Help me understand something about initiator levels (ToB)

[Melcar]

I have a few questions about ToB:

Its says in ToB that being a multiclass martial adept, and learning a new maneuver by attaining a new level in a martial adept class, means you are determining your initiator level by adding together your level in that class + 1/2 your levels in all other classes. So, what initiator level is a character who is: 1 rogue, 4 fighter, 2 monk, 1 crusader? I get that to initiator level 4,5=4! Is this correct?

Also, how many stances and maneuvers would this character access to and at what level?

Furthermore, if this character when increasing in level, gains a level of a not martial adept class (like fighter or monk), would he then gain access to new stances or maneuvers - and if so what level?

Lastly, does such a character have access to level 2 stances? Or would he need to advance to level 2 crusader in order to do that?


Thanks...

[sleepyphoenixx]

You've got the level calculation right.
You don't get extra maneuvers known or readied for taking non-initiator levels, so you'd get the amount of maneuvers and stances as a crusader 1.

What maneuvers and stances you have access to depends on when you take the crusader level.
Iirc by RAW the first level in an initiator class only grants a 1st level stance (it should be in the class descriptions under stances), after that you can pick depending on your initiator level.

[rrwoods]

Iirc by RAW the first level in an initiator class only grants a 1st level stance (it should be in the class descriptions under stances), after that you can pick depending on your initiator level.
This gets tossed around every now and then, but in reality it depends on how you interpret the phrase "begins play". The source for this interpretation is the fact that all the base initiator classes say they "begin play with" a 1st-level stance. Absent anything to the contrary, I choose to interpret "begin play" to mean "take your first character level"; if your first character level isn't in an initiator class, the phrase is moot, and your first stance will be at whatever level is appropriate.

[Melcar]

This gets tossed around every now and then, but in reality it depends on how you interpret the phrase "begins play". The source for this interpretation is the fact that all the base initiator classes say they "begin play with" a 1st-level stance. Absent anything to the contrary, I choose to interpret "begin play" to mean "take your first character level"; if your first character level isn't in an initiator class, the phrase is moot, and your first stance will be at whatever level is appropriate.

Thats actually how I've always thought made the most sense too... that if you take your first initiator level like my example (at 7th level), it would make sense that one not only had access to level apporpriate maneuvers but stances too...

I don't expect that you geet access to more than one though right?

[Darg]

It's why turn of phrase should not be in places with rules text. 3.5 has these in many places.

I also agree. The book would have used a variation of "level 1" if describing something meant for 1st level as WotC does with every other class.

[sleepyphoenixx]

I don't expect that you geet access to more than one though right?

You do not. Though you could spend a feat on Martial Stance if you really want one.

[KillianHawkeye]

Aside from the weird multiclassing calculations, initiator level has the same effect in calculating your number of maneuvers and stances as caster level has in calculating your spells per day (i.e., none whatsoever). Rather, in both cases, it is your class level which is the determining factor (prestige class advancement notwithstanding).

[Rijan_Sai]

Something to remember about stances:

They are NOT maneuvers... except when they are.
They ARE maneuvers... except when they are not.

If this is clear as mud, it is explained (though not well clarified) throughout the book...

And, for the record, I am of the camp that believes that "...begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance..." only applies to starting at character-level 1. Beyond that, the fact that other classes add to your IL represents (to me at least) that learning other "fighting styles" gives you at least basic knowledge, while taking the class represents putting that knowledge into new forms.
Conversely, a previously non-casting character that multiclasses into a Wizard, for example, would not have the "foundational knowledge" to have a higher caster level. Cleric (and heck, even Sorcerer) casting are different enough "mechanically" (in-universe) that they could not take what they know and apply it to Wizard.