RAW surprise vs initiative and rounds

[da newt]

If a PC has a weapon of warning (can't be surprised) and a bad guy initiates combat by casting a spell in plain view (control AoE), by RAW how does that play out? Specifically, when do you roll initiative vs when does the spell get cast vs when does everyone get to act, etc?

Certainly the DM can decide to rule in favor of their narrative, but it feels like it requires a hand wave of RAW ...

[Gignere]

If a PC has a weapon of warning (can't be surprised) and a bad guy initiates combat by casting a spell in plain view (control AoE), by RAW how does that play out? Specifically, when do you roll initiative vs when does the spell get cast vs when does everyone get to act, etc?

Certainly the DM can decide to rule in favor of their narrative, but it feels like it requires a hand wave of RAW ...

I mean DM can decide to do anything. But by RAW the second the DM said he begins casting that’s when he should roll initiative.

With a weapon a warning it means your character would not get the surprise status even if he had no idea that it was going to happen. If your character wins initiative he can actually act before the enemy casts the spell.

[Amnestic]

If a PC has a weapon of warning (can't be surprised) and a bad guy initiates combat by casting a spell in plain view (control AoE), by RAW how does that play out? Specifically, when do you roll initiative vs when does the spell get cast vs when does everyone get to act, etc?

You roll initiative when the bad guy decides the action, but before it completes. He's not Hiding, so everyone can see him, and no one is surprised.

This might mean that he is stopped from casting the spell if he rolls low on initiative and players are able to disable him.

[Keltest]

You roll initiative when the bad guy decides the action, but before it completes. He's not Hiding, so everyone can see him, and no one is surprised.

This might mean that he is stopped from casting the spell if he rolls low on initiative and players are able to disable him.

Bingo. While the DM has the right to declare when somebody is surprised, "X person begins a hostile action in broad daylight while under observation" is not something that most DMs would typically qualify.

But lets say we have an unusual DM who thinks this qualifies. You still roll initiative like normal. Being surprised means that you dont get to act that round. A weapon of warning would give you some sort of supernatural 6th sense that Bad Stuff was about to go down from this guy and allow you to act on your turn when initiative came up. If youre faster than the caster, you can beat them to the punch and possibly interrupt their spellcasting. Or maybe youre slower than they are, and knowing that Bad Stuff is happening doesnt allow you to stop them. It depends on how your initiative rolls compare.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You roll initiative when the bad guy decides the action, but before it completes. He's not Hiding, so everyone can see him, and no one is surprised.

This might mean that he is stopped from casting the spell if he rolls low on initiative and players are able to disable him.

This.

Initiative, by RAW and by best play, happens at the moment hostilities are initiated. This does require DM adjudication as to exact in-game timing, but no hostile actions take place before initiative is rolled, surprise or no.

[Darth Credence]

As a DM, here is how I would rule.
The sword prevents you from being surprised - that's it. All surprise does is make it so that on the first round of combat, anyone who is surprised gets to do nothing except be surprised. So that will not be a problem for people who have or are around the sword.
So it comes down to how the DM rules things like starting a combat. I have a several different opinions on that, depending on the situation. Two groups that are clearly at odds (e.g. a party and monsters, opposing armies) means that we get initiative as soon as they are in sight of each other, even if no one attacks immediately. Groups that are neutral to each other (e.g. two adventuring parties in town), no initiative until someone decides to start something, but if someone does, then initiative is rolled and determines who acts first regardless of who declared (I might give the declaring person advantage on initiative if it makes sense). No one will be surprised in that case, as it's a dangerous world and you don't let your guard down around people you don't know well. Finally, when two groups are assumed to be on the same side (e.g. fellow guild or party members). Let's say that you have two groups working for the same patron hanging out. One group are really bad guys, while the other group are good guys and don't know the other are bad guys. If out of nowhere, someone starts casting a spell, I'd stick with the two neutral parties rule. But let's say the wizard has been casting minor spells several times - making a light show, or using illusions to support the bard telling stories. If they suddenly cast an area control spell, and no one on the other side said anything like they were using arcana to discover the spell, I would allow the spell to go off before initiating combat. It would be spell, then roll initiative and start things. Since initiative had not been rolled, surprise doesn't matter. The sword had already let them know that there are other people around that could be a problem, so they can't be surprised, but they've allowed themselves at that point to relax and are not ready to jump into combat.
Is this RAW, or RAI? I don't know, and I really don't care. This is one of the things I have in my list of possible rulings so my players know this going in. They have used it themselves in the past - I had one group that was an entertainment troupe as a cover for their activities. They got a gig at a castle of a bad guy, and started a dance in plain view of everyone there. As most of the party sang and danced, the wizard was busy casting his spell - at the right moment, the dance choreography split to reveal him just as he finished the cast. The battle started after that spell took effect. I am in favor of my players coming up with plans like this, so I facilitate it.
I believe that I am not following RAW here. To answer your question, I think RAW is as soon as someone declares casting a spell, everyone roles initiative, and the spell happens when it would happen during the turn. No possibility of surprise, so the caster could be after everyone on the other side does their thing.

[KorvinStarmast]

I mean DM can decide to do anything. But by RAW the second the DM said he begins casting that’s when he should roll initiative.

With a weapon a warning it means your character would not get the surprise status even if he had no idea that it was going to happen. If your character wins initiative he can actually act before the enemy casts the spell. It's that last part that I sometimes have to think twice about.

Great question, nice answer, and I am glad to see the answers square with my own understanding on this. I am pretty sure that if I treat "surprised" as a condition, like the conditions in Appendix A, I'll be better off as a DM.

[Amnestic]

It's that last part that I sometimes have to think twice about.
.

If it helps frame it any better in your mind, imagine they've not actually begun casting the spell, they're just moving towards doing so - they slip towards a casting stance, their hand reaches for an arcane focus, maybe there's a slight perceptible shift of power as they begin to channel the magic.

The same sorta thing as drawing+brandishing your sword in preparation for making an attack, except for spellcasters.

[Segev]

While it can create oddities, yes, the rules definitely permit somebody who is not surprised to act before the instigator of the action. If you want narrative examples from fiction, think of times when somebody throws a knife seemingly at the protagonist, only for it to impale a snake to a wall, or the hand of a brigand about to stab him in the back, or the like. The knife-thrower was unsurprised and won initiative, so attacked the creature that triggered the initiative roll.

Where this gets a little odd is this: if your action was one that you change because the people who act before you made your chosen action (the one that you triggered initiative with) less of a good idea, what does THAT actually look like? Let's say you were going to draw a knife and attack somebody, but enough people took actions to make him a harder target (providing cover, moving him out of range, or what-have-you) that the attack would be pointless. Can you just decide not to even draw the knife and then chide people for having reacted so violently to you doing...nothing? Can you choose not to draw the knife and instead pull out and drink a potion of invisibility to try to slip away?

Fortunately, these are somewhat rare situations.

[PhoenixPhyre]

While it can create oddities, yes, the rules definitely permit somebody who is not surprised to act before the instigator of the action. If you want narrative examples from fiction, think of times when somebody throws a knife seemingly at the protagonist, only for it to impale a snake to a wall, or the hand of a brigand about to stab him in the back, or the like. The knife-thrower was unsurprised and won initiative, so attacked the creature that triggered the initiative roll.

Where this gets a little odd is this: if your action was one that you change because the people who act before you made your chosen action (the one that you triggered initiative with) less of a good idea, what does THAT actually look like? Let's say you were going to draw a knife and attack somebody, but enough people took actions to make him a harder target (providing cover, moving him out of range, or what-have-you) that the attack would be pointless. Can you just decide not to even draw the knife and then chide people for having reacted so violently to you doing...nothing? Can you choose not to draw the knife and instead pull out and drink a potion of invisibility to try to slip away?

Fortunately, these are somewhat rare situations.

I find the best answer to those is for the person involved (90% of the time the DM in my experience) to not change what he's doing, even if it's a wasted action. Everything's supposedly simultaneous, so you're already committed (at the fiction level, not the mechanical level) to that action. You might be able to switch targets, but you should still follow through IMO.

Or reframe the triggering action--in your example, the action you've committed to is drawing your knife. You're in the process of doing so, but don't complete the action until your turn. What you do with that knife now that it's drawn is up to you. But you really should at least draw the knife IMO.

Basically not meta-gaming (in the sense of using the game-level initiative order/turn-based resolution to influence what you're doing in a way that negatively impacts the fiction). I wouldn't chide a player for choosing differently, however. They have the right to do so, even if it makes the narrative a little squiggly.

[Segev]

I find the best answer to those is for the person involved (90% of the time the DM in my experience) to not change what he's doing, even if it's a wasted action. Everything's supposedly simultaneous, so you're already committed (at the fiction level, not the mechanical level) to that action. You might be able to switch targets, but you should still follow through IMO.

Or reframe the triggering action--in your example, the action you've committed to is drawing your knife. You're in the process of doing so, but don't complete the action until your turn. What you do with that knife now that it's drawn is up to you. But you really should at least draw the knife IMO.

Basically not meta-gaming (in the sense of using the game-level initiative order/turn-based resolution to influence what you're doing in a way that negatively impacts the fiction). I wouldn't chide a player for choosing differently, however. They have the right to do so, even if it makes the narrative a little squiggly.

The trouble with that is that it makes acting to trigger initiative a terrible idea of you’re not confident you can win initiative. It gives you the Surprise condition without even a perception check to try to avoid it.

Maybe the best move is to make it clear you started for your knife and it takes Deception to convince people that’s not what you were doing, after all.

[Keltest]

The trouble with that is that it makes acting to trigger initiative a terrible idea of you’re not confident you can win initiative. It gives you the Surprise condition without even a perception check to try to avoid it.

Maybe the best move is to make it clear you started for your knife and it takes Deception to convince people that’s not what you were doing, after all.

Presumably the person initiating the encounter will not be surprised by their own actions even if other people react to it.

[Darth Credence]

Presumably the person initiating the encounter will not be surprised by their own actions even if other people react to it.

I don't think Segev meant literally have the surprise condition, just the same result (I could be wrong, of course). Let's say everyone is 15 feet from each other. One person draws their sword, intending to attack one of the people. Initiative is rolled, and the sword drawer goes last. Everyone else backs up 30 feet and hits them with ranged attacks.

When it comes to the first person's turn, the draw their sword, which means they can't also ready a ranged weapon. With a normal movement, everyone is now out of range to move and attack, so they are not going to get an attack action in at all. You could still use dodge, which makes it better than being surprised, but it is certainly a case of where you don't get to attack the first round, and no die roll will change that (in most cases, there are clearly exceptions for certain classes).

As I would imagine it playing out, the only way I can see everyone else actually beating him is if they reacted as he touched his sword hilt. So I would go with they touch their hilt, everyone scatters, and instead they draw their bow so they don't lose that turn. This requires accepting that the way initiative works is going to lead to some wonkiness from time to time, and that's the price to pay.

[Keltest]

I don't think Segev meant literally have the surprise condition, just the same result (I could be wrong, of course). Let's say everyone is 15 feet from each other. One person draws their sword, intending to attack one of the people. Initiative is rolled, and the sword drawer goes last. Everyone else backs up 30 feet and hits them with ranged attacks.

When it comes to the first person's turn, the draw their sword, which means they can't also ready a ranged weapon. With a normal movement, everyone is now out of range to move and attack, so they are not going to get an attack action in at all. You could still use dodge, which makes it better than being surprised, but it is certainly a case of where you don't get to attack the first round, and no die roll will change that (in most cases, there are clearly exceptions for certain classes).

As I would imagine it playing out, the only way I can see everyone else actually beating him is if they reacted as he touched his sword hilt. So I would go with they touch their hilt, everyone scatters, and instead they draw their bow so they don't lose that turn. This requires accepting that the way initiative works is going to lead to some wonkiness from time to time, and that's the price to pay.

I mean, trying to do a surprise attack on somebody with a weapon of warning or some other feature that protects from surprise should be a risky move i think. Doubly so if youre slow on initiative. Certainly just attacking people who are otherwise not hostile without surprise is also a gamble if they all get initiative first. This seems like a feature, not a bug.

[Demonslayer666]

After the boss stops monologuing, it's normal initiative as he gets hostile. There would be no surprise, because they are obviously done talking and getting angry and taking action.

However, there could be exceptions. Innate casting has no components, so if he is deceptive enough, he could cast without being obvious - essentially a hidden attack. Being Alert or having a Weapon of Warning would let you act, but you would not know what is happening until it happens if you beat them on initiative. This lets you ready an action, dodge, move to cover, etc. Attacking would be a bit impulsive.

[JonBeowulf]

I don't think Segev meant literally have the surprise condition, just the same result (I could be wrong, of course). Let's say everyone is 15 feet from each other. One person draws their sword, intending to attack one of the people. Initiative is rolled, and the sword drawer goes last. Everyone else backs up 30 feet and hits them with ranged attacks.
<snip>


The way I'd handle this is to narrate that everyone saw the sword-drawer going for their sword, backed up, and drew their weapons. They get to feel awesome that they beat me to the punch and that NPC has permanently lost the trust of the party. Still a lot of RP to be had by all.

Of if it's a player action, allow them to back out of their declared action once they realize they lost initiative. Nobody dies, trust is lost, keep on RP'ing.

[Segev]

I don't think Segev meant literally have the surprise condition, just the same result (I could be wrong, of course). Let's say everyone is 15 feet from each other. One person draws their sword, intending to attack one of the people. Initiative is rolled, and the sword drawer goes last. Everyone else backs up 30 feet and hits them with ranged attacks.

When it comes to the first person's turn, the draw their sword, which means they can't also ready a ranged weapon. With a normal movement, everyone is now out of range to move and attack, so they are not going to get an attack action in at all. You could still use dodge, which makes it better than being surprised, but it is certainly a case of where you don't get to attack the first round, and no die roll will change that (in most cases, there are clearly exceptions for certain classes).You have pretty well captured what I was going for; thanks!


As I would imagine it playing out, the only way I can see everyone else actually beating him is if they reacted as he touched his sword hilt. So I would go with they touch their hilt, everyone scatters, and instead they draw their bow so they don't lose that turn. This requires accepting that the way initiative works is going to lead to some wonkiness from time to time, and that's the price to pay.Agreed; that seems a reasonable way to play it. Maybe, if he went to draw his sword but lost initiative that badly, he can make a Deception check to play at totally not having been doing that and everyone else overreacting.

[PhoenixPhyre]

You have pretty well captured what I was going for; thanks!

Agreed; that seems a reasonable way to play it. Maybe, if he went to draw his sword but lost initiative that badly, he can make a Deception check to play at totally not having been doing that and everyone else overreacting.

I can agree with that. That was (kinda) what I meant with "reframing the triggering action", but got lost in the weeds of the example and phrased it badly.

If you rephrase the trigger as "went to draw my knife", then you should follow through on starting that action. I'd even not worry about it from an action-economy standpoint, so if you lose initiative you could start to go for your knife, then realize that would be a bad idea and try to bluff it out. But you have to recognize that you've done something that triggered it, even if you're trying to convince everyone else that you didn't, really.

[Telok]

I've dealt with this in a different system where some creatures can't be surprised.

My solution is to not call for rolling initative, yet. Tell the people with the no-surprise ability that it triggers, describe the scene, answer questions, resolve the free action perception/scrutiny checks, and ask them what they're doing. Then we check initative, if we need to (that system some characters can end up 95% winning initative). If the no-surprise people act first then they take their declared actions based on the information they have. After that everything proceeds normally.

Works fine with pc & npcs, avoids silly retcons & forcing pcs to impossible actions, and I don't have to worry about weird timing or janky justifications.

[Segev]

I've dealt with this in a different system where some creatures can't be surprised.

My solution is to not call for rolling initative, yet. Tell the people with the no-surprise ability that it triggers, describe the scene, answer questions, resolve the free action perception/scrutiny checks, and ask them what they're doing. Then we check initative, if we need to (that system some characters can end up 95% winning initative). If the no-surprise people act first then they take their declared actions based on the information they have. After that everything proceeds normally.

Works fine with pc & npcs, avoids silly retcons & forcing pcs to impossible actions, and I don't have to worry about weird timing or janky justifications.

Doesn't solve things here, so much. The issue isn't with creatures that are surprised. It's that the default is that nobody is surprised. It takes one side being hidden such that some in the other side are unaware of them for there to be surprise at all.

[Mastikator]

It's that last part that I sometimes have to think twice about.

Great question, nice answer, and I am glad to see the answers square with my own understanding on this. I am pretty sure that if I treat "surprised" as a condition, like the conditions in Appendix A, I'll be better off as a DM.

This reminds me of one of those action movies where a bad guy jumps out of the shadows to attack the protagonist and the protagonist swiftly deals a killing blow before the bad guy is able to get off their attack. This is how I view it, if you can ignore surprise and get a better initiative then you can counter the ambush.

[Telok]

Doesn't solve things here, so much. The issue isn't with creatures that are surprised. It's that the default is that nobody is surprised. It takes one side being hidden such that some in the other side are unaware of them for there to be surprise at all.

It's the system I use when there is unexpected combat (or a car bomb or other trap going off). If everyone is already going for combat then you're just rolling initative.

The only time you have problems with this stuff is when you call for initative too early. Then you run into the retcons, impossible actions, and other weirdness. When everyone is already weapons out & wands waving it's just normal combat. When you use words like 'suddenly' or 'without warning' then you're in the possible surprise situation. If you're standing around talking and everone has sheathed weapons and suddenly someone whips out a dagger for a backstab or utters Power Word: Stun... that's a surprise situation. Then you only care who has a no-surprise trait or other early warning abilities. Don't call for initative and announce what will happen before it happens.

[Tanarii]

Just tell the player "okay, you go for your focus, roll initiative".

Of if it's an NPC or monster, "they go for their component pouch, roll initiative".

Players and DMs often want to skip the step of initiative by declaring an action, instead of a start of hostilities. That doesn't mean it should happen.

Even in a situation like a closed door with PCs about to charge in, the DM still gets to decide when initiative occurs and initial positioning. It could start with front liners already through the door, or it could start with them ready to go through with ranger attackers ready to blast through the door first. Positions can be determined by player and NPC intent, then roll initiative, then declare actions. Don't skip to "first person who declares an action gets a free action".

[PhoenixPhyre]

Don't skip to "first person who declares an action gets a free action".

Amen to this. That has all sorts of bad effects. As does the related "every declaration gets executed in series" policy I've seen, which means that if the rogue shouts "I steal all the loot before others can act", they do so and now everyone's angry. Or "I push the big red button" and everyone else goes "wait, no!" but the action's already in progress and a TPK results when the player wouldn't have done that if he wasn't misunderstanding something.

[Lunali]

Replace surprised with flatfooted. When initiative is rolled, everyone involved knows combat is happening. People that are caught flatfooted were not prepared for combat to be happening and so can't act in the first round of combat. If combat begins and one side is unaware of the other, but someone isn't surprised, they heard the combat music (or their senses told them something was wrong) and can take action, but they can't directly target the enemy until they figure out why they're uneasy.

[Samayu]

We were meeting with the local ruler, in his temple in the jungle. We weren't certain of his alliances, or our standing with him. Our sex-obsessed barbarian made it clear ahead of time that he wanted to kill the guy. The rest of us wanted to remain at peace with him and find out what he wanted. Standing in his temple, I made a greeting and immediately the barbarian's player said "I step forward, put my hands on my hips..." and he went on to describe the sex acts he was going to inflict on this ruler. The DM says "hold on, roll initiative." The barbarian rolled a 4, and we were able to neutralize him before he completed his speech. The player complained that none of this could have happened unless he said what he was going to say. We countered that we knew exactly what would happen if he was allowed to speak, so as soon as he opened his mouth, we knew we had to shut it.

[MaxWilson]

Just tell the player "okay, you go for your focus, roll initiative".

Of if it's an NPC or monster, "they go for their component pouch, roll initiative".

Players and DMs often want to skip the step of initiative by declaring an action, instead of a start of hostilities. That doesn't mean it should happen.

Not necessarily do they want to skip initiative--they may just not want to get skipped, if the DM has the villain cast a spell (or something) unchallenged. Don't tell me you've never seen a DM do it that way, even before 5E, and 5E's initiative system encourages that kind of thinking even more because declaring and doing happen simultaneously.

[Mastikator]

Not necessarily do they want to skip initiative--they may just not want to get skipped, if the DM has the villain cast a spell (or something) unchallenged. Don't tell me you've never seen a DM do it that way, even before 5E, and 5E's initiative system encourages that kind of thinking even more because declaring and doing happen simultaneously.

Player: "I attack the BBEG"
DM: "Roll initiative"
Player: "I rolled 12. Okay I rolled 21 on my attack, does it hit?"
DM: "The BBEG rolled 19, combat begins

As you reach for your weapon the BBEG quickly pulls out his wand and teleports away, your sword hits the air. If he had not teleported away you would've struck true"

As long as you let the dice decide I don't see a problem with this. In fact I think it's cool that the rules work this way. That is a cool action sequence, the rule of cool being aligned with RAW is a good thing.

[Tanarii]

I think MaxWilson means the DM is trying to shortcut an initiative roll. And yeah, totally happens. DMs are just as likely to fall into this trap as players. That's why my statement was "Players and DMs", not just "Players".

[greenstone]

My way of thinking is: Roll initiative when timing matters.

The foe is casting a spell and we need to determine whether the PC gets to act before or after the spell goes off?
--> Roll initiative.

The foe was in the middle of a conversation and gave no warning that they were about to do something hostile?
--> Roll initiative and apply surprise (possibly contesting the PCs WIS\Perception agains the foe's CHA\Deception).