For throwing builds you need to look into ways to either carry enough daggers (not so good option) or magically generate an infinite supply of daggers (better option). There are three items that can work well for dagger throwing builds with some minor DM tweaking. The first is the Gloves of Endless Javelins (MIC). The main change being changing the javelins to daggers (with maybe a corresponding change in damage from d6 to d4). The second item is the Gauntlet of Infinite Blades (MIC). It can produce daggers, but only 1 per round because of its Swift action activation. The change here would be changing Swift action to Free action. The third item is the Quiver of Anariel, posted in the spoiler below. The change here would be "quiver" to "bandoleer" and "arrow(s)" to "dagger(s)".

Quiver of Anariel

Quiver of Anariel:Quivers of Anariel appear to be typical arrow containers capable of holding a score of arrows. However, the quivers automatically replenish themselves with standard or magical arrows, such that they are always full. Some quivers also create arrows made of special materials, such as adamantine, cold iron, or alchemical silver.

Once an arrow is taken from the quiver, it must be used within 1 round or it vanishes.

Moderate conjuration; CL 7th; Craft Wondrous Item, magic weapon, minor creation; Price 28,000 gp (standard arrows), 29,000 gp (masterwork arrows), 32,000 gp (+1 arrows), 44,000 gp (+2 arrows), 64,000 gp (+3 arrows), 92,000 gp (+4 arrows), 128,000 gp (+5 arrows); Add an additional +6,000 gp for adamantine arrows, +4,005 gp for cold iron arrows, or +200 gp for alchemical silver arrows; Weight 1 lb.

Thankfully the article is saved here https://web.archive.org/web/20070401150041/http:/ww2.wizards.com/Books/Wizards/?doc=fr_lonedrowstats since WOTC decided to delete the original posting.


Other magic items you may want to look into:
Rogue's Vest (MIC)
Collar of Umbral Metamorphosis (ToM)
Bracers of the Hunter (SoX)

[Weasel of Doom]

I wanted to thank everybody who's given advice. She still hasn't made up her mind but it's been really helpful.

That's what I love about 3.5 - the system gives you the flexibility to approach one archetype so many different ways.

[Gruftzwerg]

I wanted to thank everybody who's given advice. She still hasn't made up her mind but it's been really helpful.

That's what I love about 3.5 - the system gives you the flexibility to approach one archetype so many different ways.

Agreed. I also like the flexibility of 3.5 <3


Btw, I think Champion of Corellon Larethian hasn't been mentioned so far. Can get DEX to exotic elven swords and is knight themed (mounted).

[liquidformat]

Agreed. I also like the flexibility of 3.5 <3


Btw, I think Champion of Corellon Larethian hasn't been mentioned so far. Can get DEX to exotic elven swords and is knight themed (mounted).

It's also kind of a horrible PRC. Prerequisite feats are Combat Expertise , Dodge , Mounted Combat , Martial Weapon Proficiency Armor Proficiency (heavy) and , ( Weapon Focus (longsword) Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven thinblade) or Exotic Weapon Proficiency (elven courtblade) ). You are looking at sinking 4 feats in that don't have much commonality between them for a return of one feat at level one related to Combat Expertise , Dodge , Mounted Combat and dex to damage at level 2. Also anything immune to crits ignores that extra damage from your dex. The PRC is pretty worthless after level 2.

[Morty_Jhones]

If she dosn't mid being the weak kitten of the group, you could look at some levels in the Aristocrat class.

only mideling BAB, and save progreshion, but Good skills points and almost everything is a class skill, also class levels stack with the leadership feat so npc hirlings/interactions will be a breaze.

[Thurbane]

Very sub-optimal, but Monk + Kung Fu Genius + Whirling Steel Strike + Swashbuckler 3 = Int based swordsman. You could take the rest of the levels as Warblade.

I wouldn't recommend this for a new-ish player though.

[ChudoJogurt]

My go-to for Int based fighteroids is to ask the DM to permit Kung Fu Genius on Swordsage.

If this is considered kosher, you can either go full Swordsage (quite respectable Tier 3 class) or combine Swordsage with Swashbuckler/Rogue Daring Outlaw (something ugly like Swash2/Swsg 2/Swash 1/Rogue 3/Swsg 3/Factotum 3/Eternal Blade 6) for a bit more straight damage and skills, while still cherrypicking manevuers to get Assassins stance and Shadow Blade.
Tuned to taste.

[Sam K]

Bardblade (bard 4/warblade 16), skip snowflake wardance, you're there for dragonfire inspiration (or if that's too cheesy, just the regular buff songs) and some skills. Also works pretty well with knowledge devotion. But honestly, warblade 20 is pretty good for a experienced player that's not super-familar with optimization. It's hard to screw up, especially if you focus on diamond mind.

If the DM is ok with refluffing, the tiger claw (or whatever it's named) school has some great maneuvers for agile fighters: you're dual wielding, jumping all across the place, getting extra attacks. Just re-fluff the bestial lore, and maybe not take the maneuvers where you rip someones spine out and beat them to death with it - alternatively, if she can pull that off in a refined, dignified, lady-like fashion, marry her! This also opens up dual wielding without being completely locked into high dex.

I can see a way to make a pole-arm work for her concept though: imagine pole-arm refluffed as a steel fighting fan (tessen ) on a pole. There's plenty of cultural references to powerful people being fanned by their servants, and it would have given her an interesting cover. She's just a humble servant fanning her mistress, until danger approaches and then she slices at the would-be assassins with her deadly, pole-arm mounted steel fan. Opens up the traditional optimization of power attack on a twohanded weapon, as well. Plus her battle-cry can be "I'M A HUGE FAN!"

Granted, the usefulness of a fighting fan in actual combat is disputed, but this is D&D! Just say a wizard did it or something.

[Iamyourking]

A polearm isn't inherently unfeminine or inelegant anyway, you can always take inspiration from Japanese Naginata Fencing.

[Rebel7284]

Factotum 8/Warblade 12 is nice. That second standard action is real nice.