Is a 1 lvl Life Cleric dip for for goodberry goodness worth it?

[Spo]

I am considering triple multiclassing my moon Druid/barbarian character by dipping into life cleric. My primary reason would be to up my goodberry potency (each berry would heal for 4 points per berry instead of 1, so a casting of the spell would net 40 points healing).

My current build was going to be Moon Druid with a 2 lvl dip into barbarian for rage so my wildshape forms could be resistant to add to tankability and reckless attack for better hitting then back to Druid lvls. (Druid x/barbarian 2). Now I am thinking of instead of that second lvl barbarian, add a lvl in Life cleric then back to druid. (Druid x/barbarian 1/life cleric 1) Life cleric would allow my Goodberries to heal at 4 points each and if I cast goodberries mulitple times a day healing would be taken care of. I would only be delaying my wildshaping CR by two lvls but there isn't a huge difference in brown bear versus polar bear. I have a feeling my team is going to be taking (and giving) a lot of damage in that it is very in your face melee heavy. SInce cleric and druid are wisdom based, I have the stats for mulitclassing the three without it being too MAD.

We are all lvl 3 now and doing Frostmaiden. Team is ...
Me
Arcane trickster rogue
Big game hunter fighter
Brutality monk
Barbarian
Light ? Cleric

Even though we have a cleric, he always complains about spell slots and wanting to do long rests all the time (which the rest of the team would rather not do and push on with only the occasional short rest). I donÂ’t think he likes healing that much (which is fine) and wants to blast more. This 1 lvl dip would help him (and the team) out.

Thoughts?

[stoutstien]

how many spell slots is the cleric using on average per day for healing?

[nickl_2000]

Question: Would you DM allow Goodberries to heal extra from the dip? There are strong arguments either way, but many DMs will simply say that it is to powerful and nix the idea (my DM included, his ruling was that you get additional goodberries, but they still only heal 1 HP each time).


So, this is a significant change to things and will make a big difference on the question.

[Spo]

Question: Would you DM allow Goodberries to heal extra from the dip? There are strong arguments either way, but many DMs will simply say that it is to powerful and nix the idea (my DM included, his ruling was that you get additional goodberries, but they still only heal 1 HP each time).


So, this is a significant change to things and will make a big difference on the question.

When discussing it with him he said that each berry would heal 4 points. He did add though that it takes 1 action to eat 1 berry. This would reduce the in combat effectiveness of them. I could, however, give the party several berries at the start of the day (or cast the spell multiple times) so they could manage their own health.

[Spo]

how many spell slots is the cleric using on average per day for healing?

Hard to say but having played with him in other games where he has played other long rest resource characters, I can foresee this being an issue.

[Bilbron]

I am considering triple multiclassing my moon Druid/barbarian character by dipping into life cleric. My primary reason would be to up my goodberry potency (each berry would heal for 4 points per berry instead of 1, so a casting of the spell would net 40 points healing).

My current build was going to be Moon Druid with a 2 lvl dip into barbarian for rage so my wildshape forms could be resistant to add to tankability and reckless attack for better hitting then back to Druid lvls. (Druid x/barbarian 2). Now I am thinking of instead of that second lvl barbarian, add a lvl in Life cleric then back to druid. (Druid x/barbarian 1/life cleric 1) Life cleric would allow my Goodberries to heal at 4 points each and if I cast goodberries mulitple times a day healing would be taken care of. I would only be delaying my wildshaping CR by two lvls but there isn't a huge difference in brown bear versus polar bear. I have a feeling my team is going to be taking (and giving) a lot of damage in that it is very in your face melee heavy. SInce cleric and druid are wisdom based, I have the stats for mulitclassing the three without it being too MAD.

We are all lvl 3 now and doing Frostmaiden. Team is ...
Me
Arcane trickster rogue
Big game hunter fighter
Brutality monk
Barbarian
Light ? Cleric

Even though we have a cleric, he always complains about spell slots and wanting to do long rests all the time (which the rest of the team would rather not do and push on with only the occasional short rest). I donÂ’t think he likes healing that much (which is fine) and wants to blast more. This 1 lvl dip would help him (and the team) out.

Thoughts?
Yes!!! Lifeberry is gamechanging in that it turns HP into a totally renewable resource. If you can use familiar actions in combat to apply them, you're golden. Even if not, having essentially unlimited heals between battles allows for a lot more use of HP as a defense and you can preserve spell slots and other less renewable resources.

[nickl_2000]

When discussing it with him he said that each berry would heal 4 points. He did add though that it takes 1 action to eat 1 berry. This would reduce the in combat effectiveness of them. I could, however, give the party several berries at the start of the day (or cast the spell multiple times) so they could manage their own health.

This is exactly how goodberries should be used. You use up your spell slots at the end of each day to create goodberries for the next day. The spell goodberry can be cast with any level spell slot, even if it doesn't give you extra. So, you have a 1st level and 2nd level spell slot left at the end of the day, you create a total of 20 berries. Then hand them out to people to eat as they have time. Between normal goodberries and short rests, you should be able to keep a party going with their HP pretty darn well other than emergency healing (healing word).

The main problem that you have right now is spell slots, which is very common in early levels. If you take another level in a full caster class you will go from 3 spell slots to 6 total (from 3 first level spells to 4 first and 2 second). That will be a major boon to goodberry creation and other spell casting. That can be achieved through a third level in Druid or a first level in Cleric. If you want to become a healing powerhouse a level in Life Cleric is pretty darn good, it gets even better if the DM either waves the Metal Armor prohibition for Druids or allows you to be Shell or Dragonhide Heavy armor. Also, getting access to Sacred Flame/Toll the Dead and 2 other cantrips can be a significant boon for a Druid when in caster form.

All in all, I don't think you need it. I think your party isn't utilizing short rests as well as they could be or other healing methods. However, I've heard that Frostmaiden is a brutal campaign, so maybe you need extra. If you feel it will add more to yours and the rest of the parties fun, then you should go for it.

[stoutstien]

its hard to delay wildshape even more. the single level is a close trade already and im worried you would quickly have buyers remorse once hp becomes less of a strain as hp steadily increase as everyone levels but your personal power is static. if you already passing out GB maybe someone else should grab the healer feat or something to spread the recovery out.

[MaxWilson]

Question: Would you DM allow Goodberries to heal extra from the dip? There are strong arguments either way, but many DMs will simply say that it is to powerful and nix the idea (my DM included, his ruling was that you get additional goodberries, but they still only heal 1 HP each time).

So, this is a significant change to things and will make a big difference on the question.

I would rule as DM that it is not too powerful per se (it's weaker than Aura of Vitality shenanigans) but it is illegal, since Disciple of Life only boosts healing from a spell, and goodberry healing comes from berries. (The spell Goodberry is instantaneous, does not heal anyone, and is long over by the time you eat the berries.)

For the same reason, a skeleton killing someone would not trigger Grim Harvest for the Necromancer who originally created the skeleton--Animate Dead is instantaneous, so it's not a spell killing that creature, it's just a skeleton originally created by a spell.

You can use your action to eat a goodberry. If it's been less than 24 hours since the goodberry was created, you gain 1 HP and enough nourishment for one day. Otherwise you just get the satisfaction of eating a berry. Disciple of Life doesn't change any of that.

[Keravath]

It depends on whether your DM allows it or not. Some don't like it while some aren't bothered by it.

Keep in mind that the bonus hps restored by the life cleric ability are 2+spell level. For a first level casting of goodberry this nets 4 hit points/berry. However, if cast with a fifth level spell slot, each berry heals 8 hp.

I have a 1 life cleric/10 moon druid in my current party and the party has an immense amount of between encounter healing such that, unless they have a day that completely exhausts the druid's spell slots (which are very uncommon), the party is able to fully heal between every encounter every day. Hit points are then NOT effectively a resource drain during an adventuring day - if the druid used all their spell slots the night before (The party has something like 860 hit points of healing in good berries if the druid uses a full complement of spell slots just casting goodberry the night before).

In combat, healing word or a healing potion is more convenient and feasible but good berries make sure that no damage carries over between combat encounters.

It works fine. The DM has to take it into account when building encounters or designing an adventuring day but overall I don't find it to be a big deal ... mostly just a bit of a different playstyle.

---

In your case however, being a barbarian/druid, makes this a bit more of a problem. A one level delay in wild shape in exchange for over the top between combat healing and up to 7 prepared level 1 cleric spells in addition to your prepared druid spells can be very worthwhile. However, it represents a delay in wild shape which is the key feature of a moon druid. Moon druid wild shape attacks aren't considered magical until level 6. CR2 creatures are also level 6, CR3 is level 9 and elementals which are an amazing upgrade aren't until level 10.

A two level delay on these bumps these features to even higher levels. In addition, the extra healing and spells of the cleric only really work when in human form and rage isn't compatible with the druid maintaining a concentration spell.

For example, I've seen one level 5 moon druid cast conjure animals for 2 brown bears and then wildshape into a third then lead the entire bear pack into combat. This isn't an option for a raging moon druid/barb. Different play style I realize but perhaps something to consider.

Anyway, 1 level of life cleric is a decent trade off, however, you'll need to decide if it is worthwhile when it causes a 2 level delay in wildshapes (though if you were already considering a second level of barbarian for reckless attack ... 1 level of life cleric might offer a different set of options that might be better depending on your party).

[Keravath]

I would rule as DM that it is not too powerful per se (it's weaker than Aura of Vitality shenanigans) but it is illegal, since Disciple of Life only boosts healing from a spell, and goodberry healing comes from berries. (The spell Goodberry is instantaneous, does not heal anyone, and is long over by the time you eat the berries.)

For the same reason, a skeleton killing someone would not trigger Grim Harvest for the Necromancer who originally created the skeleton--Animate Dead is instantaneous, so it's not a spell killing that creature, it's just a skeleton originally created by a spell.

You can use your action to eat a goodberry. If it's been less than 24 hours since the goodberry was created, you gain 1 HP and enough nourishment for one day. Otherwise you just get the satisfaction of eating a berry. Disciple of Life doesn't change any of that.

Like a lot of interpretations this is also a DM call.

"GOOD BERRY
1st-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a sprig of mistletoe)
Duration: Instantaneous
Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry. Eating a berry restores 1 hit point, and the berry provides enough nourishment to sustain a creature for one day. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell."

"DISCIPLE OF LIFE
Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level. "

Are Goodberries produced by a spell? Yes.
Are hit points restored to a creature as the result of the cleric casting of the spell? Yes.

I understand your ruling. The spell produces berries that heal creatures. Is the cleric really doing the healing?

However, reading strictly, the cleric is restoring hit points to a creature as a consequence of casting the spell. Do they not get the bonus just because the healing is temporarily stored in the form of berries?

I can see DMs ruling either way which is why I mentioned to the OP to check with how their DM wants to run it but RAW, I can see it easily being interpreted either way depending on how a DM wants to run it.

And finally, there is the sage advice compendium entry ... depending on whether a DM gives the compendium (not sage advice tweets) any weight.

"If I’m a cleric/druid with the Disciple of Life feature, does the goodberry spell benefit from the feature?
Yes. The Disciple of Life feature would make each berry restore 4 hit points, instead of 1, assuming you cast goodberry with a 1st-level spell slot."

So, at least RAI, the life cleric feature is intended to work with the goodberry spell.

[Valmark]

Given that the OP's DM already said that it works discussing wether Disciple of Life applies or not doesn't really matter- aside from that...

Yes. A thousand times yes. Out of 3 DMs I've played/am playing with I've used/seen this used with marvelous effects at the first three tiers of play- we would've been much worst off otherwise.

Especially if you don't expect to get to 18+, since those druid features would be a decidedly big deal (I'm not familiar with the adventure path you mentioned).

[Frogreaver]

I would rule as DM that it is not too powerful per se (it's weaker than Aura of Vitality shenanigans) but it is illegal, since Disciple of Life only boosts healing from a spell, and goodberry healing comes from berries. (The spell Goodberry is instantaneous, does not heal anyone, and is long over by the time you eat the berries.)

For the same reason, a skeleton killing someone would not trigger Grim Harvest for the Necromancer who originally created the skeleton--Animate Dead is instantaneous, so it's not a spell killing that creature, it's just a skeleton originally created by a spell.

You can use your action to eat a goodberry. If it's been less than 24 hours since the goodberry was created, you gain 1 HP and enough nourishment for one day. Otherwise you just get the satisfaction of eating a berry. Disciple of Life doesn't change any of that.

That’s my ruling as well. I do think it sucks goodberry and disciple of life don’t interact at all though. So I’m nice and add extra berries when cast with disciple of life.

[MaxWilson]

Like a lot of interpretations this is also a DM call.

"GOOD BERRY
1st-level transmutation
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: Touch
Components: V, S, M (a sprig of mistletoe)
Duration: Instantaneous
Up to ten berries appear in your hand and are infused with magic for the duration. A creature can use its action to eat one berry. Eating a berry restores 1 hit point, and the berry provides enough nourishment to sustain a creature for one day. The berries lose their potency if they have not been consumed within 24 hours of the casting of this spell."

"DISCIPLE OF LIFE
Also starting at 1st level, your healing spells are more effective. Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points to a creature, the creature regains additional hit points equal to 2 + the spell's level. "

Are Goodberries produced by a spell? Yes.
Are hit points restored to a creature as the result of the cleric casting of the spell? Yes.

When a Thief with the Healer feat is Revivified by a cleric, are HP healed by the Thief a result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

When a cleric creates berries with Goodberry, are hit points restored to a creature from eating a berry the result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

But I understand why you might rule differently (the simplest way would be to just change the duration on Goodberry to 24 hours), and I agree that you should ask your DM.

[Frogreaver]

Even though we have a cleric, he always complains about spell slots and wanting to do long rests all the time (which the rest of the team would rather not do and push on with only the occasional short rest). I donÂ’t think he likes healing that much (which is fine) and wants to blast more. This 1 lvl dip would help him (and the team) out.

Thoughts?

Generally if you choose cleric it's because you want to heal at least some (not always but typically).

While your choice would let him blast more it would also make his healing feel weak and ineffective. I'm not sure that would lead to a particularly enjoyable experience for him even if it lets him blast more.

[Witty Username]

When a Thief with the Healer feat is Revivified by a cleric, are HP healed by the Thief a result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

When a cleric creates berries with Goodberry, are hit points restored to a creature from eating a berry the result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

But I understand why you might rule differently (the simplest way would be to just change the duration on Goodberry to 24 hours), and I agree that you should ask your DM.

I think I might agree if goodberries were a thing other than the result of a spell. Animate dead creates skeletons, which exist outside of the spell, they are a monster. If a spell created a common magic item, like basic healing potions, it would have its own rules a not be a spell. But because goodberries don't exist outside of the context of being the effect of a spell, it feels more like a fireball spell, the spell didn't deal the damage the resulting fire created by the spell did (there is a range here, a creature being reduced to 0 is obviously intended to trigger grim harvest but not necessarily lingering fires from ignited flammable objects). For clarity, I don't think there is a wrong answer here. Just the right answer your DM gives.

As for the topic question, if your DM says sure, then it is probably a good idea. Also, if you plan on continuing druid it works for healing spirit which makes that spell actually useful again(unless your DM uses the original, in which case take it if you plan on healing).

[DarknessEternal]

Goodberry doesn't benefit from Life domain.

It's "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points" not "whenever something gets healed by your spell"

Casting Goodberry is when you'd check that condition. Casting Goodberry also does not restore hit points. Consuming goodberries does.

[Grek]

You can do this without the one level dip if you get the Moon Sickle from Tasha's. It's +1d4 instead of +3 but it's still pretty dang good. And it fits with a moon druid lore-wise.

[BoringInfoGuy]

Goodberry doesn't benefit from Life domain.

It's "Whenever you use a spell of 1st level or higher to restore hit points" not "whenever something gets healed by your spell"

Casting Goodberry is when you'd check that condition. Casting Goodberry also does not restore hit points. Consuming goodberries does.

Compare the triggers on Blessed Healer and Disciple of Life.

Blessed Healer triggers:
“When you Cast a Spell of 1st level or higher...”

Disciple of Life on the other hand:
“Whenever you use a spell of 1st level...”

BH specifies the trigger is tied to the moment of casting. Disciple of Life is tied to whenever a spell is used.

If DoL had the same trigger language as BH, I’d agree with you. If we only had DoL by itself, I’d say it would be a valid interpretation. But when you have DoL and BH side by side for comparison, it is clear that the DoL ability is not tied to the moment of casting.

If a Life Cleric spell of 1st level or higher is used to heal, DoL applies, whether the healing happens at the moment of casting or later. Whenever used means whenever used.

[MrCharlie]

When a Thief with the Healer feat is Revivified by a cleric, are HP healed by the Thief a result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

When a cleric creates berries with Goodberry, are hit points restored to a creature from eating a berry the result of the cleric casting a spell? Yes, but not in a way that qualifies for Disciple of Life bonus healing.

But I understand why you might rule differently (the simplest way would be to just change the duration on Goodberry to 24 hours), and I agree that you should ask your DM.
False equivalence. A thief is healing using a completely different, non-spell tool, whose only relation to the original cleric is extrodinarily suspect. Lifeberries aren't even vaguely as circumspect.

The grim harvest animate dead issue is slightly more equivalent, but still not the same thing-you summon a creature which acts semi-independently, with it's own actions, and the spell only controls the creature. This is why the animate dead spells are interpreted to not work with grim harvest. While goodberries has the same written duration as animate dead, and even a similar de-facto duration (24 hours for both) in their text that contradicts this (Although goodberries is more egregious and, RAW, can be interpreted to do nothing), goodberries creating berries which heal is a less significant break in causality than animate dead creating an entirely different creature.

To put it another way, most players would say that animate dead and summon undead (or conjure elemental, using PHB material) both don't work with grim harvest. The duration isn't the significant factor, the created creature is.

A true (or truer) equivalency is flame arrows and grim harvest versus disciple of life and goodberry. And when framed that way, arguments from absurdity don't work-there is no clear interpretation either way, it's entirely reasonable that casting flame arrows on a quiver that someone else then uses to kill a creature would trigger your grim harvest, as your spell caused (or contributed) to the lethal damage. Goodberries is still a slightly more direct relationship because flame arrows has the issue of the user dealing non-flame-arrow damage as well as flame arrow damage while goodberries don't have that problem, but I'd propose that is ultimately insignificant (for the same reason booming blade would theoretically trigger grim harvest if it worked on cantrips, etc.).

The only true equivalency requires a spell, like flame arrows, that is activated through an object that another character uses.