Abusing Abilities for Non-Combat Victory

[MR_Anderson]

I recently was reviewing some classes and realized that it could be possible to be victorious over an enemy through certain Class Abilities, which brings me to the main question...

What abilities through a class or a feat allow you to overcome you opponent without combat attacks (even special attacks) or through spells (like dominate)?

As an examples,

Emissary of Barachiel has the Calling/Conversion ability that with the right build can be interesting to make sure all you come across would become Good.

Evangelist have the Convert the Unfaithful ability which is similar to the Emissary, but more direct to a certain alignment.

Many Classes receive Turning Undead.


What others do you know?


Ability List:

3e/3.5e

Emissary of Barachiel - Calling/Conversion ability
Evangelist have the Convert the Unfaithful ability
Turn Undead ability
Druid/Ranger - Wild Empathy ability
Diplomacy
Bluff with Glibness


D20

Thief - Capstone class ability for Bluff
Ruthless Agent Investigator - 11th Level Geas Ability (Pathfinder)

[Doctor Despair]

Diplomacy optimization is the classic one. On that note, Wild Empathy

[Particle_Man]

The capstone class ability of a thief in Iron Heroes lets you automatically succeed on a bluff check for one round, which is enough to get the enemy to hand you a victory if you are creative enough and the circumstances allow. It basically is how Bugs Bunny messes with most of his opponents.

[MR_Anderson]

Diplomacy optimization is the classic one. On that note, Wild Empathy
Diplomacy is actually how I found Emissary & Evangelist, I really like the skill, and it was the reason I started this thread to find abilities that would allow a similar effect to that skill.

I had a character that had an unreasonably high Diplomacy and the DM didn’t like it, which didn’t bother me, but the other players got tired of less combat encounters, so I saved it for times really needed to save the party, or when it served to further the adventure. Basically he was a character that couldn’t be touched, and could talk his way out of anything that might be able to kill him. He also wasn’t really an offensive out put so the DM kind of overlooked his invincibility.


The capstone class ability of a thief in Iron Heroes lets you automatically succeed on a bluff check for one round, which is enough to get the enemy to hand you a victory if you are creative enough and the circumstances allow. It basically is how Bugs Bunny messes with most of his opponents.
This is funny, thank you for posting.

[Doctor Despair]

If you like the Evangelist ability, also note:

* It is not mind-affecting.

* It is not language-dependent; you may use pantomimes.

* Although there are provisions for what happens when the duration ends, there is actually no listed duration, so it technically lasts forever.

It is a very poorly-worded ability, to be sure, that ends up inordinately more powerful if your DM doesn't nerf it with a house rule.

[Troacctid]

Sounds like you're looking for the Cards Over Swords feat, which allows you to resolve combats by challenging your enemies to a card game.

[TalonOfAnathrax]

Stealth, I suppose? If they never know you're there, you can get the loot/access without ever being detected and grab XP at the same time.

[weckar]

Sounds like you're looking for the Cards Over Swords feat, which allows you to resolve combats by challenging your enemies to a card game.

This is fairly amazing, actually... Though it is bound to get some books thrown at you.

[Gruftzwerg]

Vow of Peace (feat)
+
Apostle of Peace (prc)

[Kaleph]

The glibness spell ain't an auto-success on a bluff check, but comes very close.

[Rynjin]

For Pathfinder, there's the bonkers 11th level ability of the Ruthless Agent Investigator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/ruthless-agent-investigator-archetype) that lets you Geas somebody once per day as a Full Round action.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Thrallherd can enslave you if you happen to be susceptible to his ability to enthrall random people. Also, hostages.


Sounds like you're looking for the Cards Over Swords feat, which allows you to resolve combats by challenging your enemies to a card game.Doesn't always work, however. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Y0VqeKxyg)

[MR_Anderson]

Sounds like you're looking for the Cards Over Swords feat, which allows you to resolve combats by challenging your enemies to a card game.

I can not find this.


Stealth, I suppose? If they never know you're there, you can get the loot/access without ever being detected and grab XP at the same time.

I guess, but then there is always simple detection spells, then non detection counters. Just because there are so many ways to stealth and so many ways to prevent it, I will leave it off the list, unless someone can provide a detailed thread discussing this topic, then I will link it.


This is fairly amazing, actually... Though it is bound to get some books thrown at you.

Cards Over Swords feat, was unable to be found by my searches, can you help?


Vow of Peace (feat)
+
Apostle of Peace (prc)

I don’t see how this works and is a victory condition, can you explain please?


The glibness spell ain't an auto-success on a bluff check, but comes very close.

I really like Glibness, and have wanted to base a character around it.


For Pathfinder, there's the bonkers 11th level ability of the Ruthless Agent Investigator (https://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/hybrid-classes/investigator/archetypes/paizo-investigator-archetypes/ruthless-agent-investigator-archetype) that lets you Geas somebody once per day as a Full Round action.

Wasn’t looking for Pathfinder myself, but I will track it. I will assume you are correct on this, as I do not know pathfinder.


Thrallherd can enslave you if you happen to be susceptible to his ability to enthrall random people. Also, hostages.

Doesn't always work, however. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2Y0VqeKxyg)

This is a non targeting ability, and while I believe that it could absolutely be used for victory, the thralls would have the fight. As a DM, I would never allow someone to gain control of a key enemy or an enemy to take a player in this way.

Your point is absolutely valid, and while I thank you very much for bringing this idea I don’t think it should be on the list, unless you can give me a reason I am missing how to abuse this for non-combat victory.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

This is a non targeting ability, and while I believe that it could absolutely be used for victory, the thralls would have the fight. As a DM, I would never allow someone to gain control of a key enemy or an enemy to take a player in this way.

Your point is absolutely valid, and while I thank you very much for bringing this idea I don’t think it should be on the list, unless you can give me a reason I am missing how to abuse this for non-combat victory.Well, thrallherd does allow you to choose the race, class, and certain other details for your thralls. So if the one you're going up against is fairly unique, and is of the right level to be a minion, just specify the same class and race, and...

[Thurbane]

Cards Over Swords feat, was unable to be found by my searches, can you help?

It was on the WotC website as a Web Enhancmenet for Three Dragon Ante.

More info here: https://forums.giantitp.com/showthread.php?501738-Optimize-this-Feat-13-Cards-over-Swords-from-Three-Dragon-Ante-web-supplement

And here's my winning IC entry that focused on it: https://forums.giantitp.com/showsinglepost.php?p=24781459&postcount=61

[Feldar]

Any feat or race that lets you select charm person as a spell-like ability.

[daremetoidareyo]

Swashbuckler 4 dead level: seduce to learn secret

[Gruftzwerg]

@MR_Andersom
Explanation:

Vow of Peace:
1. You are Constantly affected by a Calm Emotion aura.
2. Manufactured Weapon you try to attack you must make a save roll first or shatter on your skin, leaving no effect.

Apostle of Peace:
Requires the Vow of Peace feat, so the effects are included in this prc.
At lvl 2 an AoP gets Pacifying Touch. At will ability, no save nor SR, touch a creature to apply a similar effect to calm emotions (similar is not the same, and as such stacks with the aura).

You clear all desire to fight. What else you can want to win without fighting.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

@MR_Andersom
Explanation:

Vow of Peace:
1. You are Constantly affected by a Calm Emotion aura.
2. Manufactured Weapon you try to attack you must make a save roll first or shatter on your skin, leaving no effect.

Apostle of Peace:
Requires the Vow of Peace feat, so the effects are included in this prc.
At lvl 2 an AoP gets Pacifying Touch. At will ability, no save nor SR, touch a creature to apply a similar effect to calm emotions (similar is not the same, and as such stacks with the aura).

You clear all desire to fight. What else you can want to win without fighting."I might not be angry at you, but you've been getting in my way and keep mind-raping me, and for that you should die."

[Gruftzwerg]

"I might not be angry at you, but you've been getting in my way and keep mind-raping me, and for that you should die."

Nope you don't:

Creatures so affected cannot take violent actions (although they can defend themselves) or do anything destructive.
Calm Emotions forbids any violent or destructive "actions". As such, even if you argue that you have the "calm desire to kill me", you may not take any "action" in doing so. Not even the "action" of commanding others to kill.

edit: you can still outplay an apostle of peace (depends on his build, but we only assume a generic build here). Don't get in range and attack with a spell from distance.
Imho it is still a good tool for builds who want to prevent combat as much as they can.

[MaxiDuRaritry]

Nope you don't:

Calm Emotions forbids any violent or destructive "actions". As such, even if you argue that you have the "calm desire to kill me", you may not take any "action" in doing so. Not even the "action" of commanding others to kill.

edit: you can still outplay an apostle of peace (depends on his build, but we only assume a generic build here). Don't get in range and attack with a spell from distance.
Imho it is still a good tool for builds who want to prevent combat as much as they can."It's a mercy killing. It's a kindness, really."

[Gruftzwerg]

"It's a mercy killing. It's a kindness, really."

lol^^ nice try :smallbiggrin:

edit: I know, apostle is hated. Because no other character build likes to have you on his team. I never played one either^^