Crackpot Theory- All the Main Villains Just Disintegrated Themselves

[Ajustusdaniel]

Now, I know you may be thinking, "What? No they didn't." "It's pretty clearly set up that this is some sort of teleportation/interdimensional shenanigan." "Your theory is bad and you should feel bad." "DO YOU EVEN STORY STRUCTURE, BRO?!"

But bear with me- what if they did? What would the implications of that be?

Well, from an in-universe perspective- Great News, tempered with some bad. The good- the world is saved, in the short term. No threat to the final gate, no chance of the Ritual being used to point a gun on the Gods' heads, no reason to destroy the world. So far so good.

Of course, it also means there's no longer a cleric capable of casting a ninth level divine spell with purple quiddity, so the Snarl still hangs over the world as a potential threat. And given the rifts currently loose, attention is going to be pointed at them, the Snarl, and eventually, the remaining gate.

So short term, the party needs to defend the gates, while long term, they need there to be a high level goblin cleric that's willing to cooperate with the other pantheons. Which means that the world will be saved, in the end, not by the dashing heroics of Roy Gbiv Greenhilt, but by the difficult, fingernail pulling process of building trust and peace between two deeply embittered peoples.

I expect OotS 2: Diplomatic Boogaloo will run for decades. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and at some point, Belkar will either die or acquire a template which grants Breathless (Su) and Despises Cake (SLA).

[Fyraltari]

What? No they didn't. It's pretty clearly set up that this is some sort of teleportation/interdimensional shenanigan. Your theory is bad and you should feel bad. DO YOU EVEN STORY STRUCTURE, BRO?!

[Ajustusdaniel]

What? No they didn't. It's pretty clearly set up that this is some sort of teleportation/interdimensional shenanigan. Your theory is bad and you should feel bad. DO YOU EVEN STORY STRUCTURE, BRO?!

Fair points.

[Darth Paul]

Fair points.

Persuasively made, as well! And I'll bet the author (whomever that may be) is possessed of a razor wit, too!! :smallamused:

I think it's most likely that Team Evil, lacking any Rogue component in their membership, just walked over the exact same trap they've walked over with every door they've entered, and passed through a Dimension Door or some similar gateway leading to the dungeon encounters, while Haley & the OOTS have found the secret pathway leading to Serini's Gate. And possibly to Serini herself.

I haven't been following the discussion thread, but I'm willing to bet Infinity-1 quatloos that I'm not the only one who has had this thought. Particularly since people were predicting something like it for months before this strip came out, so I'm also placing a side bet on the number of "Told you so!"s.

[Metastachydium]

I think it's most likely that Team Evil, lacking any Rogue component in their membership, just walked over the exact same trap they've walked over with every door they've entered, and passed through a Dimension Door or some similar gateway leading to the dungeon encounters, while Haley & the OOTS have found the secret pathway leading to Serini's Gate. And possibly to Serini herself.

I haven't been following the discussion thread, but I'm willing to bet Infinity-1 quatloos that I'm not the only one who has had this thought. Particularly since people were predicting something like it for months before this strip came out, so I'm also placing a side bet on the number of "Told you so!"s.

Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that „all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue” would be a horrible defense.

[Precure]

Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that „all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue” would be a horrible defense.

Considering how she handled the secret information regarding the gates, Serini was a horrible defender.

[Metastachydium]

Considering how she handled the secret information regarding the gates, Serini was a horrible defender.

…
…
Damn. That's a good point.
Still, I strongly hope she's not this dumb.

[Ajustusdaniel]

Considering how she handled the secret information regarding the gates, Serini was a horrible defender.

Counterpoint- given tat all the main villains just disintegrated themselves walking across a line on the floor, she's a fantastic defender.

[denthor]

Now, I know you may be thinking, "What? No they didn't." "It's pretty clearly set up that this is some sort of teleportation/interdimensional shenanigan." "Your theory is bad and you should feel bad." "DO YOU EVEN STORY STRUCTURE, BRO?!"

But bear with me- what if they did? What would the implications of that be?

Well, from an in-universe perspective- Great News, tempered with some bad. The good- the world is saved, in the short term. No threat to the final gate, no chance of the Ritual being used to point a gun on the Gods' heads, no reason to destroy the world. So far so good.

Of course, it also means there's no longer a cleric capable of casting a ninth level divine spell with purple quiddity, so the Snarl still hangs over the world as a potential threat. And given the rifts currently loose, attention is going to be pointed at them, the Snarl, and eventually, the remaining gate.

So short term, the party needs to defend the gates, while long term, they need there to be a high level goblin cleric that's willing to cooperate with the other pantheons. Which means that the world will be saved, in the end, not by the dashing heroics of Roy Gbiv Greenhilt, but by the difficult, fingernail pulling process of building trust and peace between two deeply embittered peoples.

I expect OotS 2: Diplomatic Boogaloo will run for decades. :smallbiggrin:

Oh, and at some point, Belkar will either die or acquire a template which grants Breathless (Su) and Despises Cake (SLA).


Welcome to the playground. Crack pot theory is required for enty.

[hroþila]

Yes, this theory keeps coming up, and I happen to be one of the folks who keep pointing out that „all the doors lead to the Gate if one has a rogue” would be a horrible defense.
It wouldn't make a lot of sense if this was the only defense, but I don't see any reason why just any rogue would do.

[Metastachydium]

It wouldn't make a lot of sense if this was the only defense,

Well, if there are two corridors behind each door, the second of which can only be accessed if the trap is disarmed, and only one of the secondary corridors (which are guarded) leads to the Gate, it's clever. That's not what I'm talking about, however.
If, rather, disarming the trap behind any door leads to the one secondary corridor which leads to the Gate, now that's DUMB, period, even if the secondary corridor is guarded.


but I don't see any reason why just any rogue would do.

Obviously, a first level rogue won't. But then, the Tomb wasn't built to protect the Gate from wandering first level commoners. If someone who's actually a threat brings a rogue to the tomb, said rogue is basically guaranteed to be good enough. I've even made the calculations: the spell powering the trap is commonly believed to be somethging like Teleportation Circle or Gate, both 9th level spells. Accordingly, the DC of the Search check to find and the Disable Device check to disarm the trap is 25+9, i.e. 34. If a rogue has an INT score of 12/13 (which is not high, and even a bit low given that many basic rogue skills are INT-based) needs some 13 ranks in Search to find the trap unless the rogue has relevant feats and other bonuses. If the rogue has something like Investigator, only 11 ranks are needed, and if the rogue is also an elf we are already down to 9 ranks. This means one needs 6-10 levels in rogue to find such a trap, if one's lucky.
Now, with a similar INT score disarming the trap requires 13 ranks in Disable Device as well (assuming the rogue has a set of thieves' tools). With masterwork tools we go down to 11 ranks and with, say, Nimble Fingers the value further decreases to 9.
From this we may conclude that all it takes to find the second corridor is a lucky day for a 6-10th level rogue (NB: a 6-10th level party has absolutely no chance of surviving the dungeons of the Tomb).

[Kornaki]

They don't need a high level goblin cleric, they just need Durkon to level up once and convert to the dark one.

[understatement]

My most favorite crack theory that I've heard is still the one where Durkon turns Redcloak into a vampire to mentally tell him to seal the rifts.

[Peelee]

They don't need a high level goblin cleric, they just need Durkon to level up once and convert to the dark one.

Durkon converts to The Dark One. The Dark One does not accept this conversion and does not grant Durkon any power. World ends, Peelee gets candy.

[Fyraltari]

Durkon converts to The Dark One. The Dark One does not accept this conversion and does not grant Durkon any power. World ends, Peelee gets candy.

Ah but, what if Durkon converts the Dark One to Thorism?

[Metastachydium]

My most favorite crack theory that I've heard is still the one where Durkon turns Redcloak into a vampire to mentally tell him to seal the rifts.

Don't be silly. Redcloak is an Evil cleric. He couldn't Turn Undead if he wanted to.

[Mic_128]

Don't be silly. Redcloak is an Evil cleric. He couldn't Turn Undead if he wanted to.

What would be the Evil version of that? Straighten Undead? Turn Living?

[Metastachydium]

What would be the Evil version of that? Straighten Undead? Turn Living?

The other reason why turning Redcloak into a vampire and giving him that order wouldn't work. Command Undead is an Evil cleric thing.

[Peelee]

Ah but, what if Durkon converts the Dark One to Thorism?

Then Durkon is not needed, Snarl problem resolved. Xykon destroys the world due to poor impulse control. Peelee gets a coke.

[Keltest]

What would be the Evil version of that? Straighten Undead? Turn Living?

Evil clerics get Rebuke Undead.

[Kornaki]

Durkon converts to The Dark One. The Dark One does not accept this conversion and does not grant Durkon any power. World ends, Peelee gets candy.

Good thing Haley has a +30 bluff modifier potion to facilitate.

[understatement]

The other reason why turning Redcloak into a vampire and giving him that order wouldn't work. Command Undead is an Evil cleric thing.

No, no, Meta, we've talked about this.

Durkon simply converts to Lawful Neutral by kicking Mr. Scruffy a bazillion times and goes to worship the Dark One. Simple and sweet.

[Peelee]

Good thing Haley has a +30 bluff modifier potion to facilitate.

Had. Past tense.

[Emanick]

Had. Past tense.

Doesn't matter, she can just hop over to a previous strip and leave her past self an IOU.

Whether that creates a paradox that massively accelerates the unraveling of StickWorld v.37,405,226.0 is a separate question, I guess.

[Peelee]

Doesn't matter, she can just hop over to a previous strip and leave her past self an IOU.

And then try to bluff a god.

So, after that fails and she has no more ability to bluff the Empire of Blood's prison guards in the past, causality implodes, and Peelee gets a a cheeseburger.

[Kornaki]

We know she bought a bunch of magic stuff at the gnome city, why do you think she didn't replace that potion?

[Peelee]

We know she bought a bunch of magic stuff at the gnome city, why do you think she didn't replace that potion?

A.) Because they're in a world where reality conforms to narrative, so pulling the same thing twice is almost guaranteed to not happen.
2.) Even if it did, why do you think it would work on a deity?

[Kornaki]

A.) Because they're in a world where reality conforms to narrative, so pulling the same thing twice is almost guaranteed to not happen.
2.) Even if it did, why do you think it would work on a deity?

Even deities have a sense motive modifier. Why wouldn't it work?

[Peelee]

Even deities have a sense motive modifier. Why wouldn't it work?

First off, he's a deity, so that modifier is likely to be high (and always gets the greatest possible roll of he's a greater deity, which he very well might be). Second, he died and was defied because he was betrayed by humans, so I'm pretty sure he'd have a pretty hefty circumstance bonus against Haley on top of that. Thirdly, his own high priest can't even chat with him, what makes you think Haley would be able to in order to even get the chance to try to bluff him?

[Kornaki]

First off, he's a deity, so that modifier is likely to be high (and always gets the greatest possible roll of he's a greater deity, which he very well might be). Second, he died and was defied because he was betrayed by humans, so I'm pretty sure he'd have a pretty hefty circumstance bonus against Haley on top of that. Thirdly, his own high priest can't even chat with him, what makes you think Haley would be able to in order to even get the chance to try to bluff him?


Haley would be giving the bluff potion to Durkon. Durkon converts, and prays to the Dark One for spells with a +30 bluff modifier to get them. The dark one falls for the conversion, and grants him spells. No conversation with the deity required, I'm sure people become clerics of gods without talking directly to them all the time.

[Peelee]

Haley would be giving the bluff potion to Durkon. Durkon converts, and prays to the Dark One for spells with a +30 bluff modifier to get them. The dark one falls for the conversion, and grants him spells. No conversation with the deity required, I'm sure people become clerics of gods without talking directly to them all the time.


Bluff

A bluff requires interaction between you and the target.

I would not in any way shape or form classify "praying for spells" as "interaction between a cleric of another god and a completely different god". Further, Durkon died twice, so he would need at least three more levels to be able to have a 9th level spell slot. Further, tricking TDO yet again, even into a proof of concept, would absolutely strip him of all reason to believe that the Snarl destroying the world would likely have TDO die in the interim between world end and next world creation, and TDO would in almost all certainty refuse any more help in this world, let it blow, and then shoot for having full say in the next world. So even in the incredibly unlikely event that your plan goes off without a hitch, it would alienate The Dark One entirely and give him every reaonin the world to jump straight to "**** this world, let's go to the next one".

[Kornaki]

If praying for spells doesn't count as an interaction, then how can TDO even make the sense motive roll needed to find out Durkon isn't a loyal follower? Seems like an auto-success then.

[Forum Explorer]

If praying for spells doesn't count as an interaction, then how can TDO even make the sense motive roll needed to find out Durkon isn't a loyal follower? Seems like an auto-success then.

That is so trolly it made me laugh.


Anyways since the main Villan's have been disintegrated I think they'd actually just go negotiate with Jirex and get him to high enough level to cast the 9th level spell. It's not like the Dark One will refuse to help at all.

But let's say he does and the Order just goes with resealing the gates. The extra hundreds of years of time they buy by doing so may be enough to allow the Dark One to make it to the next world anyways.

[Peelee]

If praying for spells doesn't count as an interaction, then how can TDO even make the sense motive roll needed to find out Durkon isn't a loyal follower? Seems like an auto-success then.

Bluff needs the interaction, so no sense motive roll is needed and no auto success. Can't succeed on a roll that ain't made.

[Metastachydium]

No, no, Meta, we've talked about this.

Durkon simply converts to Lawful Neutral by kicking Mr. Scruffy a bazillion times and goes to worship the Dark One. Simple and sweet.

You are of course right on both counts. I must, nevertheless, point out that since all cats are Evil, Mr. Scruffy is Evil, so kicking him will not do the job. It has to be Elan.


[Stuff.]

Stop the nitpicking and open your hearts to the truth. The way is clear!

[MilleniaAntares]

I should note that, technically, Xykon's soul would return to his phylactery if it wasn't on Redcloak's person at the time of disintegration.

That said, he'd be easier to take out without anyone else to back him up.... assuming he doesn't just return to Gobbotopia or wherever and start the minion conscription process anew.

[Metastachydium]

I should note that, technically, Xykon's soul would return to his phylactery if it wasn't on Redcloak's person at the time of disintegration.

That said, he'd be easier to take out without anyone else to back him up.... assuming he doesn't just return to Gobbotopia or wherever and start the minion conscription process anew.

Unless of course the trap is secretly the Snarl and it destroyed his soul!

[Precure]

If praying for spells doesn't count as an interaction, then how can TDO even make the sense motive roll needed to find out Durkon isn't a loyal follower? Seems like an auto-success then.

Just like Tsukiko.

[Ajustusdaniel]

I should note that, technically, Xykon's soul would return to his phylactery if it wasn't on Redcloak's person at the time of disintegration.

That said, he'd be easier to take out without anyone else to back him up.... assuming he doesn't just return to Gobbotopia or wherever and start the minion conscription process anew.

Actually a solid point- do we know where the phylactery is at the moment?

[Peelee]

Actually a solid point- do we know where the phylactery is at the moment?

Sure. It's on the Astral plane, in a fortress.

[Saint-Just]

he died and was defied

Nobody defies the Dark One


Sure. It's on the Astral plane, in a fortress.

Or is it?(dun dun duun)

[Metastachydium]

Sure. It's on the Astral plane, in a fortress.

Except not. As far as we know, the pendant in the fortress is not the phylactery, it's just a copy.

[Dion]

Except not. As far as we know, the pendant in the fortress is not the phylactery, it's just a copy.

What if Tsukiko switched it first, and gave the real phylactery to the hobgoblin craftsman and the fake phylactery to the resistance?

[Metastachydium]

What if Tsukiko switched it first, and gave the real phylactery to the hobgoblin craftsman and the fake phylactery to the resistance?

I don't really see Tsukiko in a sewer.

[Peelee]

Except not. As far as we know, the pendant in the fortress is not the phylactery, it's just a copy.

... Like, I knew that, but for some reason said the opposite. I can't explain it. I just derped.

[Emanick]

I don't really see Tsukiko in a sewer.

She probably spends a lot of time in graveyards, so a sewer doesn’t strike me as such a huge stretch. Point taken, though.