What Feats/ACFs/PrCs are only worth it in Gestalt?

[A.A.King]

What feats, alternate class features and/or prestige classes do you feel are only worth in a gestalt game?

Of course what is or isn't "worth it" is purely subjective, but I am basically looking for cool things things that are too difficult to pull of in a normal game and/or would require too much sacrifice.

If we stay the core book for example, we have prestige classes like Dragon Disciple and Arcane Archer that have a prerequisite of being able to cast spells only to not give any spellcasting progression of their own. When you gestalt those classes with full spellcasting on the other side it becomes more worth it to take all 10 levels in those classes and not just dip in them. (Well, Arcane Archer anyway, there would probably still be better options than Dragon Disciple for a mage wanting to explore her dragon side).

Maybe my favourite example of this are the High One Warrior-Wizard substitution levels from Champions of Valor. Specifically the 5th level. A 5th level High One Warrior-Wizard can trade away his 5th level bonus feat for the ability to make his Paladin Special Mount also his familiar. There is no real way to take advantage of this idea in a regular build. However when you can do this as a 5th Level character who is Wizard 5 // Paladin 5 instead of a 10th level character who is Wizard 5 / Paladin 5 it has more potential.

So it's not so much about the best things you can do in gestalt, rather it is about things that you'd rather try to pull of in gestalt than you would in a regular game.

[Biffoniacus_Furiou]

Enlightened Spirit prestige class in CM. Taken normally it replaces your invocation selection with set in stone choices, and it doesn't even increase EB caster level. Taken as a gestalt class along side of Warlock, everything it grants stacks with what you get from Warlock as everything is different enough to not be an advancement of the same class features.

Pretty much any 5/10 or worse casting progression prestige classes, such as Metamind or Green Star Adept.

[liquidformat]

I really like the alternative class features that replace things like evasion and turn undead, which are found on multiple classes and PRC. I have been in a game before where I have had spell reflection, evasion, and invisible fist which adds a lot of versatility.

[Troacctid]

Green star adept comes to mind.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Void Disciple only seems worth it in Gestalt, using the other side to progress spellcasting in the many levels lost by Void Disciple.

[Gnaeus]

A lot of things that give stat bumps. Things like racial paragon levels, monster advancements, templates, or just PRCs that provide stat pluses.

[schreier]

Eldritch master truly shines in gestalt ... Increase effective CL, open up other class lists

[Buddy76]

Warshaper. The first 4 levels pop up in some builds, but level 5 is never taken. However, if you're gestalting with Druid on the other side, Multimorph means, for all practical purposes, unlimited wildshape, specially if you take the first level of Master of Many Forms.

[ezekielraiden]

Geomancer.

In an ordinary game, it's a poison pill: Theurge-type requirements, but only progressing one spellcasting class each level. Very flavorful and interesting, but mostly sucky.

In gestalt, it's viable to good depending on what you mix with it. I've done Druid+Wizard and looked into Sorcerer+Cleric, but I'm sure there are other interesting directions to take it. In theory, it even makes Arcane Heirophant that much more desirable, letting you pick up ~7 levels of wild shape-focused non-casting PrCs if they're of interest (MoMF comes to mind, but Nature's Warrior or Warshaper might be better).

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Hierophant. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) It's an almost direct translation of the archmage, except you don't gain any spellcasting progression! Who wouldn't want that, right?

...anyone? ...at all?

I feel so alone...

Oh, wait, no I don't, because hierophant sucks.

[ezekielraiden]

Hierophant. (https://www.d20srd.org/srd/prestigeClasses/hierophant.htm) It's an almost direct translation of the archmage, except you don't gain any spellcasting progression! Who wouldn't want that, right?

...anyone? ...at all?

I feel so alone...

Oh, wait, no I don't, because hierophant sucks.

Wow. I knew WotC had some wonky ideas, but....man, that really takes the cake. It's literally "Archmage, but worse." The only difference is that you don't burn spell slots....you just never get them in the first place. At least the Archmage is only burning (relatively) low-level slots...good Lord.

In gestalt I could see that Power of Nature benefit being pretty nice though. If it works as implied, that could make Planar Shepherd even more overpowered. Hand out efreet wild shape to all your friends, too!

[SaltyFiend]

If your doing something with Hellknights, both the Signifier & Hellknight classes are pretty good. Diabolist is also a really good one as well as Arclord of Nex. The problem ive always run into with PrC's at any rate is that they are neat concepts in theory, but taking away progression from a core feature thats dependant upon level kill them before they get to fly.

[Rebel7284]

Hierophant is definitely up there as is Eldritch Master both of which have been mentioned.

Other ideas:
- Master Transmogrifist: you do cool things with Polymorph but lose too many caster levels to ever get shapechange.... Gestalt fixes this
- Spellsword: Channeling spells is nice for action economy especially once you can do two spells at a time as the capstone. Of course, Spellsword loses too many caster levels to ever be more than a 1-level dip without gestalt.
- Arcane Duelist: Cool class features, but half BAB on a frontline fighter just doesn't fly. Especially with no spellcasting progression.
- Mindbender: If you want to focus on enchantment but don't want to lose 5 caster levels.

[Maat Mons]

The Armored Mage ACF for Fighter. With that and 8 levels of Fighter, you can ignore arcane spell failure chance from light armor for spells up to 9th level. But if you took 8 levels of Fighter in a non-gestalt game, you're not going to have 9th-level spells to use that feature on.

[Troacctid]

The Armored Mage ACF for Fighter. With that and 8 levels of Fighter, you can ignore arcane spell failure chance from light armor for spells up to 9th level. But if you took 8 levels of Fighter in a non-gestalt game, you're not going to have 9th-level spells to use that feature on.
Wouldn't you get them at ECL 25?

[JNAProductions]

Wouldn't you get them at ECL 25?

How many games get to 9th level spells even going pure Wizard? And how many would go eight levels beyond that?

[Empyreal Dragon]

Warhulk. Hands down one of my favorite martial classes, but in gestalt? That pain is a lot easier on the build

[Quertus]

What was that Psion prestige class that gave you "extra PSP"… but you actually got less, since you weren't advancing as a Psion?

That might actually have nonzero value in gestalt.

[Darg]

Tempest and Atavist are hard to justify without Gestalt. Tempest because of the high requirement for minimal payout and Atavist because it's one redeeming quality is only achievable after 9 levels of practical uselessness

Acolyte of the Skin is a 5/10 progression for lackluster benefits. At least Mindbender gives you world altering capabilities and abusable abilities in exchange.

Pyrokineticist is another one.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

What was that Psion prestige class that gave you "extra PSP"… but you actually got less, since you weren't advancing as a Psion?

That might actually have nonzero value in gestalt.Metamind. PF fixed it, but 3.5's version is terrible. Honestly, it's much easier to lose out on 3 MLs and get the capstone (the only worthwhile part of the class) via illithid savant, if you can.

[Darg]

Metamind. PF fixed it, but 3.5's version is terrible. Honestly, it's much easier to lose out on 3 MLs and get the capstone (the only worthwhile part of the class) via illithid savant, if you can.

Yep, Font of Power is awesome for one whole minute per day. Abusing quicken power once per round for absolutely free is awesome. I see that the PF version got rid of the free powers unfortunately. I like the PF fix for 7/10 progression and 10/10 for PP progression.

How does gestalt handle PP anyway? Do individual classes contribute to a total pool or is it the class of a given level with the most points to contribute?

[Troacctid]

How many games get to 9th level spells even going pure Wizard? And how many would go eight levels beyond that?
Campaigns end when campaigns end. Why is it weirder to assume a game will end at exactly level 30 than it is to assume a game will end at exactly level 20? In both cases, it's actually more likely that the campaign will end around level 12, and nobody gets 9ths.

[H_H_F_F]

Warhulk. Hands down one of my favorite martial classes, but in gestalt? That pain is a lot easier on the build

Warhulk is my pick for sure. People often neglect any gestalt suggestion that is purely martial, and of course the martial-spellcaster disparity woll always exist, but Christ is warhulk good on a gestalt mundane build. Getting full BAB, awesome tactical options, and 20 Str opens up a lot of possibilities which are usually rendered useless at high levels.

[Maat Mons]

I don't assume all games will end at exactly level 20. I just assume no game will ever go past level 20. My reason for assuming this is that I hate the Epic Level Handbook and I want to pretend it doesn't exist whenever possible. So let's all agree that progression ends at level 20, and there have never been any rules for going beyond that.

[Dunsparce]

I don't assume all games will end at exactly level 20. I just assume no game will ever go past level 20. My reason for assuming this is that I hate the Epic Level Handbook and I want to pretend it doesn't exist whenever possible. So let's all agree that progression ends at level 20, and there have never been any rules for going beyond that.

I've been in two campaigns that went into epic, and am in many others that plan to go into early epic. That's just the type of group I'm in.

[NigelWalmsley]

The Armored Mage ACF for Fighter. With that and 8 levels of Fighter, you can ignore arcane spell failure chance from light armor for spells up to 9th level. But if you took 8 levels of Fighter in a non-gestalt game, you're not going to have 9th-level spells to use that feature on.

Is that even "worth it" then? You could just get a Twilight Mithril Chain Shirt, which would have 0% ASF and would not require you to take eight levels of Fighter. It does something, but I don't know that I would call that "worth it". Honestly, I think that applies to a number of PrCs in this thread. Yeah, something like Geomancer is better in Gestalt, but even if you aren't losing any casting to take it, you are losing out on the opportunity to be an Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper because Gestalt doesn't get you any extra PrC levels.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Abusing quicken power once per round for absolutely free is awesome.I just take CPsi's Linked Power. In its own way, it's at least as good an effect as Quicken (easily better if you plan ahead and combine it with synchronicity, especially considering it can be used with powers with huge manifestation times, like psionic minor creation and psionic genesis, which Quicken can't do).

It just takes a bit more thought on how the pieces fit together.

And hey, if you really want to reduce the cost, take Metapower (Linked Power + synchronicity). That'll reduce the overall cost of the second power by 1, while giving you a free standard action. You just need to spend your focus -- and not even that, if you've got an ardent with the Dominant Ideal ACF.

[Mike Miller]

The Mystic PrC from the first 3.0 Dragon Magazine is only worth it in Gestalt.

[Buddy76]

Umbral Disciple is another prc that I want to try in gestalt. I think it's class features are all good or, at least, cool but it's a difficult prc to fit in a build. You can multiclass it with Monk but it doesn't advance any Monk class feature. It requires essentia, but doesn't advance Meldshaper Levels and it's own essentia pool is very small.

I always wanted to build something like Warblade 20//Rogue 1/Incarnate 5/ Umbral Disciple 10/ Incarnate 4

[vasilidor]

In the book Dragon there is a PRC that give stat boost, SLA's and a few other things like wings for flight. It may have already been mentioned by someone else. but it gives no increases to BA and the save increases are all suck. It would be nice to tac onto a fighter though for a low op gestalt game.

[noob]

Campaigns end when campaigns end. Why is it weirder to assume a game will end at exactly level 30 than it is to assume a game will end at exactly level 20? In both cases, it's actually more likely that the campaign will end around level 12, and nobody gets 9ths.

Except for retroactive early entry ur priest and other cheese like that.

[ezekielraiden]

Honestly, I think that applies to a number of PrCs in this thread. Yeah, something like Geomancer is better in Gestalt, but even if you aren't losing any casting to take it, you are losing out on the opportunity to be an Incantatrix or Dweomerkeeper because Gestalt doesn't get you any extra PrC levels.

As I understood it, this thread is for "what things are 'very awful do not touch' in normal play, but viable or even strong in gestalt?" Opportunity cost concerns should not be taken very seriously, IMO. Especially since that leads to runaway high-op comparisons until you're having the Wish and the Word simultaneously fuelling Pun-Pun. There's actual-infinity and nigh-infinite waiting out there if you're willing to torture the rules to a sufficient extent. Compared to that, ALL other things are children playing in the mud when they could be enjoying a vacation in Hawaii, to paraphrase an analogy from CS Lewis.

TL;DR: In 3.x, opportunity cost is "infinite" if you aren't taking the absolute most powerful options. So opportunity cost alone isn't a great argument for not talking about things that become actually viable in gestalt as opposed to rank garbage.

[vasilidor]

the monk becomes viable, if you go with cleric...
I think there is even a feat that gives you wisdom to attack somewhere.
for something I would enjoy...
Spell thief/sorcerer - nightmare spinner. it just sounds fun to me.

[ezekielraiden]

the monk becomes viable, if you go with cleric...
I think there is even a feat that gives you wisdom to attack somewhere.

Yeah, Monk in general is a lot more useful in gestalt, especially for Wis casters. Passive benefits are great when your base chassis is focused on active benefits.

[Prime32]

Factotum has a class feature which gives them extra standard actions. It's very powerful when gestalted with something that uses standard actions for most of its abilities - typically a wizard or warblade, since they're Int-based.

Gestalting together two psionic classes can be powerful, if you allow the PP progression of both classes to stack.
EDIT: Speaking of psionics, Dreamscarred Press has a lot of material which grants a "Collective" that lets you link together multiple characters and share effects between them. Most Collective-using classes and archetypes are full manifesters already, but some aren't, and could make interesting gestalt partners for wizard/cleric/etc.

[NigelWalmsley]

Factotum has a class feature which gives them extra standard actions. It's very powerful when gestalted with something that uses standard actions for most of its abilities - typically a wizard or warblade, since they're Int-based.

Factotum is probably the best example of this, TBH. In normal play, you kind of derp around trying to figure out how to turn a bunch of standard actions into winning fights, but in Gestalt you can use your giant pile of standards to nova off with your favorite ToB build every combat, which has very impressive results (you can do the same thing with casters, but in practice the higher resource burn rate isn't really worth it). Warlock and Binder are also potentially interesting choices for the build.


As I understood it, this thread is for "what things are 'very awful do not touch' in normal play, but viable or even strong in gestalt?" Opportunity cost concerns should not be taken very seriously, IMO. Especially since that leads to runaway high-op comparisons until you're having the Wish and the Word simultaneously fuelling Pun-Pun.

That's a false dichotomy. After all, it's not like more straightforward "is this good or not" analysis doesn't also lead in that direction, or like "very awful do not touch" isn't coming from a place of "compared to other options" which implies a fundamentally opportunity cost-based model. Having some standard of efficiency and expecting things to measure up to it doesn't mean that efficiency is the only thing you care about.

[A.A.King]

Personally I find Geomancer a great example of what I was looking for. It may still not be the strongest option you have, but the fact that it has theurge-like requirements without being a theurge class means I constantly forget it exist. In gestalt however it is something you could turn into viable centerpiece for a character.

There are a lot of great suggestioms in this thread though. I can't believe that when I was going over the core prestige classes in my mind to look for examples I forgot about the Hierophant. Another class with entry requirements so different to what ot does that it is pretty much never worth considering (and certainly not for all 5 levels in a real game).

[Maat Mons]

I was going to look through here (https://web.archive.org/web/20191022013204/http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prestige_classes) for some good ideas to suggest. But it turns out Wikipedia took that page down, and by the time I tracked it down in Wayback, it was time to go eat. Bye.

[ezekielraiden]

Factotum is probably the best example of this, TBH. In normal play, you kind of derp around trying to figure out how to turn a bunch of standard actions into winning fights, but in Gestalt you can use your giant pile of standards to nova off with your favorite ToB build every combat, which has very impressive results (you can do the same thing with casters, but in practice the higher resource burn rate isn't really worth it). Warlock and Binder are also potentially interesting choices for the build.



That's a false dichotomy. After all, it's not like more straightforward "is this good or not" analysis doesn't also lead in that direction, or like "very awful do not touch" isn't coming from a place of "compared to other options" which implies a fundamentally opportunity cost-based model. Having some standard of efficiency and expecting things to measure up to it doesn't mean that efficiency is the only thing you care about.

When you immediately leap to treating Incantatrix and Dweomerkeeper as the standard for "missed opportunities," what am I supposed to think? You pretty clearly were saying that if you don't take the absolute most powerful options available, you're missing out. I fully recognize that there is a spectrum, but I'm not the one who pushed it to "be insanely OP or go home" territory.


Personally I find Geomancer a great example of what I was looking for. It may still not be the strongest option you have, but the fact that it has theurge-like requirements without being a theurge class means I constantly forget it exist. In gestalt however it is something you could turn into viable centerpiece for a character.

There are a lot of great suggestioms in this thread though. I can't believe that when I was going over the core prestige classes in my mind to look for examples I forgot about the Hierophant. Another class with entry requirements so different to what ot does that it is pretty much never worth considering (and certainly not for all 5 levels in a real game).

Honestly, I forgot about Heirophant too, which is pretty hilarious since I have a character that uses Archmage, the non-crappy arcane equivalent.

But yes! I actually did the very thing you speak of for an epic Pathfinder/3.x hybrid game. Character was an Int-SAD Druid/Wizard (and we were allowed to take 2 PrCs at the same time, just not two theurge-style double progression PrCs together). Ended up being...
Druid (Menhir) 10/Planar Shepherd 10/High Proselytizer 1
Wizard (Exploiter) 5/Geomancer 10/Archmage 5/Cosmic Descryer 1

I called it "dragon space pope."

[Prime32]

Master of Masks is a bit more interesting when you don't have to deal with the weak chassis. Also Dragon Descendant, which has a similar "mode-switching" mechanic.

Similarly the Stalwart Sorcerer ACF that gets +3 HP/level, when gestalted with something that has Hit Dice larger than d4.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Yeah, Monk in general is a lot more useful in gestalt, especially for Wis casters. Passive benefits are great when your base chassis is focused on active benefits.Meh. It's still not worth more than 2 levels for the primary class, and 6-7 with heavily optimized ACFs in the mix. At that point you're better off just dipping and continuing with something else. Even with Tippy Monks vs Elder Evils (https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?285801-Tippy-s-Terrifically-Terrible-Trial) the builds would've been vastly better off just dipping monk and going on their way. Sure, the monks can possibly 1-v-1 the entire book, but levels in expert would've done just as well after the first few levels.