[3.Pathfinder] Verstaile Spellcaster + Infinite Cantrips

[Endarire]

In Pathfinder, casters who get cantrips (level 0 spells) can use them at will. Does the feat Versatile Spellcaster (Races of the Dragon) let me combine level 0 spell slots into level 1 spell slots infinitely? Seemingly, cantrips don't use spell slots: "These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again." Note that other spells are cast from spell slots - prepared or spontaneous.

What does RAW say?

Thankee!

[Morcleon]

By RAW, RAW doesn't say anything because they're entirely separate games.

If you using both, it doesn't work because PF casters don't have any 0th level spell slots to combine into 1st level spell slots.

[Kitsuneymg]

By RAW, RAW doesn't say anything because they're entirely separate games.

If you using both, it doesn't work because PF casters don't have any 0th level spell slots to combine into 1st level spell slots.

They do explicitly have cantrip spell slots, as the Cantrips class feature refers to them as such. But Cantrips are a separate class feature from Spells. That feature only lets you prepare cantrips (or zero level spells), not anything else. Additionally, a wizard does not have infinite zero level spell slots. They have a discrete number and it is only cantrips that are not expended when casting them. A generous reading of versatile caster would let you prepare a first level spell in place of two cantrips, but it would be expended upon casting as normal, as it is not a cantrip.

[KillianHawkeye]

You're using two incompatible game mechanics. It doesn't work. Versatile Spellcaster was written under the assumption that cantrip spell slots worked just like every other level, getting expended when used. You can't import this feat to Pathfinder and expect it to work the same way.

[Powerdork]

Regardless of what the rules do or don't say, I think that having infinite 1st-level spells is only as game-breaking as a few wands of any 1st-level spell that the player in question thinks to use. Inappropriate at lower levels, or with certain spells, but at-will is not inherently broken.

[AvatarVecna]

PF is supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5, so just saying "they're different systems that were never meant to interact" is objectively incorrect, even if that's how it shakes out at 99% of tables.

Unfortunately, the RAW doesn't work out the way you'd want it to.


VERSATILE SPELLCASTER

You can use two spell slots of the same level to cast a spell you know that is one level higher. For example, a sorcerer with this feat can expend two 2nd-level spell slots to cast any 3rd-level spell he knows.

Okay, so we can use two 0th level slots to cast a 1st level spell. Let's go check out how 0th level slots work in Pathfinder.


Bard’s learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Bard Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Clerics can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Cleric under “Spells per day.” These spells are treated like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Druids can prepare a number of orisons, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Druid under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again.
Sorcerers learn a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, as noted on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known under “Spells Known.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they do not consume any slots and may be used again.
Wizards can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Wizard under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. A wizard can prepare a cantrip from an opposition school, but it uses up two of his available slots (see below).

So a few RAW conclusions:

1) The infinite use is not a function of 0th lvl slots themselves, but rather is a function of casting a 0th lvl spell. If you used something like Sanctum Spell or Versatile Spellcaster to cast a 1st level spell using 0th level slots, those 0th level slots would be expended as normal.

2) Versatile Spellcaster requires you to be a spontaneous caster. Versatile Spellcasters lets you turn two slots of level X into an effective slot of level X+1 as part of casting a spell of level X+1. PF Spontaneous casters do not have 0th level slots at all, though, just 0th level spells known, which they can use infinitely without consuming any spell slot.

...


Witches can prepare a number of cantrips, or 0-level spells, each day, as noted on Table: Witch under “Spells per Day.” These spells are cast like any other spell, but they are not expended when cast and may be used again. Cantrips prepared using other spell slots, due to metamagic feats for example, are expended normally.

3) Unrelated to anything to do with Versatile Spellcaster, or 3.P in general, the default language for cantrips/orisons seems to tie the "infinite use" mechanic to the spells themselves, and that means that metamagic doesn't change their infinite use. The exception is for classes that specify metamagic'd cantrips consume slots as normal (like the Witch). The other classes are written in such a way that infinite metamagic'd cantrips are RAW legal, and the Witch is written in such a way that they aren't, but it's not a general rule rewriting how 0th lvl spells work for every other class.

(RAI will see metamagic'd cantrips consume slots on all casters, and even if the DM thinks it'd work by RAW they probably wouldn't allow you to get infinite 1st lvl slots via Versatile Spellcaster.)

[KillianHawkeye]

PF is supposed to be backwards compatible with 3.5, so just saying "they're different systems that were never meant to interact" is objectively incorrect, even if that's how it shakes out at 99% of tables.

That isn't what I said.


You're using two incompatible game mechanics.

The two incompatible game mechanics are "cantrip spell slots are expended as normal" in 3.x, and "cantrip spells can be cast an unlimited number of times" in PF. This is a design mismatch which clearly affects the way things work when mixing systems.

Much like using 3.0 material in 3.5, using 3.x material in PF sometimes requires alterations to ensure compatibility. The simplest alteration is that Versatile Spellcaster can't be used with cantrips in PF.

Good job digging through the rules quotes to find RAW support, though.