Contest Base Class Contest XIV Chat Thread [Archive]

MoleMage

2021-01-04, 12:24 PM

Welcome to the chat thread for the forteenth Base Class Competition for D&D 5e. If you wish to say anything about the competition which is neither a submission nor a vote, then it belongs here. You do not need to be a contestant to post here. You are allowed to critique a competitor’s work and offer suggestions on how to improve their homebrew through this thread, but it is preferred if you do so through that class’ specific thread (if applicable).

Current Contest: Contest XIV: Monster Mash II (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?624969-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIV-Monster-Mash-II&p=24871549#post24871549)

Voting Thread: Coming March 1st

1st contest: Who Needs Swords or Sorcery? (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?556338-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-I-Who-needs-Swords-OR-Sorcerery), won by WarrentheHero with the Inventor

2nd contest: Expect a low Margin of Terror (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?560208-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-II-expect-a-low-Margin-of-Terror), Won by Mourne with the Sleepwalker

3rd Contest: The Elements, and not the Periodic Ones (Probably?) (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?565360-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-III-The-Elements-and-not-the-periodic-ones-(probably-)!), won By Pygmybatrider with The Shaman

4th contest: Does Not Meet Expectations (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?570496-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IV-Does-Not-Meet-Expectations), won with a tie by Molemage with the Destined and Pygmybatrider's Mesmer

5th contest: Time to Chill out (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?576131-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-V-Time-to-Chill-Out&p=23567807#post23567807), won by Molemage with the Wintreborn

6th contest: The Monster Mash (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?581138-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-VI-The-Monster-Mash), won with a three-way tie by Molemage with the Golem, theVoidWatches with the Lycanthrope, and daemonaetae with the Elemental Scion

7th contest: Remix Mastery (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?587919-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VII-Remix-Mastery&p=23906232#post23906232), won by KOLE with the Ranger Remixed

8th contest: Contest VIII: Magic Without Slots (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?594571-D-amp-D-Base-Class-Contest-VIII-Magic-Without-Slots&p=24070927#post24070927), won by MoleMage with the Cultist

9th contest: It's Time for Time (http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?600537-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-IX-It-s-Time-for-Time&p=24361802#post24361802), won by MoleMage with the Clockwinder

10th contest: Blast from the Past (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?606841-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-X-Blast-from-the-Past), won by PairO'DiceLost with the Martial Adept

11th contest: Contest XI: Signature Creation (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?612097-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XI-Signature-Creation&p=24502355#post24502355) won by MoleMage with the Chef

12th contest: Contest XII: Hybrid Vigor (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?616515-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XII-Hybrid-Vigor) won by MoleMage with the Witch

13th contest: Based in Science (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?620836-D-amp-D-5e-Base-Class-Contest-XIII-Based-in-Science) won by Old Harry MTX with the Pilot

1) The class you homebrew should fit the theme. You can interpret the theme as broadly as you like without risk of disqualification, but doing so may reduce your chances of earning votes during the voting period.
2) You may only create one base class. If you create more than one class then you must choose which one to enter and remove all the others from this thread and the contest (making them invalid) . If you do not specify which one you favor by the time voting begins, all of your content is invalid.
3) When you submit your class you must create a post on this thread which either has the content or holds a link to it. You may also optionally create one other individual thread for your class on the homebrew design sub-forum. If it is found that you have revealed your class on another site or on another thread than one on the homebrew design sub-forum, your entry will be considered invalid. If you do make a specific thread for you class, please mention its involvement to the competition in that thread. If you use external formatting resources such as Homebrewery, or GMBinder it is recommended that you also create a PDF of the content and share it here.
4) You may use other homebrew content (such as feats, spells, magical items and monsters) or even features to supplement your class, provided you have permission from the original creator and provide links to the source. Failure to receive permission from the original creation will disqualify you from entry in the current contest.
5) Your class must have fully completed mechanics and descriptions for it to be valid. Entries are due by 11:59 PM Central Time on the deadline. Any submissions after this point are invalid. No changes can be made to your class while voting is taking place. Failure to comply with the previous rule will result in disqualification.
6) Any content which has been declared invalid by the rules above cannot be voted for, but you may decide to remove it from the contest and create another class instead. If you are disqualified then you are not allowed to enter any more homebrew for this competition, though you may still vote and later enter the next competition.
7) Please note that misunderstandings occur, if you break a rule which results in disqualification it might be excused if you can convince the group that it was a result of confusion over the rules.

Contests stay up for 8 weeks unless an extension is requested by participants. Voting threads then go up for 3 weeks before the next contest begins.

Dragons
Heroes from Myths
Partial Casters
Divine Judgment
Other Media
Breakfast Cereal Mascots

Also note that themes that have not been used in at least six contests (anything up to Magic Without Slots) are also eligible for voting.

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-04, 04:15 PM

The Beheld
I’m Thinking out loud here:
20 levels
You get an escalating Action and/or Reaction counter/dispel feature and a conical AMF.

You start with 4 eye stalks and a small size, eyestalks are generally cantrips, you get a 9 level casting progression with a curated list from Wizard and Warlock. Pact Magic is probably the norm.

Your fly speed is 20/hover

3 subclasses
Eye Tyrant
Death Tyrant
Lucid Dreamer

Damon_Tor

2021-01-04, 08:16 PM

*Reads through the last version of this contest
*Nobody made a dragon

Welp, I guess I have to step up to the plate.

MoleMage

2021-01-04, 09:48 PM

*Reads through the last version of this contest
*Nobody made a dragon

Welp, I guess I have to step up to the plate.

Well that narrows down my list of potential candidates.

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-07, 01:18 AM

Damon_Tor

2021-01-07, 03:30 AM

The Beheld is done.

It's playable, I definitely need to revisit the format and verbiage. It has a Pact magic variant that allows you to scale any of your spells all the way up to 9th by using your higher level choices, so yes, you can disintegrate 4 times in a row, but why would you ever?

Spell list is smaller, known spells is way small because I wanted to stick more towards 10 eyes is 10 spells. A lot of the early level 1 stuff evokes the upper level stuff.

I also added in some druid spells like entangle and plantgrowth and primal savagery to allow you to create more weird beholder types. Like the signature one for my hastily composed art is kind of part ooze. It doesn't have a bite, but Primal Savagery allows for a melee acid attack.

I'm actually pretty happy with the archetypes. I welcome any feedback.

It's very cool overall.

The "spells known" system is a little hard to follow. Each eyestalk "knows" a single spell be it a cantrip or a leveled spell, right? So at level 1 I could know one cantrip and three leveled spells or three cantrips and one leveled spell, yes? I feel like this should be said more clearly. I'm not sure why you avoid typical spellcasting nomenclature. You call them glances and glares instead of cantrips and spells, and dance around calling them "spell slots" as well and I feel like the clarity of the class suffers for it. It doesn't help that "glance" and "glare" are similar looking words and it's easy to read quickly and forget which is which.

The class table could use an "eyestalks" column". The number of features which say something like "and you also get another eyestalk" makes it hard to follow.

The bite is a nice attack, but outside of some weird multiclass builds it seems like it's mostly a ribbon on a spellcasting class without any other use for strength. Ribbons are fine, but it makes the levels you get them feel empty. I would move this to level 1 and put something else in at level 2.

The subclasses are all very cool, well done on those.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-07, 03:50 AM

I'll open up the dragon upstart for critique as well.

Right now it's too strong, and I'm aware of that. I'm going to be toning down the extra stat boosts they get as well as their extra HP to being them down to "young dragon" levels which was the balance point I've decided on.

EDIT: Changelog for the Upstart:

Removed Draconic Resilience. Reduced the Dragon Might max stats progression from 22/24/26 to 20/22/24. Removed Wing Attack. Removed the last level of Expanded Breath and pushed back levels 1 and 2. Added "Hoarder" and "Dragon Greed" which should hopefully add some excellent roleplay potential to the class.

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-07, 08:57 AM

It's very cool overall.

The "spells known" system is a little hard to follow. Each eyestalk "knows" a single spell be it a cantrip or a leveled spell, right? So at level 1 I could know one cantrip and three leveled spells or three cantrips and one leveled spell, yes? I feel like this should be said more clearly. I'm not sure why you avoid typical spellcasting nomenclature. You call them glances and glares instead of cantrips and spells, and dance around calling them "spell slots" as well and I feel like the clarity of the class suffers for it. It doesn't help that "glance" and "glare" are similar looking words and it's easy to read quickly and forget which is which.

The class table could use an "eyestalks" column". The number of features which say something like "and you also get another eyestalk" makes it hard to follow.

The bite is a nice attack, but outside of some weird multiclass builds it seems like it's mostly a ribbon on a spellcasting class without any other use for strength. Ribbons are fine, but it makes the levels you get them feel empty. I would move this to level 1 and put something else in at level 2.

The subclasses are all very cool, well done on those.

Thank you very much for the response.

Spells known does need a better explanation. The Intent is 4 cantrips at 1 and 1 more at odd levels to 9 and a bonus from Evolution. I had an early idea about having to assign powers to eyes so they could be targeted etc but 5e doesn’t generally have a system like that so I watered it down to a flavorful “lose an eye, lose a cantrip.”

Level 2 also gets your 2nd Glance slot so I thought the bite wouldn’t be so bad as a ribbon. It looks like I need to revisit the bite language to make it Unarmed Strike damage. Some of the choices I made were intended to steer interesting martial character options. Monk 2 could be interesting, able to flurry a 4d6 bite twice per combat, and if you focus on paralyzing, a 2d6 crit might be a decent option at low level and a 4d6 could definitely be at high.

The two major reasons for avoiding standard spell nomenclature is to prevent Multiclassing shenanigans (reminder: add bit about mage hand being able to activate magic items and use tools), and avoid the “trap” of pact magic format. Pact magic works well for warlocks, but here the more limited spell slots and selection I think would be too limiting, so offering the ability to freely scale like normal spells is important. But most importantly, I didn’t want the modifications to Beheld spells from Evolution to be viable with regular spellcasting.

But yeah, Eye Tyrant 3/Djinnlock X should not have permanent invisible no component Eldritch blasts that are also invisible.

I could just add “your Beheld spells” to the text but that might lose a lot of flavor... I’ll probably go back and change it in descriptions, leave glance/gaze/etc as class features and add a sidebar for fluff.

Crim the Cold

2021-01-07, 11:05 AM

I have an idea that honestly is a bit of an adaptation of the idea I had for the based in science contest. Would a more futuristic class be okay for this? It also has a weird subsystem and subclass structure so I don't know how well its going to turn out.

sengmeng

2021-01-07, 11:53 PM

MoleMage

2021-01-07, 11:55 PM

Damon_Tor

2021-01-08, 09:21 AM

I had the idea for the Adversary since the first Monster Mash contest, and have now almost completed it. I need an 18th level subclass feature and to actually write it a spell list (which I could probably copy/paste from someone else's psionic subclass, whatever fits vague weird mind powers), but I suppose it's safe to call it 95% playable right now. It's at least PEACHable 😂

It's pretty rad.

I do question the "subclassing" system you've come up with, which is just... forced multiclassing? And how does it work if you choose, say, wizard as your past life... and then take an actual level in wizard? Do you get all the first level features... twice? I can't speak for everyone, but I don't feel like strict adherence to a subclass system is entirely necessary. If it doesn't fit your monster class then come up with other ways to create interesting options. My dragons don't have explicit subclasses either: there are the subspecies of course, and the different talents, and the maturations... all of which allow for different playstyles. None of those on their own would be a "subclass" but taken together I feel like they provide as much unique gameplay as a subclass would.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-08, 10:37 AM

A few more additions to the Dragon Upstart: I added Maturations available for the metallic dragons to be able to develop their second "controller" breath weapons at level 6. The Silver Dragons' Paralyzing Breath was pretty seriously nerfed for balance reasons (1 minute of paralysis is nowhere near the effect of the other weapons. I changed it to a 1 round stun instead). The others are mostly as written in the monster's manual. So they aren't left with nothing, the chromatic dragons have access to a Maturation that upgrades the damage dice of their breath weapon to d8s.

Also, I've removed the white dragon's suite of special movement modes from the silver dragon: despite having ice breath and cold resistance, the white dragon isn't actually an "ice dragon" perse but is actually supposed to be a sort of a "cloud dragon". As such I've given them the ability to hover and a permanent feather fall effect instead of an additional movement mode.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-09, 12:27 AM

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-09, 12:48 AM

Some further thoughts on the adversary:

At-will, nigh inescapable stun as an automatic rider on an attack is a really potent feature for level 1: if the stun lasts as long as the grapple does, and they cannot take actions or move (because they are stunned) then what's the counterplay here? I would push the stun back a few levels. Mind blast is also very strong, and also probably deserving a later introduction into the class. Either that or make mind blast a damage effect only at first level and add in the stun sometime later.

I think a better progression for would Mindblast would be either 1/rest unless you spend a Psi die to do it again or Proficiency bonus uses per day
1st- 15 ft cone, damage and no reactions on a fail.
5th- 30 ft cone, damage no reactions and speed 0 on a fail, half damage on a save.
11th, 60ft cone, damage and stun until end of your next turn on a fail, half damage on a save.
17th, 60ft cone, damage and stun for 1 minute, half damage on a save, repeat save at end of turn.

I'd go with 3 subclasses, a rogue lite, diet wizard, and a grappler.

Incap on grapples is kind of a non starter as a general feature, but as a subclass option it's a lot more palatable. Compare to Enchanter's L2 feature, which allows you to incap a target for your action each round. Have it run on a resource like Psi Dice or just Proficiency per day Incapping grapples.

Brain Extraction as is seems to be too good. That's just such a monstrous amount of damage. Maybe look into a Intelligence damage 1/day ala Intellect Devourer?

In general, I love Mindflayers as a concept. In all honesty I kind of loathe the adversary character from the books which felt rather Mary Sue, but as a "disease" that Elderbrains are paranoid about it would be very cool. Like if an Illithid remembers what it's like to feel love, the Illithids around it might also go digging around in the residual memories of their own bodies leading to an erosion of the ordered hierarchy as they become distracted by a desire to personally experience base emotions rather than just eat them. In this light "The Adversary" becomes an enemy within every Illithid rather than some wanker that drank magic tea so he could be a saboteur.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-09, 01:55 AM

I think a better progression for would Mindblast would be either 1/rest unless you spend a Psi die to do it again or Proficiency bonus uses per day
1st- 15 ft cone, damage and no reactions on a fail.
5th- 30 ft cone, damage no reactions and speed 0 on a fail, half damage on a save.
11th, 60ft cone, damage and stun until end of your next turn on a fail, half damage on a save.
17th, 60ft cone, damage and stun for 1 minute, half damage on a save, repeat save at end of turn.

I can agree with this.

Brain Extraction as is seems to be too good. That's just such a monstrous amount of damage. Maybe look into a Intelligence damage 1/day ala Intellect Devourer?

I don't think it's as bad as it looks, when you have to set it up the turn before with a successful tentacle attack (which deals about ~23 damage) AND they have to fail their int save vs the stun AND you have to maintain the grapple for a whole round thereafter (their allies would be likely to try to interfere). Think of it as a combo finisher. So the mindflayer's two turns combined deal a total of 105.5 damage under the very specific conditions that everything does according to plan: they have to succeed on three d20 rolls in a row. If any one of those rolls fail, the A rogue attacking with a heavy crossbow and sneak attack at 20th level will deal about 45.5 damage each shot, or 91 damage over two rounds, and all he has to do is meet some very basic requirements of sneak attack. And it's also relevant that the Flayer has to get into melee to do this, with a 1d8 hit die and medium armor proficiency but no shields, and no real skirmishing capability. And it only works on humanoids.

I suspect the number of times this will actually get used successfully in practice would be fairly disappointing.

I do, however, have some concerns about the ability to multiclass (or "past life") a fighter for Action Surge so you could both grapple and bore into brain on the same turn. I would include some wording that would require Brain Extraction to only be available when the Mind Flayer starts its turn grappling the target.

In general, I love Mindflayers as a concept. In all honesty I kind of loathe the adversary character from the books which felt rather Mary Sue, but as a "disease" that Elderbrains are paranoid about it would be very cool. Like if an Illithid remembers what it's like to feel love, the Illithids around it might also go digging around in the residual memories of their own bodies leading to an erosion of the ordered hierarchy as they become distracted by a desire to personally experience base emotions rather than just eat them. In this light "The Adversary" becomes an enemy within every Illithid rather than some wanker that drank magic tea so he could be a saboteur.

I've always loved the idea of a failed/partial ceremorphosis. That was the basis of a Great Old One warlock I played a while ago, and in fourth edition I homebrewed a Paragon Path out of the concept.

sengmeng

2021-01-09, 08:53 AM

I can agree with this.

I don't think it's as bad as it looks, when you have to set it up the turn before with a successful tentacle attack (which deals about ~23 damage) AND they have to fail their int save vs the stun AND you have to maintain the grapple for a whole round thereafter (their allies would be likely to try to interfere). Think of it as a combo finisher. So the mindflayer's two turns combined deal a total of 105.5 damage under the very specific conditions that everything does according to plan: they have to succeed on three d20 rolls in a row. If any one of those rolls fail, the A rogue attacking with a heavy crossbow and sneak attack at 20th level will deal about 45.5 damage each shot, or 91 damage over two rounds, and all he has to do is meet some very basic requirements of sneak attack. And it's also relevant that the Flayer has to get into melee to do this, with a 1d8 hit die and medium armor proficiency but no shields, and no real skirmishing capability. And it only works on humanoids.

I suspect the number of times this will actually get used successfully in practice would be fairly disappointing.

I do, however, have some concerns about the ability to multiclass (or "past life") a fighter for Action Surge so you could both grapple and bore into brain on the same turn. I would include some wording that would require Brain Extraction to only be available when the Mind Flayer starts its turn grappling the target.

I've always loved the idea of a failed/partial ceremorphosis. That was the basis of a Great Old One warlock I played a while ago, and in fourth edition I homebrewed a Paragon Path out of the concept.

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've got a lot to think about. I am more or less comfortable with this class letting you utterly demolish a single target you've managed to corner alone in 2-3 turns without even expending a spell slot or losing a hitpont; when you extract a brain as a mind flayer, you aren't a character winning a duel, you are a predator feeding on their prey. The better comparison would be the unfairness involved in a wolf chomping a rabbit. Statistically, the damages of the attacks, the range of the telepathy and darkvision, and the magic resistance all catch up to the monster manual mind flayer at level 15, while your hitpoints, psionics, and probably ability scores will be a bit higher, compared to the mind flayer in the book being a 13d8+13 for hp and a CR 7. Yes the Adversary is powerful, but by existing you're picking a fight with a steady stream of one of the most powerful monsters out there and alienating most allies. I will consider moving back mind blast, but he does need to be able to grapple and extract a brain at level one, or he'll starve 😂. But maybe I picked the wrong level to have it all come on line? And another problem, for my sensibilities at least, is plausibility: if the Adversary can't pass as a normal mind flayer, he would get found out. Does anyone think maybe he should cap at the level 15 amounts of damage and scale from even lower starting numbers, and reach them at level 20? Also like the idea of lowering the range, duration, and uses of the mind blast when he first gets it as well.

Oh and I literally am playing a great old one warlock in a campaign right now that is the opposite of the Adversary: a physically normal drow who failed to transform so he has the mind of an illithid and is loyal to the elder brain. It's an (eldritch) blast!

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-09, 09:42 AM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've got a lot to think about. I am more or less comfortable with this class letting you utterly demolish a single target you've managed to corner alone in 2-3 turns without even expending a spell slot or losing a hitpont; when you extract a brain as a mind flayer, you aren't a character winning a duel, you are a predator feeding on their prey. The better comparison would be the unfairness involved in a wolf chomping a rabbit. Statistically, the damages of the attacks, the range of the telepathy and darkvision, and the magic resistance all catch up to the monster manual mind flayer at level 15, while your hitpoints, psionics, and probably ability scores will be a bit higher, compared to the mind flayer in the book being a 13d8+13 for hp and a CR 7. Yes the Adversary is powerful, but by existing you're picking a fight with a steady stream of one of the most powerful monsters out there and alienating most allies. I will consider moving back mind blast, but he does need to be able to grapple and extract a brain at level one, or he'll starve 😂. But maybe I picked the wrong level to have it all come on line? And another problem, for my sensibilities at least, is plausibility: if the Adversary can't pass as a normal mind flayer, he would get found out. Does anyone think maybe he should cap at the level 15 amounts of damage and scale from even lower starting numbers, and reach them at level 20? Also like the idea of lowering the range, duration, and uses of the mind blast when he first gets it as well.

Oh and I literally am playing a great old one warlock in a campaign right now that is the opposite of the Adversary: a physically normal drow who failed to transform so he has the mind of an illithid and is loyal to the elder brain. It's an (eldritch) blast!

The Invocation feat from Tasha's makes a lot of these monsters a lot more viable since you can just Mask of Many Faces yourself through 90% of roleplay.

For the Illithid specifically they can disguise as a human. A Dragon might want to roll around as a dog or horse to not draw attention. Beholder... I don't know floating octopus familiar?

Damon_Tor

2021-01-09, 11:10 AM

Thanks everyone for the feedback. I've got a lot to think about. I am more or less comfortable with this class letting you utterly demolish a single target you've managed to corner alone in 2-3 turns without even expending a spell slot or losing a hitpont; when you extract a brain as a mind flayer, you aren't a character winning a duel, you are a predator feeding on their prey. The better comparison would be the unfairness involved in a wolf chomping a rabbit. Statistically, the damages of the attacks, the range of the telepathy and darkvision, and the magic resistance all catch up to the monster manual mind flayer at level 15, while your hitpoints, psionics, and probably ability scores will be a bit higher, compared to the mind flayer in the book being a 13d8+13 for hp and a CR 7. Yes the Adversary is powerful, but by existing you're picking a fight with a steady stream of one of the most powerful monsters out there and alienating most allies. I will consider moving back mind blast, but he does need to be able to grapple and extract a brain at level one, or he'll starve 😂. But maybe I picked the wrong level to have it all come on line? And another problem, for my sensibilities at least, is plausibility: if the Adversary can't pass as a normal mind flayer, he would get found out. Does anyone think maybe he should cap at the level 15 amounts of damage and scale from even lower starting numbers, and reach them at level 20? Also like the idea of lowering the range, duration, and uses of the mind blast when he first gets it as well.

Grappling at level 1 is fine, the major problem is the stun that comes with it being too strong. And the mindflayer in the MM isn't a "level 1" mindflayer fresh from his transformation, that's a guy that's been at it a while. Maybe it takes all mindflayers a few weeks to get the stun part of the grapple right. Until they do they have to make their enemies incapacitated the old fashioned way, by getting their HP to zero.[/QUOTE]

BerzerkerUnit

2021-01-09, 11:48 AM

Inspired by the Adversary's past life type feature, I added a Rebel evolution to the Beheld for PCs that want to spend their career trying to reverse their transformation. Some interesting spell choices I think but a push toward Gish in the late game.

Might flip the 14 and 10 features since they kind of break the pattern. If so 10 feature might be some sort of warp wave ala 40k Navigators to keep the pattern.

Morphic tide

2021-01-09, 07:50 PM

Suppose I'll be hammering away at Bony Boys for a while, as they seem the nearest fit for a design shenanigan I'm looking to pull off. Going to start with the front half including one subclass for the moment to get something demonstrative on the floor without hammering away for two days straight trying to splatbook dive down to the TSR days looking for a solid Rogue or Druid analogue. Trying to keep the mechanics relatively simple as per the norms of 5e no matter how much it itches to go for full-bore on warping of the action economy or doom of a bajillion minions, and have basically zero grip of 5e benchmarks beyond blunt imitation so I'll be buggering something fiercely without a doubt. Probably in managing to simultaneously bork the personal capabilities and end up with too much boosting of minions.

In case it isn't readily apparent from the so-far written stuff, the design shenanigan in question is a matter of resting the 5th-level power spike on the subclass, and trying for an open-ended construction that permits far more multiclassing friendliness than normal, such as how the example so far on Spell Stitched is handing you a 3rd-level spell in a fashion that lets you immediately bail for Wizard and keep getting at least one spell per spell level "on schedule", as it were. And yes, this being split Intelligence/Wisdom is intentional, as most existing group buffs are under Charisma, so if you want to use those, you need to either go four-attribute dependent or become a back liner, definitely going to repeat this for the others in some capacity to basically browbeat people into MADness at some point in their life. Granted, two 15s and a 13 isn't actually much a stretch for point-buy...

Damon_Tor

2021-01-10, 04:37 AM

I upgraded the Draconic Talents into proper subclasses.
I got rid of Breath Weapon Savant, though the ability itself survives in spirit as the Natural Spellcaster's Explosive Cantrips ability.
I added "Dragon Cult" which explores the dragon's uncanny ability to accumulate mortals willing to die for it.
Notably, all three of the subclasses are keyed off of Charisma now, which leaves the class MAD by design. A dragon that neglects Str, Con, or Cha will feel it.
Also by design, all three subclasses give the dragon some way to interact with humanoids. Naturally the Shapeshifter is the best at this: that's his whole thing, and his subclass has next to zero utility in combat compared to the others. But the Natural Spellcaster can use Disguise Self/Alter Self to look like a large dog or a horse and get by in a human city (and those spells last for 8 hours each on him when he gets to level 6). The godhead of a Dragon Cult can simply send his servants as messengers on his behalf.
I got rid of the 4-6 recharge on the breath weapon at high levels: it was a needless addition that isn't reflected in dragons of any age category in official sources, which all recharge their breath on a roll of 5-6. However, I also increased the damage progression on the breath weapons slightly to compensate.

Morphic tide

2021-01-10, 10:42 AM

Hmm... Thinking of switching Relentless Bones to level 11 and make it a bigger durability boost than the Necromancer Wizard gets, while level 7's attachment to the bump in minion count gets swapped to healing and saving throws. Overall thinking is trying to have bog-standard Skeletons be sensible at higher levels, then the beefier Undead you can get from other sources get much nastier. A lot of this is running on the possibly-wrong assumption that different sources of controlled creatures require separate Bonus Actions to control, so you can only control one source of minions per turn via Bonus Action. Even if it isn't, Fractured Orders still opens up having your minions do three things each turn, with one portion following you, then being able to divide your Bonus Action into two "control groups".

For now, I've shuffled some wording to hopefully be clearer and more direct about how it's expected to work, and am still waiting for comments on it.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-10, 12:01 PM

For now, I've shuffled some wording to hopefully be clearer and more direct about how it's expected to work, and am still waiting for comments on it.

I like minion stuff more than most people, so I like what you're doing here mechanically. I'm not sure I understand what the fluff is, but that can come later.

There's got to be a better way to recover your minions than as a long rest with humanoid corpses. It's the entire basis of your class, and skeletons are fragile, so the idea that when all your boney bros are dust you've got nothing the rest of the day is pretty rough. IMO, maybe make it so you can make janky skelebros during a short rest by spending hit dice to heal them, like you're breaking off pieces of yourself to patch up your homies.

It's weird that "giving two different groups of minions different orders" is a level 10 feature rather than just something you can be expected to do. A class that's all about about controlling minions should probably just be good at controlling minions.

Morphic tide

2021-01-10, 04:03 PM

I like minion stuff more than most people, so I like what you're doing here mechanically. I'm not sure I understand what the fluff is, but that can come later.

There's got to be a better way to recover your minions than as a long rest with humanoid corpses. It's the entire basis of your class, and skeletons are fragile, so the idea that when all your boney bros are dust you've got nothing the rest of the day is pretty rough. IMO, maybe make it so you can make janky skelebros during a short rest by spending hit dice to heal them, like you're breaking off pieces of yourself to patch up your homies.

It's weird that "giving two different groups of minions different orders" is a level 10 feature rather than just something you can be expected to do. A class that's all about about controlling minions should probably just be good at controlling minions.

Actually, it's giving three groups orders, since the 6th-level Follower's Orders lets you have them copy your actions, and then Fractured Orders boosts those follow-along minions further, so your action is what's mostly getting things done, you just happen to have some backup providing much of the weight. And, of course, you only actually have more than one minion to command at 7th with Relentless Bones, so you're not suffering through much non-granularity of commands.

The hit-dice "splitting" sounds like a nice way to limit it, and works in as a healing mechanic somewhat in its own right to not need a discrete feature for covering that, and gives a sensible direction for scaling durability baked right into the creation, so I'll go ahead and throw that in. Still corpse-limited and one animation per rest, but the quickly-superior health totals and healing option should cut into the issues, alongside specifically allowing the recouping of broken Undead.

As for the fluff, the idea is trying to largely generalize the "Undead Lieutenant" role that you see in a ton of the Undead. Deathlocks, Skull Lords, Wights and Ghasts at low levels, Shadows in some cases, Liches literally any time they aren't the big bad, Death Knights, Hueveca if I'm getting the spelling right, many uses of the 3.5 Spellstitched template, and on and on it goes because of just how pervasive "massive hordes of Skeletons and Zombies" is as a campaign theme. Not sure how to word that sort of thing without resorting to just blatant callouts of the genre conventions.

Damon_Tor

2021-01-10, 04:18 PM

Actually, it's giving three groups orders, since the 6th-level Follower's Orders lets you have them copy your actions

The wording isn't clear on that then: I was under the impression that you had to use a bonus action to say "Do what I do" and then they do it.

Requilac

2021-02-01, 04:34 PM

MoleMage

2021-02-01, 05:19 PM

Hello everyone! I am willing to bet most of you probably don't remember me, but I am the person that started this contest all those years ago. It has been a while since I logged on, and I am just curious to see what direction this project has taken while I have been gone. Have there been any especially unique or interesting submissions in the past few competitions?

Good to see you again!

I think It's Time for Time had our most interesting entries overall. I especially liked the Conductor in that one. Blast from the Past also had some cool adaptations of old systems, especially the Martial Adept, and I was quite pleased with my own Totemist in that one.

And just last contest, our Based in Science theme ended up looking a whole lot like the original Who Needs Swords or Sorcery, with almost everyone having indirect attacks in some form or another.

Requilac

2021-02-01, 10:28 PM

Good to see you again!

I think It's Time for Time had our most interesting entries overall. I especially liked the Conductor in that one. Blast from the Past also had some cool adaptations of old systems, especially the Martial Adept, and I was quite pleased with my own Totemist in that one.

And just last contest, our Based in Science theme ended up looking a whole lot like the original Who Needs Swords or Sorcery, with almost everyone having indirect attacks in some form or another.

I just looked through the entires in It's Time for Time, and there certainly are some interesting mechanics being used. And I will have to agree with you that that Conductor class is something real unique. That may be my favourite class in this entire competition! I never played older editions from Blast from the Past so I can't fully appreciate the content there, but the classes there do seem streamlined and well fleshed out if nothing else.

I guess it only makes sense that Based in Scene and Who Needs Swords or Sorcery would be similar. The whole idea of that latter competition was that the class would neither be based on weapon attacks or magic, which would lead people to think of more technological ways for classes to keep pace with the casters.

Thank you for keeping up this little project! I am happy to see that such good content has come from it.

Damon_Tor

2021-02-14, 06:47 PM

A few more tweaks to the Dragon Upstart, mostly to the subclasses.

The Shapeshifter can now function somewhat more competently in combat without having to take his dragon form and blow his cover, due to having extra attack at 6th level. If you wanted to play as a dragon that stayed in human form nearly exclusively, you could do that. You wouldn't have the damage output of other martial characters, but the dragon's special senses and saving throw proficiency maturations would serve you very well.

The Dragon Cult had the most major changes:

Their number of commoner followers changes from (prof mod + cha mod) to (1/2 class level + cha mod). It's a good amount of minions, but their 2d4 day respawn time and weakness discourages their casual use in combat, so I don't really consider this a major combat boost, it's more of a labor pool most of the time.
The 1/8 CR followers they get at 6th level no longer just seek them out like the commoners do: the dragon will have to actively convert them, or have their other followers convert them, which can take 3-6 days. One thing this means: this is potentially a way you can deal with NPCs who are gatekeeping information or access to resources: send your cult to convert him... or if they refuse to listen, have your cult kidnap the troublesome NPC, chain him up with you for a bit, and give him a few days to realize that you are his new God. This won't work on every PC, as the attempt is contested by either intelligence (religion) or wisdom (insight) and if you get three failures before three successes, the NPC can't be converted.
The CR 1/2 followers they get are no longer in addition to your others, but rather the maximum CR of your converts rises to 1/2 CR. This means that instead of having (ChaMod*CR 1/8)+(1/2ChaMod*CR 1/2) you have (ChaMod*CR 1/2) which is an increase in power while decreasing the actual number of (useful) minions on the field.

MoleMage

2021-02-15, 04:15 PM

Got the Genie up (hosted through GMBinder). It's a busy week for me but I should have some time Thursday to get some (hopefully not too late) feedback in for everyone, and maybe on the weekend to set up the proper formatting for the class on the forum here.

MoleMage

2021-02-24, 04:14 PM

Feedback time! (Sorry it's a week later than planned, I had an appointment get moved last week.) After today I will be away from computer for several days. I may be able to read for brief periods in there but I won't be able to follow up on anything until early next week.

Gotta say I was not expecting this. They don't even have limbs!

It's a good thing you lose your hands when you level this class, because Horrid Hide and Central Eye would be multiclass-bait otherwise due to the proficiency scaling.
Eyestalks: if I read this right, it gives warlock progression? Seems reasonable.
Swift Glances: this seems like a lot of uses, especially early on. When you get it you have 3rd level glares; a 5th level sorcerer can quicken 1 3rd level spell per long rest, plus an additional 1 if they burn a 1st or 2nd level slot for sorcery points. The beheld can do it 3 times without giving up any slots. By level 20 the sorcerer starts to catch up, still being behind if you don't account for extra sorcerous points from their capstone or converting but theoretically coming out ahead if you do (though they have fewer 5th level slots, that's part of the warlock/full caster differences). Still, I'd lower the overall number.
Gazes: Warlocks can't use Mystic Arcanum to upcast, so this feature is strictly an improved version of Mystic Arcanum.
Antimagic Stare: Do you regain this stare after using your 8th/9th level gaze, or do you not regain it on a long rest if you have used those gazes? The wording could be interpreted either way. If the idea is that it consumes your future slots, I would just make it consume a slot when cast and let the gaze mechanics cover its recharge.
What benefit, other than descriptive, do you get for growing additional eye stalks? It happens in a few different places.

Death Tyrant: Ghostly Eyestalk doesn't have a usage limitation. Necrotic Gaze consumes one of your uses of Central Eye, correct? It just says you use the feature, but "one of your uses of" is more common wording (see Valor Bard or Whispers Bard).
Lucid Dreamer: ESP has a lot of uses. It's not too bad until level 6 (roughly equivalent to a flexible Expertise until it runs out), but it does mean a lot of things to track for the player.
Rebel's Handsome Horror's size change effect is redundant (as the base features increase your size to medium at level 3 and only the Eye Tyrant can become large; that temporarily).

Overall, it's a faithful rendition of the creature, but I'm worried about all of its charge-based features being both A: available relatively early and B: proficiency calculated. A Beholder (Lucid Dreamer) 6/ Wizard XX seems like an easy abuse situation. The separation of Glances, Glares, and Gazes also means that the Beheld interacts oddly with things that affect spellcasting (for example, if your beholder gets a Wand of the War Mage, can they use that or does it not apply? What about Barbarian/Beheld multiclasses, can the Glare while in a rage? Can glares be used to cast spells from other sources, or vice versa?). Finally, number of eyestalks doesn't seem to do anything (other than causing you to lose cantrips if you're a rebel and you alter them away).

I almost did a dragon until I saw this going up. I too was shocked that nobody did one in the last contest.

A built-in race is something I hadn't seen done before. It seems alright to me, basically a dragonborn plus darkvision and the "crop" feature (dragonborn really got a short helping so I am not terribly worried about minor improvements unbalancing them).
Dragon Greed: This is a pretty minor feature for 5th level (typically a powerful level with things like Extra Attack or 3rd level spells). I'd swap its position with the 6th level Talent features since all of those seem pretty strong.
Hoarder: I would explicitly state that this bonus does not stack with similar bonuses due to magic items; otherwise its actual values are within the bounds of reasonable.

I actually don't have a lot else to add here. I like the class, I think it captures the idea of a dragon well while still being styled after a 5e class. It even manages to do this despite being a non-standard shape. Well done!

Mind Flayer had not even occurred to me, even though at one point I thought about rust monsters for this contest. Slipped me by entirely.

Flayer Form has a lot going on; it's probably for the best that its your only 1st-level feature.
Flayer Form: When your old life is destroyed, how does that affect class levels you had prior to this class? If I'm a Fighter 6 and get ceremorphed and convince my DM to let me play that off as taking a level of Adversary, do I become Fighter 6/Adversary 1? Adversary 1 only? Adversary 7?
Mind Blast might be too strong out the gate (that's a big area to stun all at once, with a long duration, and you're pretty much guaranteed to have it once an encounter, sometimes twice). It also doesn't specify what type of save the target makes.
Past Life: See my first bullet point here. In the case of the Fighter 6/Adversary 3, where are these past life features coming from (we already know what I did in my past life and I have the levels to prove it). At Fighter 6/Adversary (Fighter Past Life) 7 do I have the features of a 7th level fighter?
Past Life also has a concern in that multiclassing proficiencies are pretty limited or give features the Adversary already has. Sorcerer/Wizard give nothing, Cleric/Druid will only add shields on top of Adversary proficiencies, Monk gives simple weapons and shortswords (assuming you didn't already take shortswords as one of your chosen weapons), Warlock gives simple weapons. Ranger is probably the strongest pick here (shields, all weapons, and one class skill). Ultimately, the choices are not equal here (though starting at level 7 they start to level out a lot more).

I think it covers all the most important parts of the Mind Flayer (psionics, tentacles, eating brains), and overall it's got the features coming at the right times, but I'd like to see Past Life reworked a little bit and I'm worried about Mind Blast's power level.

Minionmancy, my old nemesis. It looks like you've got a better handle on minioning within 5e's systems though.

Restless Bones seems like it's the core feature of the class; I'm worried that level 3 is pretty far along before it shows up. That said, it also allows the class to line up with Beastmaster Ranger (And the UA Drakewarden) for pet access.
Following's Orders: This feature makes more sense after you get Beacon of Undeath and have more than one follower. As it stands, do the creatures take their action on your turn when you use this feature, or do they act on their normal initiative, just doing what you did previously?
Beacon of Undeath: When you command your skeletons, do you command just one, or give the same command to all skeletons (Fractured Orders means that you can only give one command prior to gaining it but doesn't mention number of recipients).

I like the early framework, it just needs to iron out some wrinkles in how commands work in certain circumstances. Hope you have time to finish the remaining features as well, look forward to seeing it.

Lvl45DM!

2021-02-25, 10:33 AM

The Cultist of the World-Ender is up and limping.

Morphic tide

2021-02-25, 02:54 PM

Minionmancy, my old nemesis. It looks like you've got a better handle on minioning within 5e's systems though.

Restless Bones seems like it's the core feature of the class; I'm worried that level 3 is pretty far along before it shows up. That said, it also allows the class to line up with Beastmaster Ranger (And the UA Drakewarden) for pet access.
Following's Orders: This feature makes more sense after you get Beacon of Undeath and have more than one follower. As it stands, do the creatures take their action on your turn when you use this feature, or do they act on their normal initiative, just doing what you did previously?
Beacon of Undeath: When you command your skeletons, do you command just one, or give the same command to all skeletons (Fractured Orders means that you can only give one command prior to gaining it but doesn't mention number of recipients).

I like the early framework, it just needs to iron out some wrinkles in how commands work in certain circumstances. Hope you have time to finish the remaining features as well, look forward to seeing it.

I actually don't have much of a grip on the overarching numeric outputs of 5e since I don't really play, I just mess with functions to see what numbers come out and how that compares. And not very much of even that. But then 5e is a game heavily focused on narrow balance breakpoints, so it's easy enough to ad-hoc the number boosts you end up needing to force . Having Restless Bones at 3rd level was as impulsive as everything else, but does place it where the melee characters get their subclass to avoid causing issues from how close a Skeleton is to a 1st or 2nd level character to begin with.

Following's Orders allows you to use the Bonus Action Help/Ready for tactical shenanigans, while placing it after Beacon of Undeath would leave a level where you have two to five minions and can only tell them to do one thing. And that limitation is there for the very important reason of avoiding the table slowdown with managing a large pile of creatures. Which is why I'm trying to structure the actually-doing-things around amplifying the character themselves, instead of having much reason to actually make an attack roll with every last body they have.

The thing that caused me to basically abandon it until poked is that I need to have the base class not settle any specific party niche, because the premise was basically riffing on how there's such a large variety of skeletal "lieutenant" Undead throughout D&D history, so a Skeleton monster class can use this index as source material for subclasses. So I've been struggling to figure out the remaining gaps and how the subclass templates should be working.

Main things that can be still be worked into the base class are Fear effects (actually pretty standard to old school Undead), bumping up base minion quality, and something to do with commanding existing Undead. Definitely work accelerated Hit Dice recovery/usage efficiency in there somehow to sustain the pack of minions. I'll definitely be needing to break the "one feature per level" thing I started with for table aesthetics, which also gives the means to pack in "Is Undead" properties.

Damon_Tor

2021-02-26, 07:20 PM

A built-in race is something I hadn't seen done before. It seems alright to me, basically a dragonborn plus darkvision and the "crop" feature (dragonborn really got a short helping so I am not terribly worried about minor improvements unbalancing them).

Other editions did classes with dragon-like abilities applicable to any race, but I didn't feel like that would be a faithful execution of the theme, so a built-in custom race felt like the best possible choice.

Dragon Greed: This is a pretty minor feature for 5th level (typically a powerful level with things like Extra Attack or 3rd level spells). I'd swap its position with the 6th level Talent features since all of those seem pretty strong.

Good point, change made.

Hoarder: I would explicitly state that this bonus does not stack with similar bonuses due to magic items; otherwise its actual values are within the bounds of reasonable.

I went ahead and changed it so that it only applies to natural weapons and natural armor, which would limit any shenanigans with specially-made enchanted barding and should discourage the proliferation of dragons wielding magic swords. It still applies to charisma checks and to spell attacks. In theory a Natural Spellcaster could get a wand of the war mage and stack it with the bonus for really strong cantrips, but I'm not terribly concerned about it.

I actually don't have a lot else to add here. I like the class, I think it captures the idea of a dragon well while still being styled after a 5e class. It even manages to do this despite being a non-standard shape. Well done!

Thanks!

Morphic tide

2021-02-26, 11:11 PM

So, edit window currently has the "Is Undead" feature added, axing sub-race for Immunity to Necrotic, Poison, and Poisoned, as well as a floating +1 to an ability score up to 16 that raises the maximum by two. This means that getting an above-natural primary score needs you to start with it unusually low. But then you have two primary ability scores to the base class and the subclass probably giving a third, so there's a lot of potential value to taking a +2 race and spend only five points on a score to get 16 out of it. If you don't have a subrace, then you don't get Necrotic Resistance and eat a splittable -2. This allows for hilarious Loxidon cheese, as you can now have 6 Dexterity, yet still get 20 AC with just a shield.

Also made the Skeletons explicitly spawn gearless but accept any Light Armor or Simple Weapon, so you can customize them to more specific tasks. And removed the Wisdom replacement on the healing-other-Undead function, partly to be slightly less complicated, mostly to try and get started on fully splitting offense and defense by Constitution/Wisdom, which includes swapping Wis for Con in Beacon of Undeath's save bonus. And made it additional Undead from your features, generally, to cover any future minions.

And switched Relentless Bones from a 1/level HP bump to any-rest hit dice based on Con, as there actually isn't any neat way to define that for the controlled Undead because Hit Dice are actually separate from leveling hit points and it'd result in giving a caster-type character functionally d10 hit dice. Consequently, you could be an absurdly tanky boy, if it weren't for the fact that it directly translates to replacing one Skeleton per rest and you have immunity to Cure Wounds from being Undead.

Subject of work at the moment is figuring out some manner of minion progression (I cannot use Shadows to my intense frustration for reasons that should be obvious), hit-dice-fueled offenses with an AoE at 14 just to chip away for table space, and how to finish off Spellstitched with a precedent for 17th level features I can stand to keep up with later, because it has to directly replace 9th level spells. Maybe have the pattern be methods of self-revival with powerful closely-related functions, then the capstone is just functionally infinite hit dice so you never have anything less than maximum minions and have to die in one go.

BerzerkerUnit

2021-02-26, 11:27 PM

Feedback time!

Snip!
Gotta say I was not expecting this. They don't even have limbs!

It's a good thing you lose your hands when you level this class, because Horrid Hide and Central Eye would be multiclass-bait otherwise due to the proficiency scaling.
Eyestalks: if I read this right, it gives warlock progression? Seems reasonable.
Swift Glances: this seems like a lot of uses, especially early on. When you get it you have 3rd level glares; a 5th level sorcerer can quicken 1 3rd level spell per long rest, plus an additional 1 if they burn a 1st or 2nd level slot for sorcery points. The beheld can do it 3 times without giving up any slots. By level 20 the sorcerer starts to catch up, still being behind if you don't account for extra sorcerous points from their capstone or converting but theoretically coming out ahead if you do (though they have fewer 5th level slots, that's part of the warlock/full caster differences). Still, I'd lower the overall number.
Gazes: Warlocks can't use Mystic Arcanum to upcast, so this feature is strictly an improved version of Mystic Arcanum.
Antimagic Stare: Do you regain this stare after using your 8th/9th level gaze, or do you not regain it on a long rest if you have used those gazes? The wording could be interpreted either way. If the idea is that it consumes your future slots, I would just make it consume a slot when cast and let the gaze mechanics cover its recharge.
What benefit, other than descriptive, do you get for growing additional eye stalks? It happens in a few different places.

Death Tyrant: Ghostly Eyestalk doesn't have a usage limitation. Necrotic Gaze consumes one of your uses of Central Eye, correct? It just says you use the feature, but "one of your uses of" is more common wording (see Valor Bard or Whispers Bard).
Lucid Dreamer: ESP has a lot of uses. It's not too bad until level 6 (roughly equivalent to a flexible Expertise until it runs out), but it does mean a lot of things to track for the player.
Rebel's Handsome Horror's size change effect is redundant (as the base features increase your size to medium at level 3 and only the Eye Tyrant can become large; that temporarily).

Overall, it's a faithful rendition of the creature, but I'm worried about all of its charge-based features being both A: available relatively early and B: proficiency calculated. A Beholder (Lucid Dreamer) 6/ Wizard XX seems like an easy abuse situation. The separation of Glances, Glares, and Gazes also means that the Beheld interacts oddly with things that affect spellcasting (for example, if your beholder gets a Wand of the War Mage, can they use that or does it not apply? What about Barbarian/Beheld multiclasses, can the Glare while in a rage? Can glares be used to cast spells from other sources, or vice versa?). Finally, number of eyestalks doesn't seem to do anything (other than causing you to lose cantrips if you're a rebel and you alter them away).

As always, thanks so much for your feedback!
Losing Hands. A hardline DM might rule that without hands you can't perform somatics for regular spells. My wording explicitly says your eyestalks work for your Beheld spells (Glance, Glare, Gaze).

I've adjusted the wording so Central Eye and others scale with "Levels in this Class" rather than level. Proficiency scaling seems to be the new norm and if it's good enough for WotC it's good enough for me.

Adjusted the wording of Antimagical Stare so it's more clear on how to use more often (1/day unless you spend the 8th or 9th level slot).

Note: Swift Glances are quickened Glances, IE Cantrips only. Lots of uses bc it's only ever throwing 2 cantrips. Since Eldritch Blast isn't on the list, this is not a problem. It exists to invoke the classic Beholder "Beams everywhere!" Eye Rays and be something to do when you're out of Glares and Gazes without being a default action. A Warlock has EBlast to fall back on, Beheld don't.

The extra eyes are mostly flavor, akin to the Rune Knight's 3d4 inch growth feature. They're also a buffer in case you play a meatgrinder game where people lose limbs.

Will add limit to Ghostly Eyestalk
Lucid Dreamer Psi dice are standard for the feature
Rebel's Handsome horror was written under an earlier draft's assumptions (large by default). Deleted.

In all respects the Beheld Glances and Glares subscribe to spellcasting rules except for using them to fuel spellcasting from other classes and vice versa, if I've left "spell slot" in the language I'll try and remove it. I'm curious what the Lucid Dreamer/Wizard exploit you thought of is.

Morphic tide

2021-02-27, 05:52 AM

So, with five hours of actually remarkably firmly keeping to the task, all I have is a bundle of rewrites (Spellstitched now uses Glyph of Warding directly and Beacon of Undeath is Proficiency based to not have a God-stat) and a 2nd-level Unarmed Strike bump. +1d6 Necrotic damage and Con-based Save against Fear and hit die recovery, with healing based on total damage regardless. This does not render them a Melee Weapon Attack, and they are therefor ineligible for Smite spells. I must contemplate this further to properly support this with the first melee subclass...

Lot of the time loss is because of inconclusive research and "talking to the teddy bear" reasoning. Deleted drafts on other forums where I just layed out how things were and the issues I had, realized some stuff was stupid, and refined the ideas in question, without ever actually answering the things missing. Quick calculation on damage output:

Each Skeleton can use a 1d8 Greatclub, adding +6 for your Wisdom modifier if they are mirroring your attack. With the full set, this is 7d8+42 damage per round, average 77.5, before the attack rolls, which at the limit get +12 from your Proficiency and above-natural Wisdom. Animate Objects gives 10d4+40, average 65 damage per round with a +8 modifier. Damage-oriented Skeletons have 25 HP and AC 14, Animated Objects have three more bodies to kill, 20 HP, and AC 18. In both cases, Advantage is automatic because the target can't not be flanked when attacked by that many things.

Definitely need to finish the base features before calculating total DPR pre-subclass and pre-feat to compare against Fighter limits to thusly calculate the necessary contribution of the melee subclass, and deliberately somewhat overdo it so the punch-to-heal works correctly and magic items don't ruin it completely.

In the time of typing this post, I also finished considering the basic pieces of what to do with the capstone. Namely, make your recovery verge on "Yes" and turn excess hit dice into various upsides, giving a cap of 53 HP on controlled Undead below that, up to 53 temporary HP, and as much as 53 Necrotic damage on a punch (defined as one-quarter your own maximum health). Alongside a chance of getting half of CR or Level as hit dice whenever something dies near you, with the latter meaning you can consume the other players or any sidekicks for a hefty chunk of output.

To my understanding, this is still not that nasty compared to how Moon Druid or Wizard capstones can screw with campaigns. Any suggestions on more interesting things than just "have all the hit dice and dump overflow into meat" that keep up with the top-end stupidity outside arbitrarily large control expansion would be appreciated. As it is, I needs some sleep!

BerzerkerUnit

2021-02-27, 10:57 AM

So, with five hours of actually remarkably firmly keeping to the task, all I have is a bundle of rewrites (Spellstitched now uses Glyph of Warding directly and Beacon of Undeath is Proficiency based to not have a God-stat) and a 2nd-level Unarmed Strike bump. +1d6 Necrotic damage and Con-based Save against Fear and hit die recovery, with healing based on total damage regardless. This does not render them a Melee Weapon Attack, and they are therefor ineligible for Smite spells. I must contemplate this further to properly support this with the first melee subclass...

Lot of the time loss is because of inconclusive research and "talking to the teddy bear" reasoning. Deleted drafts on other forums where I just layed out how things were and the issues I had, realized some stuff was stupid, and refined the ideas in question, without ever actually answering the things missing. Quick calculation on damage output:

snip...

Bold by me: RE smites, I cannot figure out what difference this makes. Like I understand not smiting with something like a spell ray which is already intended to scale with a bunch of dice, but what dice adder to unarmed strike risks breaking the game? In fact, if anyone can point me to a link or just outline why there needs to be the mechanical distinction between unarmed strikes, natural weapons, and weapon attacks, I'd love to hear it. Like I get the narrative device of stunning strike being a barehanded technique, but if you've seen Jet Li in Kiss of the Dragon or Naruto, or any of the other billion martial arts anime, pinpoint strikes with the tip of a staff or clapping in someone's face suddenly do something the Stunned mechanic satisfactorily emulates. In short, I don't think you need to make the distinction.

The second bolded/italicized part about drafts on other forums might invalidate your entry. I don't run these contests but I could swear the rules generally include "if you've posted it elsewhere, you can't use it here."

Damon_Tor

2021-02-27, 11:43 AM

Re: The Genie

I love this class.

I feel like the Dao's defensive abilities need to be improved: maybe his tHP should be 1/class level. He doesn't have the skirmisher chops the others have, so bringing up to melee class HP seems appropriate. The ability's use of an action keeps it balanced even with a much higher value.

the Marid seems to really lack any identity until 15th level. I would give it a lesser version of the water-field ability they can use starting earlier and more often, with a much smaller radius (5 or 10 feet) EDIT: Personally I would also include a sidebar with a reprint of the rules for what combat underwater means for creatures without a swim speed.

The other two subclasses are great, very well designed skirmishers.

Morphic tide

2021-02-27, 09:03 PM

Bold by me: RE smites, I cannot figure out what difference this makes. Like I understand not smiting with something like a spell ray which is already intended to scale with a bunch of dice, but what dice adder to unarmed strike risks breaking the game?
It's not about breaking the game, it's that you heal based on the total damage at all times. Which would mean healing for half of every Smite, Sneak Attack, or Fighter hit. And having it apply to Manufactured Weapons would be a bit much before 5th, as it's doubling or more any Simple weapon that isn't a Greatclub or Light Crossbow, where surprisingly few melee classes can gather that +3.5 average damage.

Sneak Attack is limited to Finesse weapons and once per turn for what is less than a Monk can still do with this before 5th level; it is only at 7th level or higher that a Rogue gets more feature-based DPR from Sneak Attack than a Monk gets from this, and the Monk is healing for half their full damage, not just the Necrotic. (edit: Actually, Monk does get Extra Attack, so it's back to even at level 7 for the Flurry getting 1d6 per hit matching a Sneak Attack, and the average damage is quite well ahead for the fact it's four separate hits)

The second bolded/italicized part about drafts on other forums might invalidate your entry. I don't run these contests but I could swear the rules generally include "if you've posted it elsewhere, you can't use it here."
Drafts as in the forums had post-saving features that I had to manually deal with to delete the draft so I could make other posts in the thread later, and it wasn't the outright rules text, but rather going over the mechanical results at the end for balancing and trying to pin down qualifiers for the second minion type. Neither posted nor the actual mechanics, just asking "Hey, how do I compete with AC 14 25 HP Skeletons that get any Simple weapon, +11 to hit, and +5 to save, with the last two working on anything else used?" and not actually clicking the "post" button.

Guess I'll just give up finding a solid existing creature and whip up a Serpentir, using a CR calculator to get the base statistics roughly in line, as a hardcore Grappler monster doesn't seem likely to happen in 5e (with me using the upper bounds it gave for CR 3 offense and CR 5 defense on the desired attack bonus and HP, then making it CR 5 for the Grapple functions). And I'll note that Beacon of Undeath does not change controls and Following's Orders calls out Bonus Actions, while Fractured Orders cares that it's "part of" an action. So in exchange for being beefier than the Skeletons are capable of, they're going to ask for your full Action to change tasks.