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ChocolateChtulu
2007-11-06, 04:18 PM
Hi all,

I have been interested in DnD for a lot of time, but for various reasons I never got around to playing it (except for a single, very fun session a couple of years ago).

Now, I want to try joining a play-by-post game, and a few days ago I started brainstorming about possible characters.

One character idea I like especially - and for which I think I have an interesting backstory - is an Half-Orc ranger with a vendetta going on against either dragons or beholders.

From what I gathered by reading the forum and the srd, it seems to me that this would not be an optimized building: the principal selling point of the Half Orc race is the strength bonus, which is not that useful for a ranger, and because of the int penalty I will probably have less skill points than I'd like to have.

But exactly how much unoptimized is it? Would such a character be nigh-useless for the average party, or is it still a reasonable choice?

With some minor modifications to the backstory I could make it an Half-Orc rogue: would this choice be preferable from a gameplay standpoint?

Also, I would like some advice on, well, everything - stat assignment, feats, equipment, whatever you think could be useful to know.

I was thinking of going the archery route, since it fits better the story and I heard two weapon fighting is subpar anyhow: is it a correct choice?

Thanks!

EDIT - because a thread is not complete without an alignment question ;-)

The character, as I envisioned it, has two driving forces in his life: his hate for [beholders or dragons], and his desire for wealth.

He is not without compassion, and will help people out if he can do so easily; moreover, there are things he would never do, as for example harming innocents.

But, on the other hand, he is not going to risk his neck anytime soon if he has no hope of reward.

Is he True Neutral, or did I interpret the alignment system the wrong way?

Temp
2007-11-06, 04:41 PM
But exactly how much unoptimized is it? Would such a character be nigh-useless for the average party, or is it still a reasonable choice?

Also, I would like some advice on, well, everything - stat assignment, feats, equipment, whatever you think could be useful to know.

I was thinking of going the archery route, since it fits better the story and I heard two weapon fighting is subpar anyhow: is it a correct choice?

Honestly, you should be fine. Ranger's a solid class with enough skill points to spare a few.

If archery fits your character, it makes things considerably easier. Archery builds are rather easy; Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot and your Combat Style feats are all they really need.

And the skills that are good for any Ranger are Survival, Spot, Listen, Hide and Move Silently. Anything else to match your concept is probably enough.

For your Favored Enemy, pick Aberrations first. They're very likely to show up more often than Dragons and they're usually more threatening.

Ranger's a good class for a new player; it's easy to understand, it introduces every aspect of the game (first general combat and skills, then spells once you've become comfortable with basic game-play) and it does a good deal to prevent itself from being entirely unoptimized with its combat style progression.


[Edit:]

He is not without compassion, and will help people out if he can do so easily; moreover, there are things he would never do, as for example harming innocents.

But, on the other hand, he is not going to risk his neck anytime soon if he has no hope of reward.

Is he True Neutral, or did I interpret the alignment system the wrong way?
...Neutral something anyway. The Law/Chaos axis is awkward and can usually be justified to swing either way with a character.

Fuum Bango
2007-11-06, 04:50 PM
Ranger is actually pretty good for a Half-Orc, I play it over Barbarian or Fighter any day. Being a Ranger and strong means your going to be very useful to your party, besides, your a Half-Orc, you aren't going to use many skills anyway.
Bow and Arrow is the way to go.

Also True Neutral is for losers, make him either Lawful Neutral or Chaotic Neutral. Have some balls about your alignment! :smallbiggrin:

Frosty
2007-11-06, 05:04 PM
True Neutral is great. WHAT circles of protection?

Enguhl
2007-11-06, 05:06 PM
While this character isn't "optimized", I see no reason why it would not be a good idea to play. First of all, it seems you have thought this character through, so role playing them should be great. Also it just seems like a fun idea to play. So while you may not be as solidly useful to the game, you will definitely add to the fun factor.

cupkeyk
2007-11-06, 05:09 PM
You know what Dragons and Beholders have in common, they both cast spells either as Sorcerors(dragons) or spell like abilities(Beholders), investing two skill points(one rank) in Knowledge Arcana can get you Favored Enemy (Arcanist)! Two for the price of one. You can then take favored enemy (aberration) and favored enemy (dragon), which stack with favored enemy arcanist! At level 10(Rgr10), you can get +6 vs arcanists, +4 vs dragons, +2 vs. aberrations AND +10 vs arcanist dragons, +8 vs arcanist aberrations. If you can get Favored enemy (evil) the stackage just continues!

Now on to my optimization suggestion. Two handed weapons, as we all know, is superior to twf, but rangers get the twf tree even if they don't meet the prerequisites so why not get the best of both worlds.

You can get a Two-handed Weapon and Armor spikes and make maximal use of your Strength bonus!!! Get one level of Barbarian(Lion totem, CChamp) to get pounce and you can hit the thing with your big *ss sword and slam him with your spiked shoulder at LEVEL 1!

Now if you get the UA Simple Barbarian variant, you lose the rage ability and get another favored enemy (huwaaaat) for even more beholder/dragon hate-age. By level 11 (Rgr10,Barb1) you can get +6 vs arcanists, +4 vs dragons, +4 vs. aberrations(assuming you chose aberration as your barbarian favored enemy) AND +10 vs arcanist dragons, +10 vs arcanist aberrations, because these are all untyped bonuses, they all stack. Wheeee.

As for stat assignment, Strength comes first and you need a 14 in wisdom by level 14 to cast all your neat ranger spells. Con is necessary for hitpoints. Dex is important for A but not as high a priority since its not a feat prerequisite. You will want some int for skill points and hopefully you can either dump Cha or keep it near 10 so you can dodge penalties.

Fuum Bango
2007-11-06, 05:14 PM
True Neutral is great. WHAT circles of protection?

Protection from Balance!

Yeah I made that up but...

AslanCross
2007-11-06, 05:15 PM
If you're going the archery route, then focus on strength (for the bonus damage from composite longbows) and dex (for AB and improved armor class).

Two-Weapon Fighting is not necessarily horrible. In fact the Ranger can probably do it the easiest because he can do it for free. Many people find it off-putting that you need to take three or more feats that have rather high requirements just to increase your damage output. Since the Ranger can get those feats for free, he doesn't have such a big problem. The best route for a TWF ranger is not straight ranger though, but a mix of ranger, scout (which gives you extra damage and AC after moving after 10 feet), and a prestige class that'll give you the ability to attack with both weapons (and get your Skirmish damage on both).

That said, archery works just fine. Again, it's one thing the ranger can do very easily due to his Combat Style feats.

As for your alignment, that ethos could work with True Neutral. It's a good catch-all for ambiguous moral codes anyway. Had he not been motivated by wealth he would definitely qualify for Neutral Good/Chaotic Good.

(I'm glad they removed the "Ranger must be good" requirement. That was just weird.)

Temp
2007-11-06, 05:16 PM
While this character isn't "optimized"
Why couldn't this character be optimized? All we know is that the concept is a Half-Orc archer and it doesn't appear unsafe to infer that some Tracking ability fits into the character concept as well.

There's nothing here yet to not be optimized.

If you're saying the concept isn't optimal, none ever are beside Kobold Paladins/Wizards with maxed Know. (Religion) skills.


...investing two skill points(one rank) in Knowledge Arcana can get you Favored Enemy (Arcanist)!
If your group uses Complete Mage, do this. It's a great choice.

AslanCross
2007-11-06, 05:19 PM
Oh yeah, an optimized character is not necessarily fun to play. Go with a concept you think you'll enjoy.

Not Dice
2007-11-06, 05:27 PM
Hi all,
I was thinking of going the archery route, since it fits better the story and I heard two weapon fighting is subpar anyhow: is it a correct choice?


There is no "correct" choice.

My personal advice is this: play what you want to play. If you'd rather be a half-orc Ranger instead of an elven Ranger, despite what the ability scores might want to lean you towards, do it. TWF is inferior to Two-handers in terms of damage and accuracy, but if you prefer TWF for the cool factor, do it. If it will make the game fun for you, do it.

Ultimately the point of the game is to take part in the GM's story and enjoy your roleplaying experience. Don't fret too much over optimisation; flaws in characters are what make them interesting.

ChocolateChtulu
2007-11-06, 05:32 PM
Thanks, you all!

Cupkeyk: the build you suggest seems a bit complex for a newbie like myself - and, moreover, I want to play a reasonably good character who can survive and contribute to the party even in the hands of an inexperienced player, not the dude who one-shots the great wyrm at level 5 and ruins the fun for everyone else.

By the way, I thought favored enemy bonuses didn't stack - am I wrong about that?



Why couldn't this character be optimized? All we know is that the concept is a Half-Orc archer and it doesn't appear unsafe to infer that some Tracking ability fits into the character concept as well.

There's nothing here yet to not be optimized.

If you're saying the concept isn't optimal, none ever are beside Kobold Paladins/Wizards with maxed Know. (Religion) skills.

Well, I may obviously be mistaken, but it seemed to me that some race/class combinations were inherently weaker than other ones, even to the point of complete uselessness in the hand of everyone but an expert: a gnome monk, or a dwarf sorcerer/bard, are probably going to contribute far less to the party than, say, a well-played wizard or cleric.

I did not mean "Is this character as powerful as he can possibly be?", but rather "Is this character concept strong enough to survive the first five minutes of play, and probably also a tactical mistake or two?"

Sucrose
2007-11-06, 05:33 PM
Your basic idea can be optimized easily enough, and yes, it is strong enough not to gimp the party; it's not even really suboptimal. As AslanCross said, pump Strength and Dex. Strength is actually fairly important to an archer; it's one of the easiest ways to add damage to each arrow. Dex is king, of course, but Strength should definitely be up there.

Archery is superior to TWF, yes. Both are inferior to two-handing one weapon for damage, but archery lags slightly less, you can attack from (very) long range, and you can use two-handed weapons when the enemy closes. If you have access to the Spell Compendium, I recall there being some good archery spells for Rangers in there. You won't get to cast them much, but it'll be good every now and then.

For a strictly Ranger build, if you don't mind not making much use of your animal companion (or even trading it out for some variant in another book), you don't need Int all that much. I'd still put a decent score here, but that's just because I'm a skill point addict.

Charisma is unnecessary; Constitution, while nice, isn't as important to an archer as it is to most, since you don't need to get up close and personal with giants. Wisdom is pretty good, for spells and perceptive abilities.


For in-game optimization (warning, slight cheese):

If you have a caster in the party who's willing to use this trick, I've wanted to try this for ages, and I think it might be a handy trick:
1.) Have the person cast Explosive Runes on many, many sheets of parchment.
2.) Tie said parchment to arrows, preferably stored in an extradimensional space.
3.) Fire them all against an appropriately challenging enemy.
4.) Arcanist casts Dispel Magic.

It's more efficient if he takes Arcane Mastery so he can guarantee failure of his caster level roll, but even if he doesn't, each one has fair odds of going off, and each does decent force damage.

cupkeyk
2007-11-06, 05:42 PM
Cupkeyk: the build you suggest seems a bit complex for a newbie like myself - and, moreover, I want to play a reasonably good character who can survive and contribute to the party even in the hands of an inexperienced player, not the dude who one-shots the great wyrm at level 5 and ruins the fun for everyone else.

By the way, I thought favored enemy bonuses didn't stack - am I wrong about that?

Uhh, what was complex about it? It's basically two handed weapon combined with two weapon fighting. I can elaborate. And basically a +10 bonus to damage won't be one shotting even a juvenile dragon, so don't worry about that.

Temp
2007-11-06, 05:50 PM
Well, I may obviously be mistaken, but it seemed to me that some race/class combinations were inherently weaker than other ones, even to the point of complete uselessness in the hand of everyone but an expert: a gnome monk, or a dwarf sorcerer/bard, are probably going to contribute far less to the party than, say, a well-played wizard or cleric.

I did not mean "Is this character as powerful as he can possibly be?", but rather "Is this character concept strong enough to survive the first five minutes of play, and probably also a tactical mistake or two?"
Race choice doesn't actually do much to affect a character's effectiveness. That's one of the the main reasons that Level Adjustment is such a bad deal.

"Optimization" in a practical sense just means building your character concept to be as strong as possible, not adjusting your character concept to match the strongest choice available. That's why I found it irksome that Enghul criticized your optimization before you'd even started. Especially when Half-Orcs and Rangers actually have some synergy (Darkvision with Stealth skills, Strength bonus and a Physical damage source, Charisma penalty and next to no use for Charisma skills).

And the Gnome Monk's weakness has little to do with race.


I thought favored enemy bonuses didn't stack
Right you are:

In most cases, modifiers to a given check or roll stack (combine for a cumulative effect) if they come from different sources and have different types (or no type at all), but do not stack if they have the same type or come from the same source

[edit:]
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Its in Complete Mage, Champion has the Feat variant, a Companion Variant and speak with X variant
Good catch. Fixed.

Leon
2007-11-06, 05:50 PM
If your group uses Complete Champion, do this. It's a great choice.

Its in Complete Mage, Champion has the Feat variant, a Companion Variant and speak with X variant

cupkeyk
2007-11-06, 06:19 PM
If you want to go the ranged route, this is the way to go. (http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?p=12511855#post12511855)