Question about Shadow Illusion (Su)

[Max Caysey]

So, playing the Killer Gnome, being a Shadowcraft Mage, using Shadow Illusion to turn my level 0 silent image into any Sorc/Wiz conjuration (summoning/creation) or Evocation spell, I encountered something which I'm unsure of how to handle.

I'm naturally using all the tricks, heigthening my level 0 to level 9, but only using a level 8 slot to have it count as level 10, so I can emulate any spell level. This is all well and cool and the quasi-reality is above 100%.

But, I'm unsure of what level I should be calculating save DC... The reason is because the Shadow Illusion (Su) ability states that the altered spell functions identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, except that the spell's strength equals 10% per level of the figment spell used.

When reading those two spells, they state that regardless of the result of the save to disbelieve, an affected creature is also allowed any save (or spell resistance) that the spell being simulated allows, but the save DC is set according to shadow evocation’s level (5th) (4th for Shadow Conjuration) rather than the spell's normal level.

So, if I have heightened my level 0 silent image to level 9, and earth spell makes it level 10, but easy meta-magic makes it use a level 8 slot. What would then be the save DC (10+int+spell level) of a level 9 Shadow Evocation/Conjuration spell???

One the one hand, heighten spell says that all effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level, but Shadow Illusion specifically calls out that any altered spells function identically to the shadow conjuration or shadow evocation spell, which seems to have a fixed save calculated from 5th or 4th level respectively.


Cheers!

[Xervous]

Not all shadow evocations or conjurations must be the exact level listed in the book. Listing it as “shadow evocation’s level (5th)” is different from “a 5th level spell”. The parenthetical seems to imply that it is merely listing a value as a convenient reference. Throughout the PHB parenthesis are used to clarify or list common relevant knowledge that typically isn’t exhaustive.

Shadow evocation with heightened applied could be a 9th level spell. Reading its text with the (5th) as a hard value produces an inconsistency as 9 is not equal to 5. Thus we can infer that it is a listing of convenience.

[Darg]

Spell DC is based on spell level. heighten spell increases the spell level. While Shadow Illusion functions like those spells, it is not those spells. Therefore it uses the heightened spell level.

Easy Metamagic also does not work the way you think it does:


Choose a metamagic feat you already have. When preparing or casting a spell modified by that feat, lower the spell-slot cost by one. You can never reduce the spell-slot cost below one level higher than the spell's actual level. For example, taking this feat for the Quicken Spell feat reduces the spell slot cost of a quickened spell from four levels higher than the spell's actual level to three levels higher than the spell's actual level.

Unlike other metamagics, heighten spell actually increases the actual spell level of the spell. Meaning it can't benefit from metamagic reducers generally.

[sreservoir]

For comparison, note that greater shadow evocation refers to shadow evocation without overriding the "according to shadow evocation's level" clause, so a reading that would set shadow illusion spells to a 5th-level DC should also do the same for greater shadow evocation, which seems absurd.

[Max Caysey]

Not all shadow evocations or conjurations must be the exact level listed in the book. Listing it as “shadow evocation’s level (5th)” is different from “a 5th level spell”. The parenthetical seems to imply that it is merely listing a value as a convenient reference. Throughout the PHB parenthesis are used to clarify or list common relevant knowledge that typically isn’t exhaustive.

Shadow evocation with heightened applied could be a 9th level spell. Reading its text with the (5th) as a hard value produces an inconsistency as 9 is not equal to 5. Thus we can infer that it is a listing of convenience.


Spell DC is based on spell level. heighten spell increases the spell level. While Shadow Illusion functions like those spells, it is not those spells. Therefore it uses the heightened spell level.


For comparison, note that greater shadow evocation refers to shadow evocation without overriding the "according to shadow evocation's level" clause, so a reading that would set shadow illusion spells to a 5th-level DC should also do the same for greater shadow evocation, which seems absurd.

Thanks for the answers. That is was I thought, but just wanted to make sure! So thanks!




Easy Metamagic also does not work the way you think it does:



Unlike other metamagics, heighten spell actually increases the actual spell level of the spell. Meaning it can't benefit from metamagic reducers generally.

Really? The way I read that, is simply, that a heigthened spell, combined with easy metamagic just means that even if you heigthen it just one level, it still increases one level, so always a minimum of one level increase. So heigthen one level cost one level, incresasing it two levels cost one, level, increase three levels cost two levels... and so forth...

That is how I see it working. Not only does that interpretation adhere to both the "When preparing or casting a spell modified by that feat, lower the spell-slot cost by one" and the "you can never reduce the spell-slot cost below one level higher than the spell's actual level" because increasing a level 0 to level 9 using a 8th level spell slot would still be an increase of 8 levels... thus not breaking the "you can never reduce the spell-slot cost below one level higher than the spell's actual level" Because 8 levels is not below one level highter than the spells actual level, because the actual level is the original spell level, before application of metamagic. So below one level increase of the origional spell, just mean that easy metamagic cant reduce down below a minimum of one level increase...

So, why would easy metamagic not function like that?

[Darg]

Because you can't reduce the cost below the spell's actual level + 1. As heighten spell increases the actual level of the spell, a heightened 9th is still a 9th level spell and can't be reduced by easy metamagic below cost 10th.

Your interpretation makes the feat worthless on spell levels above matching +1 of the cost of the metamagic. You wouldn't be able to maximize a fireball for example and benefit from the feat as the level is 3 and the cost is 3. As it can't reduce the cost below the actual level +1 there is no reduction. This interpretation also contradicts the terminology used by non-dragon 1st party.

[Max Caysey]

Because you can't reduce the cost below the spell's actual level + 1. As heighten spell increases the actual level of the spell, a heightened 9th is still a 9th level spell and can't be reduced by easy metamagic below cost 10th.

Your interpretation makes the feat worthless on spell levels above matching +1 of the cost of the metamagic. You wouldn't be able to maximize a fireball for example and benefit from the feat as the level is 3 and the cost is 3. As it can't reduce the cost below the actual level +1 there is no reduction. This interpretation also contradicts the terminology used by non-dragon 1st party.

I would argue that it does not. Heigthen spell increases the effective level. The actual level of a spell in the actual level it had before appliying any meta-magic. It also sounds like you are saying that easy metamagic wont work on a maximized fireball, which clearly is wrong. A maximized fireball while using easy metamagic would be cast via a level 5 slot, not a level 6 slot.

Easy metamagic uses the terminology: actual level, while Heigthen spell uses effective level. They mean two different things. I read actual to mean pre-metamagic application and it seems you read that to mean post-metamagic application. I take it to mean two different things, because the two feats uses different terminology...

IIRC i haven't seen any specific mentioning of heighten spell not being susceptible to metamagic mitigation... which I assume I there are, if it indeed cant be mitigated?

[Darg]

A heightened spell has a higher spell level than normal (up to a maximum of 9th level). Unlike other metamagic feats, Heighten Spell actually increases the effective level of the spell that it modifies. All effects dependent on spell level (such as saving throw DCs and ability to penetrate a lesser globe of invulnerability) are calculated according to the heightened level. The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level. For example, a cleric could prepare hold person as a 4th-level spell (instead of a 2nd-level spell), and it would in all ways be treated as a 4th-level spell.

I don't see how the terminology leaves anything to the imagination. In comparison you have sanctum spell:


A sanctum spell has an effective spell level 1 higher than its normal level if cast in your sanctum (see below), but if not cast in the sanctum, the spell has an effective spell level 1 lower than normal. All effects dependent on spell level (including save DCs) are calculated according to the adjusted level. A sanctum spell uses a spell slot of the spell's normal level.

It never says that the spell level is changed. It doesn't say the actual effective spell level is changed. It doesn't say that in all ways it is to be treated as a different level spell.

I would think that the biggest dysfunction is that heighten spell doesn't actually have a spell slot cost. "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." There is nothing to actually reduce.

[Max Caysey]

I don't see how the terminology leaves anything to the imagination. In comparison you have sanctum spell:



It never says that the spell level is changed. It doesn't say the actual effective spell level is changed. It doesn't say that in all ways it is to be treated as a different level spell.

I would think that the biggest dysfunction is that heighten spell doesn't actually have a spell slot cost. "The heightened spell is as difficult to prepare and cast as a spell of its effective level." There is nothing to actually reduce.

Its because you are not nitpicking the semantics hard enough. Heigthen spell uses the word effective, while easy metamagic uses the word actual to describe the difference. I posit, that a spells actual level never changes, only its effective level does.

The actual level of any spell manipulated by metamagic spells are the same as before it was manipulated. A fireball's actual level is 3, its effective level is what it is when heigthen has been applied. Easy metamagic cant reduce any application of a metamagic feat below actual level +1, which means if a heigthen fireball just one level, it actually still increases the effective level by one. However, if I heigthen it three levels it will be cast out a level 5 spell slot... The actual level never changes only the effective level does!

[Darg]

I find it hard to believe that you read what I wrote based on your response. You are ignoring the very first and very last lines of Heighten spell. Heighten Spell does not have a spell slot cost. Easy Metamagic doesn't work without a spell slot cost.

[Max Caysey]

I find it hard to believe that you read what I wrote based on your response. You are ignoring the very first and very last lines of Heighten spell. Heighten Spell does not have a spell slot cost. Easy Metamagic doesn't work without a spell slot cost.

I can see we aren't going to go anywhere here... we clearly have very different interpretations. Thanks for engaging tho.

Cheers!

[Doctor Awkward]

Its because you are not nitpicking the semantics hard enough. Heigthen spell uses the word effective, while easy metamagic uses the word actual to describe the difference. I posit, that a spells actual level never changes, only its effective level does.

The last sentence of Heighten Spell makes this point irrelevant. The spell is treated in all ways as though it is of the Heightened level. "In all ways" includes how the spell interacts with other feats and/or class features.
So for the purposes of Easy Metamagic, the actual level of a Heightened Spell in a level 4 slot would be 4th level, and thus the lowest you could reduce the cost to would be 5th-level. Darg is correct: Easy Metamagic would not interact with Heighten Spell at all.