Magic items and reality revision

[Yak folklore]

Reality revision can explicitly create psionic items ("Create a psionic item, or add to the powers of an existing psionic item {see XP cost below*}"). But how does this work, and what are the advantages?
Does it reduce the creation time to 1 action?
The way I see it is that this is the most likely to be the indented use.

Can you ignore level/spell prerequisites?
I think this is the other most likely to be the intent.

No GP cost?
My logic here is that it stated the xp but not gp cost to be paid.

How does it interact with magic transparency? (I'm most interested on what people have to say on this one)
This would be insane, and severely decrease the power difference between a psion and erudite (at least after 17th level)

*The xp cost is either the normal 5,000 OR the stander xp cost of whatever you are doing, so bigger magic items won't cost more xp

[magicalmagicman]

Reality revision can explicitly create psionic items ("Create a psionic item, or add to the powers of an existing psionic item {see XP cost below*}"). But how does this work, and what are the advantages?

XP is easier than gold. With Wish you could sacrifice a level or two and get epic items like Rod of Excellent Magic. And you can cut the xp cost in half with various cost reducers, or eliminate the cost completely.

Reality Revision is a weaker than Wish simply because psionics has less support. I don't think there are any cost reducers for psionic powers, nor any epic psionic items, but the main advantage is bypassing feat requirements and using xp instead of gold. Characters always have and will get xp. Gold requires a shop to buy materials from.


Does it reduce the creation time to 1 action?
Yes


Can you ignore level/spell prerequisites?
Yes. You ignore all prerequisites and costs except the xp cost, which is doubled.


No GP cost?
No gp cost.


How does it interact with magic transparency? (I'm most interested on what people have to say on this one)
It doesn't. Magic Psionic Transparency just makes spell resistance affect psionic powers, and psionic resistance affect spells. Full stop. It does not let you treat magic items as psionic items, nor psionic items as magic items. It does not let you treat spells as powers, nor does it let you treat powers as spells. People often use magic psionic transparency as an excuse to get access to Psychic Reformation via Limited Wish, but it doesn't work.

Reality Revision can create magic items u pto 25000gp in value, but if you want more expensive magic items then you have to somehow get access to Wish.

[Maat Mons]

Actually, there is at least one psionic cost-reduction trick.

The Getting Wired (http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/psm/20031225a) article has a feat that allows Psionic Tattoos of up to 9th level, and a special tattoo called a Capacitor that lets you activate Psionic Tattoos without expending them.

You just pay the xp cost of Reality Revision once, while creating a Psionic Tattoo of it, and then you use it over and over with the Capacitor. Add on a Transducer so you can do it multiple times a day (albeit at a cost of 34 power points each time), instead of once every 17 days. I'd also add in an Inducer keyed to "when the attached Capacitor is full" to avoid any possibility of getting mixed up and activating the Reality Revision tattoo when there isn't enough juice, which actually would expend it.

The same trick works for Psychic Chiurgery, which is why high level psionic characters always know every psionic power that exists, regardless of class list.

[Yak folklore]

Ok, I have three takeaways here, one, thank you for pointing out the XP thing, I had not noticed that line, two, the 25,000 gp limit is for nonpsionic items, three, uuuuuuuuummmmmmmm thought bottle thank you?

[magicalmagicman]

Ok, I have three takeaways here, one, thank you for pointing out the XP thing, I had not noticed that line, two, the 25,000 gp limit is for nonpsionic items, three, uuuuuuuuummmmmmmm thought bottle thank you?

Magic Items are nonpsionic so you can make magic items upto 25,000gp. Likewise you can make psionic items upto 25,000gp using wish. If you read Expanded Psionics Handbook, if a psionic power doesn't affect magic then the text explicitly says nonmagical object or creature. Check out psionic minor creation for example. So there's no room for alternate interpretations here. Reality Revision makes magic items upto 25,000gp.

Thought Bottles might not work. The FAQ directly says it doesn't offset xp loss from item crafting or casting spells. The Thought Bottle text says it's more powerful than resotration, but it's not absolute, it still can't do certain things like restore negative levels bestowed by a holy weapon. In other words, what Thought Bottles can't do is left vague, so it's upto the DM what xp Thought Bottles can restore and what it can't, and the FAQ says you can't for items and spells, so that might make a DM rule that you can't.

So run it by your DM first.

[Crichton]

With Wish you could sacrifice a level or two and get epic items like Rod of Excellent Magic.

Well, not really:



You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot manifest a power with an XP cost unless you have enough XP to spare (http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/psionicPowersOverview.htm#xPCostXP)




You could potentially find yourself with enough xp to level up twice (minus one xp), I believe, and spend that amount, but you can't use Wish or Reality Revision to create items that cost you so much xp you'd drop a level.

[magicalmagicman]

Well, not really:







You could potentially find yourself with enough xp to level up twice (minus one xp), I believe, and spend that amount, but you can't use Wish or Reality Revision to create items that cost you so much xp you'd drop a level.

You can delay leveling up indefinitely. PHB isn't clear, all it has is the line that says if you have enough xp to level up but you want to make a magic item, you can delay leveling up until you get into an appropriate environment to craft magic items.

Rules of the Game articles written by Skip Williams himself however clarify the matter saying you can delay leveling up indefinitely.

[icefractal]

Characters always have and will get xp. Gold requires a shop to buy materials from.I think this varies by campaign. In most that I've played, characters who were capable of casting Wish were also capable of teleporting to large cities where both magic items and raw materials for crafting were available.

Meanwhile the usual rule / assumption on XP (IME) has been that it only comes from 'real' encounters that serve a purpose and pose a real risk, so "farming" it isn't an option.

In light of that, I've seen Wish very rarely used for creating items, unless:
A) The caster is cheating away the cost by some method.
B) The item is relatively inexpensive but very custom (say a Scroll of Simulacrum of a specific person, or of some obscure spell that only exists on a domain or PrC's list).

[Crichton]

You can delay leveling up indefinitely. PHB isn't clear, all it has is the line that says if you have enough xp to level up but you want to make a magic item, you can delay leveling up until you get into an appropriate environment to craft magic items.

Rules of the Game articles written by Skip Williams himself however clarify the matter saying you can delay leveling up indefinitely.



I'm not seeing anything unclear at all in the PHB text on the subject:



When a character earns enough XP, he or she attains a new character level.

When your character’s XP total reaches at least the minimum XP needed for a new character level, he or she “goes up a level.”


A character can advance only one level at a time. If, for some extraordinary reason, a character’s XP reward from a single adventure would be enough to advance two or more levels at once, he or she instead advances one level and gains just enough XP to be 1 XP short of the next level. Any excess experience points are not retained.



A character cannot spend so much XP on an item that he or she loses a level. However, upon gaining enough XP to attain a new level, he or she can immediately expend XP on creating an item rather than keeping the XP to advance a level.

(emphasis mine)


That's pretty crystal clear text that leveling up isn't an optional thing. When you get enough XP, you level up. Not 'after' you get enough XP. WHEN you get enough. You can, instead, immediately expend XP for crafting, which then puts you below the threshold for the next level. That's the only exception: immediately spend the XP for crafting, or you level up.


Thus it's pretty clear that leveling up is not a choice you make when you can afford the XP for it, it's an automatic result of gaining that much XP.


Anything Skip writes in a Rules of the Game article on the WotC webpage would have to very clearly and explicitly say it's superceding and contradicting this text in the PHB, which I'm fairly sure it neither says, nor has the authority to do, under the Primary Source rules. (I think I see the text you're referring to, in his article Making Magic Items part one, but it doesn't have the authority to supercede the PHB text, which clearly uses the word 'immediately' when referring to the same thing, and is thus just a houserule on his part that contradicts the core rules. A good houserule, if not abused, and one I tend to use myself, but a houserule nonetheless.)



There are other tricks for extending crafting XP, but simply choosing to accumulate it rather than leveling up is not a choice you get to make in the RAW.

[magicalmagicman]

I think this varies by campaign. In most that I've played, characters who were capable of casting Wish were also capable of teleporting to large cities where both magic items and raw materials for crafting were available.

Meanwhile the usual rule / assumption on XP (IME) has been that it only comes from 'real' encounters that serve a purpose and pose a real risk, so "farming" it isn't an option.

In light of that, I've seen Wish very rarely used for creating items, unless:
A) The caster is cheating away the cost by some method.
B) The item is relatively inexpensive but very custom (say a Scroll of Simulacrum of a specific person, or of some obscure spell that only exists on a domain or PrC's list).

There is a third reason. Get access to epic magic items. Rod of Excellent Magic is not obtainable in a level 1-20 game without using Wish and sacrificing enough xp because of its ridiculous cost.


I'm not seeing anything unclear at all in the PHB text on the subject:







(emphasis mine)


That's pretty crystal clear text that leveling up isn't an optional thing. When you get enough XP, you level up. Not 'after' you get enough XP. WHEN you get enough. You can, instead, immediately expend XP for crafting, which then puts you below the threshold for the next level. That's the only exception: immediately spend the XP for crafting, or you level up.


Thus it's pretty clear that leveling up is not a choice you make when you can afford the XP for it, it's an automatic result of gaining that much XP.


Anything Skip writes in a Rules of the Game article on the WotC webpage would have to very clearly and explicitly say it's superceding and contradicting this text in the PHB, which I'm fairly sure it neither says, nor has the authority to do, under the Primary Source rules. (I think I see the text you're referring to, in his article Making Magic Items part one, but it doesn't have the authority to supercede the PHB text, which clearly uses the word 'immediately' when referring to the same thing, and is thus just a houserule on his part that contradicts the core rules. A good houserule, if not abused, and one I tend to use myself, but a houserule nonetheless.)



There are other tricks for extending crafting XP, but simply choosing to accumulate it rather than leveling up is not a choice you get to make in the RAW.

It's been a while so I couldn't hunt down everything

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040810a

XP Cost (XP): When you cast a spell with an XP cost, you pay that cost when you cast the spell, even if the spell fails for some reason, and your experience total is immediately reduced. According to the rules, you can never spend so much experience that you lose a level -- though you can delay gaining a level and instead keep your experience points available for spellcasting (or item creation). If you do so, you always can change your mind. That is, you can gain a new level any time you have enough experience to do so, even after delaying awhile. For example, suppose you're a 9th-level cleric, which gives you access to the commune spell, which has an XP cost of 100 XP. Your current XP total is 45,052. You have enough experience to become a 10th-level character, but if you do you won't be able to cast your commune spell because doing so would reduce your experience total to 44,952 and you'd drop back to 9th level. You can choose to delay becoming a 10th-level character until your experience total is 45,100 gp or more. Once you pass that milestone, you can add a character level. Once you make the decision to add the level, however, you're bound to the rule preventing you from spending so much XP that you lose a level.
http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a

According to the rules, you can never spend so much experience that you lose a level -- though you can delay gaining a level and instead keep your experience points available for item creation (or spellcasting). If you do so, you always can change your mind. That is, you can gain a new level anytime you have enough experience to do so, even after delaying awhile. See Rules of the Game: Reading Spell Descriptions for information on delaying level advancement.


XP Cost (XP): Some powerful spells (such as wish, commune, and miracle) entail an experience point cost to you. No spell, not even restoration, can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds
This one lacks the word "immediate"

I couldn't locate the text about waiting until the correct crafting environment at this time.

Worst comes to worst just acquire a template that skyrockets your LA so it takes a while to level up. Something like Nar Fiendbond.

[Crichton]

It's been a while so I couldn't hunt down everything

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20040810a

http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/rg/20041207a


Indeed, that's the text from Skip's articles I found, as I mentioned. His article is in direct contradiction to the the rules text on PHB 58, and PHB 88, cited above. Thus the Primary Source rule invalidates his claim, and the PHB text takes precedence (in terms of actual RAW)



This one lacks the word "immediate"


Indeed, but the lack of the word 'immediate' does not imply the presence of permission to hold off indefinitely. Reading that text as is does not contradict either of the general rules texts on XP and leveling up, and indeed the sentence 'However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level' does not contain any clause granting permission to hold your XP beyond the specific moment that sentence itself describes: 'on gaining enough XP.' Note that it never says anything about 'after' you've gained it.



I couldn't locate the text about waiting until the correct crafting environment at this time.

I seem to recall something about that too, but I'm not sure where it is.




Worst comes to worst just acquire a template that skyrockets your LA so it takes a while to level up. Something like Nar Fiendbond.

Aye, that or one of several other tricks to help with XP for crafting and such.




I myself have gone back and forth on this issue (even here on the forums) but it seems pretty clear that the actual RAW is that if you don't immediately spend the XP, you go up a level when you cross the XP threshold. Not 'you can' or 'you may' go up a level. Simply that you *do* go up a level.



That said, there's a fair amount of wiggle room in actual campaigns, not the least of which is that not every DM gives out the XP at the same intervals. PHB 58 states that XP is awarded at the end of each adventure, but most DMs I know (myself included) tend to grant the XP at the end of each session, or even the end of each encounter, simply due to not having to then keep track of the bookkeeping over the whole adventure. Because of this, I myself tend to houserule allowing the banking of XP, but only up to the 'next level minus one xp' rule from the PHB.

[Jack_Simth]

With Wish you could sacrifice a level or twoYou're explicitly NOT permitted to spend enough XP to reduce yourself in level. See here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):
Some powerful spells entail an experience point cost to you. No spell can restore the XP lost in this manner. You cannot spend so much XP that you lose a level, so you cannot cast the spell unless you have enough XP to spare. However, you may, on gaining enough XP to attain a new level, use those XP for casting a spell rather than keeping them and advancing a level. The XP are treated just like a material component—expended when you cast the spell, whether or not the casting succeeds. (emphasis added)

[magicalmagicman]

You're explicitly NOT permitted to spend enough XP to reduce yourself in level. See here (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/magicOverview/spellDescriptions.htm#components):(emphasis added)

I meant bank enough xp for a level or two and use it on Wish.

[icefractal]

I don't think you literally can. You have to be 17th level to cast Wish, which means the total XP available to bank before hitting 20th is 17k+18k+19k = 54k
Meanwhile Wishing for a Rod of Excellent Magic will cost 2*26k+5k = 57k

So if you're starting out with "enough XP to be 20th level", you can't afford it. And if you're doing this in play then it means sitting around at 17th level while the rest of your party gets close to 20th, to get the one item, and being notably behind in entering epic levels.

But yes, in a campaign where level is capped at 20th but you still keep banking XP, might as well spend it on something. Although in a no-Epic game, does that Rod even exist?