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View Full Version : D&D 5e/Next Let's make some stacking classes



Greywander
2021-01-04, 07:05 PM
This is for a big overhaul mod I've mentioned before. The short version is that classes are cut down to just four levels, and you chain together multiple classes as you level up. A 20th level character, for example, would have completed five different classes. This opens up a lot more customization options for players. It also removes the need for subclasses, most of which can be reworked into full classes at some point (there's 100+ subclasses already, too many to convert immediately).

Since classes are just four levels long, we can easily standardize what each class will get at specific levels:

1st - Core Feature. The defining trait of that class. Everyone, even novices, have access to this feature. Some classes might have the same core features, in which case there should be stacking benefits.
2nd - Gimmick. A trait that is unique to this class specifically. Focuses on being mechanically interesting.
3rd - Ribbon. A trait that is unique to this class specifically. Focuses on roleplay and soft benefits.
4th - Capstone. Your prize for completing the class.

Now, there's still room to change this; for example, I might swap the levels you get the gimmick and ribbon. But this should be a pretty solid layout. If you're wondering, ASIs/feats will probably be purchased separately with XP, with the cost increasing each time. This gives you more control over when and how many feats/ASIs you get.

Another quick note on spellcasting: This is something that's stumped me on how to properly implement it within this system of stacking classes, particularly with casters who have different styles of casting. For now, what I'm thinking is that there will be a generic "Power User" feature, which includes spellcasting but also accounts for nonmagical powers like psionics or mutant abilities. More or less this feature will work like a spells known caster using the spell points variant. As you level up, you'll be able to cast your spells at higher levels, even if you don't pick up any other caster classes, but you also won't get any more spell points. Stacking caster classes will give you more spell points. This allows you to branch out and pick up one or two noncaster classes without locking yourself out of the highest level spells, but you'll pay for it with fewer spell points.

Some caster classes will have unique spellcasting methods; usually these will operate by trading away spell points for whatever the new spellcasting method gives you (e.g. pact magic slots), but you're not forced to make this trade, and can only trade part of your spell points if you wish. This allows you to make hybrid casters who use multiple spellcasting systems. In addition, some caster classes might get a second core feature or a gimmick that adds a unique twist to their casting. Wizards, for example, might gain their spellbook as a separate feature, allowing them to prepare extra spells (in addition to their known spells), or cast rituals. Every class, even noncaster classes, will also have their own spell list; each time you take a new class, you add their spells to your personal list. So for example, a wizard/fighter would gain some combat spells from the fighter list, even though a fighter can't normally cast spells.

Okay, I guess that wasn't really a quick note.

I figure a good place to start is by converting the vanilla classes. I haven't figured out what all I'll be changing as far as rules go, but let's assume for now that things work similarly to vanilla D&D 5e. For now, lets focus on the rough concepts of class features, rather than detailed write ups. Ideally, we would just identify four major features for each class, and reduce the class to just those four features. However, this may not fight the core/gimmick/ribbon/capstone paradigm that we've set up. Also, some abilities might not be appropriate for a low level character (remember, you'll only be 4th level when you get the capstone). For example, Spell Mastery might be more appropriate for an Archmage class, which isn't available until at least, say, 9th level (i.e. your third class).

I'll go ahead and write up a few classes in order to get feedback. I also welcome anyone who wants to make their own attempt to convert a class, though it might be difficult without knowing other aspects of this overhaul that I haven't mentioned here.

Let's start with something simple, like the Fighter:

Core: Combat Superiority. Stolen from the Battle Master. I might include the option to use infinite d4 superiority dice, so you can always use one of your maneuvers.
Gimmick: Fighting Style, Second Wind. Basically the same.
Ribbon: Remarkable Athlete. Stolen from the Champion.
Capstone: Extra Attack. Fighter staple. Works especially nicely with your combat maneuvers, since you can now use two per turn.

Let's see what we can do with another simple class, the Rogue:

Core: Expertise, Sneak Attack. Sneak Attack doesn't scale except by getting it multiple times from other classes.
Gimmick: Cunning Action. Of course.
Ribbon: Thieves' Cant. Feels like we might need something else here, but maybe Thieves' Cant can be expanded to include things like hobo signs and other things that make it easy to find illicit persons and locations, like the black market.
Capstone: Evasion. I wasn't sure what to put here, but this seems like it could work.

Now let's try a spellcaster, like the Cleric:

Core: Power User, Theurgy. Theurgy might allow you to convert spell points into extra spells prepared from your list. Like a wizard, but no futzing around with a spellbook. Not completely sure about this yet.
Gimmick: Bless, Bane. Considering how useful these spells are, let's just make them straight up class features. Thematic, too!
Ribbon: Turn Undead. Classic cleric feature, ribbon because it's not useful if you never face undead. Might allows clerics to choose Command Undead as an alternative.
Capstone: Divine Intervention. This necessarily needs to change compared to vanilla, might run it similar to a Wish.

Let's end by tackling wizards:

Core: Power User, Wizardry. Wizardry allows you to convert spell points into Vancian style spells prepped into specific slots (like oldschool D&D). Limited to spells known or prepared (via spellbook), but you can get a lot more castings than normal if you can correctly guess which spells you'll be needing, and at which levels. Useful since you can choose to only convert a few spell points instead of all of them, assuming you know a few spells that you'll almost certainly cast or want to have handy (e.g. Mage Armor, Feather Fall, Fireball).
Gimmick: Spellbook. Copying spells works as in vanilla, but using your personal spell list. You can prepare spells equal to your INT mod from your spellbook, and cast rituals from your spellbook.
Ribbon: Magesight. Honestly wasn't sure what to put here. How about a permanent Detect Magic effect out to 10 feet?
Capstone: Spellbook Mastery. You can cast a spell directly from your spellbook without preparing it. Usable INT mod times (or maybe proficiency bonus times?), refreshes on a long rest. You can also use Wizardry to prep a spell you don't know or have prepared as long as it's in your spellbook.

I'm not completely happy with all of these, but it feels like we're off to a good start at least. Can you think of any ways to improve these? Or maybe you'd like to take a stab at one of the other classes? Or a subclass conversion? I'm also not sure that any of the ribbon features except Thieves' Cant really qualifies as a ribbon.

Baniff
2021-01-05, 12:44 PM
I really like this idea.

I think the level 3 ability should progress things like sneak attack or superiority dice.

For spellcasting, I saw your other post about struggling with stacking multiple casting types. I like your current idea much better than trying to mix different vancian types together.

I'm inspired to start making some 4 level classes :)

noob
2021-01-05, 02:59 PM
I do think intuitively that fighters could grant spells from the EK list and rogue spells from the arcane trickster list.
How will you avoid what the 5e designers probably did not want of deciding "I am ready to spend like 4 level 9 spells and am here only for cantrips and burst fire"
It would probably involve fast increase in spell point cost for spells above level 5.

Greywander
2021-01-07, 02:37 AM
I think the level 3 ability should progress things like sneak attack or superiority dice.
I'd like to see if I can restrict scaling/progression to only happen when you take a new class, rather than within the same class. Particularly when each class is only four levels. For Sneak Attack, it would probably only progress by taking other classes that also get Sneak Attack. For superiority dice, I think I might make them scale every four levels or so, while picking up another class with Combat Superiority might just give you more superiority dice. Still thinking about that one.


For spellcasting, I saw your other post about struggling with stacking multiple casting types. I like your current idea much better than trying to mix different vancian types together.
Yes, I think this will work better, though there are obviously still kinks that need to be worked out. There's also an even older thread discussing the same topic from a while back, and it goes more into depth on some of the changes I wanted to make to the magic system. Sometimes things don't work out the way you wanted them to, but that can lead to innovating something new and possibly better than what you originally had in mind.


I'm inspired to start making some 4 level classes :)
Try it! This model should make homebrew a lot easier.


I do think intuitively that fighters could grant spells from the EK list and rogue spells from the arcane trickster list.
How will you avoid what the 5e designers probably did not want of deciding "I am ready to spend like 4 level 9 spells and am here only for cantrips and burst fire"
It would probably involve fast increase in spell point cost for spells above level 5.
I'm not sure I understand your question. If you're asking why you can't just drop four 9th levels spells at once, the spell point variant rules already take this into consideration: you can only cast one spell for each level of 6th and up per long rest. So even if you have enough spell points to cast four 9th level spells, you can still only cast one.

As for spell lists, I'll need to rewrite the spells themselves first. One thing I'd like to do is rework each spell so that they don't have an associated level. Any spell can be a cantrip, or a 1st level spell, or any other level. For some spells, this shouldn't be too hard, as scaling would be fairly straightforward, but other spells are going to be a pain. For the EK and AT specifically, as well as other hybrid classes, I'm still wondering which core feature they should get. I suppose in these two cases specifically, they should get spellcasting, but what about something like a paladin? I suspect the paladin will be spell-less. Ranger, too, probably. Subclasses reworked into full classes might be casters, though.


I'm not particularly happy with the Ribbon features I proposed in the first post, so I'm mulling over replacements.

For the Fighter, what about something like a Hoplology feature? Basically, you know everything about weapons, so you get advantage on Perception and Investigation checks involving weapons, and to History checks to recall information about weapons.

For Rogues, I wonder if Thieves' Cant shouldn't be a Thief-specific trait (Thief being reworked into a full class). Perhaps the Thief should replace the Rogue as a starter class. I'm not sure what a rogue would get for their ribbon; maybe something to do with their roguish charm. That, or some kind of benefit when working with beggars and lowlifes.

For Cleric, Turn Undead isn't really a ribbon, it's more of a gimmick (albeit, not a particularly strong one). A proper ribbon might be something like the Ceremony spell (but reworked as a class feature).

And for Wizards... I dunno, I kind of wanted to do the Presidigitation spell, but I also knew that other classes, like bards, would want that, and as per the rules in the OP, ribbons are unique to that class. Maybe instead they could get something like a sort of magical awareness. Basically, they're huge nerds about magic, so they just kind of know it when they see/feel it. A proper Detect Magic spell would be needed to get the details, but they might be able to just know when a magical item or effect is within, say, 60 feet of them.

noob
2021-01-07, 03:05 AM
Necromancer: I was thinking of having a minion master and a hates undead necromancer(since those are the two WOTC archetype of necromancers) but I am not sure it is a good idea to split the archetypes in terms of conceptual space.

Greywander
2021-01-07, 04:58 PM
Something like a grave cleric might fill the niche of a necromancer focused on types of necromancy other than creating undead. Because of the way the class stacking system works, you could start as a wizard, then go grave cleric (not sure what it would be called, probably not a "cleric") in order to make a necromancer wizard that wasn't about raising undead. Likewise, if you want to be a cleric who creates undead, you could start as a cleric and then go necromancer.