Damage and Poisoned - Concentration Checks

[Cikomyr2]

So say I cast Ray of Sickness on a Caster holding concentration.

I do damage and I can poison the Caster. Would the Caster roll concentration against the damage received before the Poisoned condition is applied?

[ProsecutorGodot]

I think it's concentration first, then poison.

I'm not sure it matters either way though, the poisoned condition doesn't affect saving throws. "Concentration check" is a sort of short hand term but it's not actually a check, it's a constitution saving throw.

[RSP]

What Prosecutor said, but also the way I think it works, RAW, is going to be damage roll and subsequent Concentration roll, followed by follow on effect of poison. Essentially, you aren’t poisoned when they stab you, you’re poisoned after they stab you, so the condition would not affect the damage roll.

In that same vein, if an attack has an additional rider effect akin to “DC 12 Con Save and on a failure take 2d6 poison damage”, you’d roll the damage (and any Conc roll); then resolve the rider effect, including possibly rolling damage and another Concentration roll.

[Cikomyr2]

Yhea, nevermind sorry. I thought the poisoned condition give disadvantage on saving throws.

[MrCharlie]

While the specifics are N/A because poison doesn't grant disadvantage, I'm not seeing any clear way to resolve the "Order of operations" of the conditions versus damage here, and thus think it would be DM discretion. If the rider effect granted disadvantage for the concentration save against the damage associated with it isn't explicit in the rules, obviously.

As for actually causing this effect-Mind Sliver comes up as a great example. Does the "subtract 1d4 from your next save" apply to a concentration save against the 1d6 damage? Same question as if disadvantage would apply!

[MaxWilson]

While the specifics are N/A because poison doesn't grant disadvantage, I'm not seeing any clear way to resolve the "Order of operations" of the conditions versus damage here, and thus think it would be DM discretion. If the rider effect granted disadvantage for the concentration save against the damage associated with it isn't explicit in the rules, obviously.

As for actually causing this effect-Mind Sliver comes up as a great example. Does the "subtract 1d4 from your next save" apply to a concentration save against the 1d6 damage? Same question as if disadvantage would apply!

FWIW, the Xanathar's rule for simultaneous effects is that whichever player (including the DM) controls the character or monster whose turn it currently is gets to decide the order in which to apply the effects. That means that if you're playing a wizard who casts Mind Sliver on a monster, you get to decide whether the subtract 1d4 applies before or after the save against 1d6 damage--if your group is using that Xanathar's rule, anyway.

I suspect that way most groups do it is more "resolve it in whatever order is desired by the player who cares the most, or in whatever order is convenient if nobody cares."

[JackPhoenix]

FWIW, the Xanathar's rule for simultaneous effects is that whichever player (including the DM) controls the character or monster whose turn it currently is gets to decide the order in which to apply the effects. That means that if you're playing a wizard who casts Mind Sliver on a monster, you get to decide whether the subtract 1d4 applies before or after the save against 1d6 damage--if your group is using that Xanathar's rule, anyway.

I suspect that way most groups do it is more "resolve it in whatever order is desired by the player who cares the most, or in whatever order is convenient if nobody cares."

Um.... that's wrong on the Mind Sliver. The save is both for damage AND the -1d4 to saves. You don't get to apply the penalty to saves before you fail the save.

[ProsecutorGodot]

Um.... that's wrong on the Mind Sliver. The save is both for damage AND the -1d4 to saves. You don't get to apply the penalty to saves before you fail the save.

I assume Max was talking about a constitution save for concentration against the 1d6 damage and not the saving throw against the spell.

[Asisreo1]

This actually got me curious. What says the forum when a concentrating character gets hit with a move that does damage then forces another saving throw for more damage.

For instance, you get bit by a poisonous snake and its does 1d4 damage, then you must save or take 4d6 damage.

Do you roll concentration twice, or just once? The answer immensely effects spellcasters, especially at higher levels.

[Lunali]

This actually got me curious. What says the forum when a concentrating character gets hit with a move that does damage then forces another saving throw for more damage.

For instance, you get bit by a poisonous snake and its does 1d4 damage, then you must save or take 4d6 damage.

Do you roll concentration twice, or just once? The answer immensely effects spellcasters, especially at higher levels.

You roll twice because they're two separate effects. This is also why the poison isn't doubled on a crit.

[MrCharlie]

FWIW, the Xanathar's rule for simultaneous effects is that whichever player (including the DM) controls the character or monster whose turn it currently is gets to decide the order in which to apply the effects. That means that if you're playing a wizard who casts Mind Sliver on a monster, you get to decide whether the subtract 1d4 applies before or after the save against 1d6 damage--if your group is using that Xanathar's rule, anyway.

I suspect that way most groups do it is more "resolve it in whatever order is desired by the player who cares the most, or in whatever order is convenient if nobody cares."
Didn't know that suggestion, interesting!

You roll twice because they're two separate effects. This is also why the poison isn't doubled on a crit.
Indeed, there is some sage advice thread from way back on this-people were trying to use it to turn assassin alpha-strikes into truly horrifying things.